Steal is overpowered

[mansa]

What???

You're making me feel really stupid.

If the code doesn't differentiate a container that's worn or one on the ground how come you can steal from a pack on a person, but not the ground? And you can palm/slip from a pack on the ground, and on your person, but not on another person.

Hmm.

[Yam]

Container YOU wear = container on ground.

Container someone else wears =! container on ground.

You use steal to get something directly from someone else. You use palm to get something from a container that you own or that is unowned.

[RogueGunslinger]

Got it.

Thanks Yam.

[Yam]

My real name is Annie.

Annie Sullivan.

[RogueGunslinger]

LMAO, screw you Yam, screw you.

[Good Gortok]

I think the tugging echo occurs only if the thief doesn't have the steal skill. Meanwhile, if they do, not only does the target feel nothing, there's no echo to the room either, so you can undress a person without anyone noticing it. Some feat.

Soldiers standing in the room should react to anyone stealing something from a sleeping or unconscious person if the item in question could not be stolen while they were awake. Maybe you can somehow relieve a sleeping guy from his undies without him noticing, but certainly not so that bystanders won't.

Also, the weight limit on steal should apply to sleeping people as well, but not unconscious. You're just not going to steal a 25-stone breastplate strapped to a guy's torso with leather and bone clasps if he's merely asleep. If he has been knocked out, sure.

[Angela Christine]

Years ago I had my skirt stolen off my body while I was injured, sleeping, and being guarded by two guys.  No it wasn't the guys that did it, it was some filthy elves.     Back then there was no "tugging" message, and I'm not sure that being guarded actually did anything to protect you from theft, I think it only helped against attacks.

The embarrassing thing was that neither myself nor my two companions noticed that my skirt was gone.      I was walking around bare legged for more than an hour before I noticed, which left me in a very awkward position, RP wise.   ICly it would be asinine to suddenly notice that my skirt was gone, especially since no one around me had noticed yet.  Yet I had to replace it, since eventually someone was bound to notice I was naked between my belt and my boots (unless I was wearing virtual underwear or something, but I've never seen a firm ruling on the possible existence of virtual underwear.)  People might not notice right away, cloaks can be held closed after all, but sooner or later it would be noticed.  So I had to make an excuse to go off to the bazaar alone, to replace it. 

ICly I pretty much pretended it had never happened.  Which was wrong, because it had happened, and at least one other PC (the thief) knew it had happened.  But suddenly noticing the breeze in my pubes after walking around like that all day wouldn't make sense either.

My point, I guess, is that I wish that there was some notification when major pieces of clothing have gone missing.  You might not wake up when someone steals your boots, but as soon as you wake up you should notice that you are barefoot.  If the missing clothing doesn't affect stats you keep in your prompt, assuming that you keep stats in your prompt at all, it is surprisingly easy to "not notice" that you are half naked.

First, we'd need an Imm to confirm but I don't believe communal sleeping areas are equivlant to homeless shelters.  Why? Because I've always assumed that the -majority- of commoners use them.  After all, to be a merchant and afford a place or to be in an organization which has a dorm room is such a luxury.  

I disagree.

I've always assumed that the vast majority of commoners live in some kind of home, mostly crowded tenements, but shanties are possible too.  Yes, the rent on even a crappy apartment is high enough to make a private room a luxury.  However, it is unlikely that very many of those apartments are occupied by just one person, most of them would be occupied by a family.  There could be a dozen people, including several adults, sharing an apartment that a PC would live in alone. 

Granny stays home with the children too large to be carried on their mother's back, but too small to have a job or to wander the streets alone (most of these kids would be aged 2 to 5 or so).  If there is a cooking facility in or near the apartment then she does most of the cooking for the family, and does some valuable crafting with the help of the kids.  She may not do as much financially for the family as the younger adults, but having her take care of the littles frees them up for work, and besides she doesn't eat as much as a younger adult either.  The other adults and older children are rarely all home at the same time, their work has them coming and going at all hours, which is just as well because there isn't really room for a dozen people to sleep in there at the same time.  Depending on the needs of their work, some sleep at night and some sleep during the heat of the day.  The home is almost never completely empty, there will nearly always be someone home, sleeping, eating, or watching the children.  The fact that the room is never empty explains why thieves don't break in and steal their filthy blankets, crappy dishes or primitive decorations.  They don't need good locks because screaming kids make an excellent burglar alarm -- they may not be strong enough to physically stop a thief, but they are loud enough to alert the authorities. 

I imagine that most of the people sleeping in the dorms are people who are temporarily down on their luck, small groups of traders from out of town, people who got too drunk to walk home, people who don't want to go home to their crowded tenement for one reason or another, and various other people who need temporary accommodations.  Letting diseased beggars permanently set up housekeeping in your dorm just doesn't make sense.

Honestly, there isn't enough information in game to be sure either way.  There aren't any easily accessible homes with a half a dozen NPCs inside demonstrating what normal family life looks like.  On the other hand, there is no evidence that people are raising families inside the public dorms either.  There are (or were, before recent famines) a million people in Allanak.  Half of those are slaves.  House family members, scummy rinth dwellers, and beggars who sleep in the street might account for as much as another 100 000 people, leaving 400 000 "typical" commoners.  Likely at least 100 000 of those commoners are children under 13 (pre-PC age).  The Gaj is the largest and most popular public dorm that PCs have access to, and there is no sign that hundreds, much less thousands, of people are sleeping there at any one time -- or even that there is room for hundreds to sleep there.

Even if your family has an apartment, clan dorms are still a good perk.  A real bed that you get all to yourself?  Possibly even an assigned bed that is all yours for as long as you are with the clan and that no one else sleeps in even when you aren't using it?  Heaven.  Anyone who thinks that having your own bed isn't a fantastic perk has never had to sleep 4 to a bed.  (I've only done it at crowded family reunions, but when my mom was little, she often shared a bed with 2-4 other kids.  It used to be pretty common).  A trunk that you don't have to share with anyone, where you can keep your private stuff and you don't have to worry about lots of other people pawing though it or playing with it while you are off at work?  Pretty damned sweet.  And since most clan dorms have no indications that the children (or other dependents)  of employees are living there, it is pretty likely that even some people with a good job that includes a sleeping dorm may also contribute to a household in the commons, even if they only go there on weekends.

[Incognito]

While we're at it, I thought I might just mention here that - there IS a difference between sleeping/resting in public places, and PCs who go outdoors, get half-beaten to death, come back leaving a trail of blood and then sleep purely to regen.

If I see a PC who's in terrible condition, and sleeping in a public place, I'll steal all his clothes and possibly shave some of his hair off too, coz obviously I know he's in no position to wake up and defend himself, or even wake up and protest, period.

[brytta.leofa]

My point, I guess, is that I wish that there was some notification when major pieces of clothing have gone missing.  You might not wake up when someone steals your boots, but as soon as you wake up you should notice that you are barefoot.

<worn on body>   (nothing)
<worn on legs>   (nothing)
<worn on feet>   (nothing)

[UnderSeven]

While we're at it, I thought I might just mention here that - there IS a difference between sleeping/resting in public places, and PCs who go outdoors, get half-beaten to death, come back leaving a trail of blood and then sleep purely to regen.

If I see a PC who's in terrible condition, and sleeping in a public place, I'll steal all his clothes and possibly shave some of his hair off too, coz obviously I know he's in no position to wake up and defend himself, or even wake up and protest, period.

I think this is a really good point.  Arguably sleeping, which is generally only used to get back above regen could be considered something entirely differet than what most of us view as sleeping.  This makes me feel a little better about the whole thing.

[DustMight]

> ep club
> rest
> change ldesc is sleeping here.
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
...

Though I've heard of abuse of code wherein someone changes their ldesc to indicate they are sleeping while in reality they are standing in the middle of the room, this is an excellent use of the code tools.  Nicely done.

[Tisiphone]

I'm pretty sure you actually can't change your ldesc to mimick coded stances.

[brytta.leofa]

I'm pretty sure you actually can't change your ldesc to mimick coded stances.

for(char **p = LDESC_RESERVED; p; p++)
  if (!strcmp(ldesc, *p))
    ch->karma = ch->karma ? ch->karma-1 : 0;

[musashi]

I'm pretty sure you actually can't change your ldesc to mimick coded stances.

for(char **p = LDESC_RESERVED; p; p++)
  if (!strcmp(ldesc, *p))
    ch->karma = ch->karma ? ch->karma-1 : 0;

[SMuz]

My point, I guess, is that I wish that there was some notification when major pieces of clothing have gone missing.  You might not wake up when someone steals your boots, but as soon as you wake up you should notice that you are barefoot.

<worn on body>   (nothing)
<worn on legs>   (nothing)
<worn on feet>   (nothing)

Heh, I'd prefer it if it was also applied to when you look at others.

> look (hot chick passed out at the Tembo)

<worn on legs> (nothing)

[Morgenes]

What???

You're making me feel really stupid.

If the code doesn't differentiate a container that's worn or one on the ground how come you can steal from a pack on a person, but not the ground? And you can palm/slip from a pack on the ground, and on your person, but not on another person.

The code does differentiate between items that are attended (actively worn) and those that aren't.

The steal skill involves taking and putting things on someone who is actively wearing or using the item.  So, the backpack worn by someone is attended by that person, and so taking from or putting things in the backpack without them noticing is a skill. 

The sleight of hand skill involves taking and putting things from containers that aren't actively worn by anyone.  So the backpack sitting in the room isn't attended by anyone, and so taking from or putting things in the backpack is a different, but related skill.

Therefore you use steal/plant when dealing with an attended object, and slip/palm when the item is not attended, but your action could be seen.

[musashi]

By that logic, should we then if we want to RP setting our backpack down by our feet at the bar, just leave it in our inventory and emote that it's at our feet? So that we're codedly "attending" it?

[RogueGunslinger]

I do that anyways. Same for removing a helmet and setting it on the bar.

[Tisiphone]

By that logic, should we then if we want to RP setting our backpack down by our feet at the bar, just leave it in our inventory and emote that it's at our feet? So that we're codedly "attending" it?

Very much so. At least, that's what I do. After all, inventory is virtual space for tended objects. You don't have to be holding them specifically; those items go in ep and es.

[DustMight]

I do that anyways. Same for removing a helmet and setting it on the bar.

I do this as well.

[DustMight]

I'm pretty sure you actually can't change your ldesc to mimick coded stances.

for(char **p = LDESC_RESERVED; p; p++)
  if (!strcmp(ldesc, *p))
    ch->karma = ch->karma ? ch->karma-1 : 0;

You are guessing.  And, this is not true, though funny.