Elves and Wagons

[lordcooper]

I think elves could ride a skimmer.

If they refuse mounts out of a sense of pride, then fair enough.  They can run on land.

They can't travel the silt sea without a skimmer, so they could use one.  That shouldn't be shameful, it's allowing them to do something they otherwise simply could not do.  That isnt the same as being lazy and riding an inix.

[Qzzrbl]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html

This was specifically brought up at the staff meeting, and we discussed it for a bit.

Answer:  no.

This was specifically brought up at the staff meeting.

Answer:  no.

We discussed it for a bit.

Answer:  no.

Answer:  no.

Staff meeting.

Answer:  no.

This was specifically brought up.

Answer:  no.

[Kiara]

What a logical, cogent response.

[Qzzrbl]

What a logical, cogent response.

That's why they pay me the big bucks....

But yeah, Staff seem to have already made a decision on this.

And as much as I'd like to see elves riding skimmers, it ain't likely to happen.

When staff say, "Mutant is not an acceptable sdesc keyword anymore.", people stop making characters with "mutant" in their sdesc.

When staff say, "Don't summon magickal beasties to practice skills on.", people stop summoning magickal beasties to practice on.

And when the staff say, "Elves aren't allowed to ride skimmers.", people stop making elves with the intention of ever riding a skimmer with 'em.

Simple.

::Edited to add::

Besides, I've never seen many people clamor to hop on a skimmer with an elf anyhow.... I don't think the documentation that everybody's followed so far staying the same will change much.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Update: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39620.0.html

Nyr says the answer is still no.

[Synthesis]

I think some of you who are quoting the staff need to re-evaluate the Original Post in this thread:

Hey guys,

I personally think Staff's decision to have elves look onto Wagons as they look onto Mounts is kind of ridiculous.

I know it's beating a dead horse in a way, but I wonder what you as players think about this now, several months after the decision was made. Both as players of elves, and those that play with elves.

We (who are paying attention to things) already know what the goddamn staff opinion is on the matter.  The argument isn't about what the staff opinion is or isn't--it's about whether there could possibly be a better policy.

[Jingo]

This discussion makes me sad.

And lame, irritating rules are still lame and irritating.

[HavokBlue]

Personally, I look at it like this:

Would an elf find it shameful to travel on a Skimmer? No, probably not.

Would an elf be considered batshit insane by his peers if he traveled on a Skimmer? Probably, but that's a given for anyone who's on a Skimmer.

[Qzzrbl]

I think some of you who are quoting the staff need to re-evaluate the Original Post in this thread:

Hey guys,

I personally think Staff's decision to have elves look onto Wagons as they look onto Mounts is kind of ridiculous.

I know it's beating a dead horse in a way, but I wonder what you as players think about this now, several months after the decision was made. Both as players of elves, and those that play with elves.

We (who are paying attention to things) already know what the goddamn staff opinion is on the matter.  The argument isn't about what the staff opinion is or isn't--it's about whether there could possibly be a better policy.

Oh.... I really should stop posting in threads without reading the op.

x-X

[Yam]

Would an elf wear really big shoes and go out on the silt sea?

[Jingo]

Jingo's take:

I think that if city-elves were to get a bonus on outdoor roads, I could be happy and elves would have a better time running next to wagons.

[Spider]

It's kinda late and I don't feel like digging through and quoting something at the moment.

Skimmers DO exist. NPC's/PC's DO use them. Therefore, it is not out of the realm of proper role play.

If you look at the docs...

"All elves have a cultural bent toward both wandering and thievery."

What in the hell is stopping a City Elf from a) leaving the city b) traveling the silt sea (aside from the cliche survival argument).?

And why would I not choose another race aside from an elf to do my silt surfing? Because Elven role play rocks!

[Marshmellow]

With the OP asking, "Should this be changed?"  To that, I simply say, "I don't think so.  It's fine how it is."

[Qzzrbl]

Eesh.... Some of you guys make it sound like c-elves are just thiefy, haggly, screw-you-out-of-a-deal types.

Which they are, but they have personalities too....

There are fun-loving elves, there are thrill-seeking elves, there are spice-addicted elves, there are alcoholic elves....

They're not just a bunch overly-cautious, crazily-cultural, mega-proud people.... I mean, sure, they're proud about their stupid legs and how much smarter than everything else they are.... But that's about it.

Give 'em skimmers.

[Nyr]

I don't think an elf would look wistfully out on the Silt Sea, wishing they could travel it--no more than they'd look up at the sky, sigh, and say "Golly, if I couldn't fly through the air, I'd just kill myself."  If more elves did that, though, Zalanthas would be a better place.

[Qzzrbl]

So there's no such thing as an adventurous elf who gets giddy, and would pursue the thought of finding enough treasure to buy Allanak in obscure, dangerous, far-away places?

[Nyr]

Do you have a point associating yours to mine?  I don't get what an elven suicide joke has to do with elves having personality.   

[Qzzrbl]

I don't get what an elven suicide joke has to do with elves having personality.   

Me neither.

<_<

I just have my srs-bizness-give-elves-skimmers-plz-kthxbai hat on right now, missed the joke entirely. x-X

[Reiloth]

I think a better policy would be:

To have Elves that use Mounts to be considered certifiable, not only by elves but by those of other races.

To have Elves that ride in Wagons be considered really queer (See: Odd) by other elves, but looked on with a sigh of relief by other races. ("Oh, he's not -that- kind of elf that looks back on traditions of his forefathers that don't even apply to him anymore...Great! We don't need to stop to rest every twenty seconds.")

To have Elves that ride in Skimmers to be either grizzled badass pirates or considered 100% crazy. I mean, come on. Why would they want to ride on a Skimmer unless they had a knife beteween their teeth, an eyepatch, and possibly a peg-leg?

Instead of:

We as Staff will nom nom nom you if you do anything like this! You -can't- do any of these things...Well...Because...Your race was born thinking that way! Hah! Take that! But...They have none of the -benefits- really...Of...Well. They're proud, but stupid, let's leave it at that!

Sure, Staff policy is no. I just think its a tad ham-fisted and old skewl, and could be revised to accommodate a greater level of RP in Armageddon, rather than limiting it for no other real reason other than "That's the way it's always been, and will always be". Elves have been broken for a while, as have Pickpockets. We may never fix them, as Arm 2.0 looms on the horizon (Before I grow gray hairs). But heck, isn't it just easy to say "Nah, let's not bother" rather than "Hmm, maybe you're right. Elves really -are- broken as a race, and maybe we can do something to fix them."

[Spoon]

Seriously, there's an elf with a peg-leg somewhere. Where does that all fit in?

[Barzalene]

I think nine out of ten times staff comes to a decision and everyone (me) says, "Ok. good enough." But then we hit that other one time, and I really wish that we had a forum to dialogue with staff. Maybe the decision wouldn't change, but at least we'd (I'd) feel heard. This is that time in ten.

I'm not even certain that I think the staff policy is wrong. I kind of agree that if you want to ride in wagons and silt skimmers you can play anything but an elf. But I also think that this ties in to the question of city elf / delf and the way that city elfing becomes more limited. (Again, I'm not sure even that's a problem.) I just think it would be nice to have a discussion. You know the staff and the players would talk about how they see the whole c-elf/delf question, and see if anyone could be persuaded to give some ground. Maybe end up in a place that isn't right where we're standing, or not.

[Nyr]

We've had discussion, perhaps unto the point of the death of this horse.  Staff presents their side, players present their side, and in this case, staff has already stated things (or at least I have) and players have already stated things.  It's not a big deal, but it is being blown up into a big deal.  Repeating that you don't like a staff policy or explanation of documentation doesn't mean staff must change opinion on it or compromise in any way.  The precursor to this thread was started last year (in discussion of a staff ruling on skimmers, after they got added codedly into the game as something everyone could have) and players just resurrected it by saying how much it sucks.  Sure, that's one way of explaining your argument, but just stating "wow this sucks and I hate it and I wish it would change" isn't getting anywhere.

Now I'm seeing "elves should be able to use mounts" and "elves should be able to ride in wagons" and "elves should be able to ride on skimmers."  Really?  I won't offer the slippery slope argument that "well, I guess elves should be psionicists" and "of course, elves should be able to work for all nobles," or the counter of "elves should only exist in the 'rinth and anyone who goes southside will be stored."  Honestly, elves are not unplayable, and this is a proposed change to documentation that flies in the face of, well...the majority that has existed for elven roleplay documentation.

That's not to say I don't think that some things shouldn't be discussed, such as new policies that need player input, or new documentation to cover recent IC policies or something like that.  Rehashing old documentation shouldn't need staff to chime in and negotiate on the behalf of it; it stands on its own and was approved at some point by the overlords (producers) of the game.  If you want to contest old documentation or new interpretations of it, come up with compelling and documented arguments for why you want to do so.  If the answer is still no (which it is in this case), then that's cool, you presented your side of it and you don't like the outcome--but such is the nature of discussion, right?  There was a discussion, no?  Sure, we see the playerbase points in (almost) every presented issue; you take issue with something and you want us to fix it.  Many times, we do compromise.

This isn't a case in which I see us compromising and in a similar (related) issue I stated as much.

I believe this and the city elf vs desert elf thing has been brought up more than a few times over the past five years in various threads.  I don't foresee us changing position on this.  City elves (now) actually have a much better chance of attaining the skills that a desert elf ranger might have (storm code changes + direction sense), but they will not become full-fledged rangers.

Another way of looking at this is that when you pick a city elf, you are picking an entire culture of elf that is raised in urban environments.  Per documentation and established tradition, the differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their different lifestyles--there is only one elven race.  These differences are reinforced by the code.  They mean that desert-elves will not ever develop the skills to sneak and hide inside an urban environment.  They will not ever become assassins that skulk about in cities, because desert elves culturally do not enjoy venturing into the nasty pits of the cities and any desert elf that did enjoy this would be breaking documentation and cultural guidelines--and they'd be stored.  (As desert elf staff, I'd never sign off on a special application going against the documentation in this way, myself.)

Conversely, city elves (by documentation) are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and usually possess lighter skin tones and less musculature (but not necessarily less strength) than their desert elf kin.  They may be codedly prevented from becoming a ranger, but this coded prevention is based on the rule, not exceptions to the rule (which special applications can be used for, though I do not guarantee your success at this).  If we made all things possible in the game without any automatic coded restrictions or oversight on new applications, we could go ahead and scrap all of the documentation.  (This is hyperbolic; I only write it to make a point.)  If you have a strong case for a city elf ranger, I would suggest a special application, keeping in mind that we usually will hold to the rule rather than creating exceptions to the rule.  (You'd better have a good app, in other words.  If you do get rejected, it isn't because you suck as a player and need to quit Armageddon.  The standards are very high for playing a role so far out of the world's cultural norm.)

This is an example of a race in the game that has limits on it based on documentation reinforcement.  There are other limitations as well.  Psionicists can only be human.  Mul magick users are rare to the point of being unheard of (therefore codedly rejected, and require special applications now).  Were any player to complain that their city elves could not be psionicists, we would point to the documentation on psionicists.  Were any player to complain that they could not make a mul magicker even though they had 7 karma, we would point to the documentation on muls (and suggest they special app, which would be reviewed to high standards as well).  We also have limits that are not coded, but still enforced both culturally and through regular policing in-game.  I could go on about this, but I do not think it relates to city elves and desert elves and their coded limitations (brought about to enforce cultural documentation).

For those of you that zone out when you see more than 2 paragraphs of writing, a brief summary:
tl,dr -- nyr hates city elves and linked liek 2 million threads on it
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html (old)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31564.0.html (newer)
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37028.0.html (far more possible with direction sense, now)

This is why we're not changing city-elves to have ranger skills.  This is also why we're not changing elven roleplay documentation to account for using wagons or skimmers.  You may dislike it and disagree, but if you play an elf outside of the established documentation without a special application for it, your PC will be stored--and unlike your silt skimmer, your karma will be docked. 

"Oh noes, my desert-elf can't be an assassin!  How can you do this?"
We limit by code the things that the cultural bent for desert elves would allow for; should you have an exception for this, apply via special application (noting that it would not be accepted 99% of the time).
"Oh noes, my city-elf can't be a ranger!  How can you do this?"
See above, apply to city-elves; should you have an exception for this, apply via special application (noting that it would not be accepted 99% of the time).
"Oh noes, my elf can't travel through the air!  How else would he travel through the air if not by magick?"
He or she wouldn't.  He or she would either do so by direct magick or not at all (and by direct magick, I mean that they would not use a flying mount--magickal or otherwise--or a flying wagon--magickal or otherwise.  They probably would not rely on someone else's magick for this, either).
"Oh noes, my elf can't travel the silt!  How else would he or she travel the silt if not by a skimmer?"
He or she wouldn't travel the silt unless he or she could do so without depending on something else for transportation apart from his or her own two feet.  Sure--try and run fast enough to stay atop the silt.  It is not as though any elves have to go out on the silt to survive, no more than they have to use wagons to survive or mounts to survive.  Til that becomes a reality, I don't see a good reason to change established documentation.

[Nyr]

tl;dr version:

nyr hates elves omg i bet he just admins delf clans to liek kill elfs and shits

[mansa]

Why not code up some echos when an elf mounts an animal or rides on a wagon.

Something internal that forces you to feel shame every 5 minutes or so when standing in a wagon room OR riding a mount.

[Nyr]

Mounts/mounting them, sure. Wagons would be tricky as by arm 1 code any enterable object functions similarly.