Economy

[staggerlee]

1. It wouldn't just appy to independents. Why should crafter Amos of House Kadius be ambitious and earn himself some coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket. Why should any character want to accept a large sum of coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket.

2. This is about motivation in the game. Bribes, pay, the big score, all become more or less meaningless. This source of motivation is already battered enough by not really being able to own any property in the game other than what one wears. Now take away bank accounts too? Characters might as well just relieve themselves on any piles of coin they find.

3. Carry the coin in your pack? Coin is heavy. And militia and templars have a habit of searching packs.

I'd imagine this is exactly the sort of problem that the lower class in a city like Alllanak would face. Can't trust the guards, can't trust the banks, can't afford to eat, and if you do get paid everyone is going to try to take it from you.

[FantasyWriter]

1. It wouldn't just appy to independents. Why should crafter Amos of House Kadius be ambitious and earn himself some coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket. Why should any character want to accept a large sum of coin, if it just goes into some templar's pocket.

2. This is about motivation in the game. Bribes, pay, the big score, all become more or less meaningless. This source of motivation is already battered enough by not really being able to own any property in the game other than what one wears. Now take away bank accounts too? Characters might as well just relieve themselves on any piles of coin they find.

3. Carry the coin in your pack? Coin is heavy. And militia and templars have a habit of searching packs.

1. Merchant Houses offer a certain amount of protection for their employees and are probably already offering a percentage of crafter Amos's earnings in bribe money to the powers that be.

2. If you are already bribing a templar, there is less change that he would be soliciting for them and your in-bank money would be much safe

3. Do you keep -all- your money on one place IRL?

[Salt Merchant]

I think this is a fine example of players being win-focused rather than story-focused.

Sometimes players might want to play a character that drags himself up from the dirt rather than a character that is just some trouble-making minor cog of an organization, wouldn't you agree? Especially if one chooses to play an independent merchant.

And even the face-in-the-dust characters will be demotivated when opportunities arise if a slap-down is automatic.

Greed and the pursuit of wealth are the most common motivators of human existence. I'd claim it's perfectly reasonable for them to be reflected in-game.

[Salt Merchant]

1. Merchant Houses offer a certain amount of protection for their employees and are probably already offering a percentage of crafter Amos's earnings in bribe money to the powers that be.

2. If you are already bribing a templar, there is less change that he would be soliciting for them and your in-bank money would be much safe

3. Do you keep -all- your money on one place IRL?

1. Maybe. Maybe not.

2. Give your coin voluntarily to the templar or have it taken away? Same thing in the end.

3. Sure, I'll squirrel it away in one of the oh-so-secure apartments we have in game. Might as well let the templar tax the inevitable thief than my character. Or wait, I'll go out and leave it in some cave. It'll be secure there, yes.  

And yes, IRL I do. In the bank. Do you bury money in your back yard or stuff it in your mattress?

[Gimfalisette]

Sometimes players might want to play a character that drags himself up from the dirt rather than a character that is just some trouble-making minor cog of an organization, wouldn't you agree? Especially if one chooses to play an independent merchant.

And even the face-in-the-dust characters will be demotivated when opportunities arise if a slap-down is automatic.

A PC can drag him- or herself up, sure; but not without attracting attention, and not without having to pay for the privilege of retaining a newly-elevated status. Playing an indie is not a get-out-of-consequences-free card.

[Lizzie]

Salt Merchant:

Gimfilasette and I agree. Therefore, you are wrong.

[Gimfalisette]

Salt Merchant:

Gimfilasette and I agree. Therefore, you are wrong.

Also, the world (real one) will be ending soon!

[Salt Merchant]

Sometimes players might want to play a character that drags himself up from the dirt rather than a character that is just some trouble-making minor cog of an organization, wouldn't you agree? Especially if one chooses to play an independent merchant.

And even the face-in-the-dust characters will be demotivated when opportunities arise if a slap-down is automatic.

A PC can drag him- or herself up, sure; but not without attracting attention, and not without having to pay for the privilege of retaining a newly-elevated status. Playing an indie is not a get-out-of-consequences-free card.

Steps like these remove the fun and point of playing an indie at all. If you're going to have to kiss ass, be subject to someone's whip and play politics regardless, you're not indie anymore.

Gimfilasette and I agree. Therefore, you are wrong.

(after a moment of speechlessness) I guess that settles it. 

[Gimfalisette]

Steps like these remove the fun and point of playing an indie at all. If you're going to have to kiss ass, be subject to someone's whip and play politics regardless, you're not indie anymore.

Perhaps you could explain to me your perspective on how it makes sense with the world for anyone living legally in a Zalanthan city to get to avoid ass-kissing, whipping, and politics. This is a serious question: Does that fit with the world, and if so, how?

[staggerlee]

Sometimes players might want to play a character that drags himself up from the dirt rather than a character that is just some trouble-making minor cog of an organization, wouldn't you agree? Especially if one chooses to play an independent merchant.

And even the face-in-the-dust characters will be demotivated when opportunities arise if a slap-down is automatic.

A PC can drag him- or herself up, sure; but not without attracting attention, and not without having to pay for the privilege of retaining a newly-elevated status. Playing an indie is not a get-out-of-consequences-free card.

Steps like these remove the fun and point of playing an indie at all. If you're going to have to kiss ass, be subject to someone's whip and play politics regardless, you're not indie anymore.

Gimfilasette and I agree. Therefore, you are wrong.

(after a moment of speechlessness) I guess that settles it.  

Isn't that what happens in a horrible world where the city's are ruled by cruel dictators and the poor starve in the streets?

EDIT: DAMN IT GIMF

[Gimfalisette]

EDIT: DAMN IT GIMF

(rofl!)

On the topic of wanting to avoid the ass-kissing, whipping, and politics that are attendant to city life: I totally can sympathize with that. I don't like to play a groveling low-life with every PC, either. However, when I want to opt out of the automatic minion status of playing a citizen commoner in a city, then I opt out of playing in a city. That's how it works.

[FantasyWriter]

Lizzie, Gimf, and I all three agree.
BE afraid, BE very, very afraid.

[Lizzie]

Seriously though Salt Merchant, it's just a simple matter of the food chain.

You got your half-elven rinthi non-(insert clan name here) member independent piece of shit good-for-nothing scum bag.  He's gonna be at the mercy of pretty much everyone. If everyone demands that he kiss their ass, then he can either pucker up, or die.

Then there's the elven non-clanner independent skinny thieving scum bag. He'll be at the mercy of everyone -except- the half-elven mentioned above, IF he leaves his section of the Rinth. Then there's the human on the -other- side of the rinth - they -would- be equal, except that elves have a built-in measure of distrust from everyone, including other elves. So the human would be only marginally higher on the food chain.

Then there's the independent somethingorother outside the rinth, who will be at the mercy of everyone outside the rinth who isn't employed by him. Then you've got your clannies, who are at the mercy of their superiors..and at the mercy of any clan of higher social or legal rank than their clan (such as a GMH Crafter, vs. a Noble). If a Noble says the GMH crafter stole from him, then the GMH crafter stole from him. Unless the GMH crafter's boss comes up with a damned good incentive for the Noble to forget about the accusation.

And even the noble has to answer to his senior..and the blue-robes have to answer to the Reds, who answer to the Blacks, who answer to Tek. And EVERYONE answers to Tek.

So your independent no-body unclanned trader, no matter how rich, is still nothing more than an independent nobody unclanned trader, and his sids don't mean shit if a noble says "You stole from me." Because that independent nobody unclanned trader has no one to speak on his behalf, except his bank account.

[Salt Merchant]

One of the things that attracts me to playing this sort of game is that the might of one's arm or the might of one's magick can give one significant influence in the world, at least potentially. A world in which individual power and skill matters.

It's different from our RL world. In RL, most individuals can't affect much of anything in the big picture, unless they play the blasted corporate game and manage to climb to the top of the heap of the other backstabbing, slimy bastards. (Or unless they're a truly brilliant scientist or inventor, which is the route I'm -trying- to take).

Yes, within the city states, indies are subject to templarate abuse as much as any unaffiliated commoner. But it's a non-specific abuse, and it's possible to "fly under the radar". Potentially one could build up enough coin to start an organization or commission a building to be made. Having templars examining financial statements (and of course, they'd -always- spot that rich PC, even when in a huge crowd dotted with rich NPCs) is a big step toward taking this (individual potential) away.

[Gimfalisette]

it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

[Salt Merchant]

it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Twinking in what way? There are something like 350 templars in Allanak. And 500,000 commoners. You don't believe it realistic that a commoner could go relatively unnoticed?

[Qzzrbl]

It's different from our RL world in which most individuals can't affect much of anything in the big picture, unless they play the blasted corporate game and manage to climb to the top of the heap of the other backstabbing, slimy bastards.

Since when?

[Gimfalisette]

it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Twinking in what way? There are something like 350 templars in Allanak. And 500,000 commoners. You don't believe it realistic that a commoner could go relatively unnoticed?

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

[Salt Merchant]

It's different from our RL world in which most individuals can't affect much of anything in the big picture, unless they play the blasted corporate game and manage to climb to the top of the heap of the other backstabbing, slimy bastards.

Since when?

Since the game's inception? Although I admit there's been a continual trend away from that, toward a "just a cog in the machine" sort of world. Taxing commoners that manage to get somewhere is another step toward that.

[Qzzrbl]

It's different from our RL world in which most individuals can't affect much of anything in the big picture, unless they play the blasted corporate game and manage to climb to the top of the heap of the other backstabbing, slimy bastards.

Since when?

Since the game's inception? Although I admit there's been a continual trend away from that, toward a "just a cog in the machine" sort of world. Taxing commoners that manage to get somewhere is another step toward that.

Wait, are you saying RL = can't do shit unless you play the corporate game/Arm = The opposite? (which is what I thought you meant)

Orrr the complete opposite of that?

Your wording threw me for a loop. 

[Salt Merchant]

it's possible to "fly under the radar".

It's only possible because you're relying on the absence of coded reinforcements to the role. You're actually ignoring the documentation about the world, thus, it's a form of twinking.

Twinking in what way? There are something like 350 templars in Allanak. And 500,000 commoners. You don't believe it realistic that a commoner could go relatively unnoticed?

A commoner who is amassing tens of thousands of coins, when the typical daily wage of a grebber should be in the range of fifty coins? No.

A PC is generally an exceptional individual. Your typical commoner couldn't the things a PC can do with his individual power (e.g. ride out into the wilderness and slay scrabs and tarantulas, or conjure up food or water).

The thing about heroically slaying tarantulas or making an oasis appear is that generally there's no templar around to see it.

[Salt Merchant]

Your wording threw me for a loop.  

Now I'm confused.

What I mean is that, definitely in RL, any path to having an impact of the world mostly (purely?) involves politics, force of personality and gift of the gab.

Adventure games (which is how Arm started out, with a veneer of RP) are about the individual or small groups and what they can accomplish through swords and sorcery.

The game has evolved toward "telling a story" but it still retains a strong component of an adventure game. I like the mix. I don't want to see it shift into purely Mr. Nothing Commoner's story and Mr. Bored Noble's story told in a thousand variations.

[Gimfalisette]

A PC is generally an exceptional individual. Your typical commoner couldn't the things a PC can do with his individual power (e.g. ride out into the wilderness and slay scrabs and tarantulas, or conjure up food or water).

So, go ahead and be exceptional. However, as I've already said, expect consequences--both good AND bad. There is always a price.

[KankWhisperer]

I'd like to see the staff giving the independents something to spend the coins on other than just items and bribes. Something to compete with each other would be nice. I think a small compound would be ideal.
START UP COSTS
   Have it cost a lot of coins to lease it for a year, sort of like a large apartment. And that's just for the property.  Then you -should- get some gate guards. You -might- want a stable hand. Each of these professions also cost an initial start up cost for hiring and -then - a maintenance fee every month or so.
Other perks like cooks, tabards, a cistern, patches cost more and so on as well as the maintenance. The compound basically gives you a guild like account that you can put it and the pcs, rent and other types of maintenance fees withdraw from the account every month.  The pcs can only rent so many npcs before they will overreach. If an npc doesn't get paid he quits. Then to get a replacement have to pay the startup fee again as penalty.

TWINK CITY?
   Sure. But anywhere can be, anyway. The draw on the account will keep coins down.  The owner of the clan will probably have to hire pcs to keep supplied and so on. The thing is that the account has to be paid.  The player died the rent don't get paid and it goes back on the market. Other independents will try and get the compound. They might frame the guy, kill the guy, make it so he can't get materials, murder his npcs, storm his compound. I think the possibilities are pretty interesting. People might get into the group and then rob him. Or a second in command murders him to take over the clan, assuming he can keep putting money into the account.
   What  about the merchant houses?  Let their pcs work actively against this compound. This is not a one man operation to ignore, this is -trouble- to be dealt with. People flagged in this clan can be barred from trading with the GMH npcs.  Conflict, the heart of role-play, ensues.  Just one per main city for rarity and competition. Sort of a flavor of the month kind of clan, The ones that rise and fall so soon.

[My 2 sids]

Like mentioned, there is no IC reason for a GMH to feel threatened by indie PCs (Don't see McD's attacking the 12-seat burger joint down the street).  However, I do think the Templararate may want to take notice if someone is sitting on 10k coin.  Reason being, why do they have that coin?  Sounds suspicious.   And by OOC standards, well maybe that player should be given a nudge to actually -do- something with that coin.

As for the bank... The Templars and Nobility are always trying to find that balance which keeps the general population juuuust shy of rising up and killing them all.  Nenyuk's commitment to commoners (as far as accuracy) helps keep the common population just content enough with their lives.  Further, there are still scribes and accounting isn't necessarily the same as literacy. 

Finally, I don't think it's at all about PCs feeling like they can do better than GMHs -- I think rather PCs not being good enough to secure employment with GMH.  I like how many of the clans are set up currently -- with a probation period providing room and board (some players forget just how wonderful this alone would be in game!) and then having the PC have to proove their worth to the house (I think a lot more PCs should be fired, but that's just me)