Economy

[flurry]

Depends if you find a patron or not. But I've seen many people more or less come out of chargen and segue into extremely comfortable, tavern-sitting roles, just by crossing paths with a noble or GMH head. And that bard pc will probably survive and thrive just fine until they die.

I don't know; maybe your experiences playing bards (if you have) were different than mine, but a noble patron is hardly going to shower anyone with coins that they don't have in the first place. There's a big difference between tavern sitting in a nice outfit and actually making money.

Ironically, the way the game is played, I think the ideal patron for a bard would be a grebber.

[Gimfalisette]

No coins from hunting, mining, foraging or crafting? The only people that get rich are those which somehow manage to be showered with the privilege of leading armies or exploring new areas?  No doubt, those who first proved their rping chops by being exceptional emoters of singing and dancing, which is the other example of an 'acceptable' way to earn sids.

So playing a bard is the prime moneymaking venture in the Gimfageddon universe...but going out and bringing down a creature twice your size, then skin it, and maybe, fashion the hides or bones into some useful piece of equipment and sell it...should be reduced to subsistence existence. Because living by the sword outside the city walls is just a bunch of twinky, economy skewing crap, right?

I do not know what the fuck your problem is with me, dude. For the record, my primary sources of coin when I've played a bard have been crafting and burglary--not patrons or money from donations, by any means. And, the first bard I played (who was socially successful and all that) died in a hunting accident because I was trying to scrape up enough coins for water and food. You have a really weird perception of how things actually work for bardic PCs, and you should go back to the IM chatroom with your badmouthing me rather than bringing it here.

[Clearsighted]

Maybe people should start trying to bribe those struggling 2-15 day warriors and rangers, instead of not deigning to notice them until they are 40-50 day+ powerhouses who got to that age doing something besides serving in a city-state's militia. Yeah, those guys are going to laugh in your face.

Remember, 95% of all those 'badasses' end up getting folded into one organization or another. I can really only think of a handful that managed not to, and usually, they were trying to recreate the good old days by building up their own merc company or hunting group, like used to be encouraged and lauded way back when. VERY few just continue on, being a loner, aimless superhunter without meeting a lonely, aimless death without you ever hearing about them.

There are huge advantages to joining an org. Safe storage is an important thing to a lot of those 'twinky hoarders'. And I think those trying to form their own independent companies should be admired. It's harder than it looks.

[Clearsighted]

No coins from hunting, mining, foraging or crafting? The only people that get rich are those which somehow manage to be showered with the privilege of leading armies or exploring new areas?  No doubt, those who first proved their rping chops by being exceptional emoters of singing and dancing, which is the other example of an 'acceptable' way to earn sids.

So playing a bard is the prime moneymaking venture in the Gimfageddon universe...but going out and bringing down a creature twice your size, then skin it, and maybe, fashion the hides or bones into some useful piece of equipment and sell it...should be reduced to subsistence existence. Because living by the sword outside the city walls is just a bunch of twinky, economy skewing crap, right?

I do not know what the fuck your problem is with me, dude. For the record, my primary sources of coin when I've played a bard have been crafting and burglary--not patrons or money from donations, by any means. And, the first bard I played (who was socially successful and all that) died in a hunting accident because I was trying to scrape up enough coins for water and food. You have a really weird perception of how things actually work for bardic PCs, and you should go back to the IM chatroom with your badmouthing me rather than bringing it here.

lol. I think you're getting a bit too defensive, and too personal dear. I was merely reacting to your suggestion to reduce all activity that isn't part of an RPT or entertainment emoting to subsistence level. And there's no Gimf-bashing IM chatrooms to hang out in that I know of. If there are, someone should PM and set me up.

So chill out.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

One of the things that I think I'd like to point out is that nobody (at least, no one who thinks about it for 4 seconds) thinks that indies getting money is wrong, or twinky. Some of us really do wanna tavern sit or whatever, but lots of us just wanna run around, kill things, explore, gain skills, etc, in an RP enforced environment, without the hassle of clanship. We like the grind, but we like it better when there's RP to be had alongside it. And coin naturally comes with that grind, and it should.

And that's fine, actually.

But there really should be a ceiling on an independent's success, and it shouldn't be an insurmountable one, but there should be a ceiling, and it ought to be pretty low. To overcome it, you should have to work very hard at it, and suffer along the way.

I think the dual coin system really addresses this concept, and it does so without being unrealistic, too. It also enforces the concept of the poor man and the rich man, which is pretty much what Zalanthas revolves around. If you need High Coin to buy that awesome sword, all of the Low Coin in the world won't help you get there. You'll have to manage another way to get it, through trade or favor or whatever. Meanwhile, you can still run your independent merchant clan, or your mercenary guild, or your band of thieves just fine, because you have coin to pay them for food, lodging, animals, common armors and weapons, etc.

Yeh, I really like the idea of the dual coin system. A lot.

[Gimfalisette]

Maybe people should start trying to bribe those struggling 2-15 day warriors and rangers, instead of not deigning to notice them until they are 40-50 day+ powerhouses who got to that age doing something besides serving in a city-state's militia. Yeah, those guys are going to laugh in your face.

...what? This in no way would fit with the game's documentation or the world in general. You've read the docs, right?

I was merely reacting to your suggestion to reduce all activity that isn't part of an RPT or entertainment emoting to subsistence level.

Oh, I see you didn't read my post either. I guess you just don't read.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Knock it off, you two.

Heh.

[Clearsighted]

Maybe people should start trying to bribe those struggling 2-15 day warriors and rangers, instead of not deigning to notice them until they are 40-50 day+ powerhouses who got to that age doing something besides serving in a city-state's militia. Yeah, those guys are going to laugh in your face.

...what? This in no way would fit with the game's documentation or the world in general. You've read the docs, right?

I was merely reacting to your suggestion to reduce all activity that isn't part of an RPT or entertainment emoting to subsistence level.

Oh, I see you didn't read my post either. I guess you just don't read.

I honestly apologize if I wrote something that you took as personal. I also apologize if my humble reading comprehension was not up to par, since your original post seemed pretty straightforward to me. I have no problem saying sorry, cause whatever contempt I might feel is directed towards your ideas, not you. And if you feel otherwise, or if I misinterpreted your vision, then hell, my bad, right?

But I've been playing off and on, (admittedly, more off than on) since around 2000, and I'm honestly curious as to how this statement contradicts the docs:

Maybe people should start trying to bribe those struggling 2-15 day warriors and rangers, instead of not deigning to notice them until they are 40-50 day+ powerhouses who got to that age doing something besides serving in a city-state's militia. Yeah, those guys are going to laugh in your face.

If anything, surviving long enough to grow powerful and well connected enough to where you can start playing hardball with those city-slicker bastards, carving out your own sphere of influence by the strength of your sword arm, was once a cherished staple of the Armageddon experience.

I don't think those rare few that manage to make it entirely independent, surviving, killing and triumphing for over 50 days of playing time outside the walls are expected to kowtow to anyone who tosses a few small sid in their direction.

In any case, as most people except those in this thread apparently know, the vast majority of long-lived warrior/ranger/hunter sorts, are already working for one clan or another, and the few that don't, typically tried and failed to create their own merc or hunting guild, as in the old days.

But if I'm mistaken, I'm very much interested to learn how it really is. And again, I'm sorry if anything I write strikes you as personally directed. It's not.

[Gimfalisette]

stuff

OK. Apology accepted or miscommunication over or whatever. Cool.

Vision: Let me re-articulate. The details aren't really important. What I'm saying is: Make the grindy parts of the game lead to competent subsistence living (the ability to buy food, water, basic apartment, basic equipment, spice), but when PCs have moved beyond the need to grind because they are now in the 10 to 20 to 50 to 100 day range and are uber skilled and badass or whatever--then change their method of acquiring more toward the non-grindy. If you're playing a badass warrior who can kill badass critters, then, let's reward you for the ability to do that, beyond the simple fact that you might bring those pelts home. Let's give you unique, interesting, non-grindy opportunities (quests, mansa would call them) to make money. Let's take you off the grind because you simply have more interesting, more rewarding things to do.

The part of your statements that I meant was out of sync with the docs is the idea of bribing newish warriors and rangers. That just doesn't make sense. Bribes are what you give to people who potentially have power over your PC.

I think you noted previously that there isn't typically, now, support for indie PCs who want to do legendary things rather than grinding; and I agree with you, there hasn't been. I think there could be, in theory, though--especially with the recent staff changes in the "choose your own adventure" direction.

[musashi]

I'm wondering if something as simple as having every item in the game be craftable, coupled with REALLY lowering the worth of all raw material goods, would make a dent in moving the economy back in the right direction.

I get where Clearsighted is coming from. I play hunters all the time, and really enjoy the respect that comes along with having a PC who is able to down salt worms, mek, bahamet, kryl, and Muk only knows what else when he goes out hunting.

I like being given respect for those abilities, and I like being noticed by the templar and nobles who want to use my character for their own selfish purposes. It's a lot of fun, and it happens in game all the time, already. People do try bribing those 14-15 day rangers and warriors. I know because it happens to my PC all the time. He gets hit up for favors constantly and it often brings with it a ton of great PC to PC interaction.

But what I wish was different ... was the fact that when these PC's (nobles, templar, and commoners alike) come to my PC asking for favors; they honestly never have anything to bring to the table; and I only ever end up doing the favors because I'm bored OOC'ly and want to feel like my PC is up to something other than just skill grinding.

I almost want to laugh when a noble asks my character to go bring them some rare pelt, gland, skull, or whatever ... and has like 200 coins to "sweeten the deal". I want to laugh ... except I know that to that poor noble PC, that's a lot of money.

And it's not even like I twink out on hunting either. One doesn't have to, and there is rarely even a point in doing so since the shops have limits on how much of something they'll buy ... and now you can't store it on your balcony for a rainy day  .

But seriously ... killing one kryl ... or three duskhorn (all very reasonable for a week long hunting trip in my opinion) will net one more than what a noble or templar seems capable of scraping together. I'm tired of being offered three large to bring back samples of rare critter poison and thinking to myself ... pffft, I'll just use the poison myself to practice, that's more valuable an activity than anything they're offering.

Right now the only time it makes sense for my PC to be interested in what another PC has to bribe them wth, is when they're basically selling the skill boosts staff gave them as a sponsered role via the "teach" command, or they're selling in game knowlege that once you know ... you know ... and it takes a huge amount of self control to unknow for your next PC. I'm talking about crafting receipes, poison secrets, knowledge of in game areas ... the things that don't go away when you see the mantis head.

I love hunting and having a PC who can rough it out in the wilds living on their own ... but I really wish that the coin you could get from selling raw shells and leathers and what not was a hell of a lot lower. That way the stipend nobles and templar receive would actually mean something.

It's been said that "well nobles could get grebbers to go greb for them and turn the coin over so then they would have more money" and ... aside from the difficulies associated with getting a grebber PC to give you their hard earned cash for nothing ... I feel like that would be just as uneffective as having staff increase their stipend 10 fold. If the game was flooded with even MORE money ... ugh.

[Salt Merchant]

I think it should be clear that the day templars start tapping whichever indie has money in a bank account (regardless of the level of toil that was involved in building that sum and regardless of the purpose the indie has been accumulating the sum for, since these things would not be visible), and thereby drains that indie's potential for generating plots in favor of the templar's potential, is the day Red Storm and Luir's will finally become major player hubs.

[MarshallDFX]

a PC who is able to down salt worms, mek, bahamet, kryl, and Muk.

[musashi]

a PC who is able to down salt worms, mek, bahamet, kryl, and Muk.

Stop posting my PC's objective on the GDB!!!!

[Dar]

Right now the only time it makes sense for my PC to be interested in what another PC has to bribe them wth, is when they're basically selling the skill boosts staff gave them as a sponsered role via the "teach" command, or they're selling in game knowlege that once you know ... you know ... and it takes a huge amount of self control to unknow for your next PC. I'm talking about crafting receipes, poison secrets, knowledge of in game areas ... the things that don't go away when you see the mantis head.

Umm ... well, that made me uncomfortable.


The rest of the post is 'reasonably' understandable.

[flurry]

I almost want to laugh when a noble asks my character to go bring them some rare pelt, gland, skull, or whatever ... and has like 200 coins to "sweeten the deal". I want to laugh ... except I know that to that poor noble PC, that's a lot of money.

I'm tired of being offered three large to bring back samples of rare critter poison and thinking to myself ... pffft, I'll just use the poison myself to practice, that's more valuable an activity than anything they're offering.

See, this is why the upside-down bizarro distribution of wealth is a problem. And we wonder why people burn out on noble and templar roles.

[Halcyon]

Okay, let me ask this another way.  Are merchant guild characters in such short supply, or do nobles and templars have so little to trade for their efforts?  Its an enforced grouping game, right?

[musashi]

Right now the only time it makes sense for my PC to be interested in what another PC has to bribe them wth, is when they're basically selling the skill boosts staff gave them as a sponsered role via the "teach" command, or they're selling in game knowlege that once you know ... you know ... and it takes a huge amount of self control to unknow for your next PC. I'm talking about crafting receipes, poison secrets, knowledge of in game areas ... the things that don't go away when you see the mantis head.

Umm ... well, that made me uncomfortable.


The rest of the post is 'reasonably' understandable.

It makes me uncomfortable as well, but I feel like the it's the current situation. I wish money mattered more, but I think that the game, by design, just makes it all too easy to come by for folks who shouldn't be comming by it that easily. Where as the ones who should be able to come by money easy, are barred from doing so. It's ... weird ... to force yourself to RP out the exact opposite of reality. It would be like we're all in a room with an elephant, but we have all decded to pretend the elephant isn't there no matter what it does, breaks, or poops on.

[Gimfalisette]

Okay, let me ask this another way.  Are merchant guild characters in such short supply, or do nobles and templars have so little to trade for their efforts?  Its an enforced grouping game, right?

Guild merchant has nothing to do with nobles and templars, really. Nobles can be of any guild they can get the imms to let them be, and templars are their own special guild types. Merchant PCs really shouldn't usually be employed by nobles and templars for the purpose of being crafting bots, because that area of the game should be fulfilled by GMHs and certain tribes.

The problem is that what nobles and templars have to offer--which is primarily the social status of associating with them, and the potential of being involved in plots--is often not interesting to indie or unclanned PCs. Nobles and templars cannot competitively offer to pay indies for services or favors, because indies can make much vaster sums of money just by normal coded grebbing/hunting. Nobles and templars also often don't have access to cool items, unless they can get those cool items through GMHs just like anyone else can (which requires money the nobles and templars don't have). musashi pretty much outlined it above.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Musashi is right, really. Unfortunately.

Which is why I think the two coin idea is awesome. That way, like I say, commoners can do common things and buy common things and horde common coin and organize common clans and go pretty far, but at a certain point, it just won't matter without High Coin, which they can rob for, steal for, kill for, trade for, favor for, etc.

Nobles and Templars are limited in how they can get coin, and despite what anybody thinks, it's not easy. Nobles Houses do certain things, and that's all, and deviation from that path is watched closely and pounced on swiftly. A stipend does not make a Noble rich, particularly when they use it all on plots. Templars have a little more freedom, but not much.

[Melody]

I think we have veered from the original intention of the post, but anyway.

The 'Currency' of the Economy, once you graduate from the newbie stage with no ride or contact, is no longer sids.

Maybe it is just me, but I am jaded to the stage that I will be far more appreciative towards a lovely ring or dagger that is worth 500sids than you giving me 1000 sids to buy whatever I want. It felt more like being given pocket money.

The problem, seems to me, is that nobles/templars/sponsored roles are still using a somewhat obsolete currency to influence the other PCs. If you want to use sids to make me do something, then sorry, perhaps you suck so much that I would rather hack sids for 1000 hours than rp 1 hour with you. (I never hacked sids for money, just saying as e.g.) However! If you are going to lever your influence to talk to Agent Kadius over there to help me get that ultra exclusive piece of shit at a reasonable price, I will get off my ass to do what you want.

Thus I think Dar's duol currency idea is nice. It will actually give the intangible favor system a tangible body. This way, some new characters who got into the political role will not get frustrated. Most noble/templar trying to use sids as a lure, it is at a somewhat wrong start already.

As a side, I honestly don't get how aides or bards would starve. Usually, I throw sids at them and applaud and smile and praise just so they can stop singing/emoting. From how rich some bards I come across had became, I am not alone. It is not that they are bad. I simply can't stand it. Maybe you poor bards are performing to the wrong audience!

On Gim's remark since I am bad with quotes:

I am sorry. Those quests ideas really suck to me. I know they are just examples. But I really dislike DnD style quests. Go to that place. Fetch 10 rat skins. You will be rewarded with the Sword of Rat Slayer should you survive. Rinse. Repeat with the Sword of Ritikki slayer.

No thank you. Once I got enough sids to rent apartment/buy wagon/kill noble 329/cut off bard's tongue, I generally stop making money. If I was selling to Kadius for 100k a week before, now I only do it for 100 sids a week. Just rping out the routine so any spy that want to find out my source of income has a lead. If those kind of quests are created, I will simply sit here and idle and not join because I am a lazy girl and unless I find a plot interesting oocly, icly, my PC will react with ignorance and lack of interest. It helps when my char has not so bright wisdom, too, to make it stay ic. (which assassin/warrior/ranger would prioritize wisdom first anyway?)

Bribery, especially at higher ups, is not sids. (repeat) If you are an excellent rper as we all are, the fun you give me in rp is usually half the bribery. The old saying: it iis not what you do, but how you do it.

Sure the economy is broken. But the bribery system does function fine right now.

[musashi]

True story from my first character ...

A tuluki noble offered him two small in exchange for going out and killing three cilops, and bringing some of the skinned goodies back for study, and my PC had to say to him: Um, you know two small isn't going to even cover the cost of the arrows I'm going to go through hunting these for you, right?

My point? I don't think the way the indie PC's are behaving is the problem. What are we supposed to say to that? There is only so long one can expect a commoner character to keep doing favors and financing a noble/templar character before they start thinking: This is insane ... I'm financing this guy so he can order me around! What the hell is going on here?! And as I said in my post above, I don't think most indie characters spend their time going twink twink twink greb greb greb hunt hunt hunt craft craft craft SELL SELL SWEET JESUS YESSSSS!!!!

All an inide character has to do is go out hunting once ... go wrestle cattle once ... go mine obsidian once ... and they already have more money than the two small that noble was offering me to go and do a "quest" for. It seems to me like its just all out of whack in a serious way. Oh and ... sorry to the player of that noble, I'm not picking on you at all dude, you were a great role-player, just a victim of circumstance!

I um ... I really don't like the two coins idea, because that seems like putting a bandaid on a ruptured stomach. And I think it would eventually just become another weird part of the overall problem.

I think the best way to fix things, would be to make basically everything craftable ... and have someone go through the price of items in given locations and change them to better reflect consistency with what we would expect from aworld like Zalanthas, both how much they are bought, and sold for.

But I know that's a retardedly large work load to ask staff to do on their free time along with everything else they already do. I just wish staff would do something like, put out an announcement for people to apply to help them write crafting recipies, and help them go through areas of the game those players are already really familia with and offer repricing models for everything.

As much work as it would be, I think if the players were helping in a controlled, trusted manner, then the work would get done.

Things always advance faster in the private sector  

EDIT to Melody: That seems like the "elephant in the room" thing to me again. The joy of RP is the reward so we'll ignore the fact that the noble or templar physically can't afford to compete with me in terms of buying power ... even though I'm not doing anything wrong, and neither is he, it's just the way the game is designed ... and pretend that he can while I work for free, or at cost to myself in order to keep the illusion going.

Yes ... I agree that that's how we do things now, but I'd like to see that changed so that we didn't have to.

[Riev]

True story from my first character ...

A tuluki noble offered him two small in exchange for going out and killing three cilops, and bringing some of the skinned goodies back for study, and my PC had to say to him: Um, you know two small isn't going to even cover the cost of the arrows I'm going to go through hunting these for you, right?

True story. Doing things for Templars often gets you involved in other plots, or makes you more approachable and "useful" in their eyes. Also, some people don't hunt cilops with arrows. True story, Quick would just walk up and spit on them and they would die.

Regardless... I think people -far- underestimate how much coin is in this game. As a high profile PC, I still do my best to not horde up a massive amount of coin, but its an RP thing for me. I've never had more than 2000 coins at any given time, because if I did I would buy stuff, or pay PCs to do things for me. Or buy off bartenders, etc etc.

I think people make a legit amount of money, but they spend a ridiculously small amount.

That is all.

[musashi]

True story from my first character ...

A tuluki noble offered him two small in exchange for going out and killing three cilops, and bringing some of the skinned goodies back for study, and my PC had to say to him: Um, you know two small isn't going to even cover the cost of the arrows I'm going to go through hunting these for you, right?

True story. Doing things for Templars often gets you involved in other plots, or makes you more approachable and "useful" in their eyes. Also, some people don't hunt cilops with arrows. True story, Quick would just walk up and spit on them and they would die.

Regardless... I think people -far- underestimate how much coin is in this game. As a high profile PC, I still do my best to not horde up a massive amount of coin, but its an RP thing for me. I've never had more than 2000 coins at any given time, because if I did I would buy stuff, or pay PCs to do things for me. Or buy off bartenders, etc etc.

I think people make a legit amount of money, but they spend a ridiculously small amount.

That is all.

Again with the



I get that we do it for the RP. I do it for the RP. I went and got said noble's cilops. Nearly every PC I make goes and whores themselves out to the nobility because I know how tough a role they're playing must be and I want to help them make "stuff" happen in the game. I get it. I really do.  It just bothers me that we do it for the RP and nothing else, because everyone knows quite candidly just how poor the "rich" folk are in comparison to the "poor" ones.

It seems like what you and Melody are saying is basically: I choose to RP it this way. And that's cool, that's basically how I RP it too; I usually don't go over the 10k mark in money with my PC's because ... I just don't feel like they need that much, unless there is some big big event they are trying to bust their ass to finance. But I don't see how that helps to fix the problem with the way the game is designed.

And sorry for all the editing, and re-editing, I kept forgeting stuff.

[Zoltan]

I think people make a legit amount of money, but they spend a ridiculously small amount.

That is all.

That's how I've usually seen things. Just spend that 'sid, guys! You can't take it with you when you're dead!

As to the issue at large, yes, I agree it's all out of whack. I have no helpful advice, though.

[Melody]

EDIT to Melody: That seems like the "elephant in the room" thing to me again. The joy of RP is the reward so we'll ignore the fact that the noble or templar physically can't afford to compete with me in terms of buying power ... even though I'm not doing anything wrong, and neither is he, it's just the way the game is designed ... and pretend that he can while I work for free, or at cost to myself in order to keep the illusion going.

Yes ... I agree that that's how we do things now, but I'd like to see that changed so that we didn't have to.

Unfortunately, all that a noble or templar can give to any of my characters that I can see, (once they pass the newbie stage) is their power and influence. This is something no indie can get for themselves, or even a clanned aide. If a noble/templar does not know how to harness that, then not only they will have nothing I want, I won't even serve under them as minions. Any aide knows how important it is to have a supportive noble/templar if they want to live long while doing plots.

I think people make a legit amount of money, but they spend a ridiculously small amount.

I am not good at maths. So I am trying here...

When I am a newbie PC, the proportion of my spending is almost equal to my income. As I become better and more long lived, the ratio goes down. Once I am, say, pass 20 playing days, to use sids is only possible with NPC shops.

True story:

- Me wanting to nurture a budding shaddy char. Hand him 1000 sids. He turned it down politely. Ask  him what he wants. He wants picks. Give him 5 picks instead.

- Found an assassin to kill a target. Hand him 2000 sids. He turned it down politely. Ask him what he wants. He wants to booze with me and exchange information and bail him out of some trouble as favor returning. (which he is better off, I mean, at the time, I'd bail people for a 3k bribe, cheap bastard!)

- Found a spy to spy on someone. Hand him 500 sids. He turned it down politely. Told me she wants a meaningful, long term partnership build on trust. Ask her what she wants... so on.

This all happen on different characters on a regular basis. The only way I could spend money is to purchase from Merchant Houses for expensive items as gifts to those people. But everyone has a merchant buddy as best friend, so it is not all that expensive either when you become a regular customer. However, we all know how long it takes them to respond with an order. (the quickiest is 1 week) So spending is slow, unless I go throw money at the street.

I am all for musashi's suggestion on an overhaul. But it seems so daunting. I can live with the current system if the alternative is killing our staffs.

For doing things for RP. When there is nothing you can give me that I want, rp is really their only option.