Elves and Wagons

[Nahara]

I'm honestly under the impression that -anyone- (except maybe a focused dwarf) needs to be insane to ride a silt skimmer, this isn't unique to elves.

[Synthesis]

City-elves wouldn't wantonly roam the deserts even if they could ride, due to their elven mentality.

The city is their "home turf," and as such, they wouldn't stray far from it unless a) they were with their buddies or b) the need was exceptional.  I can imagine an elf riding out to say, harvest a scrab, after which he hurriedly makes his way back to the safety of the city.  He certainly wouldn't kill a half-dozen scrabs, camp overnight in the Salt Flats, ride to Tuluk to sell the scrab shells, pick up some spice in Luir's on his way back down, take a detour through the Red Desert to collect raptor bits, then return to Allanak after a week had passed.

If I had my way, they would still be unable to select the ranger option in character generation to reflect the fact that despite using mounts for short forays into the desert, they do not spend enough time there to be masters of that particular environment.  There are several "outdoorsy" subclasses that can adequately account for the passing familiarity that a city-elf might acquire.

As far as limiting it to wagons and skimmers:  I could accept that skimmers are a different class of transportation, since there is no other mundane way of traversing silt.  However, adding the ability to ride in skimmers wouldn't have much of a practical effect on the game.  Mounts and wagons are too similar to separate in a way that would be philosophically pleasing.

[Spoon]

The city is their "home turf," and as such, they wouldn't stray far from it unless a) they were with their buddies or b) the need was exceptional.  I can imagine an elf riding out to say, harvest a scrab, after which he hurriedly makes his way back to the safety of the city.  He certainly wouldn't kill a half-dozen scrabs, camp overnight in the Salt Flats, ride to Tuluk to sell the scrab shells, pick up some spice in Luir's on his way back down, take a detour through the Red Desert to collect raptor bits, then return to Allanak after a week had passed.

This is subjective, though fine for a specific tribe/individual mindset. A city elf might well take the tour your describe because they are proud of being able to do so. An elf with no legs would be proud of his ability to crawl around on his hands.

Personally, I find it easier to get into the elven mindset when there isn't a hard-coded advantage. It is an irrational level of pride, and that's what makes them elves.

All of this is aside from the perceived coded difficulties of playing city elves, which have been done to death and don't need repeating.

Edit: In order to be a hypocrite, I think I'll start another thread about city elves and coded abilities.

[Nyr]

That's a more palatable argument; I appreciate a plan and background to a proposal.  Thanks!

To elaborate:  I mean that I'd rather anyone proposing anything have a good plan to go along with it (though the snarky tone isn't needed and will weigh against any valid points you may have).  I applaud anyone putting their ideas out there and also backing them up by fleshing them out.

Staff have had the same arguments last year before we actually said that's our policy.  In the end, the majority of staff was in favor of not retrofitting elven roleplay documents, with two producers weighing in on the side of no retrofitting.  It's not like we just threw this out there without thinking about it.  It was a close enough argument, and good points were raised, but it was shot down.  Such is life.

[Marshmellow]

Synthesis, good work putting together the proposal and defending it... but I'd be happier if things stayed the same myself.  I wouldn't be opposed to a change, but I think the way things are now is good.  I think city elves are quite playable as is.  I've found it strange when city elves get jobs that require outdoor time... and I found it strange that their bosses hired them in the first place... and I found it strange when the bosses still required outdoor time of someone that plainly wasn't going to be all that great to have along on long trips.  I think that sort of city elf shouldn't be more possible.  It should be strange.

[Kiara]

How many clans hire elves?

[Talia]

A handful. There's employment for elves in more than one clan both north and south, let's say.

[Kiara]

A handful. There's employment for elves in more than one clan both north and south, let's say.

Can you name some? I'm honestly drawing a blank. The HK/Akai/Sandsas don't count, as they push characters towards shady lives. What about something more public?

I know the Byn does (sometimes) but city elves are limited in this aspect.

[Nyr]

Clans that city elves can join: 

T'zai Byn, Akai Sjir (though they are an elven group), Jaxa Pah (though they are an elven group), Kurac.

[Talia]

Can you name some? I'm honestly drawing a blank. The HK/Akai/Sandsas don't count, as they push characters towards shady lives. What about something more public?

I know the Byn does (sometimes) but city elves are limited in this aspect.

Haruch Kemad are no longer a playable clan. Akai Sjirr can take any of the city-based guilds and keep them well-occupied, as can the Jaxa Pah. Yes, the Byn hires elves, and of course that is outdoorsy. There are other clans that hire elves as well for outdoorsy-type roles, though this may fluctuate based on the PCs/staff of the time. Elves can also, of course, be bards of Poets' Circle, Rusarla Circle specifically.

The basic options for city elves are the same as the basic options for any PC: City life or outdoors life. And as I said, there are at least a couple of options for elves in both Allanak and Tuluk.

Edited: WHAT NYR SAID TOO. (Dang him for sniping me again!)

[Kiara]

Kurac! I knew there was a big one I was forgetting.

Don't you think that's a bit limited?

It seems like only allowing elves in (mostly) elf-only clans limits their exposure to the player-base.

I personally get a little bored after roleplaying with myself for hours on end.

My reason for voicing such a concern:

If city-elves had more options, maybe riding in wagons/on skimmers wouldn't be such a big deal after all.

[Talia]

Don't you think that's a bit limited?

No, I don't. I think there is plenty of variety and opportunity for city-elves.  Of course it's not as much variety and opportunity as exists for human PCs; oh well? That's the nature of playing an unwanted, untrusted race. It's a niche role, and I am personally opposed to the idea that it needs to not be a niche role.

[Kiara]

Oh well?

...

[Lizzie]

Yes, city elves can join the byn and when they go on a ride out of the city, the entire crew is 100% dependent on the elf's stamina points, which will ultimately be far lower, and regen slower, than the inixes/war beetles they are riding. Especially if the elf chooses to actually use the RUN command to keep up with the inixes. Or, they can buy a tent, which would take that elf maybe..2 RL months worth of contracts to pay for. If the contract involves a skimmer or wagon-ramp duty, the elf cannot join.

Yes, Kurac allows city elves to join but again - the elf is not allowed to stand guard in the wagon and unless he has very specific guild/subuild, will be of absolutely no use whatsoever as a "scout" on advance run. Again, skimmers are not an option for said elf anymore, so if Kurac is going skimming, the elf must stay behind.

It used to be that an elven employee of either, would be able to decide for themselves if it was acceptable for them to stand guard on a wagon, or go out on a skimmer.  The staff has taken away that option. I don't like that at all.

[Nyr]

The staff has taken away that option. I don't like that at all.

Did we change the documentation on elves?

[Riya OniSenshi]

There's no such thing as anti-racial discrimination employment laws in Arm. Don't expect human-run organizations to think a celf is as good to hire as a human, even if the human is less qualified.

Just because the Byn hires elfs, for example, doesn't mean PC Sergeant #008509485 will if that pc doesn't like elfs. Same could be true for Kurac, too... Not really sure on them.

[X-D]

I can think of one other northern clan that can hire elves as well...but since staff has not mentioned it I won't either.....of course can does not mean will.

[Dar]

Can you name some? I'm honestly drawing a blank. The HK/Akai/Sandsas don't count, as they push characters towards shady lives.

Elves need to be "pushed" towards shady lives?

[Jingo]

Once again.

Jingo's take:

I think that if city-elves were to get a bonus on outdoor roads, I could be happy and elves would have a better time running next to wagons.

Why this has barely been discussed is beyond my understanding.

And I would hate to see elves on mounts, just because it's a sacred cow I worship.

[Nyr]

I'll look at that one specifically as I do not think it has been investigated.

[Malifaxis]

Pitching in my two cents, Jingo's on to something.  If c-elves got at least some sort of a discount on any road travel outside of cities, they still wouldn't be the far-running fearmongers that d-elves are.  They wouldn't intrude on that niche that d-elves have overmuch, and if they started to make an impact, I'm sure the wild ones could come up with an appropriate (IE: arrow filled) response to the incursion.

C-elves would still be vastly limited in range due to the stamina differential between the two, but they would have the option of getting more than five inix-lengths outside of the gates before having to rest for a full day.

[Spoon]

Glad it's being looked into, here's some references (haven't checked them all, was just a quick search and paste).

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38596.msg540291.html#msg540291
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34139.msg424735.html#msg424735
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19828.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30442.0.html

Not to take away Jingo's thunder but it gets brought up in most city elf threads. Also the idea of giving them some kind of skills to make them more at home in the city. Sure they have some now, but most people don't even notice as they pick a guild with those skills anyway.

So city elves have chosen to live in the cities. I think they should have a real knack for survival in such places, because why the hell would they stay? It's not exactly safe, as they're constantly thrown in the arena and persecuted by soldiers, nobles, templars... I think they simply be better at surviving in cities. Given a few buffs/skills that really make a difference in the city.

What I think this would do is reinforce the concept of city elves. Shit, if they could all hide and sneak people would REALLY start to despise them, for example. It would actually make every city elf a considerable pain in the arse for everyone else in the city. I think this needs another thread. An no-one's allowed to talk about wagons or silt skimmers. I'm in a hurry though, so feel free to start a discussion elsewhere if anyone finds the idea interesting.

[Qzzrbl]

Posting here from my phone, couldn't really read many of the more recent posts.... But! After thinking on it some, specifically Nyr's mention of retconning some stuff on the off-chance there's gonna be changes to elves.... Would a retcon really be necessary?

The way I see it, elves haven't been able to do these things for the past several hundred IG years. It wouldn't require a retcon if elves riding mounts, wagons, skimmers, what-have-you, was put in as a recent trend among c-elves IG.

Just a thought.

[Jingo]

Yeah, I think I got that idea from earlier in this thread. Anyways...

Don't you think that's a bit limited?

No, I don't. I think there is plenty of variety and opportunity for city-elves.  Of course it's not as much variety and opportunity as exists for human PCs; oh well? That's the nature of playing an unwanted, untrusted race. It's a niche role, and I am personally opposed to the idea that it needs to not be a niche role.

If this is the position of staff, then the fact that half-elves are welcome in more clans than elves seems like an oversight to me. I doubt most humans would "want" or "trust" one group more than the other.

I would also like to point out that the social stigma surrounding elves and half-elves is not explicitly present in the racial documentation. It only seems to exist as player-staff consensus in game and here on the gdb. I'm not advocating against it, but I can't find it.

[Sam]

As far as elves and mounts, we could give them a medium cap to the riding skill. This could be because they have lost touch with the wilds and don't know how to interact properly or control it. Hell, they wouldn't even interact with their own mount until they pulled it from the stable, used it, and then put it back. Like a tool. Keep in mind that I still don't think they should ride mounts, but I could agree to something like this.

It is already easier to ride on the road than not. We would just have to give them a bonus to not falling off of the thing.