RL to Sirihish slang

[SMuz]

Was going to ask a helper for translation, but might as well start a new thread just for everyone to know

Copper (color, e.g. copper hair, copper-toned) = ?
"My skills are getting rusty" = ?
deja vu = ? (Allundean term?)

[Rhyden]

Copper (color, e.g. copper hair, copper-toned) = ?

I've used copper before and seen others use it before. Same goes with bronze, iron, steel, etc. in descriptions. It would be a rarer word to describe something when spoken. You could use brown as replacement for copper. Maybe brownish-red? Tan?

"My skills are getting rusty" = ?

Tough one. Maybe use 'dusty' instead?

deja vu = ? (Allundean term?)

Tricky. I don't know many other words that describe deja vu. You could say 'something I'd already seen', but deja vu has a better connotative feel to it, irl. I'm not sure how many other french-english words are used in Armageddon. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I bet there's one or two.

[Yokunama]

"My skills are getting rusty" = ?

My skills are getting dull.

[Agent_137]

rusty = shitty

[Ashes]

As he works his light bone sparring sword through a series of stiff maneuvers, the grizzled, scruffy-bearded man says, in sirihish:
                                                                     "Feels like a necker shit on m'sword arm while ah've been away."

[Cutthroat]

Copper (color, e.g. copper hair, copper-toned) = ?

I've used copper before and seen others use it before. Same goes with bronze, iron, steel, etc. in descriptions. It would be a rarer word to describe something when spoken. You could use brown as replacement for copper. Maybe brownish-red? Tan?

I mostly agree with everyone in the thread so far, but I think using "copper" in speech is alright. If your character is from either of the two major cities you've likely seen (or heard) some things made of copper constructed around the city. Others would probably at least hear what copper looks like, though they've never seen it themselves. Most would know a war was fought over it.

[Voular]

Allanak has a huge steel dragon outside it's gates. Most nobles and templars wear silver. Certain characters have toted around various forms of metal items in the past and probably present. (both PC and NPCs). There was a huge war faught over metal, I suspect many soldiers/aides/assassins would at least know how to identify it easily. It's a stuff of legend, and I am sure every child wants to go stare at the steel dragon or ring certain copper bells over and over again.

But of course, no one would be dumb enough to let anything "rust" in this world by purpose.. But there are "rust coloured" things everywhere, to describe the colour rust - I don't think the word is to jarring.. But in the sense that you're getting rusty might be pushing it a bit for immersion. But hey. Whatever floats your skimmer.

[Marauder Moe]

I think most city commoners know the common words for metal.

Just remember that if using them as part of a colloquialism, keep in mind that all types of metal carry a connotation of inherent value and rarity much greater than even the usage of "gold" does in our language.  Describing someone as having copper hair would be very flattering.

However, "cold as steel" would not make sense as most people will never touch metal and even if they did it would be unlikely to feel cold.  Also, references to metallic weapons would also be unusual, like "draw steel" or "cross steel".  I don't think too many commoners would be aware of the physical properties of metal constructs either.  "Hard as iron" wouldn't make sense to most people.

Given Zalanthas's lack of moisture I think that rust is going to be extremely rare, and probably not part of most people's vocabulary.


As for deja vu, well, there's no reason every language will inevitably have a specific word to describe that phenomenon.  Heck, English doesn't even have such a word as evidenced by the fact we had to steal a French one.

[tortall]

IMO, with making descriptions, those are there for the PLAYER to understand what the CHARACTER is seeing. Yes, there are some words that I find jarring, but for the most part, use what word you think would best describe your character. It's for the PLAYER, not the CHARACTER.

[Shalooonsh]

The problem with rust is that it is virtually non existent in Zalanthas.

Rust requires hydration.  Without hydration, it does not occur.  Much like fire requires heat, fuel, and oxygen and if you remove one of the three fire will not function without additional chemical stimuli (as with magnesium, which will burn underwater by separating the hydrogen and oxygen atoms.)

As you may have noticed, water is a bit scarce on Zalanthas.  Even if you got a team of vivaduans (kudos to anyone who tries this IG (kidding!)) to dump water on the Dragon Statue for a King's Age straight, most likely there would be very little rusting that occurs, simply because the atmosphere surrounding the metal would suck away the water almost as quickly as it could be formed (and we'll not even enter the fact that that statue is likely hot enough to turn water to steam instantly during mid day).

What all this means is that saying you're 'rusty' is just the equivalent of saying you're kind of brownish red... which makes absolutely no sense.  The references to rust colored whatevers is simply a mention of color.  It has no significance what-so-ever with being less skillful, off your game, or any of the associated meanings that rusty has in our RL lives.

IMHO (and this is not staff opinion), using the word 'dim' is a lot more suiting.  "My sword skills are a bit dim today."  Light levels are something that every Zalanthan understands, but using the word 'shade' (or any derivative) would just not be fitting, since shade is commonly regarded as a good thing.  A dim glow crystal, however, has the exact opposite meaning... especially if you are A Place You Should Not Be (tm) which is also dark.

[Marauder Moe]

IMO, with making descriptions, those are there for the PLAYER to understand what the CHARACTER is seeing. Yes, there are some words that I find jarring, but for the most part, use what word you think would best describe your character. It's for the PLAYER, not the CHARACTER.

Who's talking about descriptions? 

[Shalooonsh]

IMO, with making descriptions, those are there for the PLAYER to understand what the CHARACTER is seeing. Yes, there are some words that I find jarring, but for the most part, use what word you think would best describe your character. It's for the PLAYER, not the CHARACTER.

Who's talking about descriptions? 

For my understanding, no one.  To rerail, this thread is about slang.

[rishenko]

Was going to ask a helper for translation, but might as well start a new thread just for everyone to know

Copper (color, e.g. copper hair, copper-toned) = ?
"My skills are getting rusty" = ?
deja vu = ? (Allundean term?)

Simple word replacements:
rusty = dim
rusty = shitty
rusty = sandy:  Sand overtakes everything, builds up over time and is a fucking pain in the ass to the eyes and movements.  Sandy makes a great replacement.

deja vu = Whira's flash:  Since Whira is luck, randomness, and a fickle wind, I could easily see somebody comparing a happenstance or "seen again" to a brief flash of Whira.
deja vu = corden dak:  Just make shit up and when somebody asks, "wtf mate?", say you heard it off a tribal and explain it as you see fit.
deja vu = Whoa.  (Hey, worked for Neo)

Longer replacements:
rusty = Been so long, I'm now swinging like a Kadian in heat.
rusty = You'd think my fuckin' sword arm was swapped with a drunk Bynner's!
rusty = Gah, lost the touch, arm's full of sand and shit these days.

[Ampere]

Deja vu isn't slang.

[Shalooonsh]

Deja vu isn't slang.

That's true, it's not slang.  However, no matter how much we all think it is, Tuluk is not France.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I like rishenko's idea to use "Whira's flash" instead of deja vu.  Whereas I'm okay with using most foreign loanwords in-game (I made a thread about this some many months ago), deja vu does seem a little over-the-line.  "Whira's flash," on the other hand, or something else related to Whira, fits right in with elemental superstitions and sounds both Zalanthan and catchy.  I dig it.

[Jdr]

I use dusty instead of rusty.

[Ourla]

I like rishenko's idea to use "Whira's flash" instead of deja vu.  Whereas I'm okay with using most foreign loanwords in-game (I made a thread about this some many months ago), deja vu does seem a little over-the-line.  "Whira's flash," on the other hand, or something else related to Whira, fits right in with elemental superstitions and sounds both Zalanthan and catchy.  I dig it.

I'd like to see someone in Tuluk professing they were experiencing a 'flash of Whira.'   

[Synthesis]

In a world of magick and psionics, I'd expect deja vu to be more associated with psionic activity than with the wind element.

[Delstro]

Deja vu- Running Skinny/Short Dwarf

I just had a running skinny!

I feel like I've already seen this skinny.

[Malken]

Deja vu isn't slang.

That's true, it's not slang.  However, no matter how much we all think it is, Tuluk is not France.

Nor is it Britain. I'm sure that sirihish has a translation for "Deja Vu" just like it does for every other English words we use in game.

[Jingo]

Rederail:

I think rust should be in the game. A powerful Nilazi should totally be able to make metal turn into rust.

[Synthesis]

Rederail:

I think rust should be in the game. A powerful Nilazi should totally be able to make metal turn into rust.

What exactly does void have to do with rust?

[Jdr]

Entropy I guess?

[rishenko]

I like rishenko's idea to use "Whira's flash" instead of deja vu.  Whereas I'm okay with using most foreign loanwords in-game (I made a thread about this some many months ago), deja vu does seem a little over-the-line.  "Whira's flash," on the other hand, or something else related to Whira, fits right in with elemental superstitions and sounds both Zalanthan and catchy.  I dig it.

I'd like to see someone in Tuluk professing they were experiencing a 'flash of Whira.'   

You mean like somebody having Krath's Touch?

[Ampere]

Deja vu isn't slang.

That's true, it's not slang.  However, no matter how much we all think it is, Tuluk is not France.

...Sun King?   

[Shalooonsh]

I like rishenko's idea to use "Whira's flash" instead of deja vu.  Whereas I'm okay with using most foreign loanwords in-game (I made a thread about this some many months ago), deja vu does seem a little over-the-line.  "Whira's flash," on the other hand, or something else related to Whira, fits right in with elemental superstitions and sounds both Zalanthan and catchy.  I dig it.

I'd like to see someone in Tuluk professing they were experiencing a 'flash of Whira.'   

You mean like somebody having Krath's Touch?

I could see the Tuluki version being referred to as Sun King's Kiss, Muk's Sight or Radiance's Warning.

[Synthesis]

I like rishenko's idea to use "Whira's flash" instead of deja vu.  Whereas I'm okay with using most foreign loanwords in-game (I made a thread about this some many months ago), deja vu does seem a little over-the-line.  "Whira's flash," on the other hand, or something else related to Whira, fits right in with elemental superstitions and sounds both Zalanthan and catchy.  I dig it.

I'd like to see someone in Tuluk professing they were experiencing a 'flash of Whira.'   

You mean like somebody having Krath's Touch?

I could see the Tuluki version being referred to as Sun King's Kiss, Muk's Sight or Radiance's Warning.

Am I the only one getting a vision of Jihaens giving "the Sun King's Kiss" to young boys?

[Ampere]

I like rishenko's idea to use "Whira's flash" instead of deja vu.  Whereas I'm okay with using most foreign loanwords in-game (I made a thread about this some many months ago), deja vu does seem a little over-the-line.  "Whira's flash," on the other hand, or something else related to Whira, fits right in with elemental superstitions and sounds both Zalanthan and catchy.  I dig it.

I'd like to see someone in Tuluk professing they were experiencing a 'flash of Whira.'   

You mean like somebody having Krath's Touch?

I could see the Tuluki version being referred to as Sun King's Kiss,
Muk's Sight or Radiance's Warning.

I still say it's unnecessary as we've been using the phrase for over a hundred years.  But this one's pretty cool...find out IC.

[Malken]

You guys have all convinced me to stick with deja vu.

[Jdr]

There's something even MORE jarring about trying to use some IC phrase for something so ingrained into our language as (for example) deja vu. Seriously I'd just get embarrassed for you.

[FantasyWriter]

I use 'per se' IG.

[Malken]

I only use, "Merci beaucoup" and "a la carte", myself.

[Synthesis]

I only use, "Merci beaucoup" and "a la carte", myself.

> As he rides through the gates at the head of a formation of brown-clad mercenaries, the man wearing a black beret shouts, in northern-accented sirihish:
     "Laissez bon temps roulez!"

[X-D]

Actually, rust only requires oxygen. Iron will rust at 0% H2O (just very slowly...unless it is hot or the concentration is high or other factors to speed the process) Iron will NOT rust at 0% oxygen no matter what other factors are involved.

Still, rust as a color is fine, it only would take one person to ever notice rust on an iron knife then later use it as the color for that guys hair for it to catch on and stick for all time.

But most commoners would have no idea of the affects of rust on iron, so, using the term being rusty would be very unlikely.

[Comrade Canadia]

I don't really see what the big deal is, to be honest. If the language is to be policed, making sure that it doesn't sound 'modern' is my biggest concern, rather than splitting hairs over whether or not Zalanthians would know what the word rusty means. Perhaps they use the word rusty without having any idea where the root of the word comes from - suddenly it just becomes a literal term instead of a figurative one and we don't have to awkwardly modify the way we speak. The same can be said for French words. English borrows an enormous amount from the French language. To me, even though we're speaking Sirihish in game, we're seeing an English translation. There's too much of the language which doesn't -quite- mesh with the game world.

So as a general rule, I think anything that sounds like modern slang, or obviously borrowed language isn't really appropriate. The way we use deja vu indicates it's explicitly borrowed from another language, so I'm not too comfortable with it. It'd be nicer for some IC 'fantasy gibberish' to be used to replace phrases like that. Most iso clan docs are full of expressions like that, why not include a couple for sirihish speakers?

[Twilight]

Zalanthans may not be referring to iron rust.  They may be referring to rust that occurs on wheat.  Which at least some commoners would be familiar with.

[staggerlee]

Do whatever you feel comfortable with, and give others some leeway when you disagree with their choices.

[FantasyWriter]

Do whatever you feel comfortable with, and give others some leeway when you disagree with their choices.

[Riev]

I only use, "Merci beaucoup" and "a la carte", myself.

> As he rides through the gates at the head of a formation of brown-clad mercenaries, the man wearing a black beret shouts, in northern-accented sirihish:
     "Laissez bon temps roulez!"

Straight to Sig.

[Mood]

There's something even MORE jarring about trying to use some IC phrase for something so ingrained into our language as (for example) deja vu. Seriously I'd just get embarrassed for you.

[jhunter]

Heh, I liked Delstro's "running skinny" myself.

[RogueGunslinger]

Do whatever you feel comfortable with, and give others some leeway when you disagree with their choices.

You come up with to most profound shit sometimes, Stagger. Look forward to you posts, more often than not.

[Potaje]

Wagon is German... English and not kings english.. Is a homoginized amalgam of world languages.

[rishenko]

Do whatever you feel comfortable with, and give others some leeway when you disagree with their choices.

QFT.

If you like one of the options besides deja vu, per se, et cetera, it's your decision.  It's not a bad thing to use something set in the context of the world.  People use "Tek's balls", "Krath's touch", "feck", "kanking" and various others without being looked at like retards, so why not add even more flavor?

[Eloran]

If you like one of the options besides deja vu, per se, et cetera, it's your decision.  It's not a bad thing to use something set in the context of the world.  People use "Tek's balls", "Krath's touch", "feck", "kanking" and various others without being looked at like retards, so why not add even more flavor?

Sure, it's your decision, albeit one I find to be wrong.

1) Deja vu is French, not Zalanthan. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

2) Per se is Latin, not Zalanthan. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

3) Etcetera  is a Latin expression, not a Zalanthan one. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

Lastly, people use words like "Tek's Balls," "Krath Struck" and "kanking" because they fit within the mold of Zalanthas. Using these words RL would yield "wtf looks."

[rishenko]

If you like one of the options besides deja vu, per se, et cetera, it's your decision.  It's not a bad thing to use something set in the context of the world.  People use "Tek's balls", "Krath's touch", "feck", "kanking" and various others without being looked at like retards, so why not add even more flavor?

Sure, it's your decision, albeit one I find to be wrong.

1) Deja vu is French, not Zalanthan. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

2) Per se is Latin, not Zalanthan. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

3) Etcetera  is a Latin expression, not a Zalanthan one. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

Lastly, people use words like "Tek's Balls," "Krath Struck" and "kanking" because they fit within the mold of Zalanthas. Using these words RL would yield "wtf looks."

Ahhh, my apologies...  For the sake of clarity, replace besides with instead.  I thought my next sentence after that, bolded as well, along with my previous suggestion of "Whira's Flash" would have been sufficient to show that we are actually in agreement.  Either way, *thumbs up* to people who come up with shit that fits Zalanthas instead of using semi-jarring phrases from the real world.

[Taven]

If you like one of the options besides deja vu, per se, et cetera, it's your decision.  It's not a bad thing to use something set in the context of the world.  People use "Tek's balls", "Krath's touch", "feck", "kanking" and various others without being looked at like retards, so why not add even more flavor?

Sure, it's your decision, albeit one I find to be wrong.

1) Deja vu is French, not Zalanthan. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

2) Per se is Latin, not Zalanthan. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

3) Etcetera  is a Latin expression, not a Zalanthan one. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

Lastly, people use words like "Tek's Balls," "Krath Struck" and "kanking" because they fit within the mold of Zalanthas. Using these words RL would yield "wtf looks."

I'm sorry, but "the" is English, it shouldn't belong.

Yes, that IS a trollish remark, but it bluntly makes my point. WE, the PLAYERS don't speak Sirihish. We speak English, and that means that no term is REALLY Zalanthian. We all have our own ideas of what "Zalanthian" is within English, but it's still not direct. I personally find many modern slang terms IC jarring, but if there's an instance where words like "Deja Vu" fit in, then I wouldn't flatly state that they don't belong.

Commonly, you see noble or more "learned" people using words that commoners can't eeasily grasp. I've had an immortal-animated PC make reference to a "River" before, and a certain Red Robe try to explain "Adjectives" to my character (who never did grasp the concept). I think that in the right setting and situation, alot of "not Zalanthian" words can work. What I find most jarring is not the little phrases from other languages that we use, but the common slang and speech patterns that are commonly used today slipping into Zalanthas. Deja Vu is a term; it might seem jarring in Zalanthas, but there is no real English eqivlent to it, in a single word.

I personally tend to use "I feel like this has happened before," or something of the like, but I don't think that "borrowed" words are THAT bad.

</rant>

Sorry, a little bit passionate there. I'm not trying to attack you, just express my opinions.

[Eloran]

I'm sorry, but "the" is English, it shouldn't belong.

Yes, that IS a trollish remark, but it bluntly makes my point.

1) Sorry, no. That's a poor and incorrect comparison.

2) No, said statement does nothing but make you look childish and rude.

WE, the PLAYERS don't speak Sirihish.

You are correct, we don't. However, our characters do. Try to imagine that the words your typing out aren't English in origin, but rather Sirihish, or Allundean, or Mirukkim.

Sorry, a little bit passionate there. I'm not trying to attack you, just express my opinions.

Perhaps you should edit your post to reflect your passion. You can be passionate about something without being rude and condescending.

[Rairen]

If you like one of the options besides deja vu, per se, et cetera, it's your decision.  It's not a bad thing to use something set in the context of the world.  People use "Tek's balls", "Krath's touch", "feck", "kanking" and various others without being looked at like retards, so why not add even more flavor?

Sure, it's your decision, albeit one I find to be wrong.

1) Deja vu is French, not Zalanthan. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

2) Per se is Latin, not Zalanthan. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

3) Etcetera  is a Latin expression, not a Zalanthan one. There is no context. The word simply shouldn't belong.

Lastly, people use words like "Tek's Balls," "Krath Struck" and "kanking" because they fit within the mold of Zalanthas. Using these words RL would yield "wtf looks."

I'm sorry, but "the" is English, it shouldn't belong.

Yes, that IS a trollish remark, but it bluntly makes my point. WE, the PLAYERS don't speak Sirihish. We speak English, and that means that no term is REALLY Zalanthian. We all have our own ideas of what "Zalanthian" is within English, but it's still not direct. I personally find many modern slang terms IC jarring, but if there's an instance where words like "Deja Vu" fit in, then I wouldn't flatly state that they don't belong.

Commonly, you see noble or more "learned" people using words that commoners can't eeasily grasp. I've had an immortal-animated PC make reference to a "River" before, and a certain Red Robe try to explain "Adjectives" to my character (who never did grasp the concept). I think that in the right setting and situation, alot of "not Zalanthian" words can work. What I find most jarring is not the little phrases from other languages that we use, but the common slang and speech patterns that are commonly used today slipping into Zalanthas. Deja Vu is a term; it might seem jarring in Zalanthas, but there is no real English eqivlent to it, in a single word.

I personally tend to use "I feel like this has happened before," or something of the like, but I don't think that "borrowed" words are THAT bad.

</rant>

Sorry, a little bit passionate there. I'm not trying to attack you, just express my opinions.

I love that folks care enough around here to have these kinds of debates and put serious thought into it, because it only increases the quality of the gameplay.  You know, however, in some ways, I kinda agree?  I think the piece I'd like to add is a degree of recognition of in character speech patterns.  One of the reasons I've intentionally used a word that was jarring is that I give myself a ten second limit.  If I can't think of another word, another phrase, or an entirely different conversation to follow, I'll spit out the word for the sake of gameplay - but only if it is in character.  My last character would never have called you a wanker, no matter how hilarious and appropriate the word may have been.  They might have called you a cretin, though, in a pinch.  (Thank you, Bono, for the inspiration.)

Uh... I've also made an IC reference to clouds (sorry, guys), completely lost a train of conversation due to the word "goosebumps" (sorry, other guys), and had a think/feel that went along the lines of:

You think:
"Let's cast this and see what fish you catch."

You feel that you love making up fantastical creatures for the sake of metaphor.

We all fuck up sometimes.  Give a guy or gal a break if it happens.   

[Taven]

WE, the PLAYERS don't speak Sirihish.

You are correct, we don't. However, our characters do. Try to imagine that the words your typing out aren't English in origin, but rather Sirihish, or Allundean, or Mirukkim.

I just don't see how something like "Deja Vu" is as different from using large, longer and more complex words in the game. It is effectively an English word, since we use it so much. I'd argue that it isn't slang, but DOES seem like something a more educated or sophisticated character would use, IF it was being used. I prefer to use other things, personally, but I don't think it's unreasonable to use it in game.

Uh... I've also made an IC reference to clouds (sorry, guys), completely lost a train of conversation due to the word "goosebumps" (sorry, other guys), and had a think/feel that went along the lines of:

You think:
"Let's cast this and see what fish you catch."

You feel that you love making up fantastical creatures for the sake of metaphor.

I don't think clouds is so bad, depending on how you used it. I could see "clouds of dust" just not the fluffy, poofy clouds that we see here on earth. Goosebumps also doesn't bother me, I think calling them <zalanthian creature>bumps would be far more jarring. Goosebumps are (to me, anyways!) just a word, it's not really about the geese.

The fish one, however, is an oops. Generally, if people mess up and I think they know it, I overlook it. If it's a newbie, then I'll try to make some IC reaction to it to show that it's not okay, but not really make a big deal out of it. If it's particularily jarring, and the player isn't that new, or they use it more then once, I might make a bigger IC deal out of it.

[X-D]

The only words that I think are bad are the ones that simply could not exist in Zalanthus.

Car, Television, Robot, toaster etc.

Other then that...the one who said "They speak the other language, we do not." Is correct...matter of fact, I've posted exactly that before on one of the older GDBs.

What you see on the screen is a translation to english from sirihish of what your PC hears. And what you type in gets translated to sirihish. None of us know if there is or is not a Sirihish or Mirukkim or allundean etc word for Dejavu or not, we can assume though, since there are other words and terms in other languages on this planet, it might indeed exist.

Oh, I remember where I posted this before, Somebody used asshat IG and somebody else had to bring it up on the GDB. Should Asshat be allowed...yes, because it is a translation of a term in whatever zalanthus language that means the same thing. True, it is prefered by many to use the rather nonsense zalanthus words because for them I guess it helps them play. I personaly hate many of the words because they either sound silly to me or I have to actually think about what they mean, which of course means lesser impact.

[Eloran]

None of us know if there is or is not a Sirihish or Mirukkim or allundean etc word for Dejavu or not, we can assume though, since there are other words and terms in other languages on this planet, it might indeed exist.

Why don't you get creative and make a word up that stands for "etcetera?"

[Malken]

None of us know if there is or is not a Sirihish or Mirukkim or allundean etc word for Dejavu or not, we can assume though, since there are other words and terms in other languages on this planet, it might indeed exist.

Why don't you get creative and make a word up that stands for "etcetera?"

I can't really think of a more creative word than 'etcetera', that's pretty creative to me.

[X-D]

Why would I want to do a thing like that? I don't speak an zalanthun languages and neither do you or anybody else who plays. Make up a word then have to explain it means? Come on.

[Marauder Moe]

None of us know if there is or is not a Sirihish or Mirukkim or allundean etc word for Dejavu or not, we can assume though, since there are other words and terms in other languages on this planet, it might indeed exist.

Why don't you get creative and make a word up that stands for "etcetera?"

I can't really think of a more creative word than 'etcetera', that's pretty creative to me.

Umm... how about just say "and so on"?

[NoteworthyFellow]

I'm going to be a jerk and repeat an argument that's already been used.

I'll use an example.  In the film Amadeus, we hear the characters speaking English.  Some of the operas are also in English, yet, for some reason, some are in Italian.  It took me a moment to figure out: they decided to be internally consistent.  The operas the audience hears in English were originally in German, because the English we hear is "translated" German that the characters would be speaking.  However, the characters don't speak Italian, and so we hear the Italian as, well, itself.

That's how Zalanthan languages are.  What we read when characters speak is English, because it's translated from Sirihish, Allundean, or whatever other languages our characters know.  When they don't know a language, we see a bunch of stuff we don't understand.

So, on to my point.  From my standpoint, at least, as long as the words a player uses are words often used in English (such as déja vu or et cetera), it's not going to stick out to me one bit.  Chances are, I won't even notice.  If I do, it's because it's done often, and then I'm just going to perceive the speech patterns as more "snobbish" or "cultured," which is something I'll figure is being done on purpose.  The only time it becomes jarring is when a player starts using foreign-language words that aren't commonly understood by English speakers, such as calling a pair of shoes "chaussures" or a pair of pants "Hosen."

[Marauder Moe]

Well, the thing is that it (this thread at least) isn't about words, it's about colloquialisms.  Slang and other sayings are a little bit more than just language: they touch on culture too.  Though certainly it's inevitable that Zalanthan cultures are contaminated by the native cultures of the Armageddon playerbase, we should try to minimize it.

In our culture, water is plentiful.  We're heavily influenced by rivers, lakes, and oceans.  Likewise, metal is very common and we're all very familiar with how it can be sharp, hard, cold, and so on.  We're also used to literacy.  We're vastly more educated in general.  We have a greater grasp of ethereal things like philosophy and psychology.  We have stronger expectations about justice.  We're used to much higher levels of cleanliness.  Monogamy is the standard.  We also have a lot of gender stereotyping.

All these things influence our language, in particular our colloquialisms.

One of the things we like so much about Armageddon is Zalanthan culture and its uniqueness.  As I said, language and culture are intertwined, and in order to play out the culture we should be mindful of our language.

[Eloran]

Why would I want to do a thing like that? I don't speak an zalanthun languages and neither do you or anybody else who plays. Make up a word then have to explain it means? Come on.

It's been done multiple times already:

Black

Barter stone

Large

Small

Robe

Fork-horn

Krath's Touch

Krath Struck

Six-foot

Kanker

Pit-Carru

Pit Dweller

...

These phrases were created to describe things in Zalanthas. It's a creative way to say:

'sid

'sid

A thousand 'sid

A hundred 'sid

And so on.

It didn't seem that difficult to create tribal/commoner Lexicon for Zalanthan terms. You're telling me it's too much work to do the same for words and phrases from another language?

[Taven]

Why would I want to do a thing like that? I don't speak an zalanthun languages and neither do you or anybody else who plays. Make up a word then have to explain it means? Come on.

It's been done multiple times already:

[stuff]

It didn't seem that difficult to create tribal/commoner Lexicon for Zalanthan terms. You're telling me it's too much work to do the same for words and phrases from another language?

I think the point is that where words are ingrained into speech, it's excessive to make a term for every little RL-Zalanthian differences. I don't think anyone is saying that no terms specificly for Zalanthas should EVER be made, just that TOO much gets silly and excessive. I like Zalanthian flavor terms, but I don't think we need to make a complex IG jargon for EVERY word. There's flavor, and then there's the silliness of having to explain every single "Zalanthian" term.

I think everyone agrees there needs to be a balance between the two; the thing differed on is where that "Balance" is. Ultimately, we can discuss it and try to change opinions, but creating one cannon everyone agrees with is near impossible.

[Eloran]

I think the point is that where words are ingrained into speech, it's excessive to make a term for every little RL-Zalanthian differences.

I never advocated this. I was responding to the aforementioned phrases listed previously. I stand by my reasoning.

I don't think anyone is saying that no terms specificly for Zalanthas should EVER be made, just that TOO much gets silly and excessive.

Where do you draw the line, then?

What's a good number for you?

I'm of the opinion that the more phrases we design and create ourselves, the more unique ArmageddonMUD becomes.

I like Zalanthian flavor terms, but I don't think we need to make a complex IG jargon for EVERY word.

Again, I never said that.

I think everyone agrees there needs to be a balance between the two; the thing differed on is where that "Balance" is. Ultimately, we can discuss it and try to change opinions, but creating one cannon everyone agrees with is near impossible.

Agreed.

[FantasyWriter]

Loanwords:
I think for the most part if a loan-word is in a decent dictionary of the English language and is understood to mean the same thing by 85%+ of people who speak/read/write in English, then it is okay [not necessarily encouraged, but okay] to use in a text based gamed which used the English language as a stage for other languages.  Especially if modern English doesn't have an equivalent.

Slang:
I think if the word has meant the same thing for 50+ years, is not "wrong" for Zalanathas (such as "cool"), and is understood to mean the same thing by 85%+ of people who speak/read/write in English, then it should be ok [not necessarily encouraged, but okay] to use in a text based game which uses the English language as a stage for other languages.



Also, If you disagree with someone on moot-points such as these, play the game the way you won't to play it and try not to chastise other players for the way they want to play it.
It is a game after all.

[Taven]

Stuff.

I think everyone agrees there needs to be a balance between the two; the thing differed on is where that "Balance" is. Ultimately, we can discuss it and try to change opinions, but creating one cannon everyone agrees with is near impossible.

Agreed.

In my opinion, your stance for what can/cannot be used seems a bit extreme. I do not literally think you are saying that there needs to be a Zalanthian equivalent for every RL term, but in my opinion you take it further then necessary.

I'm happy to agree to disagree with you on that point, as we seem to be degressing out of helpful discussion, and into simply arguing with little new points.

[Ourla]

Nobody can take my et cetera away.

[Ashes]

I think the real question that we should be asking ourselves when it comes to slang and borrowed words - can I say the same thing without borrowed words, but also without being unnecessarily long-winded?

"Et cetera" could easily be "so on," "on and on," "yeh get th'feckin' idear."

"Deja vu," on the other hand, would likely require a strange made-up term.  If you want to make one up, go for it.  If you don't, use it.  But don't put any speculations on whether or not other players should like it or not.  Keep in mind that we're all writing a story here.  There's a reason you don't see writers collaborating that often - styles tend to conflict.  Our styles are going to conflict.  It's a fact.  We don't have to get all superior about it because we don't agree with someone else's playing style.

[FantasyWriter]

I think the real question that we should be asking ourselves when it comes to slang and borrowed words - can I say the same thing without borrowed words, but also without being unnecessarily long-winded?

Agreed.

[RogueGunslinger]

"I feel like this has happened before."

[Rhyden]

"I feel like this has happened before."

deja vu = ? (Allundean term?)

Tricky. I don't know many other words that describe deja vu. You could say 'something I'd already seen', but deja vu has a better connotative feel to it, irl. I'm not sure how many other french-english words are used in Armageddon. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I bet there's one or two.

It has. Couldn't resist.

[RogueGunslinger]

 

[SMuz]

I just say "something about this feels familiar" for deja vu. I certainly won't use a made-up phrase for it, because it's tough enough to explain it to an English speaker.

Personally, I'd rather not see RL slang in the game. Or like, things that obviously don't exist in it. And I'd prefer things like "as heavy as a mek", rather than "as heavy as an elephant", or "krath-struck" instead of "link-dead" just because it's more fun. But I'm not going to the trouble of inventing an IC phrase for every loanword in the English dictionary.

Things like "coins" definitely have a lot of IC terms, "small", "large", "obsidian", "'sid", "black", just because they're fun to make words about, and everyone gets it when I say 100 black. But heck, I wouldn't mind if someone says "et cetera".

Taking something I read from another book..
English is a really messed up language. It borrows heavily from French, German, Italian, Latin, etc, etc. It was initially a rather crude language, with none of the beauty of the other languages. Heck, it still doesn't have the beauty of other languages. But what made it so popular was that it's easy to learn and a slight shift from the other more popular European languages.

Now your average fantasy "Common" language, like Sirihish, is a similar thing. In most RPGs, Common is a pidgin language, a crude mix of several other regional and racial languages and dialects. Sirihish would be widely spoken and picked up by c-elves, dwarves, and even both Tulukis and Allanakis. Chances are that it loans several words from other forgotten dialects, as well as foreign racial languages.

So... in conclusion, nothing wrong with using an English loanword

[Bluefae]

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

[Marauder Moe]

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

I don't think it's really going to be a flavor that exists in Zalanthas.  In English there isn't really a male equivalent of "ice queen" because men aren't derided for lacking empathy, being cold callous leaders, or turning down sexual advances.  In Zalanthas, women shouldn't be specifically derided for those things either.

[AmandaGreathouse]

hard-hearted bitch. (can be used for menfolks too!)

[Pale Horse]

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

hard-hearted bitch. (can be used for menfolks too!)

Closed cunt

Gotta plugged dick.

Sitting on a cactus.

As for the original topic, I'm on the side that says they don't want to see too many RL colloquial terms slipping into the game, as it's just that.  Colloquial.  Cultural.  I'd rather hear terms that come from Zalanthan culture, though I won't make a deal about hearing "deja vu" IG or other such things, unless it's really jarring, like hearing someone walk in and spout, "Wazzup, hommies!" (I've actually heard this IG).  It's wonderful to me, though sometimes I have to sit and think about what's being meant.  Real example:  I played long before the terms "small" and "large" came about.  I took a couple years break and had one hell of a time trying to figure out what someone was talking about when they kept referencing those things IG.  Loved it after figuring out what it meant, though.

On a side note, how do we feel about "Cool" as a term?  I've heard it pop up every now and then, and it seems like something that would parallel the RL meaning, the Known World being a desert and all.  We use "shade" after all.

[Delstro]

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

hard-hearted bitch. (can be used for menfolks too!)

Closed cunt

Gotta plugged dick.

Sitting on a cactus.

I thought it was a poem or something at first.

For Ice Queen, I'd call them an Anklebiter.

Fuckin' Anklebiter! Everytime I go around yuh yuh try to rip my heart out.

[Taven]

On a side note, how do we feel about "Cool" as a term?  I've heard it pop up every now and then, and it seems like something that would parallel the RL meaning, the Known World being a desert and all.  We use "shade" after all.

I personally think cool is fine, if used sparingly. I think it can be used too much, and almost think that for a more "Zalanthian" flavor it should have something added to it, although I'm not sure if it would immediately make obvious sense. "Cool as water", "wind-cool"?

"Yeh know wha' I'm sayin'? It was feckin' amazin', it was wind-cool!"

Ehhhh, maybe.

[SMuz]

ice queen = heart of obsidian?

[Taven]

ice queen = heart of obsidian?

Heart of 'Sid (and hence, obsidian) sounds more like "Heart of Gold" to me, but "stone hearted" would work.

[a strange shadow]

Ohhh, no, no! You'll never break this heart of stone!


.... what?

* a strange shadow wanders off, grooving.

[SMuz]

heart of gold = heart of copper, i think

'sid is sharp, hard, and I'd imagine very cold (compared to other things) in the shade. But then again, it is money.

Ohh.. how about heart of glass? Wait.. glass is harder than obsidian.. but worth more? I'm confused now.

[Bluefae]

     Thanks for the thoughtful responses, everyone.  One of the sticky areas of rp for me has always been language, and how it's used in the game via dialog.  Remaining authentic to the world while avoiding OOC confusion is sometimes a balancing act.

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

I don't think it's really going to be a flavor that exists in Zalanthas.  In English there isn't really a male equivalent of "ice queen" because men aren't derided for lacking empathy, being cold callous leaders, or turning down sexual advances.  In Zalanthas, women shouldn't be specifically derided for those things either.

     Spot on, and thank you for articulating this, Moe.  The character that was most likely to use this term would have been just as likely to say "ice king", but the context is impossible to tell from what I originally posted.  Truly, the gender-relations which exist in our shared fantasy land remain a unique feature of the world and a delight to delve into when done well. 
     As someone who has a long-standing love-affair with the English language (which occasionally degenerates into sullen silences  ), I'm constantly on the look-out for new and more precise ways of conveying my experience, or what I perceive another's experience to be.  Terms like what have been discussed in this thread have aspects to them that are both evocative and accessible to most players, and are of particular interest to me (and apparently to many others, as well).  One of the reasons I'll always be drawn back to Arm. is this shared sense of dedication to establishing and maintaining the game-world's themes and texture - if we didn't all care a lot about the game, we wouldn't be having these kinds of discussions at this level!   
     For example,

Just remember that if using them as part of a colloquialism, keep in mind that all types of metal carry a connotation of inherent value and rarity much greater than even the usage of "gold" does in our language.  Describing someone as having copper hair would be very flattering.

     is a very good point, and something I'm going to take back into the game with me.  Good stuff.

[Archbaron]

However, no matter how much we all think it is, Tuluk is not France.

<3

That aside, I think that using words like "double-entendre" and "deja vu" are fine because we are restricted to a text medium and if using other idioms and such from our culture is common, then so should these.