Discussion thread for proposed karma changes.

[ArmageddonMUD]

Please discuss this announcement!

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.0.html

[Jihelu]

If there are 3 psions and 3 sorcerers would you lose a spec app to ask about making one or do you send in a rollapplication asking about it before hand?


Losing a spec app because you bothered to want to be a psion or sorcerer seems very shitty, if thats how it is.

[Miradus]

I dislike the spend and regenerate aspect. If I earned two karma points then let me spend two karma points on each character. The world does not suffer if there's two protectors or outdoorsmen out there.

If it's a matter of mages being too frequent, put them on a whole separate system. Like mundane karma classes don't spend but mages do.

It's a livable system, I suppose, but I die frequently enough that I can see I'm going to spend a lot of time at 0 or 1 karma. Dying is going to feel like a punishment now, which is just going to screw over those like me who are on the explorer/achieve side of the Bartle chart.

ETA:

I'd like to add that maybe you could mitigate the pain of that by a karma refund for storage or adding in more rerolls per character.

[Lizzie]

Obligatory and usual tirade re: returning full-guild sorcerers and/or returning nilazis back to the game as a special app only as long as you already have the 3 karma points.

Other than that, I like the karma change ideas!

Question though: For people who already had several points of karma, will they now all revert to 0 and have to earn their way back up again? Or will it depend on what they're currently playing?

In other words - let's say (for example) I have 7 karma in the current system. In the new iteration that'd mean I'd have 3 karma. Let's say I"m currently playing a mundane, no extended subguilds or skill bumps. Just a merchant/thug (is that still even a thing?). If this change became effective tomorrow, would that mean I really do have the full 3 karma? Or is everyone starting tomorrow at 0 (theoretically, if the change became effective tomorrow)?

[Nathvaan]

If there are 3 psions and 3 sorcerers would you lose a spec app to ask about making one or do you send in a rollapplication asking about it before hand?


Losing a spec app because you bothered to want to be a psion or sorcerer seems very shitty, if thats how it is.

In NO way do we want this to feel punitive.  The way we will likely approach this is that denied special apps will no longer 'count' against the allowed special apps.  If there are abuses of too many special apps attempts on one account that can be addressed on an individual basis.

[Jihelu]

"Special App only:  Psionicist and Sorcerer
Special apps will be limited to one per player, per year. If the special application character dies within one week of creation the special application slot will be refunded."

Are psion and sorcerer spec apps limited to one per year?

Are all spec apps limited to once per year?


Does a regular spec app get refunded if you die within a week?

[Nathvaan]

Question though: For people who already had several points of karma, will they now all revert to 0 and have to earn their way back up again? Or will it depend on what they're currently playing?

In other words - let's say (for example) I have 7 karma in the current system. In the new iteration that'd mean I'd have 3 karma. Let's say I"m currently playing a mundane, no extended subguilds or skill bumps. Just a merchant/thug (is that still even a thing?). If this change became effective tomorrow, would that mean I really do have the full 3 karma? Or is everyone starting tomorrow at 0 (theoretically, if the change became effective tomorrow)?

The scale in the post shows how it will be converted.  When the conversion happens everyone will start out at the highest karma for both maximum and current.  Meaning in this instance 7 previous means you have 3 max and 3 usable right away.  I think that answers the question?  Hope so!

[Lizzie]

Thanks Nathvaan, it definitely answers the question!

A suggestion - based on the discord conversation going on (the screen scroll is too fast for me to keep up!):

Allow a "reset" of karma if you play a karma-required role, even a sponsored role, if the character dies within a RL week. So if you used 3 karma and now have 0 karma, but your krathi-enforcer/master-whateverthehell dies 5 days from now, you get your 3 karma back right away. After 7 days - you're in it to win it.

[Nathvaan]

Are psion and sorcerer spec apps limited to one per year?

Assuming I understand the question, once per year per account, yes.  That is the intent.

Are all spec apps limited to once per year?

Again, yes the intent is to make special apps special but be forgiving when it comes to losing one early to a rabid gortok (within a week).

Does a regular spec app get refunded if you die within a week?

Good question!  This is why we want feedback.  We will have to decide the specifics but I think we would lean toward refunding the spent karma if we refund the special application slot, generally speaking.

[Jihelu]

Let's say you put in a spec app for a psion.

Too many psions at the moment, denied and you get your spec app back.

Would it be bad taste to reapply the SAME CHARACTER a year later, when a psion might have died? Not that the year is because you lose the spec app, as you have stated before you would keep it, but because you wanted to wait enough time for someone to store or die.

[Molten Heart]

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[Dresan]

My first thought is that I am hoping I get to keep my current karma options without having to seek a review.


One of the things that I was most excited to read about with the guild changes was how we would get more focused guilds, with potentially less skills but the skills we would get would start out much higher. That way you wouldn't feel so useless (like current assassins are) right out the box and you could jump into playing a role.

I really hope this doesn't all get locked away behind karma. It is really painful to start off a new class in the game and just have to go through that grind those first few days.

[Nathvaan]

Let's say you put in a spec app for a psion.

Too many psions at the moment, denied and you get your spec app back.

Would it be bad taste to reapply the SAME CHARACTER a year later, when a psion might have died? Not that the year is because you lose the spec app, as you have stated before you would keep it, but because you wanted to wait enough time for someone to store or die.

Yes, you could reapp the same character.  I don't think we would assume you needed to wait a year to check back in to see if there is an opening but clearly we need to work on the specifics and timing.  We'll put this on the list of things to discuss. Thanks!

[Jihelu]

Let's say you put in a spec app for a psion.

Too many psions at the moment, denied and you get your spec app back.

Would it be bad taste to reapply the SAME CHARACTER a year later, when a psion might have died? Not that the year is because you lose the spec app, as you have stated before you would keep it, but because you wanted to wait enough time for someone to store or die.

Yes, you could reapp the same character.  I don't think we would assume you needed to wait a year to check back in to see if there is an opening but clearly we need to work on the specifics and timing.  We'll put this on the list of things to discuss. Thanks!

If there was a system or if staff would be nice enough to just straight send someone a message "Hey you could send in that request again" that'd be super cool.

[Nathvaan]

When does karma regeneration begin?

If I understand the question, you are asking at what time/date stamp does the ticker start?  If that is the case, as it stands this would happen when your character first enters the game after approval.

[Delirium]

Perhaps an "interest list" for limited 3-karma roles (psi, sorc) much like there is one for builders & staff.

Also, would these roles be permitted to be low-key or would they need to be out there "in it"?

For example I have a concept I've been toying with for a while, but it would be a slow burn role the way I envision it. Would I be denied the application in favor of other players if I planned to take my time and remain low profile?

[sleepyhead]

Hey, thanks for asking for player input on this, it means a lot to me and I'm sure others too.

It looks great! I love that it doesn't seem like it lends itself to elitism so much as the old system.

I guess the only potential problem I see is that with the 3/sorc 3/psi max, you might end up with either something like a very long waiting list for those roles OR people would be punished for not constantly asking about openings/getting very lucky with their timing.

Maybe you could handle it like something like a role call? You could do a post like, "Hey, there's an opening for a sorcerer; get your special apps in if you want it!" And then you could choose an interesting one from the applicants. Although I'm not sure I like that, either; it opens a whole new box of problems.

You also might get a problem where you get a nice revolving door of psionicists and sorcerers at first, but eventually I think by rotating people out when they die, you very well might end up with a bunch of extremely careful and long-lived sorcerers and/or psis, not leaving any room for anyone else to give it a shot. And as much as those roles can have an impact on the world, I don't think anyone would be thrilled about the prospect of people being force-stored in the middle of their arcs, either.

It's a tough problem to keep 'em rare but also keep it fair, it seems! (Sorry.)

[Brokkr]

I dislike the spend and regenerate aspect. If I earned two karma points then let me spend two karma points on each character. The world does not suffer if there's two protectors or outdoorsmen out there.

If it's a matter of mages being too frequent, put them on a whole separate system. Like mundane karma classes don't spend but mages do.

It's a livable system, I suppose, but I die frequently enough that I can see I'm going to spend a lot of time at 0 or 1 karma. Dying is going to feel like a punishment now, which is just going to screw over those like me who are on the explorer/achieve side of the Bartle chart.

ETA:

I'd like to add that maybe you could mitigate the pain of that by a karma refund for storage or adding in more rerolls per character.

If an option is on the karma scale, it means that it has extra power to what we consider baseline, and we do not want unlimited numbers of characters with those advantages.

[Nathvaan]

Perhaps an "interest list" for limited 3-karma roles (psi, sorc) much like there is one for builders & staff.

Not a bad idea, we'll talk about it. Thanks.

Also, would these roles be permitted to be low-key or would they need to be out there "in it"?

For example I have a concept I've been toying with for a while, but it would be a slow burn role the way I envision it. Would I be denied the application in favor of other players if I planned to take my time and remain low profile?

I can't see any reason why we would dictate how one plays their special application as long as the rules are followed, the setting is followed and RP happens.  But honestly that's no different than any other character! Special app or not.  So the answer is, nope.  "Slow burn" would not be a reason for denial.

[Jihelu]

If the karma system had more in place for people who weren't extreme social, it's hard to communicate with staff when you just ranger in the north all day, that would look better.

"If an option is on the karma scale, it means that it has extra power to what we consider baseline, and we do not want unlimited numbers of characters with those advantages."
Master cook gives like, skin and cook.
I don't think it should be limited to once every 30 days

[Dresan]

I've always had a sneaking suspicion that those psi/sorcerer roles are more common than I believe, and chances are they are continuously played by the same people.

I've never played one, and don't intend to but hoping that should I ever change my mind, my application and those like me who have never played one would be given priority over those that have played mutliple ones. If this means those who have been getting to play sorcerers/psi continuously need to wait... Well then thats even better.

Personally I think the total number is too high, it should be 3 for the combination of both. Additionally sorcerer/psi should be sponsored roles like templars are currently.

[Brokkr]

Master cook gives the ability to master craft.  You may notice that everything that gives the ability to master craft, outside of guild merchant, is on this list.

[Jihelu]

Master cook gives the ability to master craft.  You may notice that everything that gives the ability to master craft, outside of guild merchant, is on this list.

You win this battle.

[Fathi]

I think having a public hard limit on psions and sorcerers is a bad idea because like it or not, the OOC guild sniffing metagame is part of playing those guilds. I worry some people would not RP appropriately if they were given reason to suspect someone was a psionicist or a sorcerer but they already knew the other three ingame. A lot of our players are really good at disregarding that stuff but some aren't.

I can think of some memorable times when people have been framed to be those guilds to take the fall for a real one, or just framed to sic enemies on them, and my concern is that knowing there's an OOC hard limit and it's as small as three will factor into people's RP, even subconsciously.

I'm fine with a cap on those guilds but I think it should be private.

[Decadent Decisions]

I feel like the wait times are massive for some of these subguilds/setups. It seems unreasonable to wait 90 days to get to play some of these extended subguilds. On top of that, I'm not a fan of further long OOC wait times between these roles. I've hardly even ever played them, and I feel those wait times are massive. You have to wait three months to play a different (non-touched) elementalist (even for the 'cheapest' ones)? That's extreme. Further, must wait 6 months between any 3 karma applications, if yours dies? I get it, on the sorcs, and psions. I think they should be behind special applications. I don't necessarily think you should limit the number, and think ideally, the difficulty of getting to a point of playing them would limit them enough (more so with these wait times than anything), but I get that staff have quietly been pushing on that for a time now.

There's so much here that I'm just shaking my head at. I'm trying to nail down the major points though.

1.) The wait times are extreme.
2.) The extended subguilds that are right now placed among the 2 karma guilds are not worth 2 karma under this new system.
3.) The new design of the karma system DOES allow for more people to possibly play psions or sorcs. However, it greatly limits the amount of times you can play any given thing, in a way that's honestly worse than having fought to earn 5 karma under the old system. If people played too many powerful roles at once, or in a row, honestly, address that on a case by case basis. This is too much.
4.) 3 total points of karma is too low paired with the 'regen' and the amount of things for it to be spent on, especially for later on adding MORE stuff to spend it on. It seems like it'd be better off doing 5 with lesser wait times for the lower two karma points, and maybe a bit higher at the 5. Still, six months is too much.


Proposed changes to this system outlined?

-Bump total karma possible to 5.

Sorcerers and Psionicists are Special Application only, with only 1 allowed per year, with an unlimited number of each allowed in game. Must be at least 3 karma to apply for them (within the range of special application ideal). This would limit their presence (once a year per player that has ACCESS to them even), and wouldn't result in 3 super secret hardly logs-in psions/sorcs holding these spots for a while (or losing them when their RL interferes with their play times for a while).

5 Karma -Devastation, Travel, Agony, Mul

4 Karma -Illusion, Guile, Tempest

3 Karma - Half-Giant, Water and Stone Elementalists, Protector, Berserker, Lancer, Bruiser, Aggressor

2 Karma - Outdoorsman, Rogue, Cutpurse, Slipknife

1 Karma - Desert elf, Water/Stone/Fire/Wind Touched. Master Tailor, Minstrel, Master Jeweler, Weaponsmith, Master Crafter, Master Armorsmith, Master Potter, Master Chef, Grebber, Apothecary, Master Trader, Majordomo.

With this system, I would propose a 2 week period between each point of karma, gained back steadily. Not escalating. That means if a MAX karma person apps for something stupid strong, they're still forced to wait at least 10 weeks to app the same. Non-refundable.

For the case of special applications, you can apply 3 higher than your current karma. You should stay at your 'current' level of karma under the new changes, with people 6-8 karma dropping to max karma of 5. (Do you really have anything to complain about, if you get access to the same things? Probably not.)

This ideally seems a better set up. As is, six months between the more powerful applications is too much. We're talking about a percent of a person's life, for a 20 year old game. I understand the elitism that is Armageddon, as it's a fantastic community for roleplaying, but let's please draw the line somewhere. I agree that players shouldn't have to wait 10 years to get to play the most powerful stuff in the game. But I would sooner stick to the old system than move to one where the amount of time between each is massive. I've gone away and almost never come back to the game purely by accident of getting distracted by other things in life. Furthering the confines of the player base within mundane or lesser codedly powerful roles doesn't serve to make the game more inviting or fun.

To anyone who whines about Armageddon needing to be low-magick, or simply have 'less' magick, I'm going to point to the very first paragraph on the 'Home' page of the website.

"Armageddon MUD is an online fantasy game in which players jointly inhabit a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. The game requires roleplay; while conflict abounds, the game is not about killing things. Rather, it is about living out a character's sometimes short and always difficult life in the harsh world, Zalanthas. It is a world where sorcerer-kings and their ruthless servants, the Templarate, govern the two main cities, Allanak and Tuluk. Any magick not granted by the Kings is feared and hated, and where the punishment of such a curse might be death. In this harsh realm, life is a constant struggle, and death may occur over a drink of precious water."

You might come here to chop up people with bone swords. That's cool. I think many come here for this though. Let's not bog them down with massive wait times. Karma is about trust. If you trust a player to have the karma, you should trust them to be responsible with it. If they aren't responsible with it, take it away from them until such a time where they show to be responsible with it. Trying to blanket fix problems (like some people just continually re-apping powerful roles of Psions and Sorcs) will result in many people who don't have anything to do with it, nor having done any wrong suffering the consequences of someone else's bad behavior. I just want us enabling people not only to play the role they want, but also to play other ones they want too without needing to devote years to getting around to them all EVEN IF THEY DIE.

Even if you ignore all of my proposed changes, and want to stick SOLELY to the 3 karma system, I would suggest some sort of HEAVY reduction of the 'regen' times involved. You shouldn't have to wait more than 2 months to play any role that YOU already -earned- access to.