Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[TheBadSeed]

I play only basic race mundanes.

I play a lot of older guys.

Finally a way for me to make my older "experienced" characters not get stomped into the ground/outshined by 15 year old characters who have been alive for a game year.

This new system FTW.

Bingo. Always hated that coded skills have to catch up to match background with an older character.

I think this idea is great. The option to spend Karma to make a mundane character more fleshed out is awesome. I can definitely see this changing the demographics of what kinds of skillsets are played.

[TheBadSeed]

I think it's a good thing that this encourages non-risky play; many of us play PCs that are really insanely oblivious to danger.

More players won't even choose to try some karma roles because of the upfront investment, instead choosing easier things that they know that can do.  Why play a caster when instead there is the choice to play of a mundane role with a karma subguild and/or skill boosts that have no inherent ic restrictions that come with them.

That may be true, but a good thing.

Since I'm not the greatest at staying alive, I keep spreadsheets for my characters so I can keep track of who I've met with each character, what I know about them IC, etc.

In one of my recent short lived characters, just an average Joe, living in an average town, I knew 15 people by name, and 7 of those, he knew IC were magickers. Another I had some OOC suspicions about magick ability.
Kinda makes it hard to view magick as rare, powerful, freakish and scary when they're the majority.

[Desertman]

Also, the ability for subguild crafting classes being able to master their given crafting art via spending points it awesome sauce.

As it stands, I always felt like subguild crafting was more of an investment than it was worth because you can't master them.

I am a little dissapointed that you can't spend these points to master a branched crafting skill after the fact.

For example, a ranger being able to master "tanning" or "fletchery" or something like that because its a crafting skill that was obtained after character generation.

Special app request after the fact perhaps?

"Hey, I just branched tanning and would like to spend my points I have in stock so that I will be able to master this crafting skill."

Thoughts?

[Down Under]

I hope Master Chef is one of the options.

[brytta.leofa]

It'd be extra special if mastercraftin' subguilds included cavilish.

[Dalmeth]

Also, the ability for subguild crafting classes being able to master their given crafting art via spending points it awesome sauce.

As it stands, I always felt like subguild crafting was more of an investment than it was worth because you can't master them.

I am a little dissapointed that you can't spend these points to master a branched crafting skill after the fact.

For example, a ranger being able to master "tanning" or "fletchery" or something like that because its a crafting skill that was obtained after character generation.

Special app request after the fact perhaps?

"Hey, I just branched tanning and would like to spend my points I have in stock so that I will be able to master this crafting skill."

Thoughts?

No mere thoughts have been given, but flat out denials of anything beyond character generation.  Besides, you don't spend points to let subguilds master their crafts, you spend points to get subguilds that can master their crafts.  Subtle difference in wording but a world of difference in implementation.

[Kalai]

I hope Master Chef is one of the options.

Master house servant! I seriously want a ranger / master house servant.

[musashi]

More players won't even choose to try some karma roles because of the upfront investment, instead choosing easier things that they know that can do.  Why play a caster when instead there is the choice to play of a mundane role with a karma subguild and/or skill boosts that have no inherent ic restrictions that come with them.

I disagree with the premise. If players want to play a role they've never tried before, they'll play that role. They'll just treat the role more carefully, as though it were a special application that they really don't want to lose.

[AreteX]

I like the idea of standardized awarding of Karma, the new rules for obtaining it as well.

The one thing I am not sure about is the fact that most people with Karma have the advantage of OOC knowledge better than my own.  I struggle in the world when I don't know how to make the best obsidian, or where to find essential and powerful items, ect.  Or the map itself and moving between cities the best way, or any of that.  They already had the advantage of being able to start characters that have advanced races/class combinations.

But, at least when they started a Mundane Human Assassin(like I potentially could) they all started with Novice Backstab, ect and the same set of skills as myself(unless it was a special app).  Now though, they will have the potential to create these basic classes, and with 5 Karma be able to then bump 4 skills +1 level from the start, or even perhaps +2 in certain?

So, more options, more potential, and now basically better starting characters on average each time they create a character unless the person is unlucky, or reckless(which I doubt after spending Karma to obtain these bumped skills).  Now, using these starting at "Apprentice" or higher skills, they will advance quicker than they already did normally, obtaining their wealth and items and coded power at a quicker rate with their OOC knowledge now combined with their OOCly increased power.


Perhaps its just because I am on the outside looking in, but for some reason it bothers me a bit.

There are those of us who will never play a magicker in our Arm career, perhaps, and we've learned to accept that.  But, now when we play our mundane human warriors, we have to accept the fact that someone else, who has enjoyed tremendously powerful characters in the past will start with a coded advantage of higher skills and special sub-guild bonuses.

:/

[Desertman]

Also, the ability for subguild crafting classes being able to master their given crafting art via spending points it awesome sauce.

As it stands, I always felt like subguild crafting was more of an investment than it was worth because you can't master them.

I am a little dissapointed that you can't spend these points to master a branched crafting skill after the fact.

For example, a ranger being able to master "tanning" or "fletchery" or something like that because its a crafting skill that was obtained after character generation.

Special app request after the fact perhaps?

"Hey, I just branched tanning and would like to spend my points I have in stock so that I will be able to master this crafting skill."

Thoughts?

No mere thoughts have been given, but flat out denials of anything beyond character generation.  Besides, you don't spend points to let subguilds master their crafts, you spend points to get subguilds that can master their crafts.  Subtle difference in wording but a world of difference in implementation.

Reading back up you are correct. Meh. Sadness.

[Kalai]

I like the idea of standardized awarding of Karma, the new rules for obtaining it as well.

The one thing I am not sure about is the fact that most people with Karma have the advantage of OOC knowledge better than my own.  I struggle in the world when I don't know how to make the best obsidian, or where to find essential and powerful items, ect.  Or the map itself and moving between cities the best way, or any of that.  They already had the advantage of being able to start characters that have advanced races/class combinations.

But, at least when they started a Mundane Human Assassin(like I potentially could) they all started with Novice Backstab, ect and the same set of skills as myself(unless it was a special app).  Now though, they will have the potential to create these basic classes, and with 5 Karma be able to then bump 4 skills +1 level from the start, or even perhaps +2 in certain?

So, more options, more potential, and now basically better starting characters on average each time they create a character unless the person is unlucky, or reckless(which I doubt after spending Karma to obtain these bumped skills).  Now, using these starting at "Apprentice" or higher skills, they will advance quicker than they already did normally, obtaining their wealth and items and coded power at a quicker rate with their OOC knowledge now combined with their OOCly increased power.


Perhaps its just because I am on the outside looking in, but for some reason it bothers me a bit.

There are those of us who will never play a magicker in our Arm career, perhaps, and we've learned to accept that.  But, now when we play our mundane human warriors, we have to accept the fact that someone else, who has enjoyed tremendously powerful characters in the past will start with a coded advantage of higher skills and special sub-guild bonuses.

:/

To be fair ... we already did. Pretty sure certain sponsored roles start off over 'absolute novice'.   And there are always people who've been around a bit when you start, unless the world just burned down. There's not really enough of a player base to get marginalized, and clans give a ton of support in OOC knowledge areas. Also clans, like employers, don't want someone who has necessarily mastered a skill but someone with the essential knowledge for them to train up proper. As a non-karma PC, you've got a ton of that sort of potential and can find a place for yourself easily even with more experienced people around.   It already happens plenty!

Of course, I'm not resigned to never having karma, but I'm still young. When I turn 21 or 23/24 (whatnot) I can tell people 'hey, my brain's mature now, restart my trust meter - also do you know any places hiring computer science majors'.   

[AreteX]

The call and postings for Sponsored roles are fine with bumped skills.  I can even apply for those and perhaps actually get one of them!

What I meant by the majority of my post was the fact that now skills will be bumped for everyday mundane characters with no sponsorship required whatsoever.

I suppose it isn't that big of a deal, really, its just one more thing that not having Karma that will make me sad.

[Dalmeth]

Reading back up you are correct. Meh. Sadness.

Oh, don't be sad!  Think about it : these new subguilds might have the leeway allow you to get the supporting skills that are oh-so valuable.  Like a spearmaker with the ability to make poles.  That would be progress there.

[Kalai]

The call and postings for Sponsored roles are fine with bumped skills.  I can even apply for those and perhaps actually get one of them!

What I meant by the majority of my post was the fact that now skills will be bumped for everyday mundane characters with no sponsorship required whatsoever.

I suppose it isn't that big of a deal, really, its just one more thing that not having Karma that will make me sad.

I think you can still potentially special app for them. If I desperately want master-level flower arranging (or whatever extended subguild) to be possible for me I might try that.

That is a valid use of special application, right?

[X-D]

Well Aretex.

You can take comfort in the thought that people with bumped skills will (according to many people on here) Play more carefully and so not improve as fast.


And does anybody else other then me find amusement in the number of people who think people don't play a PC carefully because it is not karma or whatever?

[HavokBlue]

I hope Master Chef is one of the options.

Master house servant! I seriously want a ranger / master house servant.

Finally, rangers can master floristry!

[janeshephard]

More players won't even choose to try some karma roles because of the upfront investment, instead choosing easier things that they know that can do.  Why play a caster when instead there is the choice to play of a mundane role with a karma subguild and/or skill boosts that have no inherent ic restrictions that come with them.

I disagree with the premise. If players want to play a role they've never tried before, they'll play that role. They'll just treat the role more carefully, as though it were a special application that they really don't want to lose.

PKs are going to take on more meaning. Murderers (killing without a good reason) will be treated with much more contempt. This is assuming you have some empathy

[Old Kank]

PKs are going to take on more meaning. Murderers (killing without a good reason) will be treated with much more contempt. This is assuming you have some empathy

Targeting people because they're a new face and only have a handful of gear will take a little more thought, too.

[Feco]

These all sound like awesome features to me.

[Desertman]

Reading back up you are correct. Meh. Sadness.

Oh, don't be sad!  Think about it : these new subguilds might have the leeway allow you to get the supporting skills that are oh-so valuable.  Like a spearmaker with the ability to make poles.  That would be progress there.

Your optimisim is catchy.

Good point.

I wonder if we will have the option with our current characters to make little tweaks based off of the new system once it is implemented.

I mean really, I would at least like the option to give my current pc a little tweak here and there when the new system goes live since I would have had more/better customization options if the system had existed when I made the PC.

[Reiloth]

Reading back up you are correct. Meh. Sadness.

Oh, don't be sad!  Think about it : these new subguilds might have the leeway allow you to get the supporting skills that are oh-so valuable.  Like a spearmaker with the ability to make poles.  That would be progress there.

Your optimisim is catchy.

Good point.

I wonder if we will have the option with our current characters to make little tweaks based off of the new system once it is implemented.

I mean really, I would at least like the option to give my current pc a little tweak here and there when the new system goes live since I would have had more/better customization options if the system had existed when I made the PC.

I think Adhira said a few times that none of the changes would affect existing PC's. I agree, it'd be cool, but it kind of goes in line with the theory behind karma anyways. You don't get to reap the benefits until after your current PC dies or you store.

[Incognito]

I'll wait to experiment with the new system before commenting.

However, I am sure Staff is gonna be swamped with repeated Account Notes requests, by players who want to keep reviewing their Karma/CGP status and changes thereof.

I don't know if anything's planned to take that into account - but I think an online Account Notes option available for players to check directly from the Request Tool will help greatly.

And also, if an account is awarded or reduced any CGPs, an email should be automatically sent to them, with the details (whatever the Staff sees fit of course i.e. (Name of Staff member who changed CGP, date, time, reason for awarding/reducing, amount awarded/reduced, special mention of event or RP which led to the award/reduction, tips for future course of action to rectify (in case of reduction).....etc. )

Also, as far as the longevity part of the CGP award system goes, I think it might get somewhat problematic. In the sense, a PC's longevity depends on various things:
1) The location s/he plays in - a city-based merchant could easily manage to live much longer than others. A rinthi assassin would have things harder. A rinthi c-elf would probably have things slightly harder than their non-elven counterparts. A tablelands-based sorceror might have it even harder.
2) The role s/he plays - Again, a non-controversial role would definitely be advantageous to play, to have a longer life span, as compared to the opposite.
3) Guild and Race will also factor into this.
4) Exposure: If I was a member of the Guild, and I was in touch with some members of the militia or an Oashi aide, my chances of death would be higher than if I was a member of the Guild who just stayed inside the alleys all the time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, Longevity is quite a tricky and subjective attribute to quantify. Laying down an arbitrary number (for example: atleast 15 days played in-game, or, atleast 2 months RL since char-creation) - may not be the correct way to go about it.

Last but not the least, this may lead to players just sitting holed up in "safe-spots" biding their time, just so they can reach the required time-limit to achieve the Longevity CGP.

[X-D]

Well, on the longevity.

First, it is only 1 point.

Second, it is not an automated system. Staff still has to award that point and I am pretty sure they are not going to award the point because you made a PC and logged in and idled in the gaj an hour a day for 6 months or anything like that.

Thirdly, I don't see anywhere that there is to be a hard and fast rule on it anyway. Not like If your PC logs 15 days played and or 3 months played, you get 1 point.

Far more likely that the situation of the PC is looked at, and likely, more then 1 PC. If you have 6 1 week PCs then 1 6 month PC then another 5 1 week PCs, I would not think you would earn the longevity point. More likely that staff will look at your average.

There have been people who have had first PCs last more then a year, but to me that does not prove you have the longevity. It only shows it for that one PC, not game knowledge as a whole.

But still, it is only 1 point.

[Reiloth]

Well, on the longevity.

First, it is only 1 point.

Second, it is not an automated system. Staff still has to award that point and I am pretty sure they are not going to award the point because you made a PC and logged in and idled in the gaj an hour a day for 6 months or anything like that.

Thirdly, I don't see anywhere that there is to be a hard and fast rule on it anyway. Not like If your PC logs 15 days played and or 3 months played, you get 1 point.

Far more likely that the situation of the PC is looked at, and likely, more then 1 PC. If you have 6 1 week PCs then 1 6 month PC then another 5 1 week PCs, I would not think you would earn the longevity point. More likely that staff will look at your average.

There have been people who have had first PCs last more then a year, but to me that does not prove you have the longevity. It only shows it for that one PC, not game knowledge as a whole.

But still, it is only 1 point.

I was under the impression it was longevity of the Player, which is why it was 1 point. I MIGHT BE WRONG!!

[Incognito]

The original posts by Adhira and Morgenes talk about how CGP points will be awarded once the new system is implemented.

What I'd like to know is, how will this affect basic Karma point gain/loss?

For example, if I'm a newbie with 1 karma, and I manage to earn 8 CGP points with my current PC, will my karma be changed to 8?
or
If I am an existing player with 8 karma, and I don't manage to earn any karma with my current PC, will my karma be changed to 1?

OR
Will Karma just become obsolete, and CGP become the sole dominant system? i.e. A player with 8 karma, who spends 8 CGP on his PC, will be forced to re-earn all 8 CGPs before he can create another 8 karma PC? If so, what we'll be doing is - changing from a long-term Karma earning system, to, a system which forces players to earn CGP from each PC to the next.

In effect, even if said player has experience with the magick system, knows about Zalanthan society, communicates well with Staff and other clan members, contributes to the game, shows leadership qualities and shows a decent ability to keep his/her PC alive, the player will not be given any long-term benefits, unless s/he continues to repeatedly show the same qualities with each new PC played.

Will greatly appreciate some in-depth clarifications from the Staff on these points. Thank you.