Discussion thread for proposed karma changes.

[Hauwke]

You have to understand that staff has revealed that few people actually have any large amount of Karma under the current system.

[Molten Heart]

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[Harmless]

I like the more recent times, but still feel 30 days is a long time to wait. I just don't know why level 1 karma roles should be so rare that you have to wait a full 30 days before rerolling one, potentially. The level 2 karma roles are a whole different scale, obviously -- half-giants and so on -- that I definitely concur with around a month or so there. It's weird -- it seems like such arbitrary time limits don't make sense. I wish there was some way for that to be more flexible. Maybe something that can allow us to make karma regenerate faster if we wanted it for some reason like wanting to join family role that requires karma, for example.

[Fathi]

Here is some of the data we are looking at, compiled from the last three months of new characters.

Karma	OLD	NEW
0	70%	70%
1	25%	14%
2	4%	15%
3	1%	1%

The OLD column represent the current karma option levels, translated into the new karma range using criteria points in the announcement.  The NEW column is those same characters, using the new karma scale options.

As a note, just 15 accounts are responsible for creating 40.9% of characters utilizing karma in this time frame.  In terms of total population, that is 12.3% of the total population of characters, if you want to compare to the chart above.

One thing to take away from this is that 70% of characters being rolled are 0 karma characters and staff apparently still think that number is too small? That's intriguing to me. Have you guys discussed what an ideal percentage of 0-karma characters is, if 70% isn't enough?

Bearing in mind of course that of the other 30% not all are mages--this 30% includes extended subguilds, desert elves, etc. I'm really curious what staff think an "ideal" spread would look like.

[John]

One thing to take away from this is that 70% of characters being rolled are 0 karma characters and staff apparently still think that number is too small?

Saying that 70% of characters made in the last three months isn't the same thing as saying that 70% of living and active characters at the moment are level 0 characters.

New players go through a character every couple of days. People with karma will typically live longer than new players, and as such a good portion of karma characters will quite possibly have been made more than 3 months ago.

It's an interesting statistic, but it isn't telling us how many characters in the game at any given moment have karma vs don't have karma.

[FantasyWriter]

Don't forget that some of those 2/3 karma roles are D-elves and HGs, not gicks and extended subs.
These are not "unbalanced" roles but roles that require a certain level of game knowledge, experience, and trust to play the races properly.

[Armaddict]

...I really see no reason why 30 days is too long, considering that it wasn't until very recently that it was anything other than this way (Extended subguilds required an app, and you couldn't special app anything within 30 days of each other).

Again, treating extended subs or magicker subguilds as an absolute necessity to having a character be 'worth it' is the wrong way to be looking at it.  Mostly because it's entirely untrue.  This was one of the concerns voiced at the announcement of extended subguilds, was that they were so much better than the 'normal' subguilds and it they would make those worthless.  They talked about limiting them.  Because this mentality isn't a healthy one, where that's your new normal.

In the case of two karma options on there, that means you can run 2 1 karma characters every 2 and a half months or one 2 karma...which really isn't bad.  Not at all.

[Lizzie]

...I really see no reason why 30 days is too long, considering that it wasn't until very recently that it was anything other than this way (Extended subguilds required an app, and you couldn't special app anything within 30 days of each other).

Again, treating extended subs or magicker subguilds as an absolute necessity to having a character be 'worth it' is the wrong way to be looking at it.  Mostly because it's entirely untrue.  This was one of the concerns voiced at the announcement of extended subguilds, was that they were so much better than the 'normal' subguilds and it they would make those worthless.  They talked about limiting them.  Because this mentality isn't a healthy one, where that's your new normal.

In the case of two karma options on there, that means you can run 2 1 karma characters every 2 and a half months or one 2 karma...which really isn't bad.  Not at all.

I -think- you're not understanding the regen process (either that or many of the rest of us are not understanding it). Using examples:

Your player account has only 1 point of karma.
You use that point. You have to wait 30 days to get it back. That's great, fine.

Your player account has two points of karma.
You use them to create a 2-karma character.

You now have to wait 60 days before you can create another 2-karma character, plus 30 days before you can play a 1-point character.

Your account has 3 points of karma.
You use them to create a 3-karma character.

You have to wait 30 days to play a 1-point character, plus 60 days to play a 2-point character, plus 90 days to play a three point character, once that 3-point character has been approved and you've logged into the game.

So you're not waiting 30 days to play a 3-karma character. You're only waiting that long to play a 1-karma character. It's 2 months for a 2-karma character and 3 months for a 3-karma character. AND....if you decide after you've earned back your second point of karma (after 60 days) that you want to play a 1-karma character again, you have to wait ANOTHER 30 days before you can play that 3-karma character - thus making it now 120 days total.

[LucildaHunta]

Throwing my vote in for 30 days being more than enough for karma regen. Generous even. I get that sometimes, you choose a role and it doesn't work out the way you thought. But really, I think that's a discussion you can have with staff. Roll it out and see how it works out. I don't see that many people burning through characters at a rate where it would be that much of an issue.

[Brokkr]

That data is presented in terms of new characters because that is the point at which karma gates things.  Beyond that it depends on the individual play of the characters as to what the overall population dynamic will be, and thus a much fuzzier thing to analyze.

Some more data for you.

There were a total of 764 characters started over the 3 month period, on 388 accounts.  That is just shy of 2 characters per account.  Of those, 282 accounts started only one character.

There were 13 accounts that started 10 or more characters accounting for 153 of them, or 20% of the total.  Of those, nine accounts do not have any karma.  For characters created on the remaining 4 accounts that do have karma, only two of those characters did not utilize karma.  Those two characters were on the same account.

[Miradus]

I'm okay with a flat 30 per point. Even more so if I can get a refund if I don't make it to 1 day played.

I'm going to throw this out there ... I'm not looking for sympathy or nothing. (My father always said if you're looking for sympathy then it's between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.)

But I'm not fully sighted. I've got some vision issues and sometimes I don't see the carru walk in the room when I'm at my size 24 font, or the dujat, or the kryl. At about 2 days played, hey, it's no issue because you can survive long enough to notice something happening. And the "1 hour free death" just never matters. It takes me that long to look at my stats, grab some equipment, and get out the gate into the wilderness.

[Armaddict]

I understood that.  That was what I was outlining, though mine was specifically geared towards people with 3 karma playing 1 and 2 karma point roles.

Essentially, at maximum, you're at one full-karma character every 4 months.  For those of us who tend to just play extended subguilds on mundanes, you're looking at a maximum of two and a half months between them.  That's fine and dandy with me, and if that means that I quickly die, I'll have to use normal subguilds, which is also fine by me.

But that's what I mean, is that the holdup here appears to be the lack of ability to quickly go through one after the other after the other, which is the expressed purpose of what they're doing, I believe, and something that will likely make characters more varied rather than less in game.

Edit:  Totally in acknowledgement that this is okay with me personally and may not be for others.  But I do think we should give this present form a shot, agreeing that the 'But I can't play one after the other after the other' isn't valid, since that's kind of the point.  HOWEVER, should also be tried out with an acknowledgement from staff side that it will likely be imperfect and that criticism of it should be expected rather than shut down, as has happened with other 'trial runs' we've done in the past in most renditions of staff.

[lostinspace]

It seems like staff have good numbers for character creation, can we use those to calculate average player lifetime? I'm honestly just curious at this point, because the numbers I've been seeing were way outside of what I expected.

But that's what I mean, is that the holdup here appears to be the lack of ability to quickly go through one after the other after the other, which is the expressed purpose of what they're doing, I believe, and something that will likely make characters more varied rather than less in game.

Shouldn't we wait to worry about variety until the huge class rework comes through? Also I see no way that restricting options over time would result in more varied characters, am I missing something?

[Armaddict]

Shouldn't we wait to worry about variety until the huge class rework comes through? Also I see no way that restricting options over time would result in more varied characters, am I missing something?

Er.  In my head, it means that if someone uses their karma and dies before it regenerates, they may have to make a character that isn't exactly what they want at the time and watch it grow.  Again, this is kind of more along the lines of extended subguilds and karma subguilds than main classes.

If anyone does the 'I can't play an aggressor/hardcore mage for another month, so I just won't play', it will be disappointing to me. :/

[Adhira]

To clarify and in semi-response to Armaddict.

We are fully in agreement that this system is going to be imperfect.  We expect that we will need to adjust, tweak and refactor the code, the structure and some of our goals surrounding this system as we get more information.  Part of that is this discussion thread, we've made some changes based on some of the points raised here already.  We do have some goals in mind, we have some thoughts on how this will work based on data we've seen. We will only be able to tell if this is achieving those goals once we've launched it. 

[BadSkeelz]

If anyone does the 'I can't play an aggressor/hardcore mage for another month, so I just won't play', it will be disappointing to me. :/

If I can't play what I want to play that I have karma for, because of some sort of arbitrary timer, I won't play. Get off your high horse.

Just to refresh my memory, are the karma costs of races and subguilds cumulative? i.e. is a "Desert Elf Outdoorsman" 3 karma (1+2) or 2 karma?

[Armaddict]

...it's not a high horse, it's an acknowledgement that there's a lot of different things to play that are all enjoyable.

[BadSkeelz]

Maybe for you. Other people have narrower interests. (fortunately mine all tend to run in the 0-1 karma scheme) If it's a question of "letting people play what they want" and "people not playing" I'd rather the former be chosen.

[Zenith]

I have two questions. I've skimmed this thread (particularly the staff posts) for answers, but haven't seen them addressed. I do apologize if I have simply missed it.

1. What is the purpose of the two different karma scales?

In the staff post you talk about moving to a 0-1-2-3 karma scale based mostly on time allowing only one karma review a year. However, in the same staff post you also discuss that you will still be able to accrue points in karma categories (roleplay, leadership, longevity).

How will these two systems work hand in hand, and will points in the karma categories be given outside of karma review time? Will category points only be given at karma review time and you need to have enough in order to move up a karma level as well as having the necessary longevity to have achieved your next desired point?

2. What will constitute a Special Application?

If I want permission for a special role (not a rolecall), but not guild/subguild I don't have karma access to, does that use my one spec app a year? Such as... what if I want to play a literate commoner. Or an unusual type of crafter and want to request support for non-standard mastercrafts (this one is on my list of things I'd like to do in the future, so I'm not going to be more specific). Do family roles count as spec apps?

There's a decent chance that I haven't paid close attention to spec app changes, but limiting it to one spec app a year seems challenging if it means everything beyond just a single-role karma boost.

Aside from those questions I like the new system. I like it better with the staff-proposed changes to karma regeneration. I do worry that the minimum timeframe of a year to earn karma 2, and then karma 3, is on the longer side. But it's probably not that big of an issue in practice and I can understand why you would want to block some roles with amount of time spent as an active player.

[Nathvaan]

Just to refresh my memory, are the karma costs of races and subguilds cumulative? i.e. is a "Desert Elf Outdoorsman" 3 karma (1+2) or 2 karma?

It is not cumulative.

[sleepyhead]

I think allowing one special app every 6 months would be reasonable. You could choose to use it to bypass your karma regen once, but then you'd be giving up the opportunity to use it for something rarer. This measure wouldn't make psionicists or sorcerers more common, because they'd still be capped. It'd be nice because if you feel the desire to play a karma-required family role or something like that but you recently spent karma, you could blow your spec app on it without feeling like you absolutely have to save it because it's the only one you'll get all year.

This solution would probably make people who think the karma regen is too slow feel a little better, but I don't think it'd upset the balance too much.

[BadSkeelz]

I think allowing one special app every 6 months would be reasonable. You could choose to use it to bypass your karma regen once, but then you'd be giving up the opportunity to use it for something rarer. This measure wouldn't make psionicists or sorcerers more common, because they'd still be capped. It'd be nice because if you feel the desire to play a karma-required family role or something like that but you recently spent karma, you could blow your spec app on it without feeling like you absolutely have to save it because it's the only one you'll get all year.

This solution would probably make people who think the karma regen is too slow feel a little better, but I don't think it'd upset the balance too much.

It would also make the "one special app per year" rule less punitive to people who are rarely-if-ever going to spec-app a sorcerer or psion. As I currently understand the proposed rules, we would only be able to ask for an extra language, or a skill swap, once per year now.

Just to refresh my memory, are the karma costs of races and subguilds cumulative? i.e. is a "Desert Elf Outdoorsman" 3 karma (1+2) or 2 karma?

It is not cumulative.

Thank you.

[valeria]

I still haven't heard anything staff-wise about a psion/sorc interest list. I think having to spec app, and then wait a little while if denied due to having too many in game only to app again later, and then having to app again later, would be highly demoralizing.

I mean, I've had 8 karma for how long now and never played either, so maybe that's a minor concern. But I feel that having a list would be more fair than having to be in the right place, at the right time.

[Nathvaan]

1. What is the purpose of the two different karma scales?

In the staff post you talk about moving to a 0-1-2-3 karma scale based mostly on time allowing only one karma review a year. However, in the same staff post you also discuss that you will still be able to accrue points in karma categories (roleplay, leadership, longevity).

I am not sure what you mean by the two different scales.  There is a current scale (0-8) and a proposed scale (0-3).  I think we have defined the purpose fairly plainly.  Basically to make higher karma roles take less time to reach, making max karma more of the norm and less of an exception while still making sure high karma roles are rarer than lower karma options.

As for the categories, think of those as categories used to as guidelines on what to do to earn karma.  There are many options for gaining karma but you will only be able to gain one point for each category to a max of three.

How will these two systems work hand in hand, and will points in the karma categories be given outside of karma review time? Will category points only be given at karma review time and you need to have enough in order to move up a karma level as well as having the necessary longevity to have achieved your next desired point?

I also think this was explained pretty clearly in the original post.  There is a possibility for karma being granted outside of the normal schedule for outstanding roleplay but that is no different than it is now.  We can and do reward karma to those doing a good job.

2. What will constitute a Special Application?

If I want permission for a special role (not a rolecall), but not guild/subguild I don't have karma access to, does that use my one spec app a year? Such as... what if I want to play a literate commoner. Or an unusual type of crafter and want to request support for non-standard mastercrafts (this one is on my list of things I'd like to do in the future, so I'm not going to be more specific). Do family roles count as spec apps?

What a special application entails hasn't changed at all with this proposed change.  Please feel free to look at the help file to refresh yourself.  Also, neither has anything to do with the family roles which also has a very inclusive help file.  Anything that is a special app will be once per calendar year.

Not sure how helpful that answer was, but hopefully it addressed some of your questions!

[BadSkeelz]

Could we get some more elaboration on why Staff feel the need to change the special application limit for "three special applications per year, at most one per month" to just one per year? It seems pretty drastic and punitive towards those players who don't use their special applications for high karma "overpowered" roles.

Current special applications help file, for reference

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications

Players may submit up to three special applications per year, at most one per month. A special application allows players to request to play a character that is beyond what the normal application process would provide for. This might be any number of things. For karma guilds, this means that a player may apply for a role up to three karma points higher than their current karma level.

We are also currently testing out extended subguilds and skill increases using the same process for special applications. See the helpfiles on both of these subjects for details.

All Special Applications should be submitted through the Request Tool.