Economy

[Salt Merchant]

"Out of sight, out of mind" doesn't really work here, because people who don't affect the game are essentially a waste of space when it comes to major plots. They're not in a clan, they're not putting money towards clans or any authority, so they are a problem simply by stifling opportunities.

Finding it hard to believe some of the statements people are making here. So now indies are stifling opportunities and are a waste of space?  

Who ever said people have play the game with the intent of entertaining others? Unless they apply for a leadership role, I don't see any responsibility in that regard. Hopefully mutual entertainment arises as a by product of one's own entertainment.

[Cutthroat]

"Out of sight, out of mind" doesn't really work here, because people who don't affect the game are essentially a waste of space when it comes to major plots. They're not in a clan, they're not putting money towards clans or any authority, so they are a problem simply by stifling opportunities.

Finding it hard to believe some of the statements people are making here. So now indies are stifling opportunities and are a waste of space? 

Of course that would be silly as a standalone statement, but you're taking me out of context.

When it comes to major plots, indies have almost no place in them most of the time. Major plots are often clan-based. Indies have their own place and it's often not in clans... by definition. A templar or noble who wants to do something that requires money will, well, need money. Where's he going to get it from, if the people who are making money are hiding it away?

[Gimfalisette]

Do you really believe that grebber X's invisible 10,000 'sid bank account is spoiling the game for everyone?

Yes, I believe there are definite effects of this behavior, including causing players to choose to play indies over playing clanned, and putting apped leader PCs in subordinate positions to indies economically. Indies who play this way skew the game world away from how the documentation says things should be; it's analogous to what happens when there are too many non-mundanes and everyone is good buddies with those PCs.

[Salt Merchant]

A templar or noble who wants to do something that requires money will, well, need money. Where's he going to get it from, if the people who are making money are hiding it away?

I hope not by taking away weeks or months of others characters' hard work. If this really is a big problem, their stipends should be increased.

Plus, if they do take away the fruits of other characters' labor, those fruits will quickly dry up, which is my original point. Motivation disappears, and the nobles and templars are left with no more money anyhow.

[Qzzrbl]

Indies are just that, independent. They're not part of any clan. They're generally not part of clan plots, and certainly don't encourage people to join clans based on the clan's population. And on top of all that, they have the potential to make more money than nobles and templars, and everyone else, could even dream of seeing IG.

What exactly -are- they bringing to the game world, other than a little character interaction in between spam <insert money-maker here>?

[Cutthroat]

A templar or noble who wants to do something that requires money will, well, need money. Where's he going to get it from, if the people who are making money are hiding it away?

I hope not by taking away weeks or months of others characters' hard work. If this really is a big problem, their stipends should be increased.

Why should a stipend (money from staff to player) be increased if the money (not a huge portion, mind you - I'm not saying authority figures should completely rob a person) can be gained from player-to-player interaction, which is often considered the preferred method of dealing with anything?

Edit in response to your edit: SM, player-to-player interaction isn't one way. If the indies get something for their money just like anyone else would get something, shouldn't that be the optimal choice for players of leaders looking for money?

[Gimfalisette]

Who ever said people have play the game with the intent of entertaining others? Unless they apply for a leadership role, I don't see any responsibility in that regard. Hopefully mutual entertainment arises as a by product of one's own entertainment.

Do you have a responsibility to play the game according to the documentation? I think we all do.

Anyone in any position of power is almost certainly corrupt and everyone knows it.

Soldiers are paid a pittance and yet live fairly well. -Everyone- assumes this is because they are corrupt and taking bribes.

If you're not bribing, choosing instead to amass thousands of coins in the bank, then you're playing wrong.

[Salt Merchant]

Indies are just that, independent. They're not part of any clan. They're generally not part of clan plots, and certainly don't encourage people to join clans based on the clan's population. And on top of all that, they have the potential to make more money than nobles and templars, and everyone else, could even dream of seeing IG.

What exactly -are- they bringing to the game world, other than a little character interaction in between spam <insert money-maker here>?

Okay, so you are officially questioning the existence of independents in the game. You want Arm to be ClanMud (tm).

First of all, I don't think independents with fat bank accounts are anywhere so common as people are making them out to be here. They don't tend to survive all that long, for one thing.

Secondly, independents are capable of generating plots. I'll provide a simple example (I think it's been a year now). A gemmed Whiran of mine was able to raise some coin by drifting about grebbing. This took a couple of weeks of RL play. He became curious about the nose of a statue he had found in Red Storm, so he hired the Byn (at a rather generous premium) to go out and locate a statue he had heard rumors of and report its description. Fine, not only was that statue in possession of a nose, but it wasn't even the same material. So he spied another statue out in the desert, and again hired the Byn, this time to go retrieve it. He died before they got around to attempting this, but if they had, certain elves might have become very annoyed. And so it could have led to strife and fun.

Thirdly, low-rank clan roles can be very confining, especially during the inevitable down-cycles clans go through. They aren't for everyone, all of the time.

Fourthly, high-rank clan roles can be very taxing. I'm sure everyone is aware of this point by now.

So, no, I'd have to say independents definitely have their place in the game.

[Salt Merchant]

Who ever said people have play the game with the intent of entertaining others? Unless they apply for a leadership role, I don't see any responsibility in that regard. Hopefully mutual entertainment arises as a by product of one's own entertainment.

Do you have a responsibility to play the game according to the documentation? I think we all do.

Anyone in any position of power is almost certainly corrupt and everyone knows it.

Soldiers are paid a pittance and yet live fairly well. -Everyone- assumes this is because they are corrupt and taking bribes.

If you're not bribing, choosing instead to amass thousands of coins in the bank, then you're playing wrong.

Alright, I'm weary of these opinions presented as if they were solid facts and straw man arguments and innuendos. I'm not going to debate them further, so you "win".

[Qzzrbl]

Indies are just that, independent. They're not part of any clan. They're generally not part of clan plots, and certainly don't encourage people to join clans based on the clan's population. And on top of all that, they have the potential to make more money than nobles and templars, and everyone else, could even dream of seeing IG.

What exactly -are- they bringing to the game world, other than a little character interaction in between spam <insert money-maker here>?

Okay, so you are officially questioning the existence of independents in the game. You want Arm to be ClanMud (tm).

First of all, I don't think independents with fat bank accounts are anywhere so common as people are making them out to be here. They don't tend to survive all that long, for one thing.

Secondly, independents are capable of generating plots. I'll provide a simple example (I think it's been a year now). A gemmed Whiran of mine was able to raise some coin by drifting about grebbing. This took a couple of weeks of RL play. He became curious about the nose of a statue he had found in Red Storm, so he hired the Byn (at a rather generous premium) to go out and locate a statue he had heard rumors of and report its description. Fine, not only was that statue in possession of a nose, but it wasn't even the same material. So he spied another statue out in the desert, and again hired the Byn, this time to go retrieve it. He died before they got around to attempting this, but if they had, certain elves might have become very annoyed. And so it could have led to strife and fun.

Thirdly, low-rank clan roles can be very confining, especially during the inevitable down-cycles clans go through. They aren't for everyone, all of the time.

Fourthly, high-rank clan roles can be very taxing. I'm sure everyone is aware of this point by now.

So, no, I'd have to say independents definitely have their place in the game.

I don't Arm to be ClanMud, I want Arm to be brutal and scary, and require you to at least be paying -someone- to watch your ass if you don't have a clan to. This isn't happy fat bank-account indie land. If indies are capable of starting plots, I sure as hell haven't seen many step up and do so in my year of playing.

[X-D]

First, I have to say, though I am quite good at making money IG, indy or clanned.

By far my richest PCs have been clanned, one even passed 300k in only 12 IG years...but he was a special case.

Indy PCs, wealthy or not, are needed. They provide many things, from a good source for pickpockets and burglers (since clan compounds are much harder to get in and out of then apartments) To raider bait and trade with the clanned or more city bound PCs.

I have no problem with indy PCs being able to make thousands of coins a day and even keep the coin safe in the bank. Specialy if I'm playing a raider. Any smart raider is going to target unclanned PCs anyway, I mean who is going to back them up, maybe they have a couple other unclanned friends, big deal, more loot.

Maybe most the plots are low level pc to pc plots but hey, thats the day to day stuff and the game would be lacking without them.

[LoD]

I'm not really sure how this conversation devolved into a debate concerning the "validity" or "worth" of wealthy independent characters.  I've never doubted either of those two things, and have never seen any documentation that states independent commoners cannot amass vast sums of wealth or that imposes a limit on bank accounts, personal holdings, or anything of the sort.

I've witnessed plenty of independent characters subtly and overtly impact world-level quests and events over the years, however, what I think is being interpreted (mostly by Salt Merchant) as some attack on the viability of independent merchants is much less about keeping them down than providing ways to keep them involved.  My suggestion was for templars to be able to review the bank accounts of citizens of a given city and to potentially approach/coerce merchants with said "vast sums of money" at their disposal to consider funding city-based projects or further the plots of others.

Someone tossed out a number of 10,000 and people ran with it like that was in the documentation.

I'd imagine a scenario more like finding a merchant with 25,000 in the bank and asking them to fund a 1,000 - 3,000 coin mission for the city in return for some political/social favor.  As was mentioned before, this stimulates PC-PC interaction in a nice way that involves multiple socioeconomic levels (e.g. nobles need templars need merchants need nobles/templars).  It's not picking on people as much as it is involving them, and providing channels or avenues through which characters can make things happen.

Independents are important, useful, and helpful pieces of the grand puzzle -- they are a necessary layer to providing depth.

That said, don't be so afraid of someone considering unique ways to connect you to someone else.

-LoD

[deviant storm]

No thanks.

Your entire argument is based on "I don't like it because I want to get to do what I want, without interference from the game world," rather than on actual analysis of the problems of the economy.

This is a game, meant to be played for fun. Not an economic simulation.

And your fun, rather than the fun of the playerbase as a whole, is the priority for you. We get that. I still call it twinking.

Actually, I agree with Salt Merchant for once. And I don't think it's really conducive to this thread to flame. Please don't.

You can't guarantee those costs you glibly calculated, not taking into account that the sid mines only pay if someone else hasn't got to the mining office first. Or stocked the shop with whatever it is you're trying to sell. I've never had a rich character, other than the Borsail nobles I played once upon a time. My grebbers were always struggling to buy enough to buy a tent before they finally gave up and joined up with someone or died trying to make a few sids. Forget the apartment. I never even got that far.

Edit: Wanted to add that I don't think I'm the only one with this difficulty. I think the Indie types are necessary. I've known a couple who did in fact impact the game world to one extent or another. Frankly this whole thread seems to be inclined to do one thing and one thing only: Make the game harder for those of us who aren't super-good at amassing money. I'd just as soon not have the option of being independent taken away. That's where this is headed.

[Gimfalisette]

You can't guarantee those costs you glibly calculated, not taking into account that the sid mines only pay if someone else hasn't got to the mining office first. Or stocked the shop with whatever it is you're trying to sell. I've never had a rich character, other than the Borsail nobles I played once upon a time. My grebbers were always struggling to buy enough to buy a tent before they finally gave up and joined up with someone or died trying to make a few sids. Forget the apartment. I never even got that far.

As far as I'm aware, the change to the mining office was made precisely because it was far too easy for players to amass coins. Now, it is still easy for those players who know how to game the system effectively to make a lot of coins on 'sid mining; it's just not easy for the players who get there too late. When it comes to clay foraging or cotton-picking or salt-grebbing, the numbers still apply there as well. There aren't any limits on those activities.

Some players aren't good at learning to game the system in order to amass coins, and it sounds like you're one of those. If that's true, then you're not the problem we're discussing here. I would suggest you go back and read the original post in the thread. The player who posted that is not by any means the only one who has ever figured out how to effectively game the system; heck, -I- can game the system, and I'm generally pretty poor at powerplaying. And there are many other veteran players who know exactly how to set up a new PC and run immediately out and start making wads of cash.

Edited to add: The change that was made to shops, where their goods get sold off to VNPCs over time rather than money only mostly replenishing at reboot, has also made it much easier to make money, IMO. If you know what to sell and where to sell it, making money is very easy.

[Halcyon]

After having played several independant merchants and grebbers, my impression is that five craft skills provide a majority of the abuse, because of lack of competition, lack of risk, uneven shop access, or very high material investment to profit ratios.  Maybe that would be a better place to target the changes.

[deviant storm]

You can't guarantee those costs you glibly calculated, not taking into account that the sid mines only pay if someone else hasn't got to the mining office first. Or stocked the shop with whatever it is you're trying to sell. I've never had a rich character, other than the Borsail nobles I played once upon a time. My grebbers were always struggling to buy enough to buy a tent before they finally gave up and joined up with someone or died trying to make a few sids. Forget the apartment. I never even got that far.

As far as I'm aware, the change to the mining office was made precisely because it was far too easy for players to amass coins. Now, it is still easy for those players who know how to game the system effectively to make a lot of coins on 'sid mining; it's just not easy for the players who get there too late. When it comes to clay foraging or cotton-picking or salt-grebbing, the numbers still apply there as well. There aren't any limits on those activities.

Some players aren't good at learning to game the system in order to amass coins, and it sounds like you're one of those. If that's true, then you're not the problem we're discussing here. I would suggest you go back and read the original post in the thread. The player who posted that is not by any means the only one who has ever figured out how to effectively game the system; heck, -I- can game the system, and I'm generally pretty poor at powerplaying. And there are many other veteran players who know exactly how to set up a new PC and run immediately out and start making wads of cash.

One or two players, Gimf. One or two players get there first. Everyone else looses out. And my post was more in answer to the whole rest of the thread, people saying indies add nothing to the game, etc, etc.

Keep in mind not everyone knows how to work the game. How about the newbies? I just don't want to see us messed over because there are some people who take it too far.

[Gimfalisette]

One or two players, Gimf. One or two players get there first. Everyone else looses out. And my post was more in answer to the whole rest of the thread, people saying indies add nothing to the game, etc, etc.

Keep in mind not everyone knows how to work the game. How about the newbies? I just don't want to see us messed over because there are some people who take it too far.

No one here is advocating for indies or newbies or whoever to get screwed--and I certainly never said that indie wasn't a valid playstyle or that indies didn't have the potential to contribute to the game. But the current state of the game is such that apped leaders do get screwed, because they just cannot compete with the coin that savvy indie players can make. It unbalances the game.

There are coded ways to fix things that would not screw newbies or indies who play within the guidelines of the documentation. For example, craft skills could be fixed; ratios of resource use or cost could be changed; a limit could be put on the obsidian (or salt or wood or whatever) sales of individual PCs per day lest a templar be notified; LoD's suggestion of templars being able to find out who's got a lot of money could be put in. There are so many possible changes that would fix these problems.

If you're not the problem then you're not the problem. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

[Lizzie]

I don't see anyone recommending anything that even remotely resembles taking things too far (regardless of who is the judge of "too far" this week).

What I see, is that independents *can* (not always do, not always want to, but CAN - meaning - are capable of) make FAR more sids than clanned people who are in positions where their jobs require them to make sids.

I've played both sides. I've played them often and even my rangers tend to be merchants. I've never had any trouble earning sids, AS LONG as I had access to NPC shops. Unfortunately, as an official pc for a gmh, my experience is that the access to NPC shops is limited. When you're a PC in a GMH, you're not -allowed- to sell to the shops your clan owns/operates. You're also limited as to the percentage of profit you're allowed to earn on things your clan sells. You can't just make a 50-sid widget and sell it to Templar HatesMe for 5000 sids. Not even that the templar would pay that much, but you're not *allowed* to charge that much.

As an independent, you're allowed to buy and sell whatever the fuck you want, to whoever's willing to buy it, at whatever price you can scam someone out of, and there ain't nobody can tell you otherwise.

As for the cost of living to Gimf..outdoors people don't count after the first few weeks of existing, because it's assumed that they have the skinning skill and have been making use of it during that first few weeks, and have gotten good enough they can skin their own supper. If they're rangers, they can also find places to get food without having to kill a single critter, OR pay a single sid. So the cost of outdoors people I would say is "on average" lower than your accounting, if you figure that in to the equation.

The problem with an independent merchant with 10,000 sids in the bank that they're sitting on, is their buying POWER. Sids can be power in Armageddon. That merchant might be sitting on it today, but that merchant could very well afford to buy a contract on PeeWee-Di Kurac's head. Independent merchants should certainly be able to amass that kind of sids..no doubt about it, it's just too damned easy to do.

However, Independent merchants should ALSO be easier targets for getting thoroughly stomped into the salt flats if they start showing off their riches in such a way as to make PeeWee-Di wonder why she isn't as rich as Indie is. When some independent fuck starts sauntering around wearing head-to-toe silks and dripping in diamond jewelry, Kadius SHOULD be pissed off. Independent fucks are lower class than Kadians, and they need to remember their place. When they start dressing, adorning themselves, and buying themselves better than their betters, then they SHOULD be worried they're gonna wake up headless the next morning. Buying includes contracts, and gathering groups of employees that PeeWee-di can't hire now, because they're already employed by Indie. When Indie's crappy 250-sid apartment has 4 employees using it as a sparring ring, this is a problem. When Indie's bank account is high enough that they can buy a contract to kill the templar who made them pay extra for their merchant token, that is a problem. When Indie's sids have purchased the favor of three nobles, to the point where those nobles are rejecting business with GMHs in favor of the Indie, it's a problem. GMHs *should* feel free to come down on that shit. Templars *should* feel free to come down on that shit. Nenyuk rental agents *should* feel free to come down on that shit.

But everyone's told to be nice to the indies because they're not really competition? I call foul. In a huge way.

It's an IC problem..and if you don't see that it's an IC problem, then perhaps you are seeing it from the perspective of the problem.

[Myrdryn]

The economy has some problems.  Part of the problem is the crafting code.  Basically creating things foraging, of which there is an infinite supply in the game.  If you have enough time, you can forage and get as much as you want of something, or hunt something to the point you get more than enough (unless a staff member changes the supply, otherwise it is infinite, over time).  This is something that would require a major overhaul, probably a reborn problem to be solved.

But as far as this game goes, I think much of the responsibility rests on the players.  Much like playing any role.  Many other aspects of the game are unbalanced in this way, but people continue to roleplay according to the documentation which is nobles/templars/merchants are generally rich, when in actuality it's usually the other way around.  Why?  Because merchants nobles and templars are held to standards, while independents aren't.

I like the idea of templars being able to find out someone's bank balance.  That would help templars know who they could 'approach', and who they shouldn't waste their time with.  I think that if everyone knew just how many independents got rich and couldn't do anything with all those riches because they are just independents, you'd be surprised.  Imagine being able to look at everyone and see their bank balance (or how much coins they had tucked away), I think everyone would be surprised just how many people horde coins and feign poverty, and just how poor the 'power players' (merchants/templars/nobles) really are.  Personally I think templars should be squeezing independents more, go get the money they need to get things done.

[ibusoe]

I have a concern regarding the in-game economy and methods pertaining to the acquisition of wealth. Despite what the game's setting and documentation would have me believe, making money has proven to be incredibly easy unless one deliberately refrains from the many opportunities that crop up for one's character. I have found that even the most primitive forms of work, such as scavenging corpses, mining or picking leaves yields an income to rival that of actual jobs, jobs of supposedly high status such as house merchants or various kinds of sergeants and officers. I understand that this used not to be the case and that a multitude of income venues were introduced to the game along the way.

This is a somewhat common gripe among a few players, however it has been discussed extensively. 

Most of the freelance jobs that make a lot of money are somewhat dangerous.  In essence, you can consider these sorts of characters to be gith bait or raider bait.

Also, these jobs are not that easy or lucrative if you take the time to properly role-play out all the steps involved in each task.  Suffice it to say that if you're pulling in too much money at these sorts of jobs, you're either highly talented or else a twink.  For every person who finds it "too easy" to play as an independent character, you have one or two other dudes who are unable to survive on their own and flee to the safety of a clan, to say nothing of the people who enjoy clanned characters for the social aspect.

Additionally, all of the resources that get harvested, towards which you're referring, may seem plentiful at times however when there are swells in the player-base competition for these sorts of resources can become quite fierce.  In the not-so-distant past, some players were able to establish a small-scale monopoly over certain mining operations and effectively muscle-out other players.

Not so easy for them, is it?

If you still aren't challenged, you might have to face the fact that you could be some kind of a keyboard-badassed.  Similarly, some people find Super Mario Brothers, Halo or Guitar Hero to be too easy.  A better description of the problem could be that you're too good. 

Also, you should probably be spending about 2/3 of your character's income on beer or spice.  Or an apartment.  After that there won't really be much left.

[Melody]

Too much has gone before, so I won't bother with quotes:

1 -  (LoD?)Templars looking at bank accounts. The first time I as a character might think it is a lucky guess. Second time I will wonder. By the third time, all my friends and cousins and their friends and cousins will know to open an account under a fake name with Nenyuk.  If I am Nenyuk, I will begin to do something about it too. And what if a southern templar is looking into someone's bank account, but that someone only got money in the north and is in fact a northern spy? So on. Please. Don't do this.

2 - (Lizzie?) Of course each clan has guildlines on how much to charge. I remember selling some noble people a set of something for over 4500. They are worth like 900. Sure, my boss was irritated, then he met the person, and came back and told me he was more irritated that I didn't scam them for more. Of course, the boss might have lied, but the point is, there are exceptions to everything, you just have to know how to go around it without getting into too much trouble. My clanned, Merchant char had over 40k in the bank. (around half are from dead friends, but hey, clannies make friends and live long, so money are made through inddies who die often)

3 - On harvesting sids from inddie by templars. Sure. Go ahead. Do it. If you go overboard, you won't ever find any inddie playing near you. But that's the deal. It will make for much ic fun and conflict. One day, they will gather together and purchase an assassin on you, even more fun!

[Melody]

the most creative of players feel unduly constrained by this aspect of playing a noble. It's extremely frustrating and definitely contributes to the premature storage of many noble and templar PCs.

The said noble/templar needs better minions in this case. Or become better at harvesting potentials. A good aide or servant is not only money saving, but also can create vast amount of sids from bribes. Have several would make the career. Those bribes mostly come from independent merchants or characters. Basically, they sell the noble/templar's favors. They can get things arranged so that plots costs little and people would do it for favors. (or the mere pleasure of rping with such brilliant nobles/templars) At several stages, I had my noble/templar patron not paying my char cos their wage would look a pittance. -_- Mind that I do give them a cut from the bribes.

My point is simply that things should be looked at from a RP enforcement manner rather than giving templars or nobles more coded benefits. I just... shudder to think of nooplars and noobles having such power.

[LoD]

1 -  (LoD?)Templars looking at bank accounts. The first time I as a character might think it is a lucky guess. Second time I will wonder. By the third time, all my friends and cousins and their friends and cousins will know to open an account under a fake name with Nenyuk.  If I am Nenyuk, I will begin to do something about it too. And what if a southern templar is looking into someone's bank account, but that someone only got money in the north and is in fact a northern spy? So on. Please. Don't do this.

Why wouldn't Nenyuki records be available to templars of either city-state, and why wouldn't their interests fall to commoners showing inflated or unusual activity.  Are they taking bribes, not what they seem, extremely frugal, brilliant businesspersons, talented thieves or burglars?  The point of having templars be able to view thriving bank accounts would be to promote interaction and make it a little more difficult to simply hoard wealth as a commoner.  PC's might need to learn to keep their assets invested in other things, spend their money more quickly, hide their money in different locations, or subject themselves to the occasional poke or prod from the templarate.

I don't find any of these scenarios to be a "bad thing" for Armageddon.  Redistribution of wealth is always a good thing for the economy, and if templars are encouraging small amounts of these funds to be used for promoting plots, connecting with nobles, or furthering their station, I don't find the increased interaction to be bad for the game either.  Nenyuk has been a safe haven for nearly as long as the game as persisted, and I don't see any logical reasons as to why that is -- templars wouldn't touch bank accounts of organizations large enough that could give Nenyuk pause for holding their coin.

And you may be assuming how much templars would be harassing these players, or how much they would be taking.  I don't really see it as a penalty as much as an opportunity for both sides.  What good are 50,000 coins if they sit in your bank account and disappear when you perish?  I would see the templarate concerning themselves only with the super-wealthy of the independents, and using it mostly as a chance to interact with those PC's and see how they could weave into the stories of the city-state.  These independents who are approached and, ultimately, engaged in some opportunity may end up making political allies, furthering their status, or even finding doors open to them to make even more money than they were beforehand.

I'd like to see more reasoning behind why you wouldn't want to see these things than "Please don't do this."

-LoD

[Melody]

1 -  (LoD?)Templars looking at bank accounts. The first time I as a character might think it is a lucky guess. Second time I will wonder. By the third time, all my friends and cousins and their friends and cousins will know to open an account under a fake name with Nenyuk.  If I am Nenyuk, I will begin to do something about it too. And what if a southern templar is looking into someone's bank account, but that someone only got money in the north and is in fact a northern spy? So on. Please. Don't do this.

Why wouldn't Nenyuki records be available to templars of either city-state, and why wouldn't their interests fall to commoners showing inflated or unusual activity.  Are they taking bribes, not what they seem, extremely frugal, brilliant businesspersons, talented thieves or burglars?  The point of having templars be able to view thriving bank accounts would be to promote interaction and make it a little more difficult to simply hoard wealth as a commoner.  PC's might need to learn to keep their assets invested in other things, spend their money more quickly, hide their money in different locations, or subject themselves to the occasional poke or prod from the templarate.

I don't find any of these scenarios to be a "bad thing" for Armageddon.  Redistribution of wealth is always a good thing for the economy, and if templars are encouraging small amounts of these funds to be used for promoting plots, connecting with nobles, or furthering their station, I don't find the increased interaction to be bad for the game either.  Nenyuk has been a safe haven for nearly as long as the game as persisted, and I don't see any logical reasons as to why that is -- templars wouldn't touch bank accounts of organizations large enough that could give Nenyuk pause for holding their coin.

And you may be assuming how much templars would be harassing these players, or how much they would be taking.  I don't really see it as a penalty as much as an opportunity for both sides.  What good are 50,000 coins if they sit in your bank account and disappear when you perish?  I would see the templarate concerning themselves only with the super-wealthy of the independents, and using it mostly as a chance to interact with those PC's and see how they could weave into the stories of the city-state.  These independents who are approached and, ultimately, engaged in some opportunity may end up making political allies, furthering their status, or even finding doors open to them to make even more money than they were beforehand.

I'd like to see more reasoning behind why you wouldn't want to see these things than "Please don't do this."

-LoD

I won't hope to be half as eloquent. But here is my simple reasoning and speculations. They probably don't apply to half the playbase, and no research is involved. Simple personal opinions.

- IC Trust and Nenyuk. The realism of the current House Nenyuk's miraculous banking system aside, any banking system operates on trust, when that goes, the system will fail. Templars can dig into existing organization bank accounts already. But to do it on an individual basis is another matter. Any tribal worthy of their salt would know not to trust the bank. However, they have their little tents or wherever to keep their stashes, or simply carry the sids in their packs. For the rest of us without clan compounds, I know I would never trust the bank if this new coded power comes into being. Get a character with haggle skill, and I will convert all my sids into valuable goods instead and bribe the local crimelord rather than dealing with nooplars. (ivory rings are light to carry) I suppose it does create rp. Just not the kind you hope for.

- OOC Trust and Templars. This is an ooc problem I have. This opinion is solely of my own and in no way reflect the playerbase in general or staffs' judgments. Now. I don't trust templars' players. We all know the standard for sponsored role. So there is a very real possibility that the templar I might be dealing with had read the documentation without any real understanding. After too much unpleasant encounters, I try my damnest to avoid people who do unrealistic things with no regard for consequences. (e.g. Hi noble, sure I will go kill the bard over there who might have insulted your aide for you. So what if he is the lover of Lord Oash and patroned by the Lady Valika, he is just a commoner, I am a templar!)

- Penalty vs opportunity. I do not mind penalty. I can stand pain. Hell, I had my share of torture and rape and interrogation and assassination rp. Some made me cry. When my characters die, they inevitably leave tons of shit behind that would number in six digits apartments, never mind the bank accounts. But I hate constant harrassment. I am not sure of others. But being independent character does not mean I am plotless. I want to rp my own shit, not to be harrassed for sids every single time I log on. That can pretty much ensure my character gets the next place in the storage request line. It is easy to engage in opportunities that may end up making political allies, furthering status, finding doors open to make even more money before hand without this added code power to the templar. I don't want some templar I never heard before finding my character's mind one day asking for a meeting when I have 100 in my bank. Maybe templars can only access the list of people who have over 10k in their bank account? Although if that is the case, my account would be permanently at 9,999 sids. I don't like twinkage, and I will feel guilty about doing this. I guess my account will be at 9k.

- Little bits of other problems. I do not like templars have this much coherent information at their disposal. If this happens, I would ask to be able to open bank accounts under multiple names. It is unlikely to happen. I am sure I can live with the change and find other ways. Also, does the bank list has my character's real name, or full sdesc? That enters an entirely different discussion.

[LoD]

- IC Trust and Nenyuk. For the rest of us without clan compounds, I know I would never trust the bank if this new coded power comes into being. Get a character with haggle skill, and I will convert all my sids into valuable goods instead and bribe the local crimelord rather than dealing with nooplars. (ivory rings are light to carry) I suppose it does create rp. Just not the kind you hope for.

Increased interaction converting sid into commodities, bribing local crimelords, or even bribing local templarate to avoid this type of scrutiny upon one's activities sounds like just the type of RP we could hope for, especially when the alternative is nothing.  While I agree that banks operate on trust, we're talking about a very small section of the populace -- individuals who are likely not politically protected or affiliated that have a bank account in excess of ~20,000 coins.  I just don't see it impacting enough of the populace to cause a "run on the banks" or make Joe Commoner reconsider where he keeps his savings.

- OOC Trust and Templars. I don't trust templars' players. We all know the standard for sponsored role. So there is a very real possibility that the templar I might be dealing with had read the documentation without any real understanding.

I don't think there's much to be done here that isn't already (hopefully) happening as much as possible.  Most templars already have complete control over the life of your PC, so I guess I just don't see them approaching you about a bloated bank account as being all that bothersome -- especially when it could lead to more positive forms of interaction.

- Penalty vs opportunity. I do not mind penalty. I can stand pain. But I hate constant harassment. I am not sure of others. But being independent character does not mean I am plotless. I want to rp my own shit, not to be harassed for sids every single time I log on. That can pretty much ensure my character gets the next place in the storage request line.

This is where I think there will be the assumption that, because your character is wealthy, you will be harassed by the templarate every single playing session.  I definitely don't think that's the intention of making this type of change.  And while I certainly can't guarantee that it wouldn't somehow result in frequent harassment, it seems likely that (at any given time) you'd only have to deal with 1-2 PC templars in a city-state, and I would hope that you would only have to deal with them from time to time.

As I mentioned before, I don't see them going after people with 2,000, 5,000, or 10,000 in their banks -- but more the 20,000+ crowd.  That's whom I would be going after if I were a templar, because not only do they have enough money to spare a couple thousand for the good of the Highlord, they also have obviously developed the ability to earn such high amounts of coin and I doubt it would be long before they replenished their supply.

It also adds another layer of benefit/protection PC's would enjoy in the employ of a Great Merchant House.  If being in Kadius, Kurac, or Salarr bought you a hefty degree of immunity from such approaches, it might better reflect the social disadvantages and vulnerabilities an independent would probably feel operating amidst the "big boys".

I really appreciate you posting your concerns, though, because I do think it's extremely important that something like this wouldn't ruin people's fun or turn them away from the game.  I don't necessarily think it would, but it's always best to investigate multiple angles.

-LoD