RL to Sirihish slang

[Taven]

WE, the PLAYERS don't speak Sirihish.

You are correct, we don't. However, our characters do. Try to imagine that the words your typing out aren't English in origin, but rather Sirihish, or Allundean, or Mirukkim.

I just don't see how something like "Deja Vu" is as different from using large, longer and more complex words in the game. It is effectively an English word, since we use it so much. I'd argue that it isn't slang, but DOES seem like something a more educated or sophisticated character would use, IF it was being used. I prefer to use other things, personally, but I don't think it's unreasonable to use it in game.

Uh... I've also made an IC reference to clouds (sorry, guys), completely lost a train of conversation due to the word "goosebumps" (sorry, other guys), and had a think/feel that went along the lines of:

You think:
"Let's cast this and see what fish you catch."

You feel that you love making up fantastical creatures for the sake of metaphor.

I don't think clouds is so bad, depending on how you used it. I could see "clouds of dust" just not the fluffy, poofy clouds that we see here on earth. Goosebumps also doesn't bother me, I think calling them <zalanthian creature>bumps would be far more jarring. Goosebumps are (to me, anyways!) just a word, it's not really about the geese.

The fish one, however, is an oops. Generally, if people mess up and I think they know it, I overlook it. If it's a newbie, then I'll try to make some IC reaction to it to show that it's not okay, but not really make a big deal out of it. If it's particularily jarring, and the player isn't that new, or they use it more then once, I might make a bigger IC deal out of it.

[X-D]

The only words that I think are bad are the ones that simply could not exist in Zalanthus.

Car, Television, Robot, toaster etc.

Other then that...the one who said "They speak the other language, we do not." Is correct...matter of fact, I've posted exactly that before on one of the older GDBs.

What you see on the screen is a translation to english from sirihish of what your PC hears. And what you type in gets translated to sirihish. None of us know if there is or is not a Sirihish or Mirukkim or allundean etc word for Dejavu or not, we can assume though, since there are other words and terms in other languages on this planet, it might indeed exist.

Oh, I remember where I posted this before, Somebody used asshat IG and somebody else had to bring it up on the GDB. Should Asshat be allowed...yes, because it is a translation of a term in whatever zalanthus language that means the same thing. True, it is prefered by many to use the rather nonsense zalanthus words because for them I guess it helps them play. I personaly hate many of the words because they either sound silly to me or I have to actually think about what they mean, which of course means lesser impact.

[Eloran]

None of us know if there is or is not a Sirihish or Mirukkim or allundean etc word for Dejavu or not, we can assume though, since there are other words and terms in other languages on this planet, it might indeed exist.

Why don't you get creative and make a word up that stands for "etcetera?"

[Malken]

None of us know if there is or is not a Sirihish or Mirukkim or allundean etc word for Dejavu or not, we can assume though, since there are other words and terms in other languages on this planet, it might indeed exist.

Why don't you get creative and make a word up that stands for "etcetera?"

I can't really think of a more creative word than 'etcetera', that's pretty creative to me.

[X-D]

Why would I want to do a thing like that? I don't speak an zalanthun languages and neither do you or anybody else who plays. Make up a word then have to explain it means? Come on.

[Marauder Moe]

None of us know if there is or is not a Sirihish or Mirukkim or allundean etc word for Dejavu or not, we can assume though, since there are other words and terms in other languages on this planet, it might indeed exist.

Why don't you get creative and make a word up that stands for "etcetera?"

I can't really think of a more creative word than 'etcetera', that's pretty creative to me.

Umm... how about just say "and so on"?

[NoteworthyFellow]

I'm going to be a jerk and repeat an argument that's already been used.

I'll use an example.  In the film Amadeus, we hear the characters speaking English.  Some of the operas are also in English, yet, for some reason, some are in Italian.  It took me a moment to figure out: they decided to be internally consistent.  The operas the audience hears in English were originally in German, because the English we hear is "translated" German that the characters would be speaking.  However, the characters don't speak Italian, and so we hear the Italian as, well, itself.

That's how Zalanthan languages are.  What we read when characters speak is English, because it's translated from Sirihish, Allundean, or whatever other languages our characters know.  When they don't know a language, we see a bunch of stuff we don't understand.

So, on to my point.  From my standpoint, at least, as long as the words a player uses are words often used in English (such as déja vu or et cetera), it's not going to stick out to me one bit.  Chances are, I won't even notice.  If I do, it's because it's done often, and then I'm just going to perceive the speech patterns as more "snobbish" or "cultured," which is something I'll figure is being done on purpose.  The only time it becomes jarring is when a player starts using foreign-language words that aren't commonly understood by English speakers, such as calling a pair of shoes "chaussures" or a pair of pants "Hosen."

[Marauder Moe]

Well, the thing is that it (this thread at least) isn't about words, it's about colloquialisms.  Slang and other sayings are a little bit more than just language: they touch on culture too.  Though certainly it's inevitable that Zalanthan cultures are contaminated by the native cultures of the Armageddon playerbase, we should try to minimize it.

In our culture, water is plentiful.  We're heavily influenced by rivers, lakes, and oceans.  Likewise, metal is very common and we're all very familiar with how it can be sharp, hard, cold, and so on.  We're also used to literacy.  We're vastly more educated in general.  We have a greater grasp of ethereal things like philosophy and psychology.  We have stronger expectations about justice.  We're used to much higher levels of cleanliness.  Monogamy is the standard.  We also have a lot of gender stereotyping.

All these things influence our language, in particular our colloquialisms.

One of the things we like so much about Armageddon is Zalanthan culture and its uniqueness.  As I said, language and culture are intertwined, and in order to play out the culture we should be mindful of our language.

[Eloran]

Why would I want to do a thing like that? I don't speak an zalanthun languages and neither do you or anybody else who plays. Make up a word then have to explain it means? Come on.

It's been done multiple times already:

Black

Barter stone

Large

Small

Robe

Fork-horn

Krath's Touch

Krath Struck

Six-foot

Kanker

Pit-Carru

Pit Dweller

...

These phrases were created to describe things in Zalanthas. It's a creative way to say:

'sid

'sid

A thousand 'sid

A hundred 'sid

And so on.

It didn't seem that difficult to create tribal/commoner Lexicon for Zalanthan terms. You're telling me it's too much work to do the same for words and phrases from another language?

[Taven]

Why would I want to do a thing like that? I don't speak an zalanthun languages and neither do you or anybody else who plays. Make up a word then have to explain it means? Come on.

It's been done multiple times already:

[stuff]

It didn't seem that difficult to create tribal/commoner Lexicon for Zalanthan terms. You're telling me it's too much work to do the same for words and phrases from another language?

I think the point is that where words are ingrained into speech, it's excessive to make a term for every little RL-Zalanthian differences. I don't think anyone is saying that no terms specificly for Zalanthas should EVER be made, just that TOO much gets silly and excessive. I like Zalanthian flavor terms, but I don't think we need to make a complex IG jargon for EVERY word. There's flavor, and then there's the silliness of having to explain every single "Zalanthian" term.

I think everyone agrees there needs to be a balance between the two; the thing differed on is where that "Balance" is. Ultimately, we can discuss it and try to change opinions, but creating one cannon everyone agrees with is near impossible.

[Eloran]

I think the point is that where words are ingrained into speech, it's excessive to make a term for every little RL-Zalanthian differences.

I never advocated this. I was responding to the aforementioned phrases listed previously. I stand by my reasoning.

I don't think anyone is saying that no terms specificly for Zalanthas should EVER be made, just that TOO much gets silly and excessive.

Where do you draw the line, then?

What's a good number for you?

I'm of the opinion that the more phrases we design and create ourselves, the more unique ArmageddonMUD becomes.

I like Zalanthian flavor terms, but I don't think we need to make a complex IG jargon for EVERY word.

Again, I never said that.

I think everyone agrees there needs to be a balance between the two; the thing differed on is where that "Balance" is. Ultimately, we can discuss it and try to change opinions, but creating one cannon everyone agrees with is near impossible.

Agreed.

[FantasyWriter]

Loanwords:
I think for the most part if a loan-word is in a decent dictionary of the English language and is understood to mean the same thing by 85%+ of people who speak/read/write in English, then it is okay [not necessarily encouraged, but okay] to use in a text based gamed which used the English language as a stage for other languages.  Especially if modern English doesn't have an equivalent.

Slang:
I think if the word has meant the same thing for 50+ years, is not "wrong" for Zalanathas (such as "cool"), and is understood to mean the same thing by 85%+ of people who speak/read/write in English, then it should be ok [not necessarily encouraged, but okay] to use in a text based game which uses the English language as a stage for other languages.



Also, If you disagree with someone on moot-points such as these, play the game the way you won't to play it and try not to chastise other players for the way they want to play it.
It is a game after all.

[Taven]

Stuff.

I think everyone agrees there needs to be a balance between the two; the thing differed on is where that "Balance" is. Ultimately, we can discuss it and try to change opinions, but creating one cannon everyone agrees with is near impossible.

Agreed.

In my opinion, your stance for what can/cannot be used seems a bit extreme. I do not literally think you are saying that there needs to be a Zalanthian equivalent for every RL term, but in my opinion you take it further then necessary.

I'm happy to agree to disagree with you on that point, as we seem to be degressing out of helpful discussion, and into simply arguing with little new points.

[Ourla]

Nobody can take my et cetera away.

[Ashes]

I think the real question that we should be asking ourselves when it comes to slang and borrowed words - can I say the same thing without borrowed words, but also without being unnecessarily long-winded?

"Et cetera" could easily be "so on," "on and on," "yeh get th'feckin' idear."

"Deja vu," on the other hand, would likely require a strange made-up term.  If you want to make one up, go for it.  If you don't, use it.  But don't put any speculations on whether or not other players should like it or not.  Keep in mind that we're all writing a story here.  There's a reason you don't see writers collaborating that often - styles tend to conflict.  Our styles are going to conflict.  It's a fact.  We don't have to get all superior about it because we don't agree with someone else's playing style.

[FantasyWriter]

I think the real question that we should be asking ourselves when it comes to slang and borrowed words - can I say the same thing without borrowed words, but also without being unnecessarily long-winded?

Agreed.

[RogueGunslinger]

"I feel like this has happened before."

[Rhyden]

"I feel like this has happened before."

deja vu = ? (Allundean term?)

Tricky. I don't know many other words that describe deja vu. You could say 'something I'd already seen', but deja vu has a better connotative feel to it, irl. I'm not sure how many other french-english words are used in Armageddon. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I bet there's one or two.

It has. Couldn't resist.

[RogueGunslinger]

 

[SMuz]

I just say "something about this feels familiar" for deja vu. I certainly won't use a made-up phrase for it, because it's tough enough to explain it to an English speaker.

Personally, I'd rather not see RL slang in the game. Or like, things that obviously don't exist in it. And I'd prefer things like "as heavy as a mek", rather than "as heavy as an elephant", or "krath-struck" instead of "link-dead" just because it's more fun. But I'm not going to the trouble of inventing an IC phrase for every loanword in the English dictionary.

Things like "coins" definitely have a lot of IC terms, "small", "large", "obsidian", "'sid", "black", just because they're fun to make words about, and everyone gets it when I say 100 black. But heck, I wouldn't mind if someone says "et cetera".

Taking something I read from another book..
English is a really messed up language. It borrows heavily from French, German, Italian, Latin, etc, etc. It was initially a rather crude language, with none of the beauty of the other languages. Heck, it still doesn't have the beauty of other languages. But what made it so popular was that it's easy to learn and a slight shift from the other more popular European languages.

Now your average fantasy "Common" language, like Sirihish, is a similar thing. In most RPGs, Common is a pidgin language, a crude mix of several other regional and racial languages and dialects. Sirihish would be widely spoken and picked up by c-elves, dwarves, and even both Tulukis and Allanakis. Chances are that it loans several words from other forgotten dialects, as well as foreign racial languages.

So... in conclusion, nothing wrong with using an English loanword

[Bluefae]

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

[Marauder Moe]

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

I don't think it's really going to be a flavor that exists in Zalanthas.  In English there isn't really a male equivalent of "ice queen" because men aren't derided for lacking empathy, being cold callous leaders, or turning down sexual advances.  In Zalanthas, women shouldn't be specifically derided for those things either.

[AmandaGreathouse]

hard-hearted bitch. (can be used for menfolks too!)

[Pale Horse]

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

hard-hearted bitch. (can be used for menfolks too!)

Closed cunt

Gotta plugged dick.

Sitting on a cactus.

As for the original topic, I'm on the side that says they don't want to see too many RL colloquial terms slipping into the game, as it's just that.  Colloquial.  Cultural.  I'd rather hear terms that come from Zalanthan culture, though I won't make a deal about hearing "deja vu" IG or other such things, unless it's really jarring, like hearing someone walk in and spout, "Wazzup, hommies!" (I've actually heard this IG).  It's wonderful to me, though sometimes I have to sit and think about what's being meant.  Real example:  I played long before the terms "small" and "large" came about.  I took a couple years break and had one hell of a time trying to figure out what someone was talking about when they kept referencing those things IG.  Loved it after figuring out what it meant, though.

On a side note, how do we feel about "Cool" as a term?  I've heard it pop up every now and then, and it seems like something that would parallel the RL meaning, the Known World being a desert and all.  We use "shade" after all.

[Delstro]

     Great thread, with a lot of good points raised on all sides.
     Even though I can't play currently (grr!), one that's baffled me in the past is "Ice Queen"?  As in, "Yeah, she's a real ice queen."  There's a certain flavor to the term that's different from simply proclaiming someone a 'tok or the like.  Any suggestions?

hard-hearted bitch. (can be used for menfolks too!)

Closed cunt

Gotta plugged dick.

Sitting on a cactus.

I thought it was a poem or something at first.

For Ice Queen, I'd call them an Anklebiter.

Fuckin' Anklebiter! Everytime I go around yuh yuh try to rip my heart out.