Economy

[Melody]

I am doing away with quotes. I am quite bad at those.

- My fear is that templars get bored. Bring up the list. Contact people one by one.

- Most templars don't have complete control over the life of my PC. Not when they do not know my PC exist. Having the List might change it. I am sure many people know how to avoid templars. If all goes to moot, play a tribal.

- There are 2- 4 templars in the game. From experience, most characters in noble/templar roles can get bored easily. Since their plots consist mainly of catch this guy. Fetch that food. Find this merchant. Get that recruit. I really do fear harassment.

- It is not a matter of sids. When I have so much sids, I randomly give out sids and invest in others on a regular basis. I dealt with high politics, it is fun rp. But sometimes I really do enjoy no politics roles. When you earn 1000 sids a irl month, after half a year, no one is going to believe you only have 9k in the bank. Even if the templar can only see 9k in the bank. They will assume you are hoarding wealth. If you are not hoarding wealth, well, tough, you are now templar's sid farm. Start making sids! You are obviously capable of it, you just are too lazy to do it! Congratulations. What about you don't want to rp with me? Too late! Tag.


.....

The bottom line: why give templars more powers? If they are good templars, or even average, moderately suited for their role, they really do not need this feature. Independent PCs will flock to them of their own will and donate sids like it is so much sands. I have seen this.

If they are sucky templars. Then please, no. Get the fuck away from me. I will go on break for another 6 months and come back when the templar has stored. If the templar is not stored, I can go away for another 6 months.

I guess I feel very strongly about this issue. Privacy!

[Rhyden]

Templars can dig into existing organization bank accounts already. But to do it on an individual basis is another matter.

Really? I don't think so. It seems that both sides of the fence on this will agree that the economy is related to Templars. If the hypothetical indy merchant did have ten large in their bank account per say, they would be foolish -not- to bribe off Templars/soldiers/anyone with power. However, I don't really think Templars should have the power to check in on bank accounts. Maybe if there was a Nenyuki PC around...

- OOC Trust and Templars. This is an ooc problem I have. This opinion is solely of my own and in no way reflect the playerbase in general or staffs' judgments. Now. I don't trust templars' players. We all know the standard for sponsored role. So there is a very real possibility that the templar I might be dealing with had read the documentation without any real understanding. After too much unpleasant encounters, I try my damnest to avoid people who do unrealistic things with no regard for consequences. (e.g. Hi noble, sure I will go kill the bard over there who might have insulted your aide for you. So what if he is the lover of Lord Oash and patroned by the Lady Valika, he is just a commoner, I am a templar!)

Plots span off trust between players, and if what's been said in this thread is true, plots are also created by sid. Who gets the sid? Usually nobles, wealthy GMHers, and independents who have some means to expand their bank accounts. All the other players in the cities have to get their obsidian from one of these groups or one of the exception clans. As the obsidian sprinkles down the power tree into the Templar's pockets, the Bynner's, hunter's, commoner's, thieves, assassins and other useful occupations, plots are created.

I think most players aren't aware of how useful obsidian is. You have no idea how far a few small bribes can go. My motto? When in doubt, throw some sid at it.

[Melody]

Templars can dig into existing organization bank accounts already. But to do it on an individual basis is another matter.

Really? I don't think so. It seems that both sides of the fence on this will agree that the economy is related to Templars. If the hypothetical indy merchant did have ten large in their bank account per say, they would be foolish -not- to bribe off Templars/soldiers/anyone with power. However, I don't really think Templars should have the power to check in on bank accounts. Maybe if there was a Nenyuki PC around...

- OOC Trust and Templars. This is an ooc problem I have. This opinion is solely of my own and in no way reflect the playerbase in general or staffs' judgments. Now. I don't trust templars' players. We all know the standard for sponsored role. So there is a very real possibility that the templar I might be dealing with had read the documentation without any real understanding. After too much unpleasant encounters, I try my damnest to avoid people who do unrealistic things with no regard for consequences. (e.g. Hi noble, sure I will go kill the bard over there who might have insulted your aide for you. So what if he is the lover of Lord Oash and patroned by the Lady Valika, he is just a commoner, I am a templar!)

Plots span off trust between players, and if what's been said in this thread is true, plots are also created by sid. Who gets the sid? Usually nobles, wealthy GMHers, and independents who have some means to expand their bank accounts. All the other players in the cities have to get their obsidian from one of these groups or one of the exception clans. As the obsidian sprinkles down the power tree into the Templar's pockets, the Bynner's, hunter's, commoner's, thieves, assassins and other useful occupations, plots are created.

I think most players aren't aware of how useful obsidian is. You have no idea how far a few small bribes can go. My motto? When in doubt, throw some sid at it.

No really. If you want to do fancy stuffs, rp it out and check with staffs. Staffs are usually fanastic with giving you assistance that are realistic to your situation. I won't bring up specific examples in case of ic restrictions.

Sids do not always start plots. The plots that are started by plots are... unless you refer to those 10k+ bigger plots. Sids are only important when you are new. After a certain stage, the currency of the game is no longer sids. Sids do not get you everything. You can pay 20k to kill someone, guess what? The crimelord will not do it for you. (Yup it happened before) You can pay 15k bounty on someone, but guess what noble? No one will pick it up. Actually, they will take your sids like you are a sucker and not do it.

Most players have no idea how suck it is to use sids to bribe. In the Tuluki language, it is so unsophisticated.

But I derail. I simply do not agree on using this method to create rp. I respect LoD and Rhyden and others' arguments. I agree with these points. I, however, do not think the pro is worth the con. It will automatically undermine my trust in the templar's player and lower my expectation for said templar. If a templar needs to stoop to such coded methods in order to find which inddie to get bribes from and get things done, he is hardly going to be impressive.

If you want to find out who is rich, no automatic bank statement checking. Go hire a competent spy or three and let them investigate. Invest 500 in a good spy and you might get a return of 2000 in bribes. Good business.

Edit: Just bolded stuffs so Gim can read it better. I never said bribe is bad. Nor did I said giving templar power is bad. But there is a better method. I also don't know where Gim has been playing. Bribes come and go so often. Even a drink at the bar is a small bribe for the militia. My personal record is 5k in one day sitting at the tavern for my templar. I had so much free time then. The best bribes are not sids. Give them what they want, like, need or achieve.

[Gimfalisette]

Most players have no idea how suck it is to use sids to bribe. In the Tuluki language, it is so unsophisticated.

This is completely untrue. The docs say bribery is the way of getting business done, in both cities; and having played politics in both cities, I've never seen a bribe go unappreciated. There are ways of bribing that would be seen as unsophisticated, but the bribe itself? Never.

Sadly, despite playing extensively in political and military roles and having plenty of power and status, I think I was only ever freely bribed like once or twice.

[Little_Cacophony]

Edit: NM.

[Myrdryn]

Bribing Templars in Tuluk is a little different.  Also calling it a donation instead ofa  bribe is probably best.  You're still giving them money, and they're still getting the money.  However what your money buys you is up to the templar, but that's always the case.

[jstorrie]

It also adds another layer of benefit/protection PC's would enjoy in the employ of a Great Merchant House.  If being in Kadius, Kurac, or Salarr bought you a hefty degree of immunity from such approaches, it might better reflect the social disadvantages and vulnerabilities an independent would probably feel operating amidst the "big boys".

IF being the operative word. My general experience with house merchant PCs is that every time I run into a templar, I get a "I want these six custom items within one week and for every late day I will torture one of your employees to death" speech. My experience has always been that nobles and templars don't give a fuck about merchant house status, and merchant house staffers will generally not do anything to discourage this behavior. And yeah, it always ends up being about custom items, which makes it incredibly infuriating. Go ahead, Lord Hardnose! Fuck up my clan because I have no way of getting around the OOC custom-item rules!

[Nyr]

It also adds another layer of benefit/protection PC's would enjoy in the employ of a Great Merchant House.  If being in Kadius, Kurac, or Salarr bought you a hefty degree of immunity from such approaches, it might better reflect the social disadvantages and vulnerabilities an independent would probably feel operating amidst the "big boys".

IF being the operative word. My general experience with house merchant PCs is that every time I run into a templar, I get a "I want these six custom items within one week and for every late day I will torture one of your employees to death" speech. My experience has always been that nobles and templars don't give a fuck about merchant house status, and merchant house staffers will generally not do anything to discourage this behavior. And yeah, it always ends up being about custom items, which makes it incredibly infuriating. Go ahead, Lord Hardnose! Fuck up my clan because I have no way of getting around the OOC custom-item rules!

The only solution is to kill all of your employees to leave them no one to torture.

[a strange shadow]

I suspect that was a tongue-in-cheek answer, but regardless, I wouldn't consider that option as conducive to continued good business.

[Dar]

This is completely untrue. The docs say bribery is the way of getting business done, in both cities; and having played politics in both cities, I've never seen a bribe go unappreciated. There are ways of bribing that would be seen as unsophisticated, but the bribe itself? Never.

I gotta tell you though. It is very common for coin bribe to go unappreciated. At a particular moment it is a sign of respect, which is fine and dandy. But as the Templar matures and begins to accumilate bribe money, they begin to require it less and less. Up until a moment, when telling a good joke is or a 200 sid teapot is more useful then a 5k bribe. All this talk about Templars seeing the bank accounts and stuff. Meh. If a Templar 'wanted' to, he can find anyone's account by talking to a Nenyak's clerk via staff animation. Leave at that.

What exactly is a problem with people who amassed great wealth in their bank accounts ? I mean, they are doing it for 'some' reason, right? There 'are' open to some kind of plots, the odds are high that you simply do not 'know' what plots are they.

There are enough sdesc/name sniffing going on, I would prefer not to instill any kind of extra code that allows more of the same kind. If a PC is notable and known enough and a templar took interest, they might check him out. But that will probably involve 'bribing' the clerk themselves. Clerk says to Lord Templar "Oh yes, we have the records, it will take us some time to dig them up. Come back in a ... month or ...ten".

[Greve]

.

[jstorrie]

The only solution is to kill all of your employees to leave them no one to torture.

You know how I roll, homie.

[jstorrie]

- Lack of PC-driven economy. Crafting seems to be at an all time low as there is no need for it unless you can or wish to create something that players cannot get elsewhere. The fact that the best equipment is obtained exclusively by having an admin load it up in a merchant house's storage, rather than seeking out someone who can craft, only adds to this problem.

The Akai Sjir called. They want to sell you some awesome granite warhammers and stone-plated waterpacks.

[Clearsighted]

Clearly, the only solution is to make joining the T'zai Byn mandatory for all indies.

That's true poverty.

[Gimfalisette]

Greve's points about what the ease of grinding coin does to the economy in general are well-articulated.

If I was going to redesign the economy, I think I would make it so that grindy ways of making money would only ever equate to basic survival; and that the real money would flow from non-grindy, unique opportunities to make money. It would seem fitting to me that our "PCs who are the exceptions in the VNPC world" should, if they want to amass coin, have to make those coins in exceptional ways.

What would non-grindy, unique opportunities to make money look like?

-- True master crafting of high-level items and custom orders. I think part of the reason we don't see a lot of PCs going for mastercrafting status is because in order to be balanced with the economy, a custom item would have to cost the ordering PC around $20k to make sense. Only indies can afford a $20k custom item right now. Master crafters right now can make far more money from "craft silk into silk thingy" than they can from catering to orders. And actually playing a crafter PC in a GMH is often boring as hell.

-- Entertainment event production. If you create fun for PCs, you make good money. (Currently event production is done for free or even at cost to the organizers, for the most part--probably why it's not done as frequently as it could be, especially in Allanak.) Maybe part of your pay comes from PCs and part of it comes from VNPCs (since if you cut off the flow of grind money, money actually has to come into the game from somewhere).

-- Quests given by PCs from organizations or maybe even from NPCs to Acquire Legendary Item; maybe that's a particular animal pelt, or a very rare (but findable) gem, or a tamed rare animal, or an item with historical value, or a book, etc. Right now, this kind of quest is the purview of organizations; but if indies want to make the coins and take the risk, maybe they should be the ones organizing and going instead.

-- Quests given by PCs from organizations or even from NPCs to Do Legendary Thing; such as lead an army to defeat X, or explore all of a region and map it, or find a special place. Perhaps if there are costs incurred along the way, the sponsor pays them, but then the indie/employee gets a huge bonus at the end.

Those are just some ideas for what switching the economic emphasis toward the non-grindy would look like.

[Clearsighted]

Greve's points about what the ease of grinding coin does to the economy in general are well-articulated.

If I was going to redesign the economy, I think I would make it so that grindy ways of making money would only ever equate to basic survival; and that the real money would flow from non-grindy, unique opportunities to make money. It would seem fitting to me that our "PCs who are the exceptions in the VNPC world" should, if they want to amass coin, have to make those coins in exceptional ways.

What would non-grindy, unique opportunities to make money look like?

-- True master crafting of high-level items and custom orders. I think part of the reason we don't see a lot of PCs going for mastercrafting status is because in order to be balanced with the economy, a custom item would have to cost the ordering PC around $20k to make sense. Only indies can afford a $20k custom item right now. Master crafters right now can make far more money from "craft silk into silk thingy" than they can from catering to orders. And actually playing a crafter PC in a GMH is often boring as hell.

-- Entertainment event production. If you create fun for PCs, you make good money. (Currently event production is done for free or even at cost to the organizers, for the most part--probably why it's not done as frequently as it could be, especially in Allanak.) Maybe part of your pay comes from PCs and part of it comes from VNPCs (since if you cut off the flow of grind money, money actually has to come into the game from somewhere).

-- Quests given by PCs from organizations or maybe even from NPCs to Acquire Legendary Item; maybe that's a particular animal pelt, or a very rare (but findable) gem, or a tamed rare animal, or an item with historical value, or a book, etc. Right now, this kind of quest is the purview of organizations; but if indies want to make the coins and take the risk, maybe they should be the ones organizing and going instead.

-- Quests given by PCs from organizations or even from NPCs to Do Legendary Thing; such as lead an army to defeat X, or explore all of a region and map it, or find a special place. Perhaps if there are costs incurred along the way, the sponsor pays them, but then the indie/employee gets a huge bonus at the end.

Those are just some ideas for what switching the economic emphasis toward the non-grindy would look like.

I think that being able to mine a deposit of obsidian, then kill and skin an insect bigger than you are, by yourself in the same day, is a lot more exceptional in the Zalanthan environment, then putting on some kind of entertainment service like dancing or singing...

And considering the number of PCs that have been allowed to do 'Legendary' things (like what you list in your last two examples) in the last 4-5 years...I think that's a pretty damn unrealistic barometer. Lead an army? Explore a new region? Having the opportunity to do that is a rare privilege, not something to shoot for as an obsidian making venture.

Your other two examples are craft-whoring and bard-whoring, which is perhaps unsurprising. I think I prefer scrab-whoring. A lot more people die scrab-whoring, and assume actual real risk, (and feel free to replace with 'scrab' with your local favorite flora or fauna), then tavern-sitting. It's way easier to make sids craft-whoring and bard-whoring already, if you find a patron that can withstand emoted singing.

And I think generally, the people that are getting richest, aren't the indies. They /are/ part of the noble houses or GMHs, and making use of all that free food, water and storage, not to mention other advantages, to build upon.

It's comparatively the rare indie, and the even rarer indie hunter that manages to accumulate truly ridiculous sums without eventually winning the Grey Hunt or dying. And if they win the Grey Hunt, they'll store sooner than later anyways.

[Gimfalisette]

It's comparatively the rare indie, and the even rarer indie hunter that manages to accumulate truly ridiculous sums without eventually winning the Grey Hunt or dying. And if they win the Grey Hunt, they'll store sooner than later anyways.

I think that if everyone knew just how many independents got rich and couldn't do anything with all those riches because they are just independents, you'd be surprised.  Imagine being able to look at everyone and see their bank balance (or how much coins they had tucked away), I think everyone would be surprised just how many people horde coins and feign poverty, and just how poor the 'power players' (merchants/templars/nobles) really are.

I'm more inclined to believe Myrdryn's assessment of the issue since he's, like, in a position to actually know what he's talking about.

Also, your characterization of some aspects of the game as "bard-whoring" and "craft-whoring" are ridiculous, as well as unhelpful to the discussion. Because it appears you missed it, I am in favor of taking out or vastly reducing all the grindy ways of making coins--hunting, mining, foraging, AND crafting. It's not about whether I or anyone else likes certain of those activities more than others of them; it's about the fact that those activities currently have a hugely skewing effect on the economy.

[Dar]

I ... understand many of the Greve's points.


How about this. Different types of coin.

Obsidian coins that are rough and chipped is what most shopkeepers pay out to grebbers. They can buy low to medium quality goods, food, drinks, and such similar things. Enough to keep you well fed and in reasonable state.


Refined obsidian coin. Crafted specifically by Nenyak under supervision of the Templarate, their outlet is mostly the Templarate and Noble houses (given in stipends). With Merchant Houses having a smaller income, mainly due to trades with those very Highborn. The clan pay can come in a portion of that and a portion of this. The high quality goods and pretty much anything that is the best and rare, or just above average is traded primarily in 'those' types of coins.

Indies and criminal organizations can figure out their 'own' way of procuring the refined ones. From trading 20 to 1, to ... well  ... whatever, they're an ingenius bunch they'll figure it out.

[a strange shadow]

I think the moral of the story is that we all enjoy the game for different reasons, and trying to shoehorn the rest of the populace into one set of reasons is a lost cause. It has a little something for every play style out there, and I like it that way.

Could things be improved? Sure. Do we need a radical change or to do away with independent sources of income? Nah.

[flurry]

It's way easier to make sids craft-whoring and bard-whoring already, if you find a patron that can withstand emoted singing.

It's easier to make sids as a bard than as a grebber/hunter? You must be joking.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Dar, that was actually awfully clever. This could be the first suggestion I have ever seen that even sounds right.

[Clearsighted]

It's comparatively the rare indie, and the even rarer indie hunter that manages to accumulate truly ridiculous sums without eventually winning the Grey Hunt or dying. And if they win the Grey Hunt, they'll store sooner than later anyways.

I think that if everyone knew just how many independents got rich and couldn't do anything with all those riches because they are just independents, you'd be surprised.  Imagine being able to look at everyone and see their bank balance (or how much coins they had tucked away), I think everyone would be surprised just how many people horde coins and feign poverty, and just how poor the 'power players' (merchants/templars/nobles) really are.

I'm more inclined to believe Myrdryn's assessment of the issue since he's, like, in a position to actually know what he's talking about.

Also, your characterization of some aspects of the game as "bard-whoring" and "craft-whoring" are ridiculous, as well as unhelpful to the discussion. Because it appears you missed it, I am in favor of taking out or vastly reducing all the grindy ways of making coins--hunting, mining, foraging, AND crafting. It's not about whether I or anyone else likes certain of those activities more than others of them; it's about the fact that those activities currently have a hugely skewing effect on the economy.

No coins from hunting, mining, foraging or crafting? The only people that get rich are those which somehow manage to be showered with the privilege of leading armies or exploring new areas?  No doubt, those who first proved their rping chops by being exceptional emoters of singing and dancing, which is the other example of an 'acceptable' way to earn sids.

So playing a bard is the prime moneymaking venture in the Gimfageddon universe...but going out and bringing down a creature twice your size, then skin it, and maybe, fashion the hides or bones into some useful piece of equipment and sell it...should be reduced to subsistence existence. Because living by the sword outside the city walls is just a bunch of twinky, economy skewing crap, right?

Yeah. And my opinion is unhelpful...

In any case, those indies that do manage to survive and thrive, do tend to come to staff's attention. But a great many just go through, do the best they can, and die. I doubt it was Myrdryn's intent to suggest that half of all the dusty hunters you see are amassing vast sums, doing all that twinky hunting, skinning and foraging. Anyhow, I don't need any staffer's offhanded comment to validate my own thoughts on the matter, since I've played long enough to see just how often non-noble/templar/GMH affiliated indie hunters actually come around or last.

[Gimfalisette]

I actually think Dar's idea is really interesting, too. Make all the basics of the game--basic food, water, armor, weapons, mounts, rentals--procurable by "common coin." Make anything and everything above that level, including rentals, expensive stuff at the shops, all ordered-from-merchant-PC stuff--procurable only by "king's coin." Grebbers could greb unlimitedly and it wouldn't affect the upper-tier economy at all; if they wanted to play in the upper-tier economy, they'd actually have to participate in it by non-grebbing means.

[Clearsighted]

It's way easier to make sids craft-whoring and bard-whoring already, if you find a patron that can withstand emoted singing.

It's easier to make sids as a bard than as a grebber/hunter? You must be joking.

Depends if you find a patron or not. But I've seen many people more or less come out of chargen and segue into extremely comfortable, tavern-sitting roles, just by crossing paths with a noble or GMH head. And that bard pc will probably survive and thrive just fine until they die.

Perhaps it's not way easier, but the risk/threat factor must be taken into account. Point is...It's a sure thing, unless your city-stage is going through a severe drought of flunky-wanting patrons.

[flurry]

And I couldn't agree more with Greve's reasons why unrealistic sid hoarding is a problem. I can recall a few situations where grebbers put themselves so far beyond being bribed it was genuinely ridiculous.

To me, it undermines the whole idea of the theme of struggling for resources when members of the laboring class are spending thousands of coins every time they turn around, and still having plenty to spare.