Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[Marauder Moe]

I don't understand why you would freak out about these criteria.  Do you really think they're all brand new? 

Do you really think there are many 8-karma players out there today who haven't had at least one character last 6 months or so?

[Adhira]

The criteria aren't brand new, it's basically the kind of thought process staff went through when awarding karma, we've just formalised it a it more so we can have some consistency.

The longevity karma is not for how long your pc lives, it's how long you've been an active player.

Karma is CGP. If you are newbie you have 0 karma which is the same as saying 0 CGP.  If you have 8 karma you will have 8 CGP.  If you never 'use' that karma for a karma guild, subguild or skill boost you will always have 8 CGP. If you use 4 points to make your next character you will have 4 points that will regenerate over time till you have the full 8 available again.   There is no 're-earning' it's an automated sytem that regenerates over time.

[WarriorPoet]

Sounds complicated.

[Incognito]

I don't understand why you would freak out about these criteria.  Do you really think they're all brand new? 

Do you really think there are many 8-karma players out there today who haven't had at least one character last 6 months or so?

Not freaking at all Moe, just trying to figure out if this is gonna be a hybrid system, or, based more on CGP, or what?

Adhira's original post says "ArmageddonMUD operates a Karma system designed to open up the more complicated, powerful and RP challenging roles to players.  The awarding of Karma has been  a somewhat ad-hoc process with many shortfalls.  We have redesigned the process to outline a set of criteria that staff will use when awarding (and removing) karma from a player account. "

But his post and Morg's post, then go on to talk more about CGP system.

Lemme try and rephrase: I understand from some of the posts I've read so far, that the CGP system is gonna be automated. If yes, what will the criteria for the automated system be? (How can one automate awarding a CGP point for knowledge of social and racial structures for example?). If no, then it will have to be some Staff member who manually adds/deducts the CGP from each player.

Similarly, will the Karma system continue as it is currently set up? If so, it is again dependent on Staff members awarding/reducing Karma points.

I guess I'm trying to figure out if its gonna be completely automated, semi-automated, or, Staff-dependent (ad-hoc as Adhira's post says).

[Incognito]

The criteria aren't brand new, it's basically the kind of thought process staff went through when awarding karma, we've just formalised it a it more so we can have some consistency.

The longevity karma is not for how long your pc lives, it's how long you've been an active player.

Karma is CGP. If you are newbie you have 0 karma which is the same as saying 0 CGP.  If you have 8 karma you will have 8 CGP.  If you never 'use' that karma for a karma guild, subguild or skill boost you will always have 8 CGP. If you use 4 points to make your next character you will have 4 points that will regenerate over time till you have the full 8 available again.   There is no 're-earning' it's an automated sytem that regenerates over time.

Thanks for clarifying that point Adhira - much appreciated.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't understand why you would freak out about these criteria.  Do you really think they're all brand new? 

Do you really think there are many 8-karma players out there today who haven't had at least one character last 6 months or so?

Not freaking at all Moe, just trying to figure out if this is gonna be a hybrid system, or, based more on CGP, or what?

Err, sorry, my post wasn't in response to yours.

Anyway, CGP aren't awarded by the criteria.  You get them at a rate of 1 per RL month, accumulating a number of points up to your karma level.  Or at least that's how I think it works... lol.  Yeah, it is a tad confusing.

[Dalmeth]

Anyway, CGP aren't awarded by the criteria.  You get them at a rate of 1 per RL month, accumulating a number of points up to your karma level.  Or at least that's how I think it works... lol.  Yeah, it is a tad confusing.

That's exactly the way the staff put it.  Nothing confusing about it other than other people rephrasing it on less concrete terms.

[Incognito]

Anyway, CGP aren't awarded by the criteria.  You get them at a rate of 1 per RL month, accumulating a number of points up to your karma level.  Or at least that's how I think it works... lol.  Yeah, it is a tad confusing.

That's exactly the way the staff put it.  Nothing confusing about it other than other people rephrasing it on less concrete terms.

So would it be correct to state that: The karma system will now be based on the various criteria mentioned in Adhira's post. It will still be controlled by Staff, but, it will be more effectively channeled through the various criteria listed. And, CGP on the other hand can be used based on what you have on-hand, and will regen automatically at the rate of 1 per month?

[Marauder Moe]

Anyway, CGP aren't awarded by the criteria.  You get them at a rate of 1 per RL month, accumulating a number of points up to your karma level.  Or at least that's how I think it works... lol.  Yeah, it is a tad confusing.

That's exactly the way the staff put it.  Nothing confusing about it other than other people rephrasing it on less concrete terms.

So would it be correct to state that: The karma system will now be based on the various criteria mentioned in Adhira's post. It will still be controlled by Staff, but, it will be more effectively channeled through the various criteria listed. And, CGP on the other hand can be used based on what you have on-hand, and will regen automatically at the rate of 1 per month?

Basically, yep.

Karma is still mostly the same as it's been, but also it's your max CGP.

Karma is still awarded manually.  The criteria are mostly a formalization of existing unwritten (or at least unpublished) guidelines for handing it out.

CGP's go down when spent on a character options/boosts/whatever and go back up 1 point per month automatically.

[Dalmeth]

So would it be correct to state that: The karma system will now be based on the various criteria mentioned in Adhira's post. It will still be controlled by Staff, but, it will be more effectively channeled through the various criteria listed. And, CGP on the other hand can be used based on what you have on-hand, and will regen automatically at the rate of 1 per month?

Not very wrong, but only for the fact that these criteria aren't new.  All they've done is stated limits for how much karma each criteria can earn.

Otherwise, you're spot on.

[Taven]

Karma is still mostly the same as it's been, but also it's your max CGP.

Unless you special app, in which case if you have the max karma ( 8 ) you can ask for 3 more CGPs (making your CGP total for that PC 11).

[mansa]

The only useful input I have on this change is regarding the time it takes to regenerate "points".



I'd rather have them regenerate quicker than one point a month.  Maybe once every two weeks, or even once every week.

We're talking about the enjoyment of the players, playing what they want to play.  If you force a player who doesn't want to something to play something, they will just decide not to play.  We need all the players we can get logging in as often as possible.

[drunkendwarf]

The only useful input I have on this change is regarding the time it takes to regenerate "points".



I'd rather have them regenerate quicker than one point a month.  Maybe once every two weeks, or even once every week.

We're talking about the enjoyment of the players, playing what they want to play.  If you force a player who doesn't want to something to play something, they will just decide not to play.  We need all the players we can get logging in as often as possible.

About the best way I could have put that, and this was my main concern from the beginning.

[Lizzie]

I agree with Mansa specifically in the case of the exsisting karma layout. The "value added" stuff, I would be totally for it "costing" points to use, even in -exchange- for regular karma points...

So for this existing list:
1 karma       desert elf
2 karma       water and stone elementalist
3 karma       half giant
4 karma       wind and fire elementalist
5 karma       lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma       void elementalist
7 karma       mul
8 karma       psi and sorcerer

If you have earned 4 karma, and you want to play a krathi, then you have earned that privilege. You shouldn't have to give that privilege up just because you chose to enjoy it. Not for a month, not for two months, not at all. The time limit should be based on whether or not there's already enough saturation of krathis in the game, just like it is, and has been. If there are enough krathis in the game, there are enough krathis in the game, and so no, you can't play a krathi this month, even though you have the karma to play it. But if the last gemmed krathi bit the dust and there's an opening, you shouldn't have to wait 2 months to play one, nor should you have to special app one, if you already have the karma to play one. Either I earned these points, or I didn't.

[Kol]

I think your all missing the point as to why these changes are being put in place.

The higher the Karma role, the more rare it's supposed to be, in terms of Gickerology anyway.

While yes, you have enough Karma to play that Gicker you so badly desire, you don't have enough CGP to put in for one, you can't be arsed to spend a special app attempt on asking for those CGP's back because you spent them on boosting your warriors kick until he could kick a 'Met into touch, tough tits, wait a while, play something that doesn't require you spending CGP's or won't lower your CGP's past where they already are.

You chose to boost your warrior, knowing you only had enough CGP's to make a standard Krathi, but hoped he'd last long enough to regen those points so that when you ran him off the shield wall in a burning argosy pissed out his skull on flame and having an orgy with the gith, you could roll up that sweet sweet firey goodness. He didn't last that long, and now you can't play that Krathi, YOU made the choice to boost, YOU knew what would happen if you died, and decided that it was worth the risk. Live with the consequences.

If your bitching about how you won't be able to roll gicker after gicker after gicker, In my opinion, you shouldn't be allowed to anyway. These abilities are supposed to be RARE, like, winning the lottery rare, and as more experienced players, yes, being able to kick the shit out of a HG with a well placed fireball is fun, maybe, just maybe, those noobs you like torching and removing the boots from, still smoking, could use your wisdom as that slightly more experienced, grizzled ranger, or the knowledgeable merchant, hell who knows, you might remember why you chose to play this game to start.
I know the first thing I thought after reading the blog, GDB, and help files wasn't 'Damn, gotta get me karma to play a finger-wiggler!' It was probably somewhere along the lines of 'Heh, easy as pi....shit.' Hell, I have enough Karma now to play with Gickers, yet I still find myself rolling up more Rangers than anything else, why? Because that, for me, was the mundane guild that got me into this game, and made me fall in love with the sands, the blood, the murder, and you reprobates.



If you want to make changes to the system, at least wait to see how it works out first. As far as I've read, I think it's a pretty fair system, and is more liable to balance it out. Hell, maybe even create more conflict in game what with if there's more mundanes, there may actually be enough of them to have a decent scrap?

Hell, everybody, roll up a warrior/ranger/assassin and join a city malita, lets have a damn war!

[Bacon]

As far as the magicker after magicker thing. I think if someone wants to make water/stone/wind/fire/shadow/lightning over and over again, they should be able to. There does exist a large part of one of the major cities in the game devoted to these. They are not as rare as all that. For nilazi,muls, sorcs, and psions I agree they should be rarer. So, excluding magicker hate, I can see why people that like to play elementalists would be a little put off by this. The ones that can be gemmed are far more abundant, and should be, than the others.

I don't play them that often myself but I have enjoyed a couple of the ones I've tried. When people express their hate and how much they are for anything that prevents others from playing magickers all the time if they so choose, it makes me want to make more of them just to spite them.

[Delirium]

Water and stone elementalists won't eat CGP to make, if I understand things right. Anything under 3 karma will be selectable.

And you will always have 1 CGP... or something. Uh, I'm a little confused, too, but I think the finalized documentation will clear things up.

[Lizzie]

I'm not whining about what I can and cannot do with regards to karma; I can't play any of the advanced karma classes without a special application as it is. None of it applies to me -personally.- However it might, at some point in the future. And it applies to everyone who has enough karma, who have -proven themselves already- to be responsible to play these roles. As I've said, as the staff has said...

if the staff thinks you have played too many of "x" they will ask you to stop doing it for awhile. They ALREADY do this.

Furthermore, if you have enough karma with the new system, which would be a total of what - 13 points? You could effectively play mage after mage after mage, never playing anything else, ANYWAY. The people who play high karma classes on a regular basis, already know how to "work the system" to keep their characters alive long enough to earn back every single point of the karma they have to spend. However, they aren't -required- to do that currently. They don't have to sacrifice a thing, because they have EARNED what they have. This system is telling them that they'll have to sacrifice it - and worse - if their 8-karma character gets PKed by a noob after a day's play they would have to special app an equal replacement, OR play mundanes for the next 5 months until they regen that karma back again. Even though they -earned- that karma. And that's not just sorcs, it's muls..which isn't magick at all and is VERY difficult to play, and has a very high turnover rate. Anyone who has -earned- the karma required to play a mul, should be allowed to play a mul every single time they create a new character. The only time they shouldn't be allowed to play one, is if the staff thinks there's already enough of them in the game, or if they feel the player has earned a "demotion" of karma through poor behavior/communication/whatever.

The only thing this does, with regards to the existing karma system, is tell people who have earned the right to play "x" karma thing, that they have to give up their karma every single time they use it, and wait for it to regen. It's a slap in the face to the people who have already earned it and who have been enjoying it, with the staff's blessings, up to this point.

[Bacon]

Yeah, in regards to muls I think the karma scale should be swapped around a little.

Should be like this I think:

1 karma       desert elf
2 karma       water and stone elementalist
3 karma       half giant
4 karma       wind and fire elementalist
5 karma       lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma       mul
7 karma       void elementalist
8 karma       psi and sorcerer

I know there are some difficulties to playing muls but degree of difficulty and power when comparing them to void elementalists I think they should be a tad lower on the karma scale.

[mansa]

I'm just thinking.

I make a human krathi.
I die in 2 days, or in a week.

If I have 4 karma, how much longer do I have to wait till I can play one again?  Or a whiran?

Do I have to wait 3 months before I can try a whiran?

What if I go through a character a week?  That means I'll have to go through almost 12 other characters before I can try this cool character concept I have in mind...

[shadeoux]

I'm just thinking.

I make a human krathi.
I die in 2 days, or in a week.

If I have 4 karma, how much longer do I have to wait till I can play one again?  Or a whiran?

Do I have to wait 3 months before I can try a whiran?

What if I go through a character a week?  That means I'll have to go through almost 12 other characters before I can try this cool character concept I have in mind...

Something like that, Unless you use one of the 12 spec apps you get a year to do it. My last spec app had a turnover of 4 days. To bad though I wanted to play a smurf.

[Bacon]

I think part of the idea is to cut down on special apps not create more of them, isn't it?

[Lizzie]

Yeah, in regards to muls I think the karma scale should be swapped around a little.

Should be like this I think:

1 karma       desert elf
2 karma       water and stone elementalist
3 karma       half giant
4 karma       wind and fire elementalist
5 karma       lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma       mul
7 karma       void elementalist
8 karma       psi and sorcerer

I know there are some difficulties to playing muls but degree of difficulty and power when comparing them to void elementalists I think they should be a tad lower on the karma scale.

So that means, if you have enough karma to play a mul, and want to play a mul, and get approved to play a mul, play one, and lose one to one of the kajillions of mul-hating PCs in the world, you aren't allowed to play a krathi for another month unless you special app it. This makes sense, how, exactly? And benefits the players in what way, again?

[Zoltan]

I'm just thinking.

I make a human krathi.
I die in 2 days, or in a week.

If I have 4 karma, how much longer do I have to wait till I can play one again?  Or a whiran?

Do I have to wait 3 months before I can try a whiran?

What if I go through a character a week?  That means I'll have to go through almost 12 other characters before I can try this cool character concept I have in mind...

This was answered, I think. If you choose a higher-end karma guild, your chargen points don't drop below three. At least, that's the impression I got.

I also want to pipe up again as one of those serial karma-class players that honestly looks forward to these changes. I tend to think that a slightly faster point-regen would be nice, but honestly I just want to see it in game as soon as possible to see how it works out.

From what I can see, karma will still be the metric of staff trust. It's not like they suddenly wouldn't trust me to play a Drovian just because my chargen points are lower than 5. It's just a system to give players more options while paring down the population of high-karma guilds.

I will say that I have a minor concern about karma review, though. It would suck to possibly lose some karma because I'm not logged in nearly as much these days, despite the fact that I'm the same player I was back when I earned my karma. But I think that might just be paranoia speaking. 

[Voular]

Change and progress is always good.

However. This is a lazy system. The karma system always has been.

The rate of which Karma is awarded and then used in is silly.  Trust and the value of your character and playstyle can change much swifter than what admins can and will modify your karma level.

I would think we just need applications for everything, no karma point system. Write an app, have a larger pool of staff assigned to the different karma-levels and have them monitor the subsequent approved ones and so on. Like our special app system now, just larger, more function and more reporting and exchange between player and admin. It would at least give people the illusion of choice, it would also keep people modest in their scope. Icarus effect.

I somehow always feel that when you start to automate and restrict the role-selecting like this, is the day when you feel you can not really trust the players of your game.


Are we increasing in playerbase all of a sudden? Or? I still suspect the admins would be able to handle applications from all of us.. Since we still send them in every freaking time. Why not just let us send in apps for whatever we wish to play and judge us on the spot that day, that moment? Why is it that earning trust has to be something that conforms to such a rigid set of rules? Come on people, we've been playing this game for fucking years at a time. So many playdays, so many years logged. And you're telling me to wank off because you've not spotted me to be trustworthy enough? Shit. Begone karma-system!

VIVE LA REVOLUTION!

Voular out.