Sparring Weapon Change

[RogueGunslinger]

Fo sho.

[Fnord]

My problem with this on face level is it still allows the mul, high str human or dwarf, and heaven forbid the HG to one shot newbie Amos with an accidental hit, if sparring itself is not altered as well.  It's a good idea, mind you, but not the complete package.

Could reduce strength too, in additional to skill #s. I've been hoping for something like this for a long itme... it's like when a black belt spars a white belt. If they didn't mitigate their skill and strength, you'd see basically what happens in game lol, i.e. very quick ko or death (if weapons were used)

[Kryos]

This is not meant as a detrimental statement, but I get the impression some people just don't read or maybe digest before they post.  I've said before, realism I don't believe is the driving force here, RP and making it more *fun* is.  This is not for when you want to blast someone or make a statement.  Further, even with training weapons, I've nailed someone for 20 points on a 0 hour character.  On a nastier character I couldn't hit for LESS then 50 points with a freaking training weapon, dual weilding.  Lastly, even if you multiply the base skill by some significant fractal, you'll still do this when you do hit (and you eventually will, that's how Arm works).  As I've said previously, skill is only one part of the way damage is determined.  

I'm hoping there's a way to tone down the sparring attrition, and make it so those connects are thuds that disorient and mildly damage, rather then  blast them to the next King's age.  If this is done, sparring can turn into a more role-play oriented activity, where you aren't afraid of mulching someone in the the time it takes to type out a emote about the engagement.  

And Fnord, that would definitely be a requirement for making it work, I think.

[Gimfalisette]

As I've said previously, skill is only one part of the way damage is determined.  

Skill is the most important determiner of damage. Stats are not nearly as important, except in a contest between similarly-skilled opponents.

We're not misunderstanding you, we're disagreeing with you. Changing sparring weapons would not fix the actual problem.

[Kryos]

Skill is the most important determiner of damage. Stats are not nearly as important, except in a contest between similarly-skilled opponents.

We're not misunderstanding you, we're disagreeing with you. Changing sparring weapons would not fix the actual problem.

In a word:  What?   Skill does impact the damage calculation, but I assure you, STR is, save in the case of 50+ day characters, and maybe even then, the Alpha characteristic of damage computation.  

This is getting dangerously too ic info, though, so I can't expand on how this can be proven.  However, it should be *easy* to determine.

[spawnloser]

Kryos, I still think you're not listening to the response given by people like Gimf.  We're listening to what you're saying but we're disagreeing.  Skill is the primary determiner of damage after the weapon's coded damage roll.

[Kryos]

And my repeated response is: No, strength is.  If you want to alter the way sparring is handled, you either have to change the combat code for sparring to reflect a closer reality of arm of fist fighting, or be able to scale back str and skill, skill alone is not sufficient especially with races with big str bonuses.  Again, I won't bridge into the IC, but its child's play to show str being the far greater factor in damage dealing then skill once you've played a long lived character or two.

[Gimfalisette]

Have you ever played an 80-day warrior? Or an experienced leader regularly in charge of training noobs? Because the rest of us have.

[Halcyon]

I have.  I have come to different conclusions that you have.

Edit: I'm not sure there is any point to the discussion, seeing as how we cant present our proofs for reasons of IC information.

[Kryos]

I won't dive into the IC, but in a phrase, its easy to show how incorrect skill > str is.  I've seen it repeatedly and consistently, over and over again.

[BlazinDayz]

And my repeated response is: No, strength is.  If you want to alter the way sparring is handled, you either have to change the combat code for sparring to reflect a closer reality of arm of fist fighting, or be able to scale back str and skill, skill alone is not sufficient especially with races with big str bonuses.  Again, I won't bridge into the IC, but its child's play to show str being the far greater factor in damage dealing then skill once you've played a long lived character or two.

I find it interesting how you and some other players seem to "know" how the code works.

All unknown-to-player code aside, I believe sparring weapons should do less damage. Period.

[Qzzrbl]

Have you ever played an 80-day warrior? Or an experienced leader regularly in charge of training noobs? Because the rest of us have.

I have.

And I'd still say strength plays a -big- part in how much damage is done.

But let's shy away from such discussion, as it usually leads to thread lockage.

[Kryos]

Point, Qzz.  Sorry I got pigeonholed.  In short, I'd love to see a change to sparring, and think it'd help the game tremendously.

[Qzzrbl]

Point, Qzz.  Sorry I got pigeonholed.  In short, I'd love to see a change to sparring, and think it'd help the game tremendously.

Agreed.

[Gimfalisette]

To clarify my position: Changing sparring weapons might "fix" something that I see not as a problem but as a realistic consequence of letting someone who's scarily powerful smack at you. But it wouldn't fix what I believe is a true problem, which is the inadequacy of the tools a leader has to train minions.

If you are going to spar with an untrained half-giant, then you're taking a risk that your opponent's brute strength and inability to control him/herself might injure you.

But if you're sparring with your half-giant Byn Sergeant, it's dumb for your leader not to be able to hold back from killing you.

Also, your opponent who is using sparring weapons should be able to try to kill you if s/he wants.

The solution to these problems does not involve changing sparring weapons.

[X-D]

I don't agree for the most part.

At least not to any change to sparring. And changes to sparring weapons, not going to happen. And other then they are already at min damage, staff has stated other reasons in the past, and I agree.

Now, The ability to dial back you attacks I do agree with. But I also think that skill gains from all parties involved should dial back by the same %.

Low pain, low gain.

[Kryos]

I think the 'how', as I've said before, is a coder decision.  But it seems most agree the 'should' is a yes?  And I can't agree with you x-d.  I've learned a *hell* of a lot from my masters not ripping my face off, but rather out-skilling me.

Edit note: The borkeness of the teach verb I think also comes into play here.

[Qzzrbl]

I think the 'how', as I've said before, is a coder decision.  But it seems most agree the 'should' is a yes?  And I can't agree with you x-d.  I've learned a *hell* of a lot from my masters not ripping my face off, but rather out-skilling me.

Edit note: The borkeness of the teach verb I think also comes into play here.

Sure, the "How" may be a coder decision, but that doesn't mean we still can't discuss it.

A few other good ideas have been brought up.

::Edited to add:: Your masters didn't rip your face off because the sparring weapons didn't hurt.... I'd imagine he could've killed you with said sparring weapon if he so chose to do so. What stopped him was him holding himself back.

[Riev]

As one of the biggest proponents of having some sort of dial-back system, as I THINK me and 7DV at one point talked a whole bunch of game about it, I'm wondering. Did that thread ever go anywhere on the staff coder side? Is it something thought of for 2.Arm or anything?

[X-D]

And I can't agree with you x-d.  I've learned a *hell* of a lot from my masters not ripping my face off, but rather out-skilling me.

These types of arguements are pointless. Sure, your master has the skill to not rip your face off...why, because he/she has trained to NOT rip faces off.

And that is NOT what you are doing in sparring in arm, you are training to rip faces off.

Fact is, if you train with somebody and pull your punches IRL, then that is what you learn to do, Pull punches. And what is even worse is, your sparring partner is also pulling punches, so you do not learn to take full force blows. And believe me, if you do not have that learning, you are fucked for the real deal.

I cannot even begin to count the number of "martial artists" I've flattened in and out of the ring over the years. And I'm only a lowly boxer/brawler. But I can say that 90%+ was because they had never really been hit before and I have.

But Again, pointless arguement, we are all RL badasses over the internet.

[Kryos]

Hmmm, since this is about a scope more wide then brawling, I my continue to assert my disagreement.  Learning control of a weapon is a huge step in progress.  Leading to being able to change your angle of attack mid swing and land precision blows, as well as power generation.  Further, a dojo worth its salt has its upper ranks train full speed with no armor.  Rarely do bad things happen, yet all of these people then pick up their weapons and lay the pain out in practical sparring/matches.

I must say in a controlled environment, even very dangerous people would could kill with a single blow in a real conflict are able to study and improve themselves.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Now, The ability to dial back you attacks I do agree with. But I also think that skill gains from all parties involved should dial back by the same %.

Low pain, low gain.

I think a fair compromise here would be that the master who's taking it easy won't have any chance at learning at all (ie. improving his own face-wiping skills, because he's not really trying to face-wipe), and the trainee would still have a normal chance to learn.  This is because even though the master's not going full bore, if the trainee gets hit, the trainee is obviously doing something wrong.  When the trainee gets to the point where they can easily avoid the master's 'dialled back' fighting, then the master will have to unleash the hounds in order to teach the trainee further.  That's when the trainee will be learning how not to get dead when faced with a truly deadly opponent.

This is not entirely unrealistic in my opinion, and retains the point: to improve on the problem of sparring matches involving masters vs. trainees.

[Spice Spice Baby]

Now, The ability to dial back you attacks I do agree with. But I also think that skill gains from all parties involved should dial back by the same %.

Low pain, low gain.

I think a fair compromise here would be that the master who's taking it easy won't have any chance at learning at all (ie. improving his own face-wiping skills, because he's not really trying to face-wipe), and the trainee would still have a normal chance to learn.  This is because even though the master's not going full bore, if the trainee gets hit, the trainee is obviously doing something wrong.  When the trainee gets to the point where they can easily avoid the master's 'dialled back' fighting, then the master will have to unleash the hounds in order to teach the trainee further.  That's when the trainee will be learning how not to get dead when faced with a truly deadly opponent.

This is not entirely unrealistic in my opinion, and retains the point: to improve on the problem of sparring matches involving masters vs. trainees.

I would prefer this to the current method of "get bag, get bag, get bag, get bag, tell man okay now try to hit me."

[Clearsighted]

Have you ever played an 80-day warrior? Or an experienced leader regularly in charge of training noobs? Because the rest of us have.

What I used to do is stand there disengaged and emote defending a lot while they whiffed at me, and every now and then toss a quick hit back, predictably clobber them, rapidly disengage again and taunt them about keeping their guard up.

It worked pretty damn well. Course, with that PC I could stand there without any weapon at all and 10-20 day warriors would still whiff at him.

/was a ranger too

/ / That same PC also taught me that teaching half-giants to fight is a bullshit gig, man.

[Gunnerblaster]

What I used to do is stand there disengaged and emote defending a lot while they whiffed at me, and every now and then toss a quick hit back, predictably clobber them, rapidly disengage again and taunt them about keeping their guard up.

This works.

I don't really see a big problem with the way things are, to be honest. If two opponents are equally matched, it'll be an average-length spar with ample opportunity for roleplay / emotes. If it's Master Vs. Trainee - The disengage and strike at random, then disengage again tactic works wonders.

Unless your a jerk, Master's shouldn't be going all out against Trainee's anyways.