The 18+, probably TMI, mudsex debate thread

[Samoa]

Calavera has a totally fun and cute topic that people have been enjoying elsewhere in general discussion, and something posted to it (which I will quote below) bothered me, and I wanted to respond to it without derailing it.

Some people when unable to have sex with their lover have sex on the phone with her.
Some people when unable to have real life sex engage in sex on the internet.
Some people when unable to have real life sex for long enough at least hire a prostitute.
Some people when unable to have real lives and unable to have real life sex have sex on a game.
Some people who unable to cross the known world who are playing Arm because they have no life at that moment, and who is unable to have real life sex engage in Mud sex through the way.

Over the Way

How many more degrees of separation of reality can there be?

The hard nosed Jiahen templar tells the compliant aide, in sirihish: "Hey, way Lady Oash's aide and ask what she would do if I slowly shoved my XXX up her XXX while kissing her gently.


Some people when unable to have sex with their lover have sex on the phone with her.
Some people when unable to have real life sex engage in sex on the internet.
Some people when unable to have real life sex for long enough at least hire a prostitute.
Some people when unable to have real lives and unable to have real life sex have sex on a game.
Some people who unable to cross the known world who are playing Arm because they have no life at that moment, and who is unable to have real life sex engage in Mud sex through the way.
Some people who are too busy in their virtual world instead of their real life so they need to virtually hire some one in the same boat, who is also unable to cross the known world who is furthermore playing arm because they have no life, and who is unable to have real life sex engaging in mud sex through the way through some one else.

I really do not understand this argument at all.

Engaging in sexual roleplay on Armageddon doesn't mean you have a shitty sex life or are a loser. This isn't a matter of "let's agree to disagree," it isn't some kind of opinion that can be attributed to taste, it's just _a fact_. There is _no bearing_ between the two. Some people engage in sexual roleplay, and some people don't, and I'd wager to say that in most cases, it's actually in the middle, and it's more of a "sometimes" kind of thing for just about everyone. Usually I have something better to do in-game. Sometimes, I really don't, or I am interested in the nuances that come out during sex with whoever I'm with (or am interested in expressing those nuances belonging to my PC at the time), and hey, guess what -- if we're going to be pointing fingers and making fun of people for what they do or don't like to do, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you don't think normally unrevealed nuances show themselves during sex and not during other times, it's probably not *me* who has the inexperienced sex life.

Why does this constantly come up? How is this a thing that is endlessly debated and fought over? Why must there be some holier-than-thou attitude revolving around mudsex? Do we need facts to put some kind of stake in the heart of this and bury it for all time? That's never come up in this debate before, so let's try that.

I have been here for a *very long time*. I may not have been around when people would run up to Tuluk and kill the guards for their bronze swords, and I may not have been here when LoD discovered he could order his inix to cast heal on him in the early days (spoiler: this is no longer possible), but I've been around for over a decade. WELL before I started playing here, I roleplayed elsewhere, and some of *that* was sexual, too. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and bite the bullet and say that I played (and play! gasp!) on *purely* sexual games. I have been doing *that* for over a decade and a half. It is safe to say that sexuality is probably pretty firmly rooted in my personality (more on this later!), and regardless of what I do in my personal life or via roleplay, it will come out a bit.

I don't play Armageddon to 'get my kicks'. I get plenty of kicks, thanks, and for those of you who actually know me, you probably understand me when I'm saying that if I got anymore kicks, I would probably be dead. I make professional pornography for a *living*. I am (and pardon the ego) *ridiculously* hot. I have had more partners than I can count, and things like group sex, orgies, whips, Eyes Wide Shut parties, whatever -- are part of my normal, daily life. I do not engage in mudsex because I am somehow finding rampant, endless sexual romps with porn stars to be somehow unsatisfactory. I do not engage in it because I am somehow "bad" at sex (and in fact, most of my PCs are shitty lays unless they have reason not to be). I engage in it because it tends to be interesting to whatever story I am focused on telling at the time. People state this every time this gets brought up, and yet somehow things still go back to, "haha, sure, it's "story-based," I got you. I think we all know what's lacking in your personal life." Let me state this unequivocally. There is nothing lacking.

When I *do* engage in sexual roleplay to "get my kicks," guess what? I don't do it here. This may come as a shock to you, but having your emotes truncated to about 240 characters is laughably inadequate. There is absolutely *no way* that someone who gets a thrill from writing out sex is going to be satisfied with emotes that, by and large, come out to be nearly fractional sentences at best -- not to mention that it's going to cost them a ridiculous amount of obsidian to even feed their characters for the 'down time' (a problem PC whores have noted in the past). When I want to write dirty smut, I go somewhere else that caters to it. The fact that you somehow think people who get their thrills from mudsex would come to Armageddon, learn the masses of documentation, assimilate into the playerbase, and otherwise progress past our immense learning curve in order to write dirty things to one another is ludicrous. This is akin to saying that people who enjoy playing Sylvanesti forest elves are coming here to play our elves like that. They're not. Do you know where they go? They go somewhere that caters to the thing that they want to play. What makes this even *funnier* is that I have noticed numerous players elsewhere (do you really think others don't recognize it when you copy over character descriptions, or use Zalanthan background stories?) who are doing the *exact same thing*. And you know what? I doubt there's things lacking in *their* personal lives, either.

Sex is a perfectly normal thing, and for whatever reason, it gets demonised and stigmatised, and the people who enjoy it get made fun of, even when they're pretend people like elves and water mages. Sex is part of my personality, and while most of my life revolves around it, that doesn't mean I am somehow some one-dimensional creature that does nothing but fiend for it and bring it everywhere I go in some kind of chasing-the-Dragon (I'd like to point out that this pun is EXCEPTIONALLY clever) life-quest. I would therefore also reason that if you see a character who is acting nymphomaniacal, guess what? Maybe since it's something that real humans do, it is something that pretend, roleplayed humans do sometimes as well.

To recap:

• There is no correlation between offline sex life and characters mudsexing.
• Armageddon as an environment and as a code base lends itself EXTREMELY poorly to 'recreational' mudsex, and it is unlikely that anyone in it for that would ever stick around.
• If it's normal for the occasional real person to be sex-obsessed, it is normal for the occasional PC person to be sex-obsessed as well.

So can we now *please* stop making absurd assumptions about people and mocking them behind their back (or, as is the case with mudsex threads on the GDB, to their face) now that someone has actually stepped up and outlined the problems with your arguments? Thank you.

[Kalai]

This is true. Expecting folk to not tease about sex is pushing it kinda far, though.   Most of us are not in your environment and might be a little more shy about the matter.

Keeping false impressions from perpetuating too much is good, however.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Get 'em, Sam.

Judging people period is pretty stupid - particularly on a roleplaying game where we ... roleplay a 'real' life in a 'world' that supposedly is 'realistically fantasy'. I can't agree that there's NO correlation between homebody and mudsex, because I don't think that's fair to the reality that there's some people who really do experience things here that they can't in real life, but I absolutely do agree that deciding someone doesn't have much of a sex life because they RP sex on an RP game is pretty dim witted.

Personally, I'd rather always decide that that person is playing this game to enjoy themselves, and if that includes sleeping with everythingt hat walks, then more power to them. Whether their sex life IRL is uber active, or non existent, I'm assuming they are having fun right now, and how could I possibly judge someone narrowly for having fun?

I mean, does the fact that you like boobies on TV or watch porn now and then mean that you don't have a sex life? Nah - nah, it doesn't.

That said, I think the post that raised Samoa's ire was probably a joke, because it sure read like one.

[Kalai]

... Also can I have your autograph?

[Kieandatu]

There will always be people that feel that "hem @'s penis rubs against the inside of his pants" is a bit ludicrous. To ask people to change their feelings is a bit like asking people to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

That said, I have no issue with people that mudsex, I just feel like stuff I do when -I- roleplay revolves around aspects of my personality that DON'T shine through in real life. We should count ourselves lucky that, if you aren't "into" it, or anything else blocking your want to roleplay sexual activity, you can always FTB.

Unfortunately, for the people that DO play this game for mudsex/sexual roleplay (primarily or not), there is a feeling... or a ... I don't know... surrounding the fact that if you -don't- engage in mudsex with someone else, you probably won't have the IG relationship you're looking for, because the player wants something more.

Is that a wrong feeling?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Never had that problem, but that's not to say that it doesn't exist. I would do what's good for me OOCly in a situation like that. FTB if you wanna, don't if you wanna. You already have to ask each others' consent. If they wanna go a path you don't, you're better off finding that out early.

"Sure, this time. I usually FTB, though, so be prewarned."

"No, not comfortable with that graphic part of the relationship. FTB only please."

"Hellz to tha Yezz."

[Akaramu]

I really don't think there is a mudsex problem IG, and if there is one OOC, it might be best to send player complaints or just ignore those people. It's random people on the internet, who you'll likely never meet in RL, so who cares?

It's perfectly normal for humans as well as Armageddon to have sex. That said, it's also perfectly normal for some people, IG and in real life, to be bothered by others who have a lot of sex, and trash talk about them. That will never change.

I'm not sure this discussion is going to lead anywhere.

[A Large Bag]

The only complaint I have with it is I mainly play this game for all of the other parts of roleplay. I always fade to black because I simply don't enjoy sexual rp on a mud.

I get frustrated when I can't find other characters in game because they're spending a majority of their time doing sexual rp instead of interaction with the rest of the game on other levels. I get frustrated when the only kind of rp those around me seem interested in is sexual rp. I get frustrated when people have their characters behaving in an unrealistic manner in order to engage in sexual roleplay.

I don't have a problem that people want to do it in general and I do see how it can add to the story and how it can be realistic. (Which is why my characters do have sex, even though I choose to ftb.)
When I log in to play and it seems like my character is surrounded by others who's entire roleplay -always- surrounds sexual roleplay, it's annoying. There's nothing wrong with it if they're behaving realistically and that's what they choose to spend their time doing. It just really sucks for -me- because it's not what I'd like to be spending my time on the game doing.

Sexual rp on a mud is to real life sex as non-alcoholic beer is to real beer, to me. I'd rather be spending my time doing the real thing than wasting my time with anything less. *shrug*

[Dresan]

Another mudsex thread. At least this one has a slightly different ring to it.

Anyways, I've always believed that the best mudsexors in the game are probably the people here who come and scream will always fad to black for one reason or another.


This game is really slow paced. It can often feel like there isn't much to do other then tavern sit, hunt and spar. Even if you have a few 'personal' plots going its still very slow paced, and there really isn't anything to do but tavern sit, hunt or spar as you wait.  Unless of course, you suddenly have an urge to find a 'kwel' and often quick way to die. For most people i bet mudsex is just a nice change of pace, and good for them. Hopefully it will keep them entertained until something more interesting is happening in their IC lives.

Mudsex is just thing to pass the time, like tavern sitting except no one accuses tavern sitters of being friendless in real life with no social life and needy of attention. Then again mudsex is just one of those things on the GBD that people like pokiing fun at, no different then how people whine over half-elves, mages and look spam. Seriously though, just looking at people without a good excuse infuriates them? [/derail]  

[Cutthroat]

I don't understand the stigma about mudsex either, but mostly because it doesn't actually harm any other players. In general, players who mudsex are not doing it all the time - that would detract from the game as it pulls two (or more!) characters away from the general play area, depriving others of interacting with them. It's rare that my character is surrounded by others that are constantly having sex. However, I tend to think that characters' extended focus on personal plots (including mudsex) stems from the lack of other things to do. So, I invite people to break up those month-long orgies by doing something interesting in-game. It works.

Also, unless you're there, you can't really know if players are mudsexing, because a lot of "sex scenes" end up being FTB with talking beforehand and afterward, if only because there are a limited number of ways to describe the acts of [redacted]. There's no need to take various leaps in a train of thought to justify why someone mudsexes because there is no way to truly know - the only thing you can safely assume from an outsider's standpoint is whether or not they are comfortable with roleplaying sex, and even then you'd have to be in the same room with them.

I agree with 7DV in that the quoted post was an attempt at humor, but at the same time, there are probably people that actually think that. I don't think you're going to get many people to budge on it terribly much, and I'm pretty sure Mudsex is officially part of the Hate Cycle; but I think it helps to get things like this out there.

[Jengal]

Sometimes at night when I'm under the sheets I cover myself in vaseline and pretend I'm a slug.

[Dresan]

If something more interesting suddenly began to occur, say a zombie attack on a city. I'm pretty sure everyone would stop hunting, sparring and mudsexxing to see what all the commotion was about. People would barricade themselves in taverns not just sit in them too. Though if people got together to make something interesting happen like say a zombie attack for instance, i think some mudsex between the many RL year it would take to get it occur might still be needed just to pass the time. Just a little mudsex though, not too much.  

I think it was Halaster I first saw post he wouldn't want to mud sex because he could do that in RL.  Not picking on Large Bag here btw, i was writing my first post as they were posting theirs. Its a common argument though made by several people on this GBD. It could be that i'm so understanding of mudsex because I wouldn't be able go out and just have random sex with practical strangers in RL.  I mean there are places for this, and prostitutes do seem plentiful and cheap but what would my friends think? What would our significant others and kids think? Heck what would our doctor think when we came back with all those STDs. Sex with random strangers you meet at taverns isn't something i could engage in RL unlike some of the brave studs on this GBD. In the same way i suppose i could manage to stab my old neighbor in the back as they garden but yet won't in RL but want to partake in it once in a while ICly. I could find someone, get married, buy a house and have some kids which coincidentally doesn't seem to happen that often in the game (Kudos to those that manage to pull it off ICly). You know what we can all also do in RL? Spar, hunt (with a bow too) and very easily head to your nearest tavern and/or pub and sit down to look at people. Yet we are all here playing this game, funny huh?

In closing, let me just say i think we all know what we need: A zombie attack. It is because its something non of us will ever get a chance to truly experience or go do in RL. So if a player has the time to dedicate a few solid years of their life to getting that going, it would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance

[Dresan]

Sometimes at night when I'm under the sheets I cover myself in vaseline and pretend I'm a slug.

You have won this GDB thread. Well, done sir, well done. 

[Is Friday]

All of my characters that I actually put effort into have some sort of romantic relationship. I think the comedy made possible is great, especially when paired up with another clever player.

[Maso]

Me think they doth protest too much.

The people who joke and pick fun at mudsex the most are probably the ones doing it the most, or jealous because they want to be doing it but they're not.

I learned about sex on a mud (oops), which makes me a bit nervy that I could be RP'ing with a very young player.

I love the tension and drama that can come from sexual relationships, but my characters rarely have them. I also enjoy the nuances of RP surrounding them. But I'll FTB the 'gory' bits and I don't worry that this will harm my PC's relationship to another PC...because the caliber of roleplay here is very high and it -shouldn't-. I don't care if I'm upsetting the player behind the PC because he/she wanted to get their rocks off. But I also don't care if people do want to mudsex, so what? If it makes them happy then thats great. Personally, it usually takes ages to RP out a mudsex scene, and I have better more interesting things to do, and I find mudsex (the gory bit) pretty darn boring. But yeah, no one should be judged for it. The folks who get their kicks out of torturing and mutilating people...and crawling around in sewers eating rats...are way weirder.

The one thing that I really cannot stand is just regular relationships. Not if anyone else is doing it, but I just won't do it. I'm not going to spend my time RP'ing one half of a happy couple. It's possibly the most boring thing ever. If my characters are doing anything remotely sexual then it's always going to be because it's taboo, tense, emotional, dramatic or hilarious, and it should have implications their story that is more than just 'I got kanked last night'.

The thing about the quote in OP that bothered me the most was just the bit that suggested Arm players play because they have no life. I think , if anything, it would actually be the other way round. A lot of Arm players are very social and friendly people who do have social lives, family and friends. But sometimes neglect that in order to play Arm, because it's so damn addictive and there just aren't enough hours in the day.

[boog]

I am here, adding that the few Arm players I know and or speak with outside of the game have better sex lives than most people I see and know personally.

assumptions are silly! Be nice to your fellow players. Some of them are quite surprisingly lovely and normal.

[Maso]

Some of them are quite surprisingly lovely and normal.

+1

[Lizzie]

Me think they doth protest too much.

The people who joke and pick fun at mudsex the most are probably the ones doing it the most, or jealous because they want to be doing it but they're not.

I consider this as untrue, as its reverse:

People who claim mudsex is fine and normal and nothing is wrong with it and it's fun and an important part of roleplay - are probably the ones who are the most depraved in real life.

I find both statements to be equally untrue, because they are absolutes with no room for exception. For me, mudsex is uncomfortable because I can't stand the *possibility* (not the absolute), that the other person involved might very well be a 16-year-old teenager wanking off to text. Just the thought that this *might* be true, is enough to make me totally, utterly, and completely not interested.

When you're old enough to be grandma, these things are a necessary concern.

[Is Friday]

I'll PM you my character info if you wanna have a good time, Lizzie.

[Evoru]

For me, mudsex is uncomfortable because I can't stand the *possibility* (not the absolute), that the other person involved might very well be a 16-year-old teenager wanking off to text. Just the thought that this *might* be true, is enough to make me totally, utterly, and completely not interested.

Why is it that people always seem to get very distraught over sexual situations and the possibilities of minors seeing them, but not the thought of rping with them when they could be murdered/tortured/starved to death/dying of heat exhaustion?

Further, sex is a natural part of life. It's how most of us got here. Anyone who claims that they think little of mudsex because they could be doing "other" things...well, I don't see how it's any more ridiculous than role playing eating, drinking, or performing labor. It's no less ridiculous when you step back and look at it objectively. Yet here we all are.

[Morrolan]

When you're old enough to be grandma, these things are a necessary concern.

What the conversation "should" be (and probably never will be):

OOC: Consent to sex?

OOC: I am legally a minor in my jurisdiction, and am unable to provide consent. FTB, please.

[ShaLeah]

I hope Adj was joking cause I know one of his characters got more ass than a toilet seat... which means.. he must REALLY be lonely and sexually lacking in real life.

[Iiyola]

This is just a big ol' Adj troll, it's the same thing he tried in another thread about 'Double Standards' (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43728.msg691695.html#msg691695) and honestly, he's ruining the fun of a threat by trying to be a dumb smart ass.

[Iiyola]

I hope Adj was joking cause I know one of his characters got more ass than a toilet seat... which means.. he must REALLY be lonely and sexually lacking in real life.

Well, I have the answer to that.

OOCly: I slept with a girl with an STD and didn't get one.
ICly: my character slep with a girl without an STD and got one.

[Dresan]

So if Lizzie knew someone was an adult, she could potentially show them text so explicit it would put the internet to shame and be probably be banned in several states as obscene material?

Well even a degenerate like me can understand that children need to be protected from that!

After all:




Joking aside, i do want to add that her argument is probably the most valid and reasonable with exception to the fact that the graphic violence and explicit torture in the game should be more of a concern than reading that the penis is going into the vagina. Just the society we live in i guess.