Elves and Wagons

[Kiara]

And I think that even city elves are not fond of being cornered. To them rooftops and narrow streets are as easily navigable as open desert is to d-elves.

There is a difference between being cornered verses feeling claustrophobic.

[Delstro]

Elves would not trust a human with their life until that human has been through countless meaningless and meaningful tests.
Why would an elf trust a mount to do the same? A mount would pass most tests only because it could care less. A mount would fail most tests that it is interested in.
How could you properly test a wagon to be depended on when your life depends on it?
How could you properly test a skimmer to be depended on when your life depends COMPLETELY on it?

[Kiara]

How could you properly test a wagon to be depended on when your life depends on it?

The same way an elf tests any other inanimate object, such as a dagger: By using it.

How could you properly test a skimmer to be depended on when your life depends COMPLETELY on it?

The same way an elf tests any other inanimate object, such as a dagger: By using it.

Inanimate objects != sentient beings.

Sentient beings can be distrusted.
Inanimate objects cannot. Well...they can, but then we'd be talking about a level of paranoia that I think simply doesn't exist in the elven mindset.

[spicemustflow]

And I think that even city elves are not fond of being cornered. To them rooftops and narrow streets are as easily navigable as open desert is to d-elves.

There is a difference between being cornered verses feeling claustrophobic.

I think that desert elves feel more than claustrophobia when they enter cities. In fact, elves are not claustrophobic (or they'd never take shelter in a cave or a canyon or whatever). I think it's just that they don't like it when their narrow space has only one way out (that they know of). Alright, enough about d-elves from me.

[Synthesis]

Elves would not trust a human with their life until that human has been through countless meaningless and meaningful tests.
Why would an elf trust a mount to do the same? A mount would pass most tests only because it could care less. A mount would fail most tests that it is interested in.
How could you properly test a wagon to be depended on when your life depends on it?
How could you properly test a skimmer to be depended on when your life depends COMPLETELY on it?

If you're going to extend elven trials of trust to every inanimate object that an elf could ever use, things are going to get very confusing for folks playing elves.

[Kiara]

>A foreign presence contacts your mind.

>The sticky-fingered elf sense you a telepathic message:
    "Help, I'm stuck in the desert. Come find me!"

>You think:
    "I'm a fucking shovel."

[Delstro]

I am not, I am just extending it to the things that elves would ride and would then depend on greatly.

[Kiara]

I am not, I am just extending it to the things that elves would ride and would then depend on greatly.

You can't extend it to a silt skimmer, because it's not alive.

That's kinda my point...

[Marshmellow]

What's next, making elves have to trust not just inanimate objects to but basic principles and laws?  "I don't believe in you any more, gravity," save versus the illusion, float away.

[spicemustflow]

I am not, I am just extending it to the things that elves would ride and would then depend on greatly.

Elves wouldn't fail to notice that other races depend on those things and don't usually die as a result.

[X-D]

There is only ONE kind of elf.

Specially when talking mindset, which, in this case we are.

Also, Mounts are not inanimate objects, Wagons are not either since they have animals pulling them and humans controlling them, Skimmers are even worse, they have humans controlling them and what, the wind, an element known to be fickle powering it.

And man, some of you are pretty bad when it comes to understanding docs, I mean, I've been called a horrible person that argues semantics when not needed but sheesh. The docs clearly state that elves feel that EVERYBODY that has not passed trust trials or is not from the same tribe is out to get them. That is by definition, paranoia.  This would also apply to the skimmer...you don't think the silt sea is out to get you, you KNOW it. You know that there is no possible escape once you are away from land, that not even your nice strong running legs can save you, your ability to steal will not save you, your ability to manipulate people or certain objects will not save you.

No, elves don't ride skimmers.

[Delstro]

A wagon and skimmer aren't just inanimate tools. This thread wouldn't be here if they were just inanimate tools. I feel like you are arguing and don't want to change your mind because you have made it up. I will argue anyway. 'Because humans do it' is not a good reason for anything.

A mount is only a tool when you are pulling it behind you. When you ride it, a human might see it as a tool. An elf would see it as something that now controls the elf.

A wagon isn't like a hammer, cabinet, or piece of meat. When you ride in a wagon, the mounts that pull it, now control everything. Elves know that you can't control everything all of the time. Humans think they can control everything all of the time. Elves know better. Dwarves ride mounts and use wagons.because no risk is too great to complete their focus.


A skimmer isn't just some canoe over a still pond. A skimmer is something you depend on to go somewhere where you havn't seen to find something you havn't seen and then to get you back here. The risk is immeasurable. A human would take that risk,  just to take the risk. A dwarf would take the risk, because no risk is too great when dealing with their life's goal.

[spicemustflow]

No, elves don't ride skimmers.

What if a tribemate is kidnapped?

Alright, an example contrived as fuck, but don't you think that at least one elf from that tribe wouldn't say: "Fuck it, I ain't risking my life!"?

[X-D]

That would be more dependant on the tribe. Most tribes would just assume they are already dead.

Equal to getting swallowed by a mek....could Amos still be alive? Sure, but nobody is going to go check.

Too bad for Amos, his legs were not strong enough.

[FantasyWriter]

Here's one, just so that I can throw something into this hilarity.

What if a settlement was founded on the other side of the sea, and a group of elves decided they wanted to get in on it, so they could steal/cheat/con/etc from the other settlers?

[Kiara]

Alright X-D, you win. I'd rather not continue discussing this issue with you. I'm allergic to broken logic.

[Delstro]

To Kiara- What is broken about it?
FantasyWriter- What is wrong with the current group of easily swindled retard humans? I am sure humans would take skinny slaves over there. Those slaves would surely escape and harrass that settlement.

[spicemustflow]

That would be more dependant on the tribe. Most tribes would just assume they are already dead.

Equal to getting swallowed by a mek....could Amos still be alive? Sure, but nobody is going to go check.

Too bad for Amos, his legs were not strong enough.

Agreed, depends on both the tribe and the importance of the kidnapped, but the possibility is there. What if he knew something vital to the tribe's well being? I agree that only the bravest, most skilled or the craziest should have the guts to go on a rescue mission like that.

[X-D]

It is silly to call it broken logic. We are not talking about humans, but a mythical creature called in this game, an elf. A creature who, in his thinking, your logic is broken, not the other way around.

As to the village across the silt sea, the same applies to that as I wrote above. These are not dwarves with a focus to steal from people.
So, without something like a driving focus, would you take such a massive risk for unknown and questionable gain when you have more then a million people to steal from and con right next door?

Agreed, depends on both the tribe and the importance of the kidnapped, but the possibility is there. What if he knew something vital to the tribe's well being? I agree that only the bravest, most skilled or the craziest should have the guts to go on a rescue mission like that.

Alright, one can always come up with a situation where the rule might be broken. Assuming the correct tribe and the tribemembers believing that said elf is ALL important to the tribes continued survivals, they might try and find some way to save the kidnapped member...though, I think they would search for ways other then actually getting on a skimmer.

[Marauder Moe]

Kiara, the problem is you keep on trying to apply logic to thwart elven taboos which are clearly irrational.  Furthermore, the fact that you're attempting to thwart this aspect of elven culture is somewhat tantamount to trying to play a smart half-giant or a Tuluki noble who sleeps with commoners.

I'm still perplexed as to why this is such an issue anyway.  Why do you feel that elves need to be able to do these things?

[Wolfsong]

Why do elves wear boots?

[Riya OniSenshi]

Why do elves wear boots?

Several years back, those boots save the elf in question from a pack of raiding mantis.

Bad joke aside.
Elven taboos arn't irrational to the elf.

[Kiara]

Kiara, the problem is you keep on trying to apply logic to thwart elven taboos which are clearly irrational.  Furthermore, the fact that you're attempting to thwart this aspect of elven culture is somewhat tantamount to trying to play a smart half-giant or a Tuluki noble who sleeps with commoners.

I'm still perplexed as to why this is such an issue anyway.  Why do you feel that elves need to be able to do these things?

I've asked on more than one occasion for someone to produce documentation that specifically points how it is not in-character for an elf to ride on a silt skimmer. Perhaps you can for me?

Why do I feel elves need to do be allowed to ride silt skimmers? Because it could be fun for the players involved.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Search funtion for the win!

Most direct response from Nyr: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35325.0.html

The same thread as this: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35327.0.html

This thread lite!: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,26199.0.html

Thread about City Elves in Red Storm: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36989.0.html

[Marauder Moe]

There is no such specific documentation yet.  However, the taboo against transport by any means besides one's own power seems like it would plainly apply to skimmers.  The fact that there is no alternate means to traverse the silt sea is irrelevant.  Logical/scientific details distinguishing skimmers from other forms of shameful transport are irrelevant.  

IRL, when there is a question whether a particular act is taboo or not, cultures almost universally decide that it is, just to be safe if nothing else.

Elves are often willing to die rather than shame themselves or their tribe.  Seems like missing out on a little adventure/treasure/whatever from a silt sea expedition wouldn't be even close enough of a reason to risk crossing the boundaries of taboo.

Why do I feel elves need to do be allowed to ride silt skimmers? Because it could be fun for the players involved.

And it's no fun without elves?


Anyway, looks like Riya dug up a post where a Highlord has spoken, and the issue is settled for now, eh?