Sparring Weapon Change

[Kryos]

So, after having done a lot of IG sparring, I'm wondering what the player base's opinion is about how its done versus an alternative method.

Proposition:  Change sparring weapons to act closer to how 'fists' do now. Very low actual HP damage, but more significant stun loss.  Over all, I'd like to see sparring matches last longer so emotes can be applied a bit more freely.

Why:  With a really strong character(that is not a hg or mul), I've taken off 20-30 hp, and eventually, this started becoming the common hit, not the exception.  It seems a bit off to me.  Yes, I know that a wooden sword can break an arm, or crack the skull with a direct hit.  However, most players spar in armor, and while it would *hurt* it wouldn't be *deadly* unless you just kept beating on someone after you had 'beaten' them.  Further, I think it would add to the game in a positive manner to have sparring be a bit more elegant.

Secondary:  See "http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36931.0.html" for discussion of perceiving stun.

[X-D]

as it sits now, sparring weapons would need be neg damage to have less.

The damage you get during sparring has to do with other factors then the weapon.

[Kryos]

I'm quite aware it has more factors then the weapon involved(my original post notes at least two others, in fact), however the coded 'sparring weapon' object would be the focus of implementing this change.  My proposition would change sparring weapons from being 'bad quality weapons' into something all together different, that function nothing like their current way.

[RogueGunslinger]

as it sits now, sparring weapons would need be neg damage to have less.

The damage you get during sparring has to do with other factors then the weapon.

What's wrong with making it negative?

[Kryos]

Hmm, I think this is the wrong train of thought.  "How" is the business of our coder friends.  "Should" is more meaningful here.

[Spice Spice Baby]

I just wish that heavy shell and bone absorbed more hits from sparring weapons. If someone's only hitting you hard enough to "nick" you through the chitinous plates that used to be on large insects, I imagine more blows would just bounce off.

[Kryos]

Indeed, with this change in place, that would be far less a problem.  A fist hit typically does 1-3 hp, but can take off scary amount of stun.  If sparring weapons were similar, things like 'accidently two shotting newbie Amos' would be thing of the past.  Though keep in mind armor reduces damage taken, so a nick might turn into a more significant blow, had you not been wearing armor.

[Clearsighted]

Indeed, with this change in place, that would be far less a problem.  A fist hit typically does 1-3 hp, but can take off scary amount of stun.  If sparring weapons were similar, things like 'accidently two shotting newbie Amos' would be thing of the past.  Though keep in mind armor reduces damage taken, so a nick might turn into a more significant blow, had you not been wearing armor.

However, it will lead to a radical surge in 'three shotting newbie Amos' incidents.

[Xeran Van Houten]

I'm pretty new to Arm, and I notice there's a significant difference in combat performance with a sparring weapon and with a live one.  Mostly I see a lot of nicks and grazes on people of similar skill, but against critters such as scrabs and beetles, I either utterly fuck them up or it bounces off the shell more often than not.

But the biggest problem I have is that when you reach a certain level of combat proficency, you have a VERY difficult time sparring with not so proficient pcs, and as Kryos says, some of the races are almost impossible to last more than five rounds against if they can land a hit on you.  I've taken hits of up to 40hp with sparring weapons to an area with chitin armor.  Logically, one would think someone sparring would be able to have more control over the amount of damage they do as to not seriously hurt another, but I'm sure I'm not saying anything someone else hasn't said before.

^_~

[Kryos]

As for three shotting, if they work like fists, not really.  You'd have to go a couple rounds into someone with average human endurance, after you've KO'd them (which would be hard).  But yeah, not seeing a lot of 'yes/no because: x' replies.  I'd love to see more of those.

[Riev]

Hello. I have KO'd PCs in three rounds with my fists.

[Salt Merchant]

I'm not satisfied with how sparring weapons work either.

It does have to do with the combat system. A master warrior could wield a spoon and still kill most NPCs in the game.

I think there needs to be a flag on sparring weapons to indicate that a cloth-wrapped pole serving as a training club will never do more than barely hit someone, for example.

[crackerjack]

Speaking as one who has sparred in RL with bokken, I can tell you the current code isn't that far off.  A well struck shot with a wooden sword is going to -hurt-.  Especially if in the neck or head.  Even more so if a mul or half-giant were swinging it.

However, the only way I can think of to fix it where armor makes a bigger difference against sparring weapons would be to have the armor run a check each time its struck against the type of weapon used and if said weapon is a sparring weapon, then have it deflect much more of the damage.

The downside in doing this is I can see people having sparring matches that last from dawn till high sun. Which of course is not very realistic.

[Gimfalisette]

The question isn't whether or not a well-trained warrior should be able to kill you with a spoon, it's whether or not a well-trained warrior should be able to choose not to try to kill you, while wielding that spoon. Currently, the warrior has no choice in the matter, other than "mercy on"...which is a very incomplete solution and not always reliable.

[Fnord]

Solution to this problem is not a weapons issue, but a skill/stats issue. Would need something like an exert command

> exert 50

You are now trying 50% as hard as you could in a fight.

[My 2 sids]

I like this idea.

Don't confuse hurt with damage.   If a person gets shot in the leg with a paint-ball it will still hurt (may bruise or whatever) HOWEVER, under normal conditions it won't inflict serious harm to the person.   Same with a wooden weapon --  may hurt, but if used correctly it wouldn't kill.


As for how long the sparring matches last --  well, so do many conversations/shopping trips/ mudsexes,  it simply takes that long to role-play out a good scene.  

[Kryos]

Speaking as one who has sparred in RL with bokken, I can tell you the current code isn't that far off.  A well struck shot with a wooden sword is going to -hurt-.  Especially if in the neck or head.  Even more so if a mul or half-giant were swinging it.

However, the only way I can think of to fix it where armor makes a bigger difference against sparring weapons would be to have the armor run a check each time its struck against the type of weapon used and if said weapon is a sparring weapon, then have it deflect much more of the damage.

The downside in doing this is I can see people having sparring matches that last from dawn till high sun. Which of course is not very realistic.

I've done fights with bodken and other weaponry.  I can't say I agree with this.  On a properly armored target, a clean strike from a bodken does a lot of hurt (stun loss) but rarely if ever threatens death or real injury.  Sure, the possibility of a bruised rib, broken bone, or other painful injury exists, but its rather low, honestly.  I'm a mammoth of a man, 6'7" and 250 lbs.  The hardest hit I can generate(which I know isn't on size alone, but my power generation isn't garbage) did not break someones arm, rib, or leg.  They limped, were wildly bruised and angry at me, but wounded, truly, they were not.  

One last point, along Fnord's line of thinking.  Someone who has even a year of swordsmanship training on a casual 3-night a week level has learned to stop blows at skin level.  Teaching weapon control and discipline is a foundation of good swordsmanship.  Huge blows of doom such as the ones I mentioned above either come from novice scrubs or someone looking to make a statement.  Having mercy work like this would make me a happier guy, and is a possible solution to the clunkiness of sparring.

But that aside, I think its important to realize that realism is not always the trump card.  It *can* be wonderful to adhere to, but in the case of sparring and helping with making the whole system more elegant, I think a break away from the hardcore would be beneficial to the role playing environment, and newbie Amos

Hello. I have KO'd PCs in three rounds with my fists.

And I've one shot people with my fists.  Congratulations?   Point being, even after that first round, I'd have to beat, and beat, and beat on the player to kill them.  That's how sparring weapons *should* be, at least in my opinion.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Speaking as one who has sparred in RL with bokken, I can tell you the current code isn't that far off.  A well struck shot with a wooden sword is going to -hurt-.  Especially if in the neck or head.  Even more so if a mul or half-giant were swinging it.

However, the only way I can think of to fix it where armor makes a bigger difference against sparring weapons would be to have the armor run a check each time its struck against the type of weapon used and if said weapon is a sparring weapon, then have it deflect much more of the damage.

The downside in doing this is I can see people having sparring matches that last from dawn till high sun. Which of course is not very realistic.

I also do not agree.  You probably wern't sparring correctly if there was such a high risk of injury.

And sparring matches in ARM can last that long now under certain circumstances, the onus is on the players to not abuse the game by doing so.

I do agree that three shotting newbs to a knockout  would be a bit annoying, but sleeping for ten minutes is easier to deal with than seeing the medic, or can be solved by the use of smelling salts.

[Gimfalisette]

Solution to this problem is not a weapons issue, but a skill/stats issue. Would need something like an exert command

This.

[staggerlee]

Solution to this problem is not a weapons issue, but a skill/stats issue. Would need something like an exert command

This.

That would also allow you to throw fights, fight defensively and other things. I think it'd be great.

[a strange shadow]

A certain few scenes from Snatch come to mind.

[Kryos]

Solution to this problem is not a weapons issue, but a skill/stats issue. Would need something like an exert command

> exert 50

You are now trying 50% as hard as you could in a fight.

My problem with this on face level is it still allows the mul, high str human or dwarf, and heaven forbid the HG to one shot newbie Amos with an accidental hit, if sparring itself is not altered as well.  It's a good idea, mind you, but not the complete package.

[Spoon]

Yep.

However, I don't think there's a problem. People have always and will always argue over the issue of what is realistic. I think
the important thing is that the current system works. People would spar indefinitely if there was no consequence. If this consequence
was stat damage, then what would that do to unarmed combat? I like the current system, so just believe that when you're sparring it's
the brutal, full-on thumping bone-crunching style and not fencing or whatever you've been subjected to in real life. In the result of a severe
beating it is good RP to play out injuries, but you are not required to play out healing broken bones for weeks and weeks at the expense of
your enjoyment of the game.

[Gimfalisette]

My problem with this on face level is it still allows the mul, high str human or dwarf, and heaven forbid the HG to one shot newbie Amos with an accidental hit, if sparring itself is not altered as well.  It's a good idea, mind you, but not the complete package.

As I said before, the well-trained warrior should be able to kill you with a spoon...if s/he wants to. Sparring should never be a safe zone. There are no safe zones in Zalanthas.

[spawnloser]

I hate sparring weapons.  Training weapons are the way to go.