Sparring Weapon Change

[Riev]

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

Why not? We aren't training martial arts here, we're training people to fight real determined threats. If someone has the philosophy that they don't hold back, then whats the problem with a change that allows this proverbial "master" to strike less critical areas? Or to strike lighter, or to purposefully pull punches?

I do not think there is a way, as per this thread, that sparring weapons can be changed to have the impact that people are looking for. Knowing what I do about the code, a "level" sort of system where you choose how hard you go at it, sounds like the best, but I've said this before.

[musashi]

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

Why not? We aren't training martial arts here, we're training people to fight real determined threats. If someone has the philosophy that they don't hold back, then whats the problem with a change that allows this proverbial "master" to strike less critical areas? Or to strike lighter, or to purposefully pull punches?

I think the "you're a jerk if you go all out" mentality is based on the fact that if someone is an absolute beginner and you're an expert, and you just clobber them in two hits ... sure codewise in the game because of the way skill gains work they had a chance to learn something from that. But a person IRL probably wouldn't. In RL ... the proper way to train people in anything is to start small and let them build up to harder things as their profciency increases.

IRL no one has ever said: Man I'm so happy my guitar teacher just threw sheet music at me on day 1 and screamed: PLAY THE CLASSICAL MUSIC! I KNOW YOU CAN'T EVEN READ THAT BUT DO IT ANYWAY GOD DAMNIT! LOOK! I CAN!!! - Because it made me such a better guitarist learning like that, all hardcore ... grrr.

No one's ever said it abut learning languages either. The Japanese have this silly idea that if you just babble at them in English long enough at native speed they'll pick it up through osmosis. They have the lowest speaking language proficiency in all of Asia even though they're the most developed country.

I would be willing to bet that in martial arts ... the same method holds true. If you want an absolute newb to learn, you have to start them off on something small so they have the chance to learn and practice. Learning to "take a punch" is important too, and we did body hardening excercises in the military for that express purpose. But we started them off small for first timers, and then got heavy as your conditioning increased. IRL, that's how people practice things. And folks who insist on showing how much better they are at something over someone who is clearly a beginner ... are jerks 

But ... as I said, going by Arm's code. Sure plow away at them full strength, they'll probably learn faster that way, in the game.

[IntuitiveApathy]

What I used to do is stand there disengaged and emote defending a lot while they whiffed at me, and every now and then toss a quick hit back, predictably clobber them, rapidly disengage again and taunt them about keeping their guard up.

This works in some situations, sure.

But not when your one clobbering hit does a large amount of damage to the poor newbie.  It's just silly to have no choice at all in whether or not you're going to take someone's head off.  If the newbie is playing wounds realistically, you seriously just broke the newbie's arm, trying to teach him something?  Will you have any choice in breaking the newbie's other arm for your next strike?

Yes, Zalanthas is a harsh place, but clans that consistently destroy their own trainees generally don't end up with viable employees that can do any work.  Take the Byn for instance, one of the more grittier clans - you're expected to not train to the point of being hurt badly, as you're not worth anything if you're called on to go out to work afterward.  Sure, the rule is probably motivated by the OOC rationale to prevent spam spar powergaming, but it has a sensible IC basis as well.

[Qzzrbl]

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

Why not? We aren't training martial arts here, we're training people to fight real determined threats. If someone has the philosophy that they don't hold back, then whats the problem with a change that allows this proverbial "master" to strike less critical areas? Or to strike lighter, or to purposefully pull punches?

I do not think there is a way, as per this thread, that sparring weapons can be changed to have the impact that people are looking for. Knowing what I do about the code, a "level" sort of system where you choose how hard you go at it, sounds like the best, but I've said this before.

Also, a unit of crippled Byn doesn't make much money.

[Xagon]

Yes, I do think characters should be able to "pull their punches," regardless of the context

No, I don't think players should be able to determine the percentage of the character's skills (eg: tone down combat by 75%)

One other possibility would be transforming "Mercy" from a command to a skill in its own right. The higher your proficiency in it, the more likely you would -not- kill something outright. OOC things such as HP can easily be roleplayed out. If Amos is brought to 5 hp after an exceptionally rigorous, violent training session, shouldn't it take him some time to recover?

[Nyr]

Solution: everyone should play descending sun.

[Obeliskocism]

You can always pull your punches if you are emoting the fight and not engaging in coded combat.

[Adiadochokinesis]

You can always pull your punches if you are emoting the fight and not engaging in coded combat.

This, unfortunately, does little to remedy the situation in the future.

And by that, I mean it doesn't do jack for skills.

[Clearsighted]

What I used to do is stand there disengaged and emote defending a lot while they whiffed at me, and every now and then toss a quick hit back, predictably clobber them, rapidly disengage again and taunt them about keeping their guard up.

This works in some situations, sure.

But not when your one clobbering hit does a large amount of damage to the poor newbie.  It's just silly to have no choice at all in whether or not you're going to take someone's head off.  If the newbie is playing wounds realistically, you seriously just broke the newbie's arm, trying to teach him something?  Will you have any choice in breaking the newbie's other arm for your next strike?

Well. That's why monstrously strong dwarves, muls and half-giants make bad instructors. Or maybe a human shouldn't be training recruits while etwoing a bardiche.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Well. That's why monstrously strong dwarves, muls and half-giants make bad instructors. Or maybe a human shouldn't be training recruits while etwoing a bardiche.

Even a half-assed recruit dwarf - let alone a mul or half-giant - can make hits like that though.  That's part of the problem.  And it's usually worse when said recruit etwos something - to which the instructor's only course may be to etwo there sparring pike or whatever so they they can actually make a reasonable exchange of blows before they have to end the match.

[Riev]

Solution: everyone should play descending sun.

Wouldn't that be lovely, if the game increased skills. =p


edited to add: This is a joke, considering the thread.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nevermind - I didn't read the post completely.

[Clearsighted]

Well. That's why monstrously strong dwarves, muls and half-giants make bad instructors. Or maybe a human shouldn't be training recruits while etwoing a bardiche.

Even a half-assed recruit dwarf - let alone a mul or half-giant - can make hits like that though.  That's part of the problem.  And it's usually worse when said recruit etwos something - to which the instructor's only course may be to etwo there sparring pike or whatever so they they can actually make a reasonable exchange of blows before they have to end the match.

Then they should train muls and half-giants by throwing them into a pit, pissing on them, adding kerosene, tossing in a torch and a couple of sparring axes and letting the best monstrosity against nature win. Hell, toss a dwarf in there to.

/Doesn't give a damn about dwarves, muls and giants having a hard time sparring .

[Salt Merchant]

I think it's ridiculous that sparring weapons are as effective in real battle as any other weapon.

There might as well be just one club, one axe, one sword and one spear in the game. There's hardly much difference between two swords when it comes to who will triumph in a fight, for instance. Skill and strength are the determinants in the existing system.

[My 2 sids]

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.

Why not? We aren't training martial arts here, we're training people to fight real determined threats. If someone has the philosophy that they don't hold back, then whats the problem with a change that allows this proverbial "master" to strike less critical areas? Or to strike lighter, or to purposefully pull punches?

Keyword being training   

Maybe a pack of 'rinither thugs or bynners would waste time and energy beating themselves to a bloody pulp, but any real unit of fighters wouldn't.   The point of training is to become stronger and learn more -- the exercises would be well thought out ahead of time and done so the students learn and grow.   

[Fnord]

I think it's ridiculous that sparring weapons are as effective in real battle as any other weapon.

Doesn't seem so strange to me. I bet Miyamoto Musashi would kill any of us with bokken if so inclined. It the moden era we have nice rubber weapons and stuff, but in Zalanthas it's still a bone or wood weapon with the edge dull. Harsh world, harsh sparring tools.

I maintain the only way to "fix" this, is an effort-like command, to notch down skills and/or strength. I bet if that was implemented it would see a lot of use!

[Synthesis]

I think it's ridiculous that sparring weapons are as effective in real battle as any other weapon.

There might as well be just one club, one axe, one sword and one spear in the game. There's hardly much difference between two swords when it comes to who will triumph in a fight, for instance. Skill and strength are the determinants in the existing system.

Actually, the differences between weapons (even when comparing ordinary mundane vs. mundane) can make a HUGE difference in damage, at least.  I haven't seen great differences in to-hit (which makes sense).  Sure, if you compare apples (human) to oranges (dwarf), it might not seem like a good weapon helps much, but between two humans, the difference is easily enough to change the outcome of a fight.

And we're not even getting into guilds that have critical strikes that are almost never OHKs, but can easily be THKs if you get a single hard attack in before they can spam flee.

So yeah, the quality of the weapons you use makes a huge difference.

[Kryos]

Agreed, weapons can add a substantial amount to how hard a character hits.  And while inhabitants in Zalanthas don't have rubber or the like, what's to stop them from wrapping say, pliable vines or something made of bone or wood to pad the weapon?  We all know harsh circumstances breed ingenuity. 

Still pumping this, there needs to be a way to allow people who are scary good or scary strong to train, be it a command or change to sparring combat.

[Twilight]

I don't view sparring on Zalanthas equivalent to going at each other with bokken.

Its more like practicing fencing without your facemask.  This is something best in the world type fencers have died doing.  Sparring weapons aren't "fake" weapons.  They are real weapons, dulled or with otherwise -minimal- modifications to not be quite as dangerous.

[HTX]

Yeah, I don't think the bokken analogy is a good one because there's a difference between attempting to kill someone with a wooden sword, and using said wooden sword for training purposes while trying to minimise injuries.

Unfortunately, the code can not, at present, distinguish between the two.

[jmordetsky]

If a dwarf hits you full strength in the head with a stick there is a chance he will crack your grape open.

This would be better solved by commands:
> change offense 50
> change defense 20

Where the number is a percentage value of your total offense. It lasts until you set it back or quit out.

That would fix sparring across the board. Allow people to hide skill (aka the princess bride thread).

It might allow people to twink badly.

> set defense 0
> kill jozhal.

[Synthesis]

If a dwarf hits you full strength in the head with a stick there is a chance he will crack your grape open.

This would be better solved by commands:
> change offense 50
> change defense 20

Where the number is a percentage value of your total offense. It lasts until you set it back or quit out.

That would fix sparring across the board. Allow people to hide skill (aka the princess bride thread).

It might allow people to twink badly.

> set defense 0
> kill jozhal.

Changing your offense wouldn't affect how hard you hit, so much as how often you hit.  A 0-day dwarf warrior with egood+ strength can still land grievous+ blows with sparring weapons.  Not frequently, but it's entirely possible.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36078.0.html

Handles all scenarios.

[Xeran Van Houten]

If any of you have played Gemstone, that's a big part of combat - the stance dance.  I want to say there are four stances, but there might be a fifth one, each one setting your unmodified offense and defense percent.  Offensive stance - 100% off/0%def, forward - 70% off/30% def, neutral - 50% off/50%def, then there might be one here I'm forgetting, and Defensive - 0% off/100% def. (I could be wrong on the percents as it's been awhile.)
In gemstone this works because each round of combat is manual and you have a "round time" counter. So you "att kobold", see Rt - 6 seconds, then you repeat.  The "dance" is where you're normally walking around in defensive, you find your kobold, kobold sees you and goes "kerplaaaah!" and jabs at you with its javelin, after the swing you go "stance off" and swing. Now hopefully your round time is 5 seconds (which is perfect and unencumbered - can't get less than 5) 'cause if you missed you're sitting there spamming "stance def" like the newb you are who couldn't hit a lvl 1 kobold with a big-ass hammer. Then everything repeats and that's gemstone combat, and potentially what people may try to do if there's no delay between setting off/def levels... Or at least letting it be done while in combat.


Just to note, more advanced gemstone combat looks like this:
>get dagger from sheath
You get your drake dagger from you leather sheath.
>hide
You attempt to blend in with your surrounds and feel confident you have hidden yourself well. (Or soemthing to that effect)
>sn n
You sneak north.
You see a kobold scratching in the dirt with its javelin.
>wait
Time drags by...
A kobold looks up and glances around a moment, finding nothing.
>stance off
Your stance is changed to Offensive.
>att kobold eye
You leap from hiding and jam your drake dagger through the eye-socket of the kobold!
(Insert the combat equation here.)
Your drake dagger flares up!
The kobold is charred to a cinder by a huge gout of flame!
The kobold crumples to the ground, dead.
Round Time - 5 seconds.
>stance def
Your stance is set to defensive.
>look ground
You see a crude drawing of what seem to plans for kobold world domination.
>shudder
You shudder.

[jmordetsky]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36078.0.html

Handles all scenarios.

Yar. Agreed.