Sparring Weapon Change

[Kryos]

So, after having done a lot of IG sparring, I'm wondering what the player base's opinion is about how its done versus an alternative method.

Proposition:  Change sparring weapons to act closer to how 'fists' do now. Very low actual HP damage, but more significant stun loss.  Over all, I'd like to see sparring matches last longer so emotes can be applied a bit more freely.

Why:  With a really strong character(that is not a hg or mul), I've taken off 20-30 hp, and eventually, this started becoming the common hit, not the exception.  It seems a bit off to me.  Yes, I know that a wooden sword can break an arm, or crack the skull with a direct hit.  However, most players spar in armor, and while it would *hurt* it wouldn't be *deadly* unless you just kept beating on someone after you had 'beaten' them.  Further, I think it would add to the game in a positive manner to have sparring be a bit more elegant.

Secondary:  See "http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36931.0.html" for discussion of perceiving stun.

[X-D]

as it sits now, sparring weapons would need be neg damage to have less.

The damage you get during sparring has to do with other factors then the weapon.

[Kryos]

I'm quite aware it has more factors then the weapon involved(my original post notes at least two others, in fact), however the coded 'sparring weapon' object would be the focus of implementing this change.  My proposition would change sparring weapons from being 'bad quality weapons' into something all together different, that function nothing like their current way.

[RogueGunslinger]

as it sits now, sparring weapons would need be neg damage to have less.

The damage you get during sparring has to do with other factors then the weapon.

What's wrong with making it negative?

[Kryos]

Hmm, I think this is the wrong train of thought.  "How" is the business of our coder friends.  "Should" is more meaningful here.

[Spice Spice Baby]

I just wish that heavy shell and bone absorbed more hits from sparring weapons. If someone's only hitting you hard enough to "nick" you through the chitinous plates that used to be on large insects, I imagine more blows would just bounce off.

[Kryos]

Indeed, with this change in place, that would be far less a problem.  A fist hit typically does 1-3 hp, but can take off scary amount of stun.  If sparring weapons were similar, things like 'accidently two shotting newbie Amos' would be thing of the past.  Though keep in mind armor reduces damage taken, so a nick might turn into a more significant blow, had you not been wearing armor.

[Clearsighted]

Indeed, with this change in place, that would be far less a problem.  A fist hit typically does 1-3 hp, but can take off scary amount of stun.  If sparring weapons were similar, things like 'accidently two shotting newbie Amos' would be thing of the past.  Though keep in mind armor reduces damage taken, so a nick might turn into a more significant blow, had you not been wearing armor.

However, it will lead to a radical surge in 'three shotting newbie Amos' incidents.

[Xeran Van Houten]

I'm pretty new to Arm, and I notice there's a significant difference in combat performance with a sparring weapon and with a live one.  Mostly I see a lot of nicks and grazes on people of similar skill, but against critters such as scrabs and beetles, I either utterly fuck them up or it bounces off the shell more often than not.

But the biggest problem I have is that when you reach a certain level of combat proficency, you have a VERY difficult time sparring with not so proficient pcs, and as Kryos says, some of the races are almost impossible to last more than five rounds against if they can land a hit on you.  I've taken hits of up to 40hp with sparring weapons to an area with chitin armor.  Logically, one would think someone sparring would be able to have more control over the amount of damage they do as to not seriously hurt another, but I'm sure I'm not saying anything someone else hasn't said before.

^_~

[Kryos]

As for three shotting, if they work like fists, not really.  You'd have to go a couple rounds into someone with average human endurance, after you've KO'd them (which would be hard).  But yeah, not seeing a lot of 'yes/no because: x' replies.  I'd love to see more of those.

[Riev]

Hello. I have KO'd PCs in three rounds with my fists.

[Salt Merchant]

I'm not satisfied with how sparring weapons work either.

It does have to do with the combat system. A master warrior could wield a spoon and still kill most NPCs in the game.

I think there needs to be a flag on sparring weapons to indicate that a cloth-wrapped pole serving as a training club will never do more than barely hit someone, for example.

[crackerjack]

Speaking as one who has sparred in RL with bokken, I can tell you the current code isn't that far off.  A well struck shot with a wooden sword is going to -hurt-.  Especially if in the neck or head.  Even more so if a mul or half-giant were swinging it.

However, the only way I can think of to fix it where armor makes a bigger difference against sparring weapons would be to have the armor run a check each time its struck against the type of weapon used and if said weapon is a sparring weapon, then have it deflect much more of the damage.

The downside in doing this is I can see people having sparring matches that last from dawn till high sun. Which of course is not very realistic.

[Gimfalisette]

The question isn't whether or not a well-trained warrior should be able to kill you with a spoon, it's whether or not a well-trained warrior should be able to choose not to try to kill you, while wielding that spoon. Currently, the warrior has no choice in the matter, other than "mercy on"...which is a very incomplete solution and not always reliable.

[Fnord]

Solution to this problem is not a weapons issue, but a skill/stats issue. Would need something like an exert command

> exert 50

You are now trying 50% as hard as you could in a fight.

[My 2 sids]

I like this idea.

Don't confuse hurt with damage.   If a person gets shot in the leg with a paint-ball it will still hurt (may bruise or whatever) HOWEVER, under normal conditions it won't inflict serious harm to the person.   Same with a wooden weapon --  may hurt, but if used correctly it wouldn't kill.


As for how long the sparring matches last --  well, so do many conversations/shopping trips/ mudsexes,  it simply takes that long to role-play out a good scene.  

[Kryos]

Speaking as one who has sparred in RL with bokken, I can tell you the current code isn't that far off.  A well struck shot with a wooden sword is going to -hurt-.  Especially if in the neck or head.  Even more so if a mul or half-giant were swinging it.

However, the only way I can think of to fix it where armor makes a bigger difference against sparring weapons would be to have the armor run a check each time its struck against the type of weapon used and if said weapon is a sparring weapon, then have it deflect much more of the damage.

The downside in doing this is I can see people having sparring matches that last from dawn till high sun. Which of course is not very realistic.

I've done fights with bodken and other weaponry.  I can't say I agree with this.  On a properly armored target, a clean strike from a bodken does a lot of hurt (stun loss) but rarely if ever threatens death or real injury.  Sure, the possibility of a bruised rib, broken bone, or other painful injury exists, but its rather low, honestly.  I'm a mammoth of a man, 6'7" and 250 lbs.  The hardest hit I can generate(which I know isn't on size alone, but my power generation isn't garbage) did not break someones arm, rib, or leg.  They limped, were wildly bruised and angry at me, but wounded, truly, they were not.  

One last point, along Fnord's line of thinking.  Someone who has even a year of swordsmanship training on a casual 3-night a week level has learned to stop blows at skin level.  Teaching weapon control and discipline is a foundation of good swordsmanship.  Huge blows of doom such as the ones I mentioned above either come from novice scrubs or someone looking to make a statement.  Having mercy work like this would make me a happier guy, and is a possible solution to the clunkiness of sparring.

But that aside, I think its important to realize that realism is not always the trump card.  It *can* be wonderful to adhere to, but in the case of sparring and helping with making the whole system more elegant, I think a break away from the hardcore would be beneficial to the role playing environment, and newbie Amos

Hello. I have KO'd PCs in three rounds with my fists.

And I've one shot people with my fists.  Congratulations?   Point being, even after that first round, I'd have to beat, and beat, and beat on the player to kill them.  That's how sparring weapons *should* be, at least in my opinion.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Speaking as one who has sparred in RL with bokken, I can tell you the current code isn't that far off.  A well struck shot with a wooden sword is going to -hurt-.  Especially if in the neck or head.  Even more so if a mul or half-giant were swinging it.

However, the only way I can think of to fix it where armor makes a bigger difference against sparring weapons would be to have the armor run a check each time its struck against the type of weapon used and if said weapon is a sparring weapon, then have it deflect much more of the damage.

The downside in doing this is I can see people having sparring matches that last from dawn till high sun. Which of course is not very realistic.

I also do not agree.  You probably wern't sparring correctly if there was such a high risk of injury.

And sparring matches in ARM can last that long now under certain circumstances, the onus is on the players to not abuse the game by doing so.

I do agree that three shotting newbs to a knockout  would be a bit annoying, but sleeping for ten minutes is easier to deal with than seeing the medic, or can be solved by the use of smelling salts.

[Gimfalisette]

Solution to this problem is not a weapons issue, but a skill/stats issue. Would need something like an exert command

This.

[staggerlee]

Solution to this problem is not a weapons issue, but a skill/stats issue. Would need something like an exert command

This.

That would also allow you to throw fights, fight defensively and other things. I think it'd be great.

[a strange shadow]

A certain few scenes from Snatch come to mind.

[Kryos]

Solution to this problem is not a weapons issue, but a skill/stats issue. Would need something like an exert command

> exert 50

You are now trying 50% as hard as you could in a fight.

My problem with this on face level is it still allows the mul, high str human or dwarf, and heaven forbid the HG to one shot newbie Amos with an accidental hit, if sparring itself is not altered as well.  It's a good idea, mind you, but not the complete package.

[Spoon]

Yep.

However, I don't think there's a problem. People have always and will always argue over the issue of what is realistic. I think
the important thing is that the current system works. People would spar indefinitely if there was no consequence. If this consequence
was stat damage, then what would that do to unarmed combat? I like the current system, so just believe that when you're sparring it's
the brutal, full-on thumping bone-crunching style and not fencing or whatever you've been subjected to in real life. In the result of a severe
beating it is good RP to play out injuries, but you are not required to play out healing broken bones for weeks and weeks at the expense of
your enjoyment of the game.

[Gimfalisette]

My problem with this on face level is it still allows the mul, high str human or dwarf, and heaven forbid the HG to one shot newbie Amos with an accidental hit, if sparring itself is not altered as well.  It's a good idea, mind you, but not the complete package.

As I said before, the well-trained warrior should be able to kill you with a spoon...if s/he wants to. Sparring should never be a safe zone. There are no safe zones in Zalanthas.

[spawnloser]

I hate sparring weapons.  Training weapons are the way to go.

[RogueGunslinger]

Fo sho.

[Fnord]

My problem with this on face level is it still allows the mul, high str human or dwarf, and heaven forbid the HG to one shot newbie Amos with an accidental hit, if sparring itself is not altered as well.  It's a good idea, mind you, but not the complete package.

Could reduce strength too, in additional to skill #s. I've been hoping for something like this for a long itme... it's like when a black belt spars a white belt. If they didn't mitigate their skill and strength, you'd see basically what happens in game lol, i.e. very quick ko or death (if weapons were used)

[Kryos]

This is not meant as a detrimental statement, but I get the impression some people just don't read or maybe digest before they post.  I've said before, realism I don't believe is the driving force here, RP and making it more *fun* is.  This is not for when you want to blast someone or make a statement.  Further, even with training weapons, I've nailed someone for 20 points on a 0 hour character.  On a nastier character I couldn't hit for LESS then 50 points with a freaking training weapon, dual weilding.  Lastly, even if you multiply the base skill by some significant fractal, you'll still do this when you do hit (and you eventually will, that's how Arm works).  As I've said previously, skill is only one part of the way damage is determined.  

I'm hoping there's a way to tone down the sparring attrition, and make it so those connects are thuds that disorient and mildly damage, rather then  blast them to the next King's age.  If this is done, sparring can turn into a more role-play oriented activity, where you aren't afraid of mulching someone in the the time it takes to type out a emote about the engagement.  

And Fnord, that would definitely be a requirement for making it work, I think.

[Gimfalisette]

As I've said previously, skill is only one part of the way damage is determined.  

Skill is the most important determiner of damage. Stats are not nearly as important, except in a contest between similarly-skilled opponents.

We're not misunderstanding you, we're disagreeing with you. Changing sparring weapons would not fix the actual problem.

[Kryos]

Skill is the most important determiner of damage. Stats are not nearly as important, except in a contest between similarly-skilled opponents.

We're not misunderstanding you, we're disagreeing with you. Changing sparring weapons would not fix the actual problem.

In a word:  What?   Skill does impact the damage calculation, but I assure you, STR is, save in the case of 50+ day characters, and maybe even then, the Alpha characteristic of damage computation.  

This is getting dangerously too ic info, though, so I can't expand on how this can be proven.  However, it should be *easy* to determine.

[spawnloser]

Kryos, I still think you're not listening to the response given by people like Gimf.  We're listening to what you're saying but we're disagreeing.  Skill is the primary determiner of damage after the weapon's coded damage roll.

[Kryos]

And my repeated response is: No, strength is.  If you want to alter the way sparring is handled, you either have to change the combat code for sparring to reflect a closer reality of arm of fist fighting, or be able to scale back str and skill, skill alone is not sufficient especially with races with big str bonuses.  Again, I won't bridge into the IC, but its child's play to show str being the far greater factor in damage dealing then skill once you've played a long lived character or two.

[Gimfalisette]

Have you ever played an 80-day warrior? Or an experienced leader regularly in charge of training noobs? Because the rest of us have.

[Halcyon]

I have.  I have come to different conclusions that you have.

Edit: I'm not sure there is any point to the discussion, seeing as how we cant present our proofs for reasons of IC information.

[Kryos]

I won't dive into the IC, but in a phrase, its easy to show how incorrect skill > str is.  I've seen it repeatedly and consistently, over and over again.

[BlazinDayz]

And my repeated response is: No, strength is.  If you want to alter the way sparring is handled, you either have to change the combat code for sparring to reflect a closer reality of arm of fist fighting, or be able to scale back str and skill, skill alone is not sufficient especially with races with big str bonuses.  Again, I won't bridge into the IC, but its child's play to show str being the far greater factor in damage dealing then skill once you've played a long lived character or two.

I find it interesting how you and some other players seem to "know" how the code works.

All unknown-to-player code aside, I believe sparring weapons should do less damage. Period.

[Qzzrbl]

Have you ever played an 80-day warrior? Or an experienced leader regularly in charge of training noobs? Because the rest of us have.

I have.

And I'd still say strength plays a -big- part in how much damage is done.

But let's shy away from such discussion, as it usually leads to thread lockage.

[Kryos]

Point, Qzz.  Sorry I got pigeonholed.  In short, I'd love to see a change to sparring, and think it'd help the game tremendously.

[Qzzrbl]

Point, Qzz.  Sorry I got pigeonholed.  In short, I'd love to see a change to sparring, and think it'd help the game tremendously.

Agreed.

[Gimfalisette]

To clarify my position: Changing sparring weapons might "fix" something that I see not as a problem but as a realistic consequence of letting someone who's scarily powerful smack at you. But it wouldn't fix what I believe is a true problem, which is the inadequacy of the tools a leader has to train minions.

If you are going to spar with an untrained half-giant, then you're taking a risk that your opponent's brute strength and inability to control him/herself might injure you.

But if you're sparring with your half-giant Byn Sergeant, it's dumb for your leader not to be able to hold back from killing you.

Also, your opponent who is using sparring weapons should be able to try to kill you if s/he wants.

The solution to these problems does not involve changing sparring weapons.

[X-D]

I don't agree for the most part.

At least not to any change to sparring. And changes to sparring weapons, not going to happen. And other then they are already at min damage, staff has stated other reasons in the past, and I agree.

Now, The ability to dial back you attacks I do agree with. But I also think that skill gains from all parties involved should dial back by the same %.

Low pain, low gain.

[Kryos]

I think the 'how', as I've said before, is a coder decision.  But it seems most agree the 'should' is a yes?  And I can't agree with you x-d.  I've learned a *hell* of a lot from my masters not ripping my face off, but rather out-skilling me.

Edit note: The borkeness of the teach verb I think also comes into play here.

[Qzzrbl]

I think the 'how', as I've said before, is a coder decision.  But it seems most agree the 'should' is a yes?  And I can't agree with you x-d.  I've learned a *hell* of a lot from my masters not ripping my face off, but rather out-skilling me.

Edit note: The borkeness of the teach verb I think also comes into play here.

Sure, the "How" may be a coder decision, but that doesn't mean we still can't discuss it.

A few other good ideas have been brought up.

::Edited to add:: Your masters didn't rip your face off because the sparring weapons didn't hurt.... I'd imagine he could've killed you with said sparring weapon if he so chose to do so. What stopped him was him holding himself back.

[Riev]

As one of the biggest proponents of having some sort of dial-back system, as I THINK me and 7DV at one point talked a whole bunch of game about it, I'm wondering. Did that thread ever go anywhere on the staff coder side? Is it something thought of for 2.Arm or anything?

[X-D]

And I can't agree with you x-d.  I've learned a *hell* of a lot from my masters not ripping my face off, but rather out-skilling me.

These types of arguements are pointless. Sure, your master has the skill to not rip your face off...why, because he/she has trained to NOT rip faces off.

And that is NOT what you are doing in sparring in arm, you are training to rip faces off.

Fact is, if you train with somebody and pull your punches IRL, then that is what you learn to do, Pull punches. And what is even worse is, your sparring partner is also pulling punches, so you do not learn to take full force blows. And believe me, if you do not have that learning, you are fucked for the real deal.

I cannot even begin to count the number of "martial artists" I've flattened in and out of the ring over the years. And I'm only a lowly boxer/brawler. But I can say that 90%+ was because they had never really been hit before and I have.

But Again, pointless arguement, we are all RL badasses over the internet.

[Kryos]

Hmmm, since this is about a scope more wide then brawling, I my continue to assert my disagreement.  Learning control of a weapon is a huge step in progress.  Leading to being able to change your angle of attack mid swing and land precision blows, as well as power generation.  Further, a dojo worth its salt has its upper ranks train full speed with no armor.  Rarely do bad things happen, yet all of these people then pick up their weapons and lay the pain out in practical sparring/matches.

I must say in a controlled environment, even very dangerous people would could kill with a single blow in a real conflict are able to study and improve themselves.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Now, The ability to dial back you attacks I do agree with. But I also think that skill gains from all parties involved should dial back by the same %.

Low pain, low gain.

I think a fair compromise here would be that the master who's taking it easy won't have any chance at learning at all (ie. improving his own face-wiping skills, because he's not really trying to face-wipe), and the trainee would still have a normal chance to learn.  This is because even though the master's not going full bore, if the trainee gets hit, the trainee is obviously doing something wrong.  When the trainee gets to the point where they can easily avoid the master's 'dialled back' fighting, then the master will have to unleash the hounds in order to teach the trainee further.  That's when the trainee will be learning how not to get dead when faced with a truly deadly opponent.

This is not entirely unrealistic in my opinion, and retains the point: to improve on the problem of sparring matches involving masters vs. trainees.

[Spice Spice Baby]

Now, The ability to dial back you attacks I do agree with. But I also think that skill gains from all parties involved should dial back by the same %.

Low pain, low gain.

I think a fair compromise here would be that the master who's taking it easy won't have any chance at learning at all (ie. improving his own face-wiping skills, because he's not really trying to face-wipe), and the trainee would still have a normal chance to learn.  This is because even though the master's not going full bore, if the trainee gets hit, the trainee is obviously doing something wrong.  When the trainee gets to the point where they can easily avoid the master's 'dialled back' fighting, then the master will have to unleash the hounds in order to teach the trainee further.  That's when the trainee will be learning how not to get dead when faced with a truly deadly opponent.

This is not entirely unrealistic in my opinion, and retains the point: to improve on the problem of sparring matches involving masters vs. trainees.

I would prefer this to the current method of "get bag, get bag, get bag, get bag, tell man okay now try to hit me."

[Clearsighted]

Have you ever played an 80-day warrior? Or an experienced leader regularly in charge of training noobs? Because the rest of us have.

What I used to do is stand there disengaged and emote defending a lot while they whiffed at me, and every now and then toss a quick hit back, predictably clobber them, rapidly disengage again and taunt them about keeping their guard up.

It worked pretty damn well. Course, with that PC I could stand there without any weapon at all and 10-20 day warriors would still whiff at him.

/was a ranger too

/ / That same PC also taught me that teaching half-giants to fight is a bullshit gig, man.

[Gunnerblaster]

What I used to do is stand there disengaged and emote defending a lot while they whiffed at me, and every now and then toss a quick hit back, predictably clobber them, rapidly disengage again and taunt them about keeping their guard up.

This works.

I don't really see a big problem with the way things are, to be honest. If two opponents are equally matched, it'll be an average-length spar with ample opportunity for roleplay / emotes. If it's Master Vs. Trainee - The disengage and strike at random, then disengage again tactic works wonders.

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

[Riev]

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

Why not? We aren't training martial arts here, we're training people to fight real determined threats. If someone has the philosophy that they don't hold back, then whats the problem with a change that allows this proverbial "master" to strike less critical areas? Or to strike lighter, or to purposefully pull punches?

I do not think there is a way, as per this thread, that sparring weapons can be changed to have the impact that people are looking for. Knowing what I do about the code, a "level" sort of system where you choose how hard you go at it, sounds like the best, but I've said this before.

[musashi]

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

Why not? We aren't training martial arts here, we're training people to fight real determined threats. If someone has the philosophy that they don't hold back, then whats the problem with a change that allows this proverbial "master" to strike less critical areas? Or to strike lighter, or to purposefully pull punches?

I think the "you're a jerk if you go all out" mentality is based on the fact that if someone is an absolute beginner and you're an expert, and you just clobber them in two hits ... sure codewise in the game because of the way skill gains work they had a chance to learn something from that. But a person IRL probably wouldn't. In RL ... the proper way to train people in anything is to start small and let them build up to harder things as their profciency increases.

IRL no one has ever said: Man I'm so happy my guitar teacher just threw sheet music at me on day 1 and screamed: PLAY THE CLASSICAL MUSIC! I KNOW YOU CAN'T EVEN READ THAT BUT DO IT ANYWAY GOD DAMNIT! LOOK! I CAN!!! - Because it made me such a better guitarist learning like that, all hardcore ... grrr.

No one's ever said it abut learning languages either. The Japanese have this silly idea that if you just babble at them in English long enough at native speed they'll pick it up through osmosis. They have the lowest speaking language proficiency in all of Asia even though they're the most developed country.

I would be willing to bet that in martial arts ... the same method holds true. If you want an absolute newb to learn, you have to start them off on something small so they have the chance to learn and practice. Learning to "take a punch" is important too, and we did body hardening excercises in the military for that express purpose. But we started them off small for first timers, and then got heavy as your conditioning increased. IRL, that's how people practice things. And folks who insist on showing how much better they are at something over someone who is clearly a beginner ... are jerks 

But ... as I said, going by Arm's code. Sure plow away at them full strength, they'll probably learn faster that way, in the game.

[IntuitiveApathy]

What I used to do is stand there disengaged and emote defending a lot while they whiffed at me, and every now and then toss a quick hit back, predictably clobber them, rapidly disengage again and taunt them about keeping their guard up.

This works in some situations, sure.

But not when your one clobbering hit does a large amount of damage to the poor newbie.  It's just silly to have no choice at all in whether or not you're going to take someone's head off.  If the newbie is playing wounds realistically, you seriously just broke the newbie's arm, trying to teach him something?  Will you have any choice in breaking the newbie's other arm for your next strike?

Yes, Zalanthas is a harsh place, but clans that consistently destroy their own trainees generally don't end up with viable employees that can do any work.  Take the Byn for instance, one of the more grittier clans - you're expected to not train to the point of being hurt badly, as you're not worth anything if you're called on to go out to work afterward.  Sure, the rule is probably motivated by the OOC rationale to prevent spam spar powergaming, but it has a sensible IC basis as well.

[Qzzrbl]

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

Why not? We aren't training martial arts here, we're training people to fight real determined threats. If someone has the philosophy that they don't hold back, then whats the problem with a change that allows this proverbial "master" to strike less critical areas? Or to strike lighter, or to purposefully pull punches?

I do not think there is a way, as per this thread, that sparring weapons can be changed to have the impact that people are looking for. Knowing what I do about the code, a "level" sort of system where you choose how hard you go at it, sounds like the best, but I've said this before.

Also, a unit of crippled Byn doesn't make much money.

[Xagon]

Yes, I do think characters should be able to "pull their punches," regardless of the context

No, I don't think players should be able to determine the percentage of the character's skills (eg: tone down combat by 75%)

One other possibility would be transforming "Mercy" from a command to a skill in its own right. The higher your proficiency in it, the more likely you would -not- kill something outright. OOC things such as HP can easily be roleplayed out. If Amos is brought to 5 hp after an exceptionally rigorous, violent training session, shouldn't it take him some time to recover?

[Nyr]

Solution: everyone should play descending sun.

[Obeliskocism]

You can always pull your punches if you are emoting the fight and not engaging in coded combat.

[Adiadochokinesis]

You can always pull your punches if you are emoting the fight and not engaging in coded combat.

This, unfortunately, does little to remedy the situation in the future.

And by that, I mean it doesn't do jack for skills.

[Clearsighted]

What I used to do is stand there disengaged and emote defending a lot while they whiffed at me, and every now and then toss a quick hit back, predictably clobber them, rapidly disengage again and taunt them about keeping their guard up.

This works in some situations, sure.

But not when your one clobbering hit does a large amount of damage to the poor newbie.  It's just silly to have no choice at all in whether or not you're going to take someone's head off.  If the newbie is playing wounds realistically, you seriously just broke the newbie's arm, trying to teach him something?  Will you have any choice in breaking the newbie's other arm for your next strike?

Well. That's why monstrously strong dwarves, muls and half-giants make bad instructors. Or maybe a human shouldn't be training recruits while etwoing a bardiche.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Well. That's why monstrously strong dwarves, muls and half-giants make bad instructors. Or maybe a human shouldn't be training recruits while etwoing a bardiche.

Even a half-assed recruit dwarf - let alone a mul or half-giant - can make hits like that though.  That's part of the problem.  And it's usually worse when said recruit etwos something - to which the instructor's only course may be to etwo there sparring pike or whatever so they they can actually make a reasonable exchange of blows before they have to end the match.

[Riev]

Solution: everyone should play descending sun.

Wouldn't that be lovely, if the game increased skills. =p


edited to add: This is a joke, considering the thread.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nevermind - I didn't read the post completely.

[Clearsighted]

Well. That's why monstrously strong dwarves, muls and half-giants make bad instructors. Or maybe a human shouldn't be training recruits while etwoing a bardiche.

Even a half-assed recruit dwarf - let alone a mul or half-giant - can make hits like that though.  That's part of the problem.  And it's usually worse when said recruit etwos something - to which the instructor's only course may be to etwo there sparring pike or whatever so they they can actually make a reasonable exchange of blows before they have to end the match.

Then they should train muls and half-giants by throwing them into a pit, pissing on them, adding kerosene, tossing in a torch and a couple of sparring axes and letting the best monstrosity against nature win. Hell, toss a dwarf in there to.

/Doesn't give a damn about dwarves, muls and giants having a hard time sparring .

[Salt Merchant]

I think it's ridiculous that sparring weapons are as effective in real battle as any other weapon.

There might as well be just one club, one axe, one sword and one spear in the game. There's hardly much difference between two swords when it comes to who will triumph in a fight, for instance. Skill and strength are the determinants in the existing system.

[My 2 sids]

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

Why not? We aren't training martial arts here, we're training people to fight real determined threats. If someone has the philosophy that they don't hold back, then whats the problem with a change that allows this proverbial "master" to strike less critical areas? Or to strike lighter, or to purposefully pull punches?

Keyword being training   

Maybe a pack of 'rinither thugs or bynners would waste time and energy beating themselves to a bloody pulp, but any real unit of fighters wouldn't.   The point of training is to become stronger and learn more -- the exercises would be well thought out ahead of time and done so the students learn and grow.   

[Fnord]

I think it's ridiculous that sparring weapons are as effective in real battle as any other weapon.

Doesn't seem so strange to me. I bet Miyamoto Musashi would kill any of us with bokken if so inclined. It the moden era we have nice rubber weapons and stuff, but in Zalanthas it's still a bone or wood weapon with the edge dull. Harsh world, harsh sparring tools.

I maintain the only way to "fix" this, is an effort-like command, to notch down skills and/or strength. I bet if that was implemented it would see a lot of use!

[Synthesis]

I think it's ridiculous that sparring weapons are as effective in real battle as any other weapon.

There might as well be just one club, one axe, one sword and one spear in the game. There's hardly much difference between two swords when it comes to who will triumph in a fight, for instance. Skill and strength are the determinants in the existing system.

Actually, the differences between weapons (even when comparing ordinary mundane vs. mundane) can make a HUGE difference in damage, at least.  I haven't seen great differences in to-hit (which makes sense).  Sure, if you compare apples (human) to oranges (dwarf), it might not seem like a good weapon helps much, but between two humans, the difference is easily enough to change the outcome of a fight.

And we're not even getting into guilds that have critical strikes that are almost never OHKs, but can easily be THKs if you get a single hard attack in before they can spam flee.

So yeah, the quality of the weapons you use makes a huge difference.

[Kryos]

Agreed, weapons can add a substantial amount to how hard a character hits.  And while inhabitants in Zalanthas don't have rubber or the like, what's to stop them from wrapping say, pliable vines or something made of bone or wood to pad the weapon?  We all know harsh circumstances breed ingenuity. 

Still pumping this, there needs to be a way to allow people who are scary good or scary strong to train, be it a command or change to sparring combat.

[Twilight]

I don't view sparring on Zalanthas equivalent to going at each other with bokken.

Its more like practicing fencing without your facemask.  This is something best in the world type fencers have died doing.  Sparring weapons aren't "fake" weapons.  They are real weapons, dulled or with otherwise -minimal- modifications to not be quite as dangerous.

[HTX]

Yeah, I don't think the bokken analogy is a good one because there's a difference between attempting to kill someone with a wooden sword, and using said wooden sword for training purposes while trying to minimise injuries.

Unfortunately, the code can not, at present, distinguish between the two.

[jmordetsky]

If a dwarf hits you full strength in the head with a stick there is a chance he will crack your grape open.

This would be better solved by commands:
> change offense 50
> change defense 20

Where the number is a percentage value of your total offense. It lasts until you set it back or quit out.

That would fix sparring across the board. Allow people to hide skill (aka the princess bride thread).

It might allow people to twink badly.

> set defense 0
> kill jozhal.

[Synthesis]

If a dwarf hits you full strength in the head with a stick there is a chance he will crack your grape open.

This would be better solved by commands:
> change offense 50
> change defense 20

Where the number is a percentage value of your total offense. It lasts until you set it back or quit out.

That would fix sparring across the board. Allow people to hide skill (aka the princess bride thread).

It might allow people to twink badly.

> set defense 0
> kill jozhal.

Changing your offense wouldn't affect how hard you hit, so much as how often you hit.  A 0-day dwarf warrior with egood+ strength can still land grievous+ blows with sparring weapons.  Not frequently, but it's entirely possible.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36078.0.html

Handles all scenarios.

[Xeran Van Houten]

If any of you have played Gemstone, that's a big part of combat - the stance dance.  I want to say there are four stances, but there might be a fifth one, each one setting your unmodified offense and defense percent.  Offensive stance - 100% off/0%def, forward - 70% off/30% def, neutral - 50% off/50%def, then there might be one here I'm forgetting, and Defensive - 0% off/100% def. (I could be wrong on the percents as it's been awhile.)
In gemstone this works because each round of combat is manual and you have a "round time" counter. So you "att kobold", see Rt - 6 seconds, then you repeat.  The "dance" is where you're normally walking around in defensive, you find your kobold, kobold sees you and goes "kerplaaaah!" and jabs at you with its javelin, after the swing you go "stance off" and swing. Now hopefully your round time is 5 seconds (which is perfect and unencumbered - can't get less than 5) 'cause if you missed you're sitting there spamming "stance def" like the newb you are who couldn't hit a lvl 1 kobold with a big-ass hammer. Then everything repeats and that's gemstone combat, and potentially what people may try to do if there's no delay between setting off/def levels... Or at least letting it be done while in combat.


Just to note, more advanced gemstone combat looks like this:
>get dagger from sheath
You get your drake dagger from you leather sheath.
>hide
You attempt to blend in with your surrounds and feel confident you have hidden yourself well. (Or soemthing to that effect)
>sn n
You sneak north.
You see a kobold scratching in the dirt with its javelin.
>wait
Time drags by...
A kobold looks up and glances around a moment, finding nothing.
>stance off
Your stance is changed to Offensive.
>att kobold eye
You leap from hiding and jam your drake dagger through the eye-socket of the kobold!
(Insert the combat equation here.)
Your drake dagger flares up!
The kobold is charred to a cinder by a huge gout of flame!
The kobold crumples to the ground, dead.
Round Time - 5 seconds.
>stance def
Your stance is set to defensive.
>look ground
You see a crude drawing of what seem to plans for kobold world domination.
>shudder
You shudder.

[jmordetsky]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36078.0.html

Handles all scenarios.

Yar. Agreed.

[jmordetsky]

Your stance is set to defensive.

Be interesting to combine pre-sets like this with Venomz post for config. Like

> stances

You're available stances are:

defensive str 100 agil 100 off 0 def 100
offensive str  100 agil 100 off 100 def 0
training   str 10 agil 100 off 100 def 100

> change stance training

You change your stance to training.

But then also allow custom configs:

> set str 10%
> set off 50%
> set def 100%
> save stance training_with_runners

(I like % better then scale up scale down - seems a bit more simple)

So, next time Runner Big Pants was in the circle with me I could:

> chance stance training_with_runners

[Xeran Van Houten]

But as I said, it could very easily be abused in combat if it can be changed during combat.

[Yam]

But as I said, it could very easily be abused in combat if it can be changed during combat.

?

[Xeran Van Houten]

But as I said, it could very easily be abused in combat if it can be changed during combat.

?

You get stance dancing.

>att amos
>stance off
You slash amos hard.
>stance def
You deftly bock amos' attack.
>stance off

And you got the other person trying to do the same thing. So if you can change it while in combat, or at least without significant delay, you'll have a lot of complaints on your hands.

Or do you just still want my boots, yam?
They're mind, damn it! Go take Brandons!

[Praetorian]

Considering how many variables there are in combat, I think someone trying to 'stance dance' could easily find themselves in a worse situation than if they didn't.

Like, going to an offensive stance right when your opponent is unleashing a flurry of attacks...you get the crap beat out of you, and haven't found your next 'opening' to attack yet.

[Riev]

I don't get how the argument "They'll just stance dance in combat" is actually relevant, however. There are plenty of things that you can't do while "in combat" and I can only imagine it would be a simple thing to add a command.

Besides, I believe the idea set forth between me and 7DV would be more for 2.Arm. In the current incarnation with legacy DIKU code, its just not likely to happen unless a coder has some free time to work on it.

On topic: Sparring weapons really -can't- get worse than they are. Really. Saying that its not "realistic" doesn't really much matter because of the way combat code is handled and how damage is calculated. Having been crit by a 2h Dwarf with an axe with both a sparring -and- real one, I can tell you the damage reduction is exponential.

[Synthesis]

There's already a potential for stance dancing:

Say you're a dwarf, and you usually attack pretty slowly.  If you spend enough time observing this, you can actually calculate your mean time-to-next-attack.

So, grab your favorite shield, and your favorite weapon that can be held in either hand.

Attack.

change hands es ep

wait <mean time-to-next-attack> seconds

change hands es ep

You should attack again fairly soon.

change hands es ep

wait

change hands es ep

Note:  if I ever see anyone doing this in game, I will stab you in the face with a fucking agafari log.

[Lizzie]

Why did you post that?

"Here's how to min-max and get around the code by making use of the code. But don't do that."

Why explain how to do something, in detail, if you don't want people to do it? I never would've even thought to do that, until you posted it. Now I'm kinda curious to find out how that would work.

[Yam]

There is randomness built in to the system.

[Kryos]

There's another 'feature' about combat rounds I've seen players abuse in game, and I'd desperately like to see it nixed.  But its more of a with-staff only discussion, as I'd hate to see it proliferate. 

[Yam]

There's another 'feature' about combat rounds I've seen players abuse in game, and I'd desperately like to see it nixed.  But its more of a with-staff only discussion, as I'd hate to see it proliferate. 

Now you've gotten me curious too.

[Sephiroto]

Hello. I have KO'd PCs in three rounds with my fists.

Zalanthasn fists have chi.

[Clearsighted]

It's a little known fact that a dwarf's fists are the most dangerous weapons in the game.

[Qzzrbl]

Someone explain to me how stance dancing in a fight will do anything other than make you look like an idiot about to get killed?

It's not like you get bonuses for offense by not using defense. :/

[Xeran Van Houten]

It won't do anything other than that under the current system.

[Qzzrbl]

Yeah, but I mean if a stance system were implemented.... How exactly would changing from offense stance to defense stance in the middle of a fight give any advantage whatsoever?

[Gagula]

If you can properly change the stance in time, you could effectively bring 100% of your might into your swing for attack, and then come back and put 100% of your strength into your defense.....based on the system Xeran is refering to, it does an offensive/defensive check, multiplying the results by your stats.  Ergo, if you have 100 points in strength, 100 points in endurance, and 100 points in agility (for easy numbers), if you're in an offensive stance, it's 300pts of damage over 0 points of guard. Just flip the numbers around for defensive stance.  By bouncing between the two, one can constantly be on their best atributes in a fight....which is unrealistic and twinkish....if you ask me anyways.

[Delstro]

Unless it took time to move from offensive to defensive.
Such as this example when you move from Offensive to Defensive.
Offense:100 Defense:0
Offense: 75 Defense:25
Offense: 50 Defense:50
Etc.

[Qzzrbl]

Or, maybe, instead of using a system so easily abused, we could make it to where 100% is the max you can set anything.

[Xeran Van Houten]

I thought I said before it doesn't really work in ARM.  It only works in gemstone because of their combat mechanics, which are completely diffferent than ARMs.
I was giving an example of what can happen if you can change preset levels without a (good sized) delay.

[Qzzrbl]

Oh....

Well, in Arm, if the max of anything was 100%, then a delay wouldn't really be needed.

Because even if the change were instantaneous, one would find no advantage in stance dancing.

[Delstro]

What if instead of sparring weapons taking HP or stun, the sparring weapons took away your stamina? Each time you swing you lose stamina, each time you are hit, you lose stamina. This would physically limit sparring. You would have to rest eventually. Resting could lead to roleplay. It is a magickal circle.

[Reiloth]

What if instead of sparring weapons taking HP or stun, the sparring weapons took away your stamina? Each time you swing you lose stamina, each time you are hit, you lose stamina. This would physically limit sparring. You would have to rest eventually. Resting could lead to roleplay. It is a magickal circle.

For some reason I like this.