Assess -v

[Majikal]

I do see the angle on assess -v not being used to pick up race, though, I do feel that if you're half-elf looks so much like a human or so much like an elf that nobody could tell it by your sdesc or mdesc then you picked the wrong race at creation.

[Eloran]

I do feel that if you're half-elf looks so much like a human or so much like an elf that nobody could tell it by your sdesc or mdesc then you picked the wrong race at creation.

Really? Why?

IRL I'm quite certain you've met people of mixed racial descent whom you could barely distinguish in the picking up of ques. Granted, there aren't lithe sharps with razor-like ears running about in Arizona, but still.

[Simple]

And why is it that humans can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as human, but not as elves? Why is it that elves can sniff out half-elves that are masquerading as elves, but not as humans? Why do humans and elves get to have this magic race determining button and dwarves, muls, and half-giants don't?

Lol, pretty much my point. People are easily able to tell when someone is of their own race, but can't really tell the difference between two other races. Like a Thai can tell if someone else claiming to be Thai is really Vietnamese, but a Caucasian European can't always tell the difference between either if it's subtle.

It works realistically. Assess does what assessing someone else should do; you look at them closely and you can tell that they're not of your race when you do. An elf won't be able to tell a human from a half-elf, because they both look the same to him, but a human should naturally know that he's not of the same race. A human should be able to tell just from height and weight that the half-elf is not human.

This post has made the most sense of all.

[FantasyWriter]

Agreed.  Well said Smuz.

[Jenred]

You're welcome to range from full-human to half-elf to elf and vary your bloodedness along the way.  Do please make sure that your coded race most closely matches the race you appear and live as, however.

If you "appear" as a human -i.e. have human in your sdesc-, but have some elf blood, your race should be human.

[Delstro]

Exactly. If you are playing a half-elf that doesn't have any physical signs of being part elf, you should be human. You can still be human and have the half-elf persona of trying to fit in, but still wanting to be independent.

[hyzhenhok]

It's good that we got some staff clarification on this.

I think the "half-elves can often pass as either elves or humans" should be removed from the help file, though. It encourages people who want to play this sort of role to roll a half-elf, when apparently they're supposed to roll either elf or human.

[Armaddict]

Sweet.  All those noble houses that don't want elven blood are screwed.

[Jenred]

I think the "half-elves can often pass as either elves or humans" should be removed from the help file, though. It encourages people who want to play this sort of role to roll a half-elf, when apparently they're supposed to roll either elf or human.

I think its good to keep in there. Some people still like to play half-elves AS half-elves. The help file leaves interpretation of features up to the player for the most part. You could be a half-elf with round eyes and pointy ears, or some other variation of traits, and reasonably pass as either to an untrained eye. Especially if your sdesc is ambiguous with "male" - like ... the lanky, pointy-earred male. Someone might mistake him for an elf (OOC contrivances aside). And he could likely pass himself off as one, if people didn't immediately say in their heads (if he was an elf his sdesc would say elf).

[Wyx]

Nobody's saying you can't roll a half-elf and try to pass as a human. We're simply saying that you shouldn't be upset if someone discerns your heritage via whatever means they have available.

[Eloran]

Nobody's saying you can't roll a half-elf and try to pass as a human. We're simply saying that you shouldn't be upset if someone discerns your heritage via whatever means they have available.

No one's getting butthurt man. Some of us just thinking people using assess -v as their sole means to uncovering one's race is a bit flaky. I liken it to guild sniffing. It's just dumb.

[Armaddict]

via whatever means they have available.

That's what I was getting at.  A well-disguised half-elf who is very very strongly trying to fulfill their roleplay and fit in can get 30 DAYS of gameplay for that awesome roleplay completely removed just because someone who had no idea accidentally notices once while searching for their age or whatever, and decides they suddenly 'noticed' things they didn't before.

It's ridiculous, and while not powergaming, is taking that whole 'code allows it' mentality to the extreme.  It's like saying there's no such thing as overhunting simply because there is knowledge that the code will still spawn the things.

[Reiloth]

Or, as I have known a few PC's to be, a half-elf that -doesn't know- they are a half-elf.

In a world like Zalanthas -- You'd expect most half-elves to be orphans. Who the hell wants'm?

I do see the point of 'play the race you are most similar to' though. It's something that you can add to your bios, add to your RP. There's no real reason that you need the perks/minuses of choosing the half-elven race at creation if you are trying to avoid the IC consequences of being a half-elf by not choosing to put 'half elf' in your sdesc or mdesc.

However -- I don't see a real reason why it should -stay- the way it is, even considering that thought process. While you say it isn't OOC information, Xygax, I fail to see how it isn't. The point of assess -v <person> is to determine the general 'health and fatigue' status of a target. It's also used to compare how tall they are compared to you, and how heavy they are compared to you, and how old they are -compared to you-. While it's easy to say "Well, how can you compare an elf to a human?", how exactly would your character also be able to divine how old an elf is compared to another elf out of thin air?

"He appears old for his race". How the hell would you know that? That sounds like something that would be determined from IC experience, knowing the differences between a young elf and an old elf.

Why not just eliminate 'for his/her race'? "He looks old." "She looks young!" "This codger should be dead by now!"

That way, you aren't race sniffing. ANd you -might- think that elf is old as shit, but in his terms...He's just getting started.

*shrug*

[tortall]

"He appears old for his race". How the hell would you know that? That sounds like something that would be determined from IC experience, knowing the differences between a young elf and an old elf.

Why not just eliminate 'for his/her race'? "He looks old." "She looks young!" "This codger should be dead by now!"

That way, you aren't race sniffing. ANd you -might- think that elf is old as shit, but in his terms...He's just getting started.

*shrug*

[Jenred]

I agree the command is a little retarded in some aspects, but it is not unique in that respect.
And the role-play argument doesn't really hold water, when people have had similar complaints/issues with many "disguising" features for awhile.

The "assess -v" command lets someone know you are not their race. I don't think I have ever seen or experienced an incident where this has been used negatively, ever. And this is the first time (in the somewhat recent past) that I have seen it come up. If you compare this with issues that repeat themselves almost bi-monthly, it seems like it is really not as big a problem as some people make it out to be.

Comparitively, the Look command has been the bain of disguises since people started wearing hoods/masks. Being a frequent topic on the boards, the "look" command sees through masks, hoods and clothing - similarly disrupting whatever RP the person might have been putting in, all because another character can instantly know who this masked, hooded and facewraped person is.


I imagine that uniformalizing the code in regards to comparatives would be something pretty daunting. Because assess, when done to someone of your race, gives them a comparative age group - Younger then you, older then you, much older then you. Taller then you, many times heavier then you.

If it was simplified into "they look old" "they look heavy", it doesn't provide its (i imagine) more routine function of giving you comparative data. Yes its unfortunate that it spoils a race for some people (likely the reason this thread was started all of a sudden, which also likely gives away someone's character).... but on the same note as earlier, I've never met a half-elf in many years that was pretending to be either full-elf or full-human.

[Delstro]

I think it should be expanded upon.

When a noble assess -v's a commoner they should also show that "They appear young for their race."

[Reiloth]

I agree the command is a little retarded in some aspects, but it is not unique in that respect.
And the role-play argument doesn't really hold water, when people have had similar complaints/issues with many "disguising" features for awhile.

The "assess -v" command lets someone know you are not their race. I don't think I have ever seen or experienced an incident where this has been used negatively, ever. And this is the first time (in the somewhat recent past) that I have seen it come up. If you compare this with issues that repeat themselves almost bi-monthly, it seems like it is really not as big a problem as some people make it out to be.

Comparitively, the Look command has been the bain of disguises since people started wearing hoods/masks. Being a frequent topic on the boards, the "look" command sees through masks, hoods and clothing - similarly disrupting whatever RP the person might have been putting in, all because another character can instantly know who this masked, hooded and facewraped person is.


I imagine that uniformalizing the code in regards to comparatives would be something pretty daunting. Because assess, when done to someone of your race, gives them a comparative age group - Younger then you, older then you, much older then you. Taller then you, many times heavier then you.

If it was simplified into "they look old" "they look heavy", it doesn't provide its (i imagine) more routine function of giving you comparative data. Yes its unfortunate that it spoils a race for some people (likely the reason this thread was started all of a sudden, which also likely gives away someone's character).... but on the same note as earlier, I've never met a half-elf in many years that was pretending to be either full-elf or full-human.

I started writing a response, but then I stopped caring about this code change in general.

[Agent_137]

i haven't read past the first page. mostly because i've read this thread previously a few years ago. but i'm going to respond directly to the  original post:

bottom line: if you have SO LITTLE HALF ELF in you that you could never be found out by close inspection, then just roll a fucking human, you twink.

the race half elf should only be used by characters with at least one single, visible hint. And that hint should be in the mdesc, and the ass -v thing simply confirms it. look + ass-v = 'closer inspection'.

[Majikal]

bottom line: if you have SO LITTLE HALF ELF in you that you could never be found out by close inspection, then just roll a fucking human, you twink.

the race half elf should only be used by characters with at least one single, visible hint. And that hint should be in the mdesc, and the ass -v thing simply confirms it. look + ass-v = 'closer inspection'.

Truth.

[RogueGunslinger]

While I have to applaud Synth for the epic win, I have to completely disagree with staff opinion on this. I'm with this dude:

via whatever means they have available.

That's what I was getting at.  A well-disguised half-elf who is very very strongly trying to fulfill their roleplay and fit in can get 30 DAYS of gameplay for that awesome roleplay completely removed just because someone who had no idea accidentally notices once while searching for their age or whatever, and decides they suddenly 'noticed' things they didn't before.

It's ridiculous, and while not powergaming, is taking that whole 'code allows it' mentality to the extreme.  It's like saying there's no such thing as overhunting simply because there is knowledge that the code will still spawn the things.

[Thunkkin]

I like how "look" doesn't reveal this racial information, despite it being an obvious inspection of another player and how "assess -v", which apparently, now, is an inspection consisting of deep and detailed observation of every inch of someone's anatomy, is an hemote that pierces even the thickest cloak and most careful disguise with a passing glance of racial sonar.

And jeez, people, stop with the "twink" accusation on this one.  We get the point.  The docs plainly state that half-elves can pass as other races.  Players plainly approach the race with this in mind.  We now have a staff clarification that half-elves can pass, but only when they're not codedly half-elves.  Accusing players of being twinks when they played in accordance with the docs and expected the code to back them up on it is stupid. 

[Marauder Moe]

My thoughts...

I wouldn't be opposed to removing the racial detection aspect from assess -v.

That said, it's been plainly stated by staff (even before this thread) that assess -v is a valid IC means of determining someone's race.  It's not really all that unreasonable a proclamation either, IMO.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, Armaddict, but this was just the most recent post exemplifying what I dislike about this recent assess -v uproar:

A well-disguised half-elf who is very very strongly trying to fulfill their roleplay and fit in can get 30 DAYS of gameplay for that awesome roleplay completely removed...

Completely removed?  At worst, killed, but there are plenty of more arbitrary things to be killed for than being discovered with hidden race that you purposefully picked at character creation and purposefully decided to hide from people that would kill you for it.

If not killed, then you'll likely get some awesome character development and a chance to completely reshape their life.

just because someone who had no idea accidentally notices once while searching for their age or whatever, and decides they suddenly 'noticed' things they didn't before.

What's wrong with someone suddenly noticing something they hadn't before?  I've had it happen with half-elves even without using assess -v.  I've had it happen IRL too, one day looking at a picture and noticing something about my grandmother, later to find out she was part Mongolian.


Like I said, I wouldn't mind it if you couldn't tell race from assess -v, but I think using it is far from the OOC twinkery injustice that people are making it out to be.

[FantasyWriter]

The only reason I think it is OOC is that it gives a DEFINITIVE knowledge that the character is of a race that is supposedly nearly indistinguishable in some cases as per documentation.

PS- it's been at least a year since I played a breed.

[SMuz]

Heh, I think a solution would be to give a delay to assess -v. It should discourage people from assessing people willy-nilly. And it should echo before the assess succeeds, giving you enough time to punch that guy in the face for staring at you like that. Too bad we already have too many delays in this game.

[Comrade Canadia]

I'm totally with FantasyWriter here.

Also, the staff responses to this thread indicate a policy that reads as half-baked and contradictory. The answer I'm reading between the lines is "We don't think it's a big enough deal to sweat over." This, I can understand. Instead I see this official policy:

- Documentation says that half-elves can pass as humans and elves.
- However, a coded half-elf can never pass as a human or elf because of the innate ability to instantly detect someone's race - which has been very clearly indicated as appropriate roleplay to use this to weed out half-elves.
- Despite this amazing ability to instantly see through disguises, half-elves are encouraged to roll as humans or elves with a half-elf racial background - which then renders this ability to detect race completely useless. Nobody will ever know unless you tell them.

If there is a 100% foolproof way to circumvent this detection ability THEN WHY IS IT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?!

The response I've read is that anybody who plays a coded half-elf and tries to pass as a human is obviously a twink - which has a creepy Emmanuel Goldstein vibe to it.

So far I've seen arguments which claim the system is working as intended - which can be translated to "shut up". The reality I'm inferring from this is that this contradictory way of handling half-elves is simply the result of dealing with what the code, imperfect though still awesome, has to offer. It's not worth the effort to fix, as this is really a minor inconvenience, not a game-breaking catastrophe. If this is the case, I'll happily accept that. But right now I'm reading that this is not only the best way to deal with half-elves, but that disagreeing means that I'm a min-maxing twink who has no right to an opinion.