Too direct about sex? (please read before voting)

[DustMight]

It strikes me that according to the docs (my understanding) is that Allanak is very conservative and open sexual talk should be avoided at least in public.  But then, naki's don't dress or wear weapons like the docs either (for the most part).

[musashi]

I always assumed that given the poverty level of the average Nakki, the docs about clothing and weapon choice were aimed at the noble houses more than the average amos.

They probably wear whatever they can find/make/steal.

[DustMight]

I recently played a crazy PC who raped other PCs and NPCs, regularly talked about it, threatened people with rape, and in general made people uncomfortable.

I was under the impression that I did a pretty good job with it, though. To my knowledge no player complaints were filed. All the uncomfortable-ness to avoid him was done IC--and I always faded.

FYI - my wife (3 days now, whoo!) reported someone at work who was inappropriate - that person got fired (not the plan of my wife) but it turns out he had upset a whole bunch of other people, none who reported it until someone finally did.  So - to say no complaints were filed is not saying much.  Lots of people just try to pretend it didn't happen and the offender (not saying you did offend anyone - only that you likely will never know) will like go on offending if someone doesn't step up about it.  

Bottom line - you never know if the pc you are playing with is played by a woman who was raped.  And having known, very well, many women who have been, it's far more common than you think.  Rape has no place in the game, IMO.

(Many women:  my mother, another relation, two girl friends and another woman.)

.02

[musashi]

Well, don't the rules for consent cover that pretty well? They spell it out clearly that before even bringing rape into the picture as a possible plot-line, you have to have ooc consent from the other player involved. No consent ... then your PC can't rape that other PC IG, FTB or not.

So people that don't want rape to have any place in their character's story, don't have to. It isn't like torture, where it will happen whether you want it to happen to your PC or not, you just get to pick if it happens on or off camera.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't really have a problem with it IG.

Sure, some of my characters (a select few) have, but I don't.

IC is IC. OOC is OOC.

It's not an insult, it's Zalanthas. People get propositioned. They also get backstabbed and stolen from and killed and poisoned. A lot. But, you know what? It's not like RL where those things would bother me.

[DustMight]

Well, don't the rules for consent cover that pretty well? They spell it out clearly that before even bringing rape into the picture as a possible plot-line, you have to have ooc consent from the other player involved. No consent ... then your PC can't rape that other PC IG, FTB or not.

So people that don't want rape to have any place in their character's story, don't have to. It isn't like torture, where it will happen whether you want it to happen to your PC or not, you just get to pick if it happens on or off camera.

I wonder if the player who posted that one of his characters regularly talked of rape checked with everyone within hearing distance if it was ok to bring rape in as a plot line?

I know that if one of the women I know in RL who has been raped had heard the conversation she would have a very different impression of the game. 

This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

[musashi]

I don't mean to come off as defending "rape" as an acceptable hobby or thing to bring up over coffee, but the helpfiles are very clear (at least to me) on that. They say: Specifically in the case of roleplaying through a rape or sexual torture, the instigator takes on added responsibility.

Roleplaying through ... not talking about. So I don't believe said player would /have/ to ask for OOC consent before simply talking about it, only when actually trying to RP through comitting the act.

Is it tasteful ... well, no. But I don't think the player was in the wrong at all based on what he said; if we're usng the game's consent rules as a guide.

[deviant storm]

I don't have a problem with this. At all. I've played all manner of roles, since coming back to the game. The one and only time anyone ever made me uncomfortable was because someone followed me into a latrine to proposition me. That was just....odd.

I expect people of Allanak at least to be direct and up front about sex. I don't recall being very often treated as a whore, though one or two people did offer. But I've played a lot of tough girls and once word gets out she isn't going to take a few sid to go somewhere and do things, they stop asking.

I've played a guy recently. He's had a few overtures, though they've been subtle. And I think they're for other reasons than his being male. So far he's only gone to vNPCs who he knows he can trust. I should think people would remember that trust is a major issue when it comes to sex. You're icly putting yourself in a vulnerable place, male or female. I don't think this is remembered enough.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I agree with X-D on the "who gives a shit?" front.

Most players, as we've shown thus far here, are very lax about what happens. Some FTB, some want to cyber. Some could give a shit if you rape their PCs. If you're gonna emote being sexual, ask for consent, or ask for a fade. If you're uncomfortable with a discussion being had, ask the players to tone it down, OR LEAVE! (This is my opinion of the smoking bans IRL too. Even though I've been smoking since I was 14 and just quit 8 months ago, I still hang around with smokers. IF you're in my car and it's bothering me, I tell to roll down the window or quit. If we're standing around and 6 people are smoking, versus me not, I can walk away if it begins to bug me.)

If you're in a bar with 10 PCs, and 2 of them are talking rape, I think you need to raise a consensus "I'm sorry, this bothers me. Does this bother anyone else?" If it does, ask those two to get a table or something. If you're alone on this one, then you need to be a big boy/girl and go look for dead newbs for a while until they change subject or leave.

As far as most players being pretty lax, I once witnessed a whore give a Bynner a BJ in the middle of a crowded bar with like 6 PCs in it. She did it right. She OOC'd "I need consent here. Does anyone mind? I'll keep it vague." No one minded, every PC gave consent to witness, and she did an exceptional job of keeping it PG-13, emoting more to the effect of where she was kneeling, and how her head was moving, rather than what her tongue and hands were doing, etc.  Kudos.

[Eyeball]

I agree with X-D on the "who gives a shit?" front.

Me. It actually started to bother me personally a few months ago to see the handful of female characters in the Byn more or less continually being the recepients of sexually suggestive comments, invitations, remarks about behaviour and so on. It was totally one-sided; the female characters weren't giving it back to the male characters.

I've been seeing it in the Gaj more and more, too. This is something new to Arm. Public blowjobs, naked invitations to sex in front of a crowd and so on.

My concern is that I'd hate to see female players driven out of clans (and maybe out of the game) by it. Thus the poll. I'm glad that most seem okay with it, although you could argue its because the less thick-skinned ones have already left.

[Lizzie]

There's a HUGE difference between this sentiment:

I expect people of Allanak at least to be direct and up front about sex.

and this sentiment:

There seems to be a growing trend (at least in the south) to treat every female character as a potential whore.

I object to the obsession with sex as some kind of normal thing that people should expect to see among the general populace. The existence of sex doesn't bother me at all. The fact that Zalanthans include sex among their interests doesn't bother me at all. The trend for people to -focus- on sexual activity is what I feel Eyeball is talking about, and what I agree is something that needs to be addressed. That it -seems- to be a trend, this focus on sex, the focus on objectifying females...the focus on females behaving as sexual objects rather than multi-dimensional people whose interests -include- sex, rather than -exclude- anything other than sex.

I don't think anyone gives a damn that characters in Zalanthas have sex and will talk about it or proposition each other with it. I think some people DO give a damn that the "obsession with sex" seems to be a trend. Not that having sex or talking about it is a trend, but that the obsession is a trend.

[Is Friday]

I find my female PCs get hit on no matter what they look like.  Sometimes it feels like people lose interest in them quickly when they find out that I'd rather FTB than roleplay out sex.   

I find my male PCs get hit on no matter what they look like.

[Pale Horse]

Edited, as it didn't come across as I thought it might.

[DustMight]

btw - roleplaying about sex, rape and torture includes talking about it because you are roleplaying everytime you have your character do anything - so if you are going to have roleplay that includes sex, rape and torture, you had better ask for permission from everyone who can hear you (within reason, obviously if you can't see a hidden person, you can't ask their consent.).

[Lizzie]

Well now my post is irrelevant and is in response to a post that no longer exists, so..never mind

[Rhyden]

I object to the obsession with sex as some kind of normal thing that people should expect to see among the general populace. The existence of sex doesn't bother me at all. The fact that Zalanthans include sex among their interests doesn't bother me at all. The trend for people to -focus- on sexual activity is what I feel Eyeball is talking about, and what I agree is something that needs to be addressed. That it -seems- to be a trend, this focus on sex, the focus on objectifying females...the focus on females behaving as sexual objects rather than multi-dimensional people whose interests -include- sex, rather than -exclude- anything other than sex.

I gotta agree with Lizzie. Even things like "dame, broad, and bitch" seem a bit weird for Zalanthas.

I call women - women and I do my absolute best to treat every female the exact same I would treat any male. Hell, I haven't even had a sexually active character in years. I don't play Arm for that.

Probably the most offsetting situation was a few months back when I was telling an underling (kinda think it was an animated NPC) to do some cooking work. He said no, that's women's work.  I played it off as them having something wrong with their head. Suffice to say, that character died pretty quickly after.

Bottom line? Watch what you say/do because as we all know on the internet, just one word can have a significantly different meaning than your intention.

[Twilight]

How often do males think about sex in real life?  What happens in essential lawless areas in times of upheaval and the loss of central authority?  Ever read stories about the child war soldier's in Africa?  Maybe its just me, but I see rape especially happening much less often than I would expect to see it, given RL as a baseline.  See a girl out alone in the wastes and think you can overpower her?  Yeah.  Much, much less than I would expect to see it.

But that is okay.  Still, sex and rape can be used to give the world that really gritty feel.  I'll never forget a character I was with in the Gaj, talking about cutting open someone's throat and doing the act.  That character was awesome, the way the act was described was awesome, and it really brought home that grit.

[Pale Horse]

Edited to protect the innocent..alright, so not innocent, but it helps keep Lizzie from backstabbing my character in their sleep 

Lizzie, my post wasn't meant as anything other than an evidently poorly worded attempt at humor.  Obviously it failed.  I used that snippet of your post more as of a way to highlight that this feels like another thread worrying over a trend that a player has noticed IG, similar to many such I've seen that have turned into a "hate thread" (quote on quote), and to set up the rest of my post.  I apologize and will edit my post, since it seems to have offended where it was meant to amuse.

[Ourla]

There's only been one incident that I've ever seen that I thought sexual conversation had gone too far and sort of crossed into the realm of an oocish sexual harassment.

Sorry about that again, Maj.  But y'know, you didn't have to call me all those names and cry that much.

[MarshallDFX]

I recently played a crazy PC who raped other PCs and NPCs, regularly talked about it, threatened people with rape, and in general made people uncomfortable.

I was under the impression that I did a pretty good job with it, though. To my knowledge no player complaints were filed. All the uncomfortable-ness to avoid him was done IC--and I always faded.

Bottom line - you never know if the pc you are playing with is played by a woman who was raped.  And having known, very well, many women who have been, it's far more common than you think.  Rape has no place in the game, IMO.

But by the same reasoning, we could be playing with somebody who has gone through a murder IRL, too.  The help files say "any emote specifically indicative of the act of rape" requires consent.  I'm honestly not sure if this covers threats/general vileness of a character or not.  Staff?

[Is Friday]

This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I disagree completely. You just obviously have not been in the presence of a character that roleplays these things well.

[Lizzie]

Yeah actually I -have- been in scenes with characters, whose players managed to turn what -could've- been one of those really cheap crappy plastic blow-up-doll experiences, into very brief, exquisitely detailed, ELEGANTLY graphic, moments of hotness that made me want to order a spinach/garlic/pepperoni calzone and get jiggy in the basement with my cat.

So again - it's not that there's a problem with sex. It's when that's all you see. It get boring. And overdone. And unnecessary, and ultimately, OOCly distasteful.

[MarshallDFX]

moments of hotness that made me want to order a spinach/garlic/pepperoni calzone and get jiggy in the basement with my cat.

This GDB is bad for my brain.

[AmandaGreathouse]

With the player gender ratio, combined with the fact that there =are= so many male characters that are sexually forward, if your PC is even mildly attractive, there is rarely a chase that needs to go down. I don't think that there's anything, in particular, about sexuality IG that is skewed, I think it's a combination of the number of male vs. female pc's, as well as the number of male vs. female players, as well as the little parts of the psyche that often wind up being drug over from RL. Sure it's not ideal, but then at the same time, it would be just as bad depending on a lot of factors. And, personally, I've had a -good- share of my pc's chase after male pc's. The difference is, mine tend to use the Way to do it.

[Cutthroat]

So again - it's not that there's a problem with sex. It's when that's all you see. It get boring. And overdone. And unnecessary, and ultimately, OOCly distasteful.

That right there sums up my thoughts on sex in general in game.

As for rape, meh. As I said before, just follow the consent rules.