Not so random thoughts on apartments

[Ghost]

i sense there will be a lot of tables and beds open for sale soon

[Sinna]

Why do I think characters weren't thinking "You know, a nice tile-topped table will go nice in here..."  but rather the player going "How can I get more shit in here?"
Feel skeptical and a little grumpy.

[Thunkkin]

i sense there will be a lot of tables and beds open for sale soon

If you know what I mean!  Wink wink!  Nudge nudge!

[Synthesis]

i sense there will be a lot of tables and beds open for sale soon

What's more likely to happen is that all the independent crafters who were saving raw materials up for special orders by PCs will spend a few days madly spamcrafting it all and dumping it into shops so it doesn't just get zorched.

[Synthesis]

I'd also like to point out that the reduction in apartment size is quite annoying when taken in the context of how the crafting system works.

Unless you already have a gigantic compilation of crafting recipes, you basically have to keep one of everything you find around in your apartment, so you can play the Mix-and-Match Find the Hidden Recipe game.

I mean, fortunately -I- can just do a ctrl-f real quick and search my database because I took the time to record pretty much everything I've crafted over the years, but I'm sure there are many players out there who don't have that particular luxury.

And honestly:  what's the big farking deal about storing shit in your apartment, anyway?  It -can't- be anything particularly useful, or the burglars would've removed it already.

[Aaron Goulet]

Apartments aren't warehouses.  Warehouses are warehouses.

[Synthesis]

I think there should be a general "crafter sit-in" where everyone with a subclass crafting skill sits in the local tavern for the next few days and crafts all the stuff they now need to get rid of.

[RogueGunslinger]

Apartments aren't warehouses.  Warehouses are warehouses.

That's exactly what they are in Armageddon. It's not like people buy apartments to sleep more.



Edit: I was late to this one, wasn't I?

[Ashes]

Why do I think characters weren't thinking "You know, a nice tile-topped table will go nice in here..."  but rather the player going "How can I get more shit in here?"
Feel skeptical and a little grumpy.

As he thoughtfully thumbs at his scraggly beard, you say, in sirihish:
                       "Now, how can ah get more shit in 'ere?"

[AmandaGreathouse]

Can't help throwing a little snark in this morning, so here it is:

People are going to keep using their apartments for warehouses. All this means is that they fit less.

Which means that those people will be renting more apartments for more storage.

And as an aside: I feel like this is a poor fix. I really, really do. Feels like arm is turning into 'clan and ranger mud!' where if you want to get by without spending most of your time logged in working rather than interacting you need to join a clan, and if you want to be able to go when you need to, you need to play a ranger.

The merchant guild has little enough going for it with independent pcs. This is just another nerf that's going to fuck them.

Not like it matters much.

[Boggis]

People just need to get out of the habit of storing every single thing they make that they will never, ever sell. With my last merchant in Kadius I went through the storage bins which were full PC made crap and junked 90% of it. Nobody ever noticed it was gone.

[Cutthroat]

People are going to keep using their apartments for warehouses. All this means is that they fit less.

It means apartments will fit the amount of stuff that they are supposed to. I don't think there's a reason to worry unless oversized things have been in your room for a long time.

Which means that those people will be renting more apartments for more storage.

Call me a sucker, but I wish people could only get one apartment per city. What is currently possible is a bit silly for a variety of IC and OOC reasons.

And as an aside: I feel like this is a poor fix. I really, really do. Feels like arm is turning into 'clan and ranger mud!' where if you want to get by without spending most of your time logged in working rather than interacting you need to join a clan, and if you want to be able to go when you need to, you need to play a ranger.

The merchant guild has little enough going for it with independent pcs. This is just another nerf that's going to fuck them.

I can see how one might see it that way, but how was the game supposed to be designed in the first place? Indies are by definition supposed to have a harder time in life than clanned people. Rangers are supposed to be better at going out than everyone else. And lastly, work and interaction can go (one might argue, -should- go) hand-in-hand.

[musashi]

Can't help throwing a little snark in this morning, so here it is:

People are going to keep using their apartments for warehouses. All this means is that they fit less.

Which means that those people will be renting more apartments for more storage.

And as an aside: I feel like this is a poor fix. I really, really do. Feels like arm is turning into 'clan and ranger mud!' where if you want to get by without spending most of your time logged in working rather than interacting you need to join a clan, and if you want to be able to go when you need to, you need to play a ranger.

The merchant guild has little enough going for it with independent pcs. This is just another nerf that's going to fuck them.

Not like it matters much.

People should probably ease up on complaining about changes that are already going in and try to adapt to them instead of being all health care reform republician about it. Run with it and see what's actually happening with its implementation first at least, because staff sees more of the picture than we do.

Merchants can make more than enough money without storing lots of junk in their apartment beyond its capacity limit. Even newbie indie merchants who don't know any crafting recipies.

People just get so over dramatic.

[Ghost]

one apartment per city is a viable option

[musashi]

Why not just 1 apartment period? Since nenyuk is running all of them I mean.

[Ghost]

some people travel between cities

dont be harsh

[Gunnerblaster]

I've never rented an apartment, but I would totally use it to mudsex.

Up 'til now I've just been using back alleys and out-of-the-way rooms.

That's hardcore. 

[Booya]

Maybe limit apartments to players with karma?

[spawnloser]

Limiting to 1 worldwide is too harsh, if you ask me.

Limiting to 2 per city would be fine, actually.  People have to move and it's best done while one apartment still has some rent on it.

Limiting it to only players with karma?  There was a 4 karma role in game that bragged about how much she used to make at the apartment lottery.

[Cutthroat]

Oops, I hadn't thought about moving. 2/city is pretty good, yep. One worldwide apartment is not going to be the best way to accommodate traveling PCs.

[Thunkkin]

Two per city is also good so that the Scarlet Pimpernel can have his fancy apartment where he sips wine with nobles and his dingy apartment where he makes his plans with the secret society his trusted compatriots (who never guess his true identity, well, oh yeah, except for the mdesc thing).

[Aaron Goulet]

Am I the only person who read Vanth's most recent post in the weight limit announcement thread and thought, "That person is totally going to get robbed now"?  Along with every other person's apartment they break into trying to find that one, of course.

[Cutthroat]

Am I the only person who read Vanth's most recent post in the weight limit announcement thread and thought, "That person is totally going to get robbed now"?  Along with every other person's apartment they break into trying to find that one, of course.

I thought, "Wow, some players were treating this as if the sky was falling and this room appears to have 9 things you can put stuff in or on."

But yours is an interesting thought too.
A human cut-throat's eyes shift from one side to the other.

[Ghost]

i dont understand why it is 2 per city instead of 1 per city?

what do you mean moving?

[spawnloser]

Moving from a crappy apartment into a better one when it becomes available?  People do this.

[BlackMagic0]

Oops, I hadn't thought about moving. 2/city is pretty good, yep. One worldwide apartment is not going to be the best way to accommodate traveling PCs.

I thought you were talking about the 2 people per apartment, which is lame if you ask me.
Though moving to bigger apartments if you want a warehouse seems a good idea.

[Cutthroat]

i dont understand why it is 2 per city instead of 1 per city?

what do you mean moving?

Say you have an apartment in Building A. You want to move to an apartment in Building B, for whatever reason (maybe it's nicer, or you're getting robbed, whatever). It's easiest to do this while renting Building A, so you can get all your furniture moved from A to B. But with only one apartment available to you, you'd have to wait until the lease on Building A runs out, which means you'll have the furniture you wanted to move to Building B behind locked doors. With two apartments available to you, you'll be able to move furniture from your old place to your new place.

I thought you were talking about the 2 people per apartment, which is lame if you ask me.

No, people should be able to pack into a single apartment as much as they like.

[Vanth]

Moved all of these from "Random Armageddon Thoughts" because they lost their randomness.

[Vanth]

By the way, we are discussing limiting the number of apartments a single person can rent, so for the three of you who have 4 apartments apiece, and the three of you that have 3 apartments apiece, you might want to start thinking about which ones you want to keep.

[BlackMagic0]

I thought you were talking about the 2 people per apartment, which is lame if you ask me.

No, people should be able to pack into a single apartment as much as they like.

Why is it like this anyway? I found it rather silly!

Pfft! Riot lets fix this!

[BlackMagic0]

By the way, we are discussing limiting the number of apartments a single person can rent, so for the three of you who have 4 apartments apiece, and the three of you that have 3 apartments apiece, you might want to start thinking about which ones you want to keep.

Woah.. Are folks that have 3-4 apartments?! One PC?! No wonder every time they are all taken!!
Haha..

[Ghost]

stuff that makes sense

stuff that makes sense

then maybe you should not be able to renew your rent in an apartment if you have more than lets say 50 days on another?

you think that would be feasible?

[Ashes]

Say you have an apartment in Building A. You want to move to an apartment in Building B, for whatever reason (maybe it's nicer, or you're getting robbed, whatever). It's easiest to do this while renting Building A, so you can get all your furniture moved from A to B. But with only one apartment available to you, you'd have to wait until the lease on Building A runs out, which means you'll have the furniture you wanted to move to Building B behind locked doors. With two apartments available to you, you'll be able to move furniture from your old place to your new place.

One of my favorite memories is helping to move a clanmate on my very very very very first PC.

The something, something dwarf picks up a large stone bed.

The dusty, rugged-looking half-elf's jaw drops, and he strains to lift a stained agafari dresser.

[Sinna]

Glad there will be a limit on the number of renting apartments.  Renting more than two is just kinda rude to the rest of the playerbase, I think.

[Synthesis]

....

[AmandaGreathouse]

stuff that makes sense

stuff that makes sense

then maybe you should not be able to renew your rent in an apartment if you have more than lets say 50 days on another?

you think that would be feasible?

OOh, Ghost. I like this idea.

Musashi: Put whatever label on me you want, or generalize if you like. Any check on the record of my posting will show that I'm NOT generally negative, and usually DO wait with regards to the whole changes thing before I make any decisions... and I can't think of the last time I've spoken out against ones I didn't like. And yes, there HAVE been more than one. I wasn't being overdramatic, I was being cranky, and there was a disclaimer saying I was being cranky, so you can skip past it if that's not your bag.

Apartments aren't warehouses.  Warehouses are warehouses.

Ah yes, but until it becomes as easy to get a warehouse to use for warehouse purposes as it is to make a crafter who's going to need a warehouse worth of space for it, people are going to keep using apartments for that purpose.

Cutthroat: I hope it gets cut down to one per city also for apartments. As to work and interaction going hand in hand, that would be ideal, but largely isn't the case.



For what it's worth: I don't even HAVE an apartment in game at the moment, so it's really not affecting me personally.

*shrug*

[Synthesis]

I think the only people this will affect, really, are stonecrafters--because their raw materials are so f'ing heavy.

Won't somebody please think of the stonecrafters? 

Real merchants...ha. You already have dozens of warehouses as a real merchant:  they're called "shops."

[Kryos]

I'm glad you're cutting the number, Vanth + staff.  Real glad.

[Sinna]

Well if someone does something about communal crafting spaces, this might help, Synth, no?

[Synthesis]

Well if someone does something about communal crafting spaces, this might help, Synth, no?

I knew it was all a communist plot.

[Qzzrbl]

I think the only people this will affect, really, are stonecrafters--because their raw materials are so f'ing heavy.

Won't somebody please think of the stonecrafters? 

Real merchants...ha. You already have dozens of warehouses as a real merchant:  they're called "shops."

I think it's kinda silly that apartment object limits are based on weight....

I wish there was a size dimension code for all objects. T-T

[Synthesis]

I'm just a little irritated because...maybe I have a bunch of friends...and maybe I want to make sure they live well...but maybe I also want to keep an eye on what they're up to...and maybe I don't want them to know about each other.

'cuz I'm shady like that, son

[AmandaGreathouse]

You can always give them the coins to rent their own places.

[Synthesis]

You can always give them the coins to rent their own places.

But then I can't drop by and make sure they're not mudsexing somebody else.

[AmandaGreathouse]

... I guess this makes burglar the new 'city ranger'.

But in all seriousness: I'm not meaning to be snarky today, I'm really not. Perhaps wishing up would be in order here, Syn? No clue how effective it would be, but I'm sure there's workarounds.

[Agent_137]

You can always give them the coins to rent their own places.

But then they'll just spend it on wine and keep begging on the street corner!

p.s.
Syn, just make them give you a key when you first give them the sid.

[Synthesis]

You can always give them the coins to rent their own places.

But then they'll just spend it on wine and keep begging on the street corner!

p.s.
Syn, just make them give you a key when you first give them the sid.

True...but how is that any different than me renting the place directly, hmmmmm?

[RogueGunslinger]

Glad there will be a limit on the number of renting apartments.  Renting more than two is just kinda rude to the rest of the playerbase, I think.

Honestly this sounds like an IC problem that should be dealt ICly.

[Agent_137]

True...but how is that any different than me renting the place directly, hmmmmm?

I got a better idea. Hire a spy.

[Synthesis]

True...but how is that any different than me renting the place directly, hmmmmm?

I got a better idea. Hire a spy.

Hire spies to spy on my spies? Now instead of cornering the apartment market, I'm cornering the burglar market. 

[Lizzie]

By the way, we are discussing limiting the number of apartments a single person can rent, so for the three of you who have 4 apartments apiece, and the three of you that have 3 apartments apiece, you might want to start thinking about which ones you want to keep.

When you say the people who "have" apartments, are you referring to primary renters, or anyone with access? Because, I might be the roommate to a primary renter on one apartment in every building in the game, but as a non-primary renter, I would have no control over who I'm stuck with. The only thing I'd have access to is the place itself, and the ability to renew the rent. And even that gets taken away if the primary renter types "rent with none."

So I hope you mean the primary renter - I'd hate to have to decide if I want my own 1-room cheapo place, OR share the luxury suite with a guy who might or might not want me there next week.

[Sinna]

Am I the only person who read Vanth's most recent post in the weight limit announcement thread and thought, "That person is totally going to get robbed now"?  Along with every other person's apartment they break into trying to find that one, of course.

I totally had that thought, didn't want to admit it.

[Jingo]

Realistic? Maybe.

But I think this unnecessarily punishes independent merchants.

And imho, the reasoning behind the warehousing storage policy is dumb. If there was a demand for storage space, there would be someone providing storage space. It strikes me as an IC excuse for more ooc concerns.

The corruption bit could be handled icly. I could totally see a Templar entering an warehouse, on the premise of contraband. Only to swipe that merchant's entire stock of ivory fellators for personal use.

[RogueGunslinger]

IAWJingo

[ianmartin]

I know how we can fix the apartment problem and incidentally a couple other issues.  Please provide feedback.

1.  Give pc's the chance to abandon an apartment so they can move into another one.
2.  Limit code so that a PC can rent only 1 Apartment in a city at any given time.

It seems to be easy enough to code and it will stop hoarding and moving.

[ianmartin]

In fact, to expand on this, I think there should be a central apartment person you can go to, ie a representative of nenyuk in every city that has apartments and he has a list of ALL apartment available and their location and you can rent from him etc...

[Lizzie]

I know how we can fix the apartment problem and incidentally a couple other issues.  Please provide feedback.

1.  Give pc's the chance to abandon an apartment so they can move into another one.
2.  Limit code so that a PC can rent only 1 Apartment in a city at any given time.

It seems to be easy enough to code and it will stop hoarding and moving.

It's been suggested already. The problem, is that if you abandon one, and you're only allowed to have one at a time, then by the time you get to the rental agent to rent the one you want, it might already be rented. And now you're stuck holding your one big box full of stuff, that you can't walk around with, and no place to put it.

Also, it still doesn't prevent people from allowing roommates who are already roommates in another building, PLUS renting their own place.


And about that Nenyuk..

what happens when that Nenyuk's player gets burned out and never logs in anymore..or doesn't play when you play, so you -never- have the opportunity to interact with him, -never- get to rent an apartment for months and months at a time...

[Sinna]

Not a bad idea at all.

[spawnloser]

This is all part of another discussion where these ideas have already been brought up.  You can find the thread here:  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38532.0/topicseen.html

To comment directly on this idea, however.  No to limit of 1.  People move.  Imagine the metagaming workarounds that people would have to come up with if they were only allowed 1 apartment per city and they want to move from one to another.  I am SO against a limit of 1 for this reason and this reason alone, playability and OOC hassles that cause unrealistic actions.

Giving people the ability to abandon an apartment?  Sure, why not?  So long as they do not get their coin refunded, I'm fine with this.

[ianmartin]

Spawnloser, Yes, I like the idea of no refund, but perhaps the one agent in question should be an npc, maybe have all apartment keepers have this function so you don't get stuck schlepping your stuff.

1.  Make it so that when you abandon your apartment, it sets your time remaining to 2 days or whatever have you
2.  All NPC apartment rental type people have the functionality to rent to ALL apartment complexes.

[Lizzie]

This still doesn't address the problem, ianmartin. Here's the situation - that I run into all the time.

I'm at the building in Allanak, on Stonecarver's. I like the place but I've been wanting one near Trader's for a long time and keep watching to see if it opens up. Finally, there's a vacancy.

So I walk back to my old place and grab all my shit. I abandon it..even though I had -just- renewed the rent.

I had checked before leaving my old place and the rental agent assures me the new place is still vacant. So I go to the new place..
and go to rent it..
and someone already did, while I was walking from point A to point B, because I wasn't the only one with that idea and they were just quicker.

So NOW..I have to go BACK to my old place, renew the rent AGAIN..just to keep the place I was hoping not to be stuck with, again.

Plus, I just spent probably a good 2 hours of login time doing nothing but frustrating bullshit.

[Sinna]

The dude that lists all the places available also allows you to rent it - so Lizzie's problem doesn't exist.
When you abandon, perhaps you get 2 IC days to get your stuff out.

Done.

If all the guards at the apartment did was _guard_ and take/give keys this would be a good solution.

[Ghost]

failing that, as i suggested earlier in another thread

if you are not given the option to renew your rent while having another apartment with rent time > 50 days the problem may be solved

though you wont be needing a central dude to coordinate that the current apartment code would suffice

[Vanth]

Merged another thread into this one.

[ianmartin]

In response to Lizzie

It WILL work if the flag that is triggered when you abandoned your apartment set it that you do NOT currently have an apartment.

for example.

Abandon apartment:  --> Apartment = false
Rent Apartment:  --> If apartmentrent = true then can't rent
Rent Apartment: -->  If apartmentrent = false then can rent.

Something like that.  I haven't seen diku code in forever.

[Lizzie]

In response to Lizzie

It WILL work if the flag that is triggered when you abandoned your apartment set it that you do NOT currently have an apartment.

for example.

Abandon apartment:  --> Apartment = false
Rent Apartment:  --> If apartmentrent = true then can't rent
Rent Apartment: -->  If apartmentrent = false then can rent.

Something like that.  I haven't seen diku code in forever.

I don't think this is even -remotely- enough of a problem to do all this stuff for.

There are already PLENTY of available, vacant apartments, in both Tuluk and Allanak. The fact that you don't WANT to live in those available apartments is irrelevent. There's no shortage, and currently you can rent in more than one building at a time..and people do rent in more than one building at a time, and there are STILL vacancies in each city.

Now, if your issue is that you feel the available apartments aren't secure enough, I recommend you lodge a complaint IC with your local templarate, and your local gang-o-thieves-who-have-a-protection-racket-going.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I don't understand what the big deal is, when there are plenty of apartments available (in Allanak, at least).

[Saellyn]

People expect luxury. They don't want to live cheaply, which is dumb.

[Is Friday]

People expect luxury. They don't want to live cheaply, which is dumb.

Plenty IC.

[Saellyn]

Listen here, punk...

You are not a Noble. Buy the trashy apartment and get a job scraping dung to pay for it!

And then pay me half for protection (;

[Is Friday]

I don't think well-paid Merchants should be slumming it.

[shadeoux]

I don't think well-paid Merchants should be slumming it.

Then don't, I am sure you can rent a compound/nice apartment you just have to figure it out ICly is all.

[Is Friday]

I don't think well-paid Merchants should be slumming it.

Then don't, I am sure you can rent a compound/nice apartment you just have to figure it out ICly is all.

I was being disagreementalative with saellyn. Get of out my way.

[Saellyn]

I don't think well-paid Merchants should be slumming it.

Then don't, I am sure you can rent a compound/nice apartment you just have to figure it out ICly is all.

I was being disagreementalative with saellyn. Get of out my way.

Don't be disagreementalative with me, punk! You slum it like the sleezy merchant you are! Not EVERYBODY gets to wear silks like Lord Templar Fancyshmancypants.

[Is Friday]

I don't think well-paid Merchants should be slumming it.

Then don't, I am sure you can rent a compound/nice apartment you just have to figure it out ICly is all.

I was being disagreementalative with saellyn. Get of out my way.

Don't be disagreementalative with me, punk! You slum it like the sleezy merchant you are! Not EVERYBODY gets to wear silks like Lord Templar Fancyshmancypants.

Unless it's IC for everybody to wear silks.

[Saellyn]

... WTF city are you living in where everybody wears silk!?

[Jdr]

That'd be Tuluk, where silk's as cheap as the cotton (probably).

[Is Friday]

... WTF city are you living in where everybody wears silk!?

Is Friday's Family Role v4.2! Everyone gets 6 silk items to wear and 25,000 sid to start when they join up!

[Gagula]

Nah, it's really in the Silk Sea; you just point to Red Storm, and head south! On foot of course.

[Saellyn]

Can you drown in this "silk sea"?

[Saellyn]

... WTF city are you living in where everybody wears silk!?

Is Friday's Family Role v4.2! Everyone gets 6 silk items to wear and 25,000 sid to start when they join up!

BTW I bet you I could spend 25k sid faster than you!

[Gagula]

Can you drown in this "silk sea"?

No, no, pfft, drown in silk. ha! But you do run the risk of pissing off lord fancypantstemplar.

[Is Friday]

... WTF city are you living in where everybody wears silk!?

Is Friday's Family Role v4.2! Everyone gets 6 silk items to wear and 25,000 sid to start when they join up!

BTW I bet you I could spend 25k sid faster than you!

I've made 25k in 2 RL days on a whore that faded.

I've already won the moral victory, here. Just give up.

[Saellyn]

You win. FOR NAO!

[Armaddict]

Stop gathering so much loot that you use once a real life year.

[Saellyn]

Stop gathering so much loot that you use once a real life year.

That's TWICE an RL year to you, mister!