Assess -v

[number13]

If the "half-breed passing itself as human" story is common enough to inspire a debate over a change in the code, then that particular shtick is probably overused.

[spawnloser]

I stopped reading after the first page.  Solution:  Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.

[Armaddict]

Marauder Moe, I wasn't actually talking about someone hiding it from a clan or whatnot.  If they do that, then yes, they're asking for it.

I'm talking about average joe in the Byn, in House Kurac, in House Salarr, in even the Guild.  They aren't trying to get away with something, they're trying to fit in.  Which I've done in the past (but when I was a noob).  I don't play half-elves much.  When I do, I have 'half-elf' in the sdesc.  But I still looked at this particular issue and thought, 'Yeah...that does actually sound pretty messed up.'

I'm not a big fan of using code constantly, just because you've played the game awhile and know all the nuances and such that others may not, to try and 'get ahead' or to act as the 'decider' in everything.  Most people who think like that will never stumble on it by accident, get an 'oh' face, then decide they didn't notice it yet.  Altogether, the mood I got was that 'I got out it of a game command, now I know and you're fucked.  Try harder next time.' It makes the entire -mood- of the game to be competition for characters, like an MMO, rather than some respect and cooperation, like an RPG.

[Comrade Canadia]

I'm not a big fan of using code constantly, just because you've played the game awhile and know all the nuances and such that others may not, to try and 'get ahead' or to act as the 'decider' in everything.  Most people who think like that will never stumble on it by accident, get an 'oh' face, then decide they didn't notice it yet.  Altogether, the mood I got was that 'I got out it of a game command, now I know and you're fucked.  Try harder next time.' It makes the entire -mood- of the game to be competition for characters, like an MMO, rather than some respect and cooperation, like an RPG.

[FantasyWriter]

Solution:  Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.

[Synthesis]

Solution:  Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.

Aside from the obvious grammar issue there, I think you missed the part where Xygax said the command is currently working as intended.

[FantasyWriter]

The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason.  It's not OOC information.

-- X

Xygax,
So the code was written with the intent of given a coded way to obtain DEFINITIVE information to a character about another character that would be questionable IC and also discoverable IC?

Thanks,
FW

[Good Gortok]

(...) Regardless of these attributes, however, half-elves can virtually always pass for either humans or elves, and share the skin tones and hair-and-eye colors of both parents.

Why all the contradictions? Why the coded ability to dispel this racial trait? I can't see why it's necessary. Has there ever been a situation where this half-elven race-posing has been abused to the point where assess -v was needed? I have never seen any half-elf PC who tried to pass as a human or an elf for the purpose of doing something that would create interesting roleplay, and I'm sure this is exactly because any player who might want to do so also knows that the ruse will last until someone assesses him. I'm sure some have attempted and I'm sure someone will reply with a story about how he once knew a guy who totally pulled it off, but this is yet another of countless aspects of Armageddon where an entire element of roleplay is made practically unplayable because the code is an obstacle for no reason other than "that's just how it is." I will never understand why this is such a prominent tradition on this mud nor why players and staff tend to refuse any change that isn't completely inconsequential in every conceivable situation they can come up with. If the code didn't encourage questionable behaviour and OOC-playing at every turn, maybe this wouldn't be the RPI with the most twinks.

No, I don't want to spend my special application allowance and wait a month or more to play a character the way it's described in the god damn documentation. I just don't understand this mentality. This is not about wanting the stats of a half-elf (which suck) while playing the role of a human. A much more likely scenario is that a half-elf character played as a half-elf might some day want to pass off as either parent race for some specific purpose. Unfortunately, this is stubbornly refused by ancient dusty code that makes no sense and gets in the way of roleplay.

[Simple]

I still think SMuz view made the most logical sense and it seems to be what the Imms want.

No further questions your honour.

[aruna]

I don't see the big deal, guys. I've never played a half-elf, but I've always thought of the half-elven traits as on a spectrum from human to elf.

   |--------------------|--------------------|
human             half-elf                  elf

If your character is closer to a human, you roll a human.  If your character is closer to an elf, you roll an elf.  If your character is a true half-breed, the mix of traits as described in the documentation, then you roll a half-elf, and good luck trying to pass as anything but. I don't see why assess -v shouldn't give you this information, for the reason SMuz described. The grey areas can be easily covered with hints in gameplay and character descriptions, or Xygax's offer of a special app.

No, I don't want to spend my special application allowance and wait a month or more to play a character the way it's described in the god damn documentation.

There are plenty of characters/concepts in the documentation that require special applications, especially to cover grey areas such as this one.

[hyzhenhok]

I don't see the big deal, guys. I've never played a half-elf, but I've always thought of the half-elven traits as on a spectrum from human to elf.

  |--------------------|--------------------|
human             half-elf                  elf

If your character is closer to a human, you roll a human.  If your character is closer to an elf, you roll an elf.  If your character is a true half-breed, the mix of traits as described in the documentation, then you roll a half-elf, and good luck trying to pass as anything but. I don't see why assess -v shouldn't give you this information, for the reason SMuz described. The grey areas can be easily covered with hints in gameplay and character descriptions, or Xygax's offer of a special app.

No, I don't want to spend my special application allowance and wait a month or more to play a character the way it's described in the god damn documentation.

There are plenty of characters/concepts in the documentation that require special applications, especially to cover grey areas such as this one.

It's a shame this flies in the face of the documentation.

[spawnloser]

No single half-elf should be able to pass for BOTH human and elf.  One half-elf could pass for one or the other.

If you're coded as a human or an elf, you are a human or an elf, not a half-elf.  Just because your blood isn't pure doesn't mean that you are a half-elf.  If you are a half-elf, though, you could either be unable to pass as either... or be able to pass as one.  This is not represented in the code because of 'assess -v' the way assess works right now.  Either the documentation should change or 'assess -v' should give the "for their race" response to everyone regardless of race.

Additionally, though this is slightly off-topic from where the conversation is going, I seriously dislike that when you're the same race you get the 'younger/older than you' response from assess.  Seriously, if you're 1 year younger than someone, when you're an adult, it's HARD to tell just by looking at someone if they're older by a year, younger by a year or damn close to your age.  You should only have a general idea and returning the age range the person is in regardless of race is a better solution in my eyes.

On the same topic as my last paragraph, if someone is 40 years older than you or 20 years older than you, you should be able to tell the difference.  However, if you're the same race as someone, you CAN'T except by clues in the sdesc/mdesc.  Meanwhile, members of other races can codedly tell the difference between the two.  How much sense does this make?

[Elgiva]

I actually agree with Spawnloser here - if you play character who is much older than rest of PC population, you end with every each PC around being "much younger than you" - but you can't say if this "much younger" means it's teenager or middle-aged man. That makes no sense to me.

[a strange shadow]

I actually agree with Spawnloser here - if you play character who is much older than rest of PC population, you end with every each PC around being "much younger than you" - but you can't say if this "much younger" means it's teenager or middle-aged man. That makes no sense to me.

This.

[FantasyWriter]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is the explanation given by staff as to why they took away >who c:

I am one of those awful staff members who was for who c being removed.  Why?  Because it is an ooc construct.  Why should anyone automagickally know who in their clan is online at any given time, when they can just as easily take IC measures to find them?  I find the ability to do such a thing jarring and unrealistic.

assess -v is an ooc construct. Why should anyone automagickally know that someone is a half elf when they can just as easily take IC measures to find out?  I find a definitive coded way to know this jarring and unrealistic.

Solution:  Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.

[spawnloser]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is the explanation given by staff as to why they took away >who c:

I am one of those awful staff members who was for who c being removed.  Why?  Because it is an ooc construct.  Why should anyone automagickally know who in their clan is online at any given time, when they can just as easily take IC measures to find them?  I find the ability to do such a thing jarring and unrealistic.

assess -v is an ooc construct. Why should anyone automagickally know that someone is a half elf when they can just as easily take IC measures to find out?  I find a definitive coded way to know this jarring and unrealistic.

Solution:  Make 'assess -v' return "for their race" to everyone, regardless of race.

Cheer!  I love it when a plan comes together.

[SMuz]

I've always felt assess -v as an IC construct. You assess the character by looking at him. He notices you looking at him. You stare at him for a while and see that he's taller, heavier, older, or not particularly sure how old he is because he's a different race.

Hmm... it would be fun if it worked like value. Maybe even based off value and scan. If completely unskilled, you could be 10% off the height, weight, etc. If you're a half-elf, you have a 10% of mistaking a human or elf as a HE. If you're human, you have a 10% of mistaking a HE as a human... and vice versa. You can always ask your friends whether they think the fella at the bar looks a little half-elven if you're not sure.

[Nyr]

The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason.  It's not OOC information.

-- X

[spawnloser]

The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason.  It's not OOC information.

-- X

If that is the official staff position, fine, but as said in another thread where the debate is quite hot right now... we're all entitled to our opinions and at least a few of us believe that the documentation and this command do not agree.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to pass for anything but a half-elf when you are playing one while this command continues to give this information.

[Eloran]

Nyr, do you think you could illustrate some points, or perhaps explain what said "reason" is?

[FantasyWriter]

The other things assess -v shows you are pretty easily noticed by a good once over:

Age       : He's got a shit-load of wrinkles and gray hair.
Condition: He's not bleeding anywhere noticeable, so he seems alright.
Stamina  : He's sweating like a mo-fo and looks like he's about to passed out.
Armed   : Yeah... those aren't kitchen utensils in his hands.

Race      : He looks like he aged a little bit differently that I did... must be a breed!!!!

The code indicates that the person you're assessing is not of your race for a reason.  It's not OOC information.

-- X

Xygax,
So the code was written with the intent of given a coded way to obtain DEFINITIVE information to a character about another character that would be questionable IC and also discoverable IC?

Thanks,
FW

[spawnloser]

Nyr, do you think you could illustrate some points, or perhaps explain what said "reason" is?

Yes, please.  Why is this considered (by the staff) to be the proper way for 'assess -v' to work?  Why should every human be able to instantly and automagickally know when any half-elf that looks like a human isn't a human?  Why should every elf be able to do the same to every half-elf that looks like an elf?  I mean, looks like a human and smells like a human... must be human, right?  No.  Not the way this command works.  Simply repeating that it is correct is like elementary schoolyard arguing, "Yes it is!"  Give us more.

[Nyr]

There's not too much to read into on that quoted remark, but I'll be glad to elaborate a bit.

People of a certain race can usually discern the traits that distinguish those not of their race. 
Based on the history of Zalanthas and a history of intolerance for breeds, humans and elves both would look with suspicion at someone that appears as though they don't fit the mold of the race. 

A more slender human with pointed ears and etched features?  Seems a little out of the ordinary--I wonder if they are a breed? "Hey--your mother kanks 'neckers!" This causes a conflict to ensue between the human and suspected breed.  Could be that the person isn't a breed at all.  This doesn't mean that this sort of situation happens every time someone falls outside of the boundaries, but assess -v can be another reflection of that "non-rightness" that is picked up.
A more bulky elf with a generally stronger physique and less defined features?  Seems a little strange--I wonder if they are a breed?  The same thought above applies.

If you would like to play a "hidden" half elf, you have the option of choosing to be a human or elf that is actually a half-elf with more human or elven tendencies, and choose to take on the more difficult road of roleplaying someone that looks like an elf (or a human) so much as to be completely indistinguishable, yet still possesses the internal conflict every half-elf faces.  The "coded" half-elf race is noticeably not human and not elvish to both humans and elves in subtle fashions.  By choosing to be a half-elf, you acknowledge that you're going to be treading a road of more difficult roleplaying--half-elves are not accepted by their human heritage or by their elven heritage.

[FantasyWriter]

Thanks Nyr.

Your reasoning dictates "suspicion" of the person being a breed (which should already be in their mdesc and actions, hence being able to find out ic).
Assess -v doesn't offer suspicion, it gives a definitive answer.

[Eloran]

Your reasoning dictates "suspicion" of the person being a breed (which should already be in their mdesc and actions, hence being able to find out ic).
Assess -v doesn't offer suspicion, it gives a definitive answer.

You wrote my post for me.