Economy

[deviant storm]

it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Twinking in what way? There are something like 350 templars in Allanak. And 500,000 commoners. You don't believe it realistic that a commoner could go relatively unnoticed?

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

Again, I do not always want to be the guy living hand to mouth if I play an independent. I have a hard enough time making a go of it and surviving. Sure, a few people overdo the moneymaking angle. It happens. But why limiit everyone's options because of a few people? I cannot emphasize enough my distaste for this thread and what some of you seem to want to happen.

[musashi]

Finally, I don't think it's at all about PCs feeling like they can do better than GMHs -- I think rather PCs not being good enough to secure employment with GMH. 

I have to respectfully disagree with this part. I don't like playing in clans because my PC is usually under far less restrictions and making far more money (to put to use plotting and the like) as an indie; and for me ... ability to go where I want when I want and deal with who I want + money to make things happen = lots and lots of fun.

Just my own opinion of course, but I think that as things stand, most folks playing in clans are probably playing in them for either the "flavor" of RP the clan provides, or for metagame information (like ... I'll play a crafter in Kaidus and learn a lot of crafting recipies, then I as a player will have a much easier time with any crafting PC's I decide to play down the line)

[Lizzie]

...for metagame information (like ... I'll play a crafter in Kaidus and learn a lot of crafting recipies, then I as a player will have a much easier time with any crafting PC's I decide to play down the line)

And I as a player of a leader character will be even more suspicious, wary, and fed up with having to hire people who's *players* only want to join the clan so they can learn recipes, quit, and go out on their own or store to have new characters that already know the information.

Please don't do that.

[musashi]

I don't have any comment on whether doing so is good or bad.

I just think that it happens. It's been stated before on the general board that folks will play a clanned crafter then go play an indie one once the recipies are learned ... or they'll play a gemmed mage so that when they play their next ungemmed one they already know the in's and out's of how the class functions, branches, survives.

My only point is that I think the chief two reasons most people would want to be in a clan are:

For the flavor you get from RP'ing being a Bynner/Kuraci/Kaidan/Tribal
To learn IC things about the game you would have a hard time learning on your own like crafting/magick.

And that the reason most assuredly is not:

Because the money is good.

So, I disagree with my 2 sid's opinion, as quoted above, because I think that the reason most PC's abstain from joining clans is precisely because they feel like they can do better on their own.

[Lizzie]

Oh I know it happens Musashi. It happens regularly. You might be surprised (or not) to learn how often a leader character is actually TOLD icly... "I want to join your GMH to learn what you can teach me, and then go out on my own and make my fortune." It happens often enough that it's easier to just tell everyone "We're not hiring" and then hope to run into someone who might actually stick around and be worth hiring.

It gets to the point where you can even empathize with the Byn leaders, having so many of them join -exclusively- for the training, then leave the second they're given the option. The Byn needs seasoned troopers in order to go on all those dangerous contracts - if all they ever get are Runners who leave the second they show that they can actually do the job, then they'll never really be qualified to go on all those contracts. But, that's a drawback of having a clan that focuses on its training program. GMHs don't have training programs like that, but damn if the vast majority of guild_merchant or assassin/jewelers don't try to use them for that anyway.

To the ones who get hired by clans (especially GMH) because their characters really want to join that specific clan, I say kudos x 100 and your characters are worth their weight in copper. Just don't tell that to their boss

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Lizzie's right.

[Gimfalisette]

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

Again, I do not always want to be the guy living hand to mouth if I play an independent. I have a hard enough time making a go of it and surviving. Sure, a few people overdo the moneymaking angle. It happens. But why limiit everyone's options because of a few people? I cannot emphasize enough my distaste for this thread and what some of you seem to want to happen.

I believe you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that your indie PC should only be able to make 50 coins per day; I am saying that 50 coins per day worked would be a typical wage for your average commoner. So, when an indie PC makes far, far more than that per day worked, then that PC is exceptional--and exceptional PCs get noticed. Go ahead and refuse to live "hand to mouth" if you want, that is fine; but no PC should get to expect to do that and somehow be exempt from playing by the rules of city society. It's akin to wanting to play a rogue magicker: Great, go ahead! However, if you're doing it inside a city, you will (almost always) eventually be noticed and targeted because you are the exception, and because society has rules.

Like mentioned, there is no IC reason for a GMH to feel threatened by indie PCs (Don't see McD's attacking the 12-seat burger joint down the street).  However, I do think the Templararate may want to take notice if someone is sitting on 10k coin.  Reason being, why do they have that coin?  Sounds suspicious.   And by OOC standards, well maybe that player should be given a nudge to actually -do- something with that coin.

Actually, in the real world, large corporations do aggressively defend their trademarks all the time, even against the smallest of potential competitors. And you're right, what we're talking about is that players should be doing something with their coin to better the game, not just sitting on it. Players of nobles and templars don't get to just sit on their coin (the little they get), they're supposed to use it for plots--so why is it OK for indies to hoard?

I don't like playing in clans because my PC is usually under far less restrictions and making far more money (to put to use plotting and the like) as an indie; and for me ... ability to go where I want when I want and deal with who I want + money to make things happen = lots and lots of fun.

The thing about indies using money to pursue plots is that 1. Mostly they don't, so if you do you're actually a rare exception; 2. Even if an indie does pursue a plot, due to the current game structure and nature of imm support, they're only going to be able to pursue character-level plots. And character-level plots are fine and good and part of the salt of the game, but they are not clan-level or city-level or world-level plots, nor are they likely to develop into those higher-level plots. For the most part (again, current game structure and imm support), those higher-level plots are the responsibility and the privilege of apped leadership PCs. Apped leadership PCs are the PCs who have the hardest time making coin, due to social restrictions; and yet they are supposed to be responsible for making big plots happen.

So, honestly, if indie PCs are refusing to involve themselves in the bribe-support cycle which helps apped leadership generate money for higher-level plots, then those players are simply being selfish and harming the game.

[Ghost]

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

what are you talking about?  zalanthas has 200+ days in a month, fifty coins a day would mean 10000+ coins a month when the average clanned is paid 300-500 around that much and you are saying it is not enough to live on?

i dont know if nobles are paid that much

gim is wrong on account she gave too much money to the average commoner

several years ago a staff member (or a helper) posted on gdb that an average commoner makes about 400 coins in a YEAR

now lets assume pcs are exception but if the average pc is making more than 1k in a month that pc is farming too much sid for his own good unless he is feeding the templars and militia some of it

[Gimfalisette]

gim is wrong on account she gave too much money to the average commoner

several years ago a staff member (or a helper) posted on gdb that an average commoner makes about 400 coins in a YEAR

now lets assume pcs are exception but if the average pc is making more than 1k in a month that pc is farming too much sid for his own good unless he is feeding the templars and militia some of it

Well, I based my number on what it's possible to make by codedly digging clay in Tuluk, which, if you really did it for a full Zalanthan day would be in the range of 30 to 50 coins.

But yeah, you're right about what the staff said.

[Ampere]

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

what are you talking about?  zalanthas has 200+ days in a month, fifty coins a day would mean 10000+ coins a month when the average clanned is paid 300-500 around that much and you are saying it is not enough to live on?

i dont know if nobles are paid that much

gim is wrong on account she gave too much money to the average commoner

several years ago a staff member (or a helper) posted on gdb that an average commoner makes about 400 coins in a YEAR

now lets assume pcs are exception but if the average pc is making more than 1k in a month that pc is farming too much sid for his own good unless he is feeding the templars and militia some of it

Heh, reminds me of my favorite account note:

Has 21000 in Nenyuk, yet still is in UT backstabbing and looting NPCs for gear.

[deviant storm]

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

Who says it should be fifty coins a day? I disagree with that. It isn't enough to live on, really. Between food, water and stable fees costs it turns into a losing proposition. It's all fine to say commoners should be poor as dirt. It's another to severely cripple the average joe players (including some of the newbies) and really screw with the game's playability.

what are you talking about?  zalanthas has 200+ days in a month, fifty coins a day would mean 10000+ coins a month when the average clanned is paid 300-500 around that much and you are saying it is not enough to live on?

i dont know if nobles are paid that much

gim is wrong on account she gave too much money to the average commoner

several years ago a staff member (or a helper) posted on gdb that an average commoner makes about 400 coins in a YEAR

now lets assume pcs are exception but if the average pc is making more than 1k in a month that pc is farming too much sid for his own good unless he is feeding the templars and militia some of it

That might be accurate IF the PC...

-worked every day of that month. On many jobs, you can't always work them/get paid the full 50 sid per day. Either it's storming too bad, there are too many wicked things in the way, the clay/mines/whatever just aren't producing that well for you that day. These things fluctuate.
-played every day of that month. Most of us don't. We have to log off occasionally to deal with real lives.
-don't spend any time doing anything else except working during every day of that month.

While some people do the last, those of us who spend time in roleplay with other people would just like to be able to make a few sid and get by, without threads like this convincing staff that sid should be harder to make.

Not every character is hireable by a clan.

And if someone wouldn't mind, I'd love a link to what some staffer/helper said about how much the average commoner makes.

[jcljules]

Just my own opinion of course, but I think that as things stand, most folks playing in clans are probably playing in them for either the "flavor" of RP the clan provides, or for metagame information (like ... I'll play a crafter in Kaidus and learn a lot of crafting recipies, then I as a player will have a much easier time with any crafting PC's I decide to play down the line)

I disagree with this. You know why I like playing in clans? Because clans give my character a defined 'slot' in society. When I play in a clan, I know roughly how I should be treating others and how others should be treating me. Clans provide a structure for interactions and for creating plots and without them there would be little continuity or realism to the world. They also force players to acknowledge vNPCs -- if there were no merchant houses, the only thing that would matter would be the amount of coins a merchant PC had. Clans, and particularly staff input in them, forces players to work with things that ICly exist but have no basis in the code. Which is a good thing.

And this is coming from someone who's first three PCs were all haggle-spamming indie merchants. I made somewhere around 20K, all hoarded in Nenyuk. It was boring, nobody loved me and it just kind of sucked.

Clans.

Like mentioned, there is no IC reason for a GMH to feel threatened by indie PCs (Don't see McD's attacking the 12-seat burger joint down the street).  However, I do think the Templararate may want to take notice if someone is sitting on 10k coin.  Reason being, why do they have that coin?  Sounds suspicious.   And by OOC standards, well maybe that player should be given a nudge to actually -do- something with that coin.

Just because McDonalds Corporation isn't going to be attacking the 12-seat burger joint doesn't mean that a specific franchise owner down the street won't be in competition with them. I've seen this happen IRL quite a bit. People forget that PC GMH merchants are ICly one of dozens in their city-state. So yes, while Kadius as a whole won't be worried about Amos the tailor, a specific Kadian merchant might want to deal with him when he starts stealing customers.

[Gimfalisette]

That might be accurate IF the PC...

-worked every day of that month. On many jobs, you can't always work them/get paid the full 50 sid per day. Either it's storming too bad, there are too many wicked things in the way, the clay/mines/whatever just aren't producing that well for you that day. These things fluctuate.
-played every day of that month. Most of us don't. We have to log off occasionally to deal with real lives.
-don't spend any time doing anything else except working during every day of that month.

While some people do the last, those of us who spend time in roleplay with other people would just like to be able to make a few sid and get by, without threads like this convincing staff that sid should be harder to make.

Not every character is hireable by a clan.

And if someone wouldn't mind, I'd love a link to what some staffer/helper said about how much the average commoner makes.

You might try running the numbers. I did, and it's enlightening! But before I show you the numbers, I'll say: I haven't been able to find the thread where staff discussed what VNPC commoner grebber salaries are, though I've searched extensively for it. However, I know it's been discussed, and I know that Ghost and I are in the right ballpark on it. That being said, here, have a post by Vanth on what the salaries are for clanned PCs. You will note there that average salaries for clanned PCs of ALL levels are much, much less than the amount that we all agree can be made by grebbing. It's factual. The average noble or templar is making 1500 every TWO RL WEEKS.

Now, compare to the numbers for indie grebbers, in city and out. This takes some explanation, but it's clear, if you follow along.

The constants for these calculations are based are based on RL week and RL hour. I'm not calculating anything in relationship to game time, because players play for chunks of real time, not game days. Also, these numbers are general and based on Tuluk; but the constants could be changed easily to perform calculations based on Allanak, instead.

Frequency of need to codedly eat in the city - 4 hours
Frequency of need to codedly drink in the city - 8 hours
Frequency of need to codedly eat outdoors - 2 hours
Frequency of need to codedly drink outdoors - 1 hours
Food cost to fill up - 50 coins
Water cost to fill up - 60 coins
Stabling cost - 20 coins
City grebbing salary per hour (clay digging) - 50 coins
Outdoors grebbing salary per hour (lumberjacking or 'sid mining or salt mining) - 200 coins
Regular player playtime per day - 4 hours
Casual player playtime per day - 1 hours

All PCs have the fixed cost of weekly rent @ 250 coins for the most crappy apartment.

Variable costs include food, water, and stabling; the calculation of variable costs is based on number of hours of playtime, and whether those hours of playtime are spent in the city, or outdoors.

Regular Player, Outdoors
-- Per Week Costs: 250 rent, 700 food, 1680 water, 280 stabling
-- Actual Weekly Salary: 5600
-- Weekly Profit: 2690

Regular Player, City
-- Per Week Costs: 250 rent, 350 food, 210 water, 0 stabling
-- Actual Weekly Salary: 1400
-- Weekly Profit: 590

Casual Player, Outdoors
-- Per Week Costs: 250 rent, 175 food, 420 water, 140 stabling
-- Actual Weekly Salary: 1400
-- Weekly Profit: 415

Casual Player, City
-- Per Week Costs: 250 rent, 87.5 food, 52.5 water, 0 stabling
-- Actual Weekly Salary: 350
-- Weekly Profit: -40

From what I have experienced in the game, I feel my constants for these calculations are correct, but I'm interested to hear if other people seem to think different.

The above illustrates why it is so hard to get by as a casual player, and how indies are able to make so much more money than clanned PCs, as well. The economy is not balanced well.

[Qzzrbl]

But would a casual player really have so much stuff as to need an apartment?

[Gimfalisette]

In a 250-per-RL-week apartment, you're not going to actually be storing stuff. Heh. This is more calibrated for the "what players tend to think is the absolute basics of a successful PC." Even casual players like to have a crappy place to take their girl/boyfriend.

[Zoltan]

But would a casual player really have so much stuff as to need an apartment?

Need a place to casually mudsex.   Unless you use backrooms... or rooftops. *tugs collar*

[Gimfalisette]

Also, as you will see if you put the numbers into a spreadsheet and play with them yourself, it is not the fixed costs that are the ultimate determiner of PC profitability. Rather, it is the variable costs and wages. Even if you bump a "Regular Player, Outdoors" up to the most expensive apartment available--in the realm of 1500 per week--they are still making a profit of about 1400 per week. However, if you keep them in the 250 apartment and bump water fill-up to 150 instead, then you almost eliminate profit. (That is, assuming that my belief about water needs outdoors are correct--I am not an extremely experienced outdoor player, but it reflects how I seem to remember it.)

[KankWhisperer]

Travelling is too easy and not dangerous in the least. You can ride from Tuluk to various other locations as a merchant and likely never even get attacked. I think there needs to be more emphasis on robbers and raiders. Make one if not two coded raiding groups with background, rules, blah blah blah. Make those traders have to make friends or hire 'friends'. All these people running around with tons of coins? Let's make people who know that and want to take it from them!

[Salt Merchant]

what are you talking about?  zalanthas has 200+ days in a month, fifty coins a day would mean 10000+ coins a month when the average clanned is paid 300-500 around that much and you are saying it is not enough to live on?

No one is going to be able to support an active character on 300 to 500 'sid an in-game month if they have to pay for food and water.

Franky, the cost of food and water doesn't make sense relative to the pay characters receive.

Also frankly, I don't know where people are getting the notion of 10,000+ 'sid a month characters from. Unless they're in Tuluk or sitting in Red Storm spam-tailoring or have reached master-crafter status.

My grebbers have had to struggle just to save up a thousand coins to buy some armor, after the cost of water and food is deducted.

Even a competent merchant character I once played had difficulty raising coin because the shops were always full from crafters' output or out of coin when trying to trade. It took a lot of grinding to build up a bank account of 13,000 'sid with the aim of buying a small shop. At which point I was fed up and retired him.

Wouldn't it have been lovely for a templar to have come by and taxed him down to 500 'sid? After a RL month of effort? Isn't that just what he busted his butt for?

No thanks.

And if large bank account sums tend to sit inert and don't affect the game, why do people resent them so much? 1. No effect + not visible = no problem, so far as I can see.

[Gimfalisette]

No thanks.

Your entire argument is based on "I don't like it because I want to get to do what I want, without interference from the game world," rather than on actual analysis of the problems of the economy.

[Salt Merchant]

No thanks.

Your entire argument is based on "I don't like it because I want to get to do what I want, without interference from the game world," rather than on actual analysis of the problems of the economy.

This is a game, meant to be played for fun. Not an economic simulation.

As an economic simulation, it fails on too many levels to count. Let's not even try to go there.

[Gimfalisette]

No thanks.

Your entire argument is based on "I don't like it because I want to get to do what I want, without interference from the game world," rather than on actual analysis of the problems of the economy.

This is a game, meant to be played for fun. Not an economic simulation.

And your fun, rather than the fun of the playerbase as a whole, is the priority for you. We get that. I still call it twinking.

[Cutthroat]

And if large bank account sums tend to sit inert and don't affect the game, why do people resent them so much? 1. No effect + not visible = no problem, so far as I can see.

"Out of sight, out of mind" doesn't really work here, because people who don't affect the game are essentially a waste of space when it comes to major plots. They're not in a clan, they're not putting money towards clans or any authority, so they are a problem simply by stifling opportunities.

No one's going to take 12,500 of your 13,000 sid, and there's no point in using numbers in examples. But money does need to generally flow from rich people who are supposed to be poor, to poor people who are supposed to be rich, so the game can function the way it's really supposed to for the vast majority of players.

[LoD]

Based on some of the ideas surrounding the economy and the casual player, I made this suggestion in the Arm Reborn forum for Quit Work.

-LoD

[Salt Merchant]

And your fun, rather than the fun of the playerbase as a whole, is the priority for you. We get that. I still call it twinking.

My fun?

May I point out that it's you who is suggesting a change to the game? To suit your own opinion of how things should be? Or did you manage to poll the entire playerbase during our brief discussion here, to be speaking on their behalf?

Do you really believe that grebber X's invisible 10,000 'sid bank account is spoiling the game for everyone?

It can't be spoiling the game for you. You don't even play the game these days, by your own admission.