Steal is overpowered

[audrey]

Ok, fine. Your guy is a master thief. Someone in the tavern leaves his backpack unguarded.. poof, you take it. Maybe you could even take my helm off while I'm talking to someone.

But that doesn't mean you could fricking steal all my clothes when I'm asleep! I mean, c'mon! Unless I'm practically dead, I should notice when someone's taking off my clothes while I'm asleep!

This doesn't mean I don't like steal being powerful.. but the [edited by Nyr] shouldn't be able steal all my clothes whenever I take a short nap. At least not without a good chance of waking me.

I'd just like it to be a lot harder for someone to steal things I'm wearing while I'm sleeping. Especially the [edited by Nyr].

[Synthesis]

Send a player complaint using the request tool.

Include a log of the event, so they know where to search the runlogs.

If you were actually 'asleep,' and someone took -all- your clothes...that's pretty clearly abuse of code.  I've heard of people losing the pickpocket/burglar class options for crap like that.

[Ammut]

I think that people shouldn't have to wake up every 20 seconds or so to make sure their stuff hasn't been swiped.  I know when I first started playing this game I had all my stuff stolen while I was asleep in the Gaj's dormitory.  It was a real pain in the ass and I soon after lost interest in trying to get back on my feet, as all my coin was in my pack.  I soon learned never to sleep in public areas.

There should be a saving throw that will wake you up when someone tugs at something like your shirt or pants, but when it comes to a cap or boots I don't think so.  If you're holding a bag, that too would be an easy target, but slipping a backpack off someone's shoulders? Perhaps if they are heavy sleepers.

[Fathi]

Unless I'm mistaken, there IS an echo when somebody does this, thus giving you a chance to have your PC wake up and notice they're being stolen from.

[audrey]

How do I report it if a NPC does it? [edited by Nyr]

I shouldn't have to wake up every few minutes to make sure that someone didn't steal my clothes. Even if they did, it'd be too late. I think the code should be nerfed, if only to stuff worn on the body and legs and around the body (aba). Wrist, ankles, hand, head, back, feet, neck.. all those are more than valid when you're asleep.

Yeah, you're right, there was an echo: You feel a faint tugging.

But it's mostly when someone tries to rob you when you're unconscious. Doesn't help much if the thief has uber-high skills.

[Gunnerblaster]

Sorry to rain on your parade, darlin', but anyone - even those without the steal code - and nick your clothes right off of you when you sleep.

And what the hell are you doing, sleeping out in public? Your just -begging- to get your shit nicked.

[FightClub]

Sorry to rain on your parade, darlin', but anyone - even those without the steal code - and nick your clothes right off of you when you sleep.

This is very true.  Although I would suggest following the above, reporting the player for abuse.  Problem is, you don't know it it was one player, or twenty, taking advantage of you.  Like a corpse in the street, twinks come by and take everything, good rpers take one or two items, and continue on, you might've been subject to either or, the first is subject to punishment, the second, well, you can't really say much about that.

[Searanox]

Obviously she could tell by the spaces between the echo's she's gotten if one or multiple people stole her shit, but that doesn't matter.

The issue here is, that to steal all of her items she would have to notice the echo multiple times. And if you notice that echo why wouldn't you wake your PC up?

Only answer I can think of is she was passed out due to way, or slept with her stam too low, or was sapped/knocked out. Ad if this is the case, it's perfectly reasonable for her not to wake up when multiple items are being stripped off of her.

There's no need for a code change.

[Gunnerblaster]

Well, you would be able to tell it was me if you recieved this.

Code Select Expand

>somebody says in sirishish, out-of-character:
     "Do you consent?"



I kid, I kid... Or do I?

[Nyr]

I edited some of the more IC information in a couple of posts here.  (Such as where something was stolen, what was stolen, and what happened afterwards.)

Don't do that, please.

[My 2 sids]

And what the hell are you doing, sleeping out in public? Your just -begging- to get your shit nicked.

Yet another small thing which should be told to new players.  I mean, we preach realism, the room shows "sleeping quarters", we cannot fault new players for falling into this trap.   Just like how many don't explain how to -safely- build up the Way skill.

[Yam]

Stealing everything off of a sleeping/passed-out-drunk/otherwise unconscious person is not abuse in any way, shape, or form.

[musashi]

Stealing everything off of a sleeping/passed-out-drunk/otherwise unconscious person is not abuse in any way, shape, or form.

If the person RP'ed out doing it ... I'd agree. Though heh ... I think it is  just a bit in poor taste; esp to a new player.

[Yam]

Stealing everything off of a sleeping/passed-out-drunk/otherwise unconscious person is not abuse in any way, shape, or form.

If the person RP'ed out doing it ... I'd agree. Though heh ... I think it is  just a bit in poor taste; esp to a new player.

No, I'm pretty sure it fosters a good atmosphere.

[UnderSeven]

I will admit it did always kind of bug me that if a PC ever dared to sleep in a communal sleeping area they would literally be robbed blind.  I mean if everyone who ever slept in a communal area ended up robbed naked then no one would sleep in them and there wouldn't be any.  Account for vnps that would be sleeping there and not getting robbed, it always bugged me that unless a pc was guarded by another pc, the chances they would wake up with nothing on them is high.  Yeah, I'm not exactly saying stealing is over powered, I'm just pointing out.  This bugs me.

[Yam]

I will admit it did always kind of bug me that if a PC ever dared to sleep in a communal sleeping area they would literally be robbed blind.  I mean if everyone who ever slept in a communal area ended up robbed naked then no one would sleep in them and there wouldn't be any.  Account for vnps that would be sleeping there and not getting robbed, it always bugged me that unless a pc was guarded by another pc, the chances they would wake up with nothing on them is high.  Yeah, I'm not exactly saying stealing is over powered, I'm just pointing out.  This bugs me.

There is now an echo that says, "you feel a faint tug" or something to that effect.

[UnderSeven]

Does the tug echo occur before the stealing finishes (IE: at the start of the delay) or after the stealing is successful.  Cause if it is after the stealing is successful, this addition is not really going to cut it in making communal sleeping areas very realistic.  Pcs might still find their backpacks stolen at the very least which would in turn still make communal sleeping quarters kind of moot imo. 

[Yam]

Does the tug echo occur before the stealing finishes (IE: at the start of the delay) or after the stealing is successful.  Cause if it is after the stealing is successful, this addition is not really going to cut it in making communal sleeping areas very realistic.  Pcs might still find their backpacks stolen at the very least which would in turn still make communal sleeping quarters kind of moot imo. 

People probably shouldn't sleep in communal sleeping quarters if they have lots of money or expensive clothing/jewelry/equipment.

[Ourla]

I will admit it did always kind of bug me that if a PC ever dared to sleep in a communal sleeping area they would literally be robbed blind.  I mean if everyone who ever slept in a communal area ended up robbed naked then no one would sleep in them and there wouldn't be any.

[UnderSeven]

Does the tug echo occur before the stealing finishes (IE: at the start of the delay) or after the stealing is successful.  Cause if it is after the stealing is successful, this addition is not really going to cut it in making communal sleeping areas very realistic.  Pcs might still find their backpacks stolen at the very least which would in turn still make communal sleeping quarters kind of moot imo. 

People probably shouldn't sleep in communal sleeping quarters if they have lots of money or expensive clothing/jewelry/equipment.

I concur.  I think of it similar to say a homeless shelter.  You wouldn't sleep in one of those with a lot of gold jewelry.  Even an ipod might be pushing it.  BUT, because the nature of Armageddon if you have a pack there is no telling what is inside of it.  Similarly in a homeless shelter you might get shaken down for what might be in your wallet, however, in the real life instance you might wake up from the touch when they start shaking you down and then wake up in time to stop it, where as if the code waits until steal is successful then you're essentially just as helpless as before.  You can type WAKE but your item is gone, and most likely, the offending pc knowing the code, will also be gone.

The point I'm trying to make is if you have something expensive or not, if the code allows the theft to complete before notifying you then the pc is still not going to sleep there because they're still going to get robbed.  Sure this code prevents you from being robbed naked, but it will still allow you to get robbed and instead of losing everything, now you just lose your most valuable thing or just a backpack.  The end result as I see it is still the same.  Pcs will virtually never use communal sleeping places which are almost all described as having a lot of vnpcs already sleeping there.  If pcs can't sleep there because they will get robbed, are we to assume these vnpcs literally have nothing on them at all worth taking?  Not even a single sid piece? 

My point isn't that steal is overpowered.  It is that the functionality of the game doesn't currently fit the world.  If you tried to argue Armageddon was a desert world, but then had a fountain of infinate water anyone could get all they wanted to from for free all over the place then you might question the ic description of the world vs the reality of the situation.  My example maybe extreme but it's kind of the same thing.

[Yam]

Does the tug echo occur before the stealing finishes (IE: at the start of the delay) or after the stealing is successful.  Cause if it is after the stealing is successful, this addition is not really going to cut it in making communal sleeping areas very realistic.  Pcs might still find their backpacks stolen at the very least which would in turn still make communal sleeping quarters kind of moot imo. 

People probably shouldn't sleep in communal sleeping quarters if they have lots of money or expensive clothing/jewelry/equipment.

I concur.  I think of it similar to say a homeless shelter.  You wouldn't sleep in one of those with a lot of gold jewelry.  Even an ipod might be pushing it.  BUT, because the nature of Armageddon if you have a pack there is no telling what is inside of it.  Similarly in a homeless shelter you might get shaken down for what might be in your wallet, however, in the real life instance you might wake up from the touch when they start shaking you down and then wake up in time to stop it, where as if the code waits until steal is successful then you're essentially just as helpless as before.  You can type WAKE but your item is gone, and most likely, the offending pc knowing the code, will also be gone.

The point I'm trying to make is if you have something expensive or not, if the code allows the theft to complete before notifying you then the pc is still not going to sleep there because they're still going to get robbed.  Sure this code prevents you from being robbed naked, but it will still allow you to get robbed and instead of losing everything, now you just lose your most valuable thing or just a backpack.  The end result as I see it is still the same.  Pcs will virtually never use communal sleeping places which are almost all described as having a lot of vnpcs already sleeping there.  If pcs can't sleep there because they will get robbed, are we to assume these vnpcs literally have nothing on them at all worth taking?  Not even a single sid piece? 

My point isn't that steal is overpowered.  It is that the functionality of the game doesn't currently fit the world.  If you tried to argue Armageddon was a desert world, but then had a fountain of infinate water anyone could get all they wanted to from for free all over the place then you might question the ic description of the world vs the reality of the situation.  My example maybe extreme but it's kind of the same thing.

Yeah. Pretty much.

[My 2 sids]

First, we'd need an Imm to confirm but I don't believe communal sleeping areas are equivlant to homeless shelters.  Why? Because I've always assumed that the -majority- of commoners use them.  After all, to be a merchant and afford a place or to be in an organization which has a dorm room is such a luxury.   So, ICly, I don't think it'd be like trying to walk through the 'rinith with a bunch of nice stuff (as in NPCs/VNPCs/etc don't insta-notice)

Second, stealing is stealing.  The lack of a crime-flag doesn't mean taking someone's stuff is legal -- it means you wern't caught.  I mean, if some mugger sucessfully knocked someone out and then took thier stuff it's still stealing.  Isn't it?  ICly, I'd view it kind of like speeding -- yeah, it happens and for the most part you can get away with it; but it's still illegal.   Further, there should be a social stigma -- kind of like the type of PC who would stoop to taking from the dead.  

[Pantoufle]

All too often thieves get a bad rap when the real consideration needs to be placed more heavily on the thief victims.  Naturally nobody wants their character to have their loot robbed or have their character killed.  We generally take great pains to avoid these things while playing and when it does the IC frustration of the event often transcends to our OOC selves.  Which of course is totally legit.  But one still has to consider the big picture.

Every skill has the potential to be abused.  If someone has abused it the fault is on them, not the skill itself.

Thieves, while seemingly all powerful when it comes to acquiring goods, actually have a harder time than you may realize while stealing from PCs.  Close your backpack and you have just made yourself 100% steal proof.  Yet when do you hear posters complaining that this is unfair?  In the real world a bona fide pickpocket probably nabs things from closed containers as frequently as from an open one.  Yet this can't be done in the game.  Is that fair?  Is the level of that unfairness greater to or equal to the unfairness of being stolen from while sleeping?  Just a thought.

I'm not sure about the stealing while asleep issue, I thought it was newly coded for there to be a chance at failure, which then informs the victim in their sleep.  I could be wrong.  I suppose what I'm saying is that while I agree it shouldn't be possible to steal anything and everything from a sleeping victim, the issue is with a) the people abusing said ability and b) that specific aspect of the code.  To say steal is overpowered is only going to support the misperception so many players have that thieves are way overpowered when, on the contrary, thief-victims are the ones obscenely overpowered (close your backpack and - voila - 100% success-rate thief repellant).

[Yokunama]

Unless I'm mistaken, there IS an echo when somebody does this, thus giving you a chance to have your PC wake up and notice they're being stolen from.

It'd be better if there was a chance players woke up automatically like they sometimes do when someone attacks them. And if you are knocked out by a club or the fifth bottle of flame, you won't wake up if someone decides to panty raid you.

Things you should have difficulty taking are pants, shirts, and maybe backpacks. Things like earrings, necklaces, and whathave you are all fair game.

[brytta.leofa]

> ep club
> rest
> change ldesc is sleeping here.
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
...

[UnderSeven]

Unless I'm mistaken, there IS an echo when somebody does this, thus giving you a chance to have your PC wake up and notice they're being stolen from.

It'd be better if there was a chance players woke up automatically like they sometimes do when someone attacks them. And if you are knocked out by a club or the fifth bottle of flame, you won't wake up if someone decides to panty raid you.

Things you should have difficulty taking are pants, shirts, and maybe backpacks. Things like earrings, necklaces, and whathave you are all fair game.

Personally I think the echo is best, that means the theft is still likely to occur and be successful.  Even if the echo is placed at the start of the steal delay, the delay isn't very long and only a pc really ready to wake up would have a chance of waking up in time. 

That being said, I disagere with the majority of the npc populace having nothing.  We're assuming that most people sleep in the communal areas.  This is more or less how the world is (in my view) written to be.  Maybe houses that employ laborers to dig for clay give them a special sleeping place for all their laborers, doesn't matter.. My point.  These people probably have slightly more than the clothes on their back.  They probably have that clay pot their brother gave them that they can sometimes cook out of, or those sandals which are kind of nice, or maybe one or two has a decent dagger.  And since we've already established they don't have the money for appartments, they therefore must be assumed to keep these things on them at all times.  Now lets look at the VNPC population.  If they are all really poor and don't have much (like hardly even a single sid) than these little trinkets they do have, including, but not limited to the VERY CLOTHES ON THEIR BACKS, would be in relative terms worth quite a bit.  So maybe the vnpc doesn't have the awesome sword made out of silt horror shell, but that shirt they are wearing that a pc wouldn't be caught dead in, is actually worth a lot - to a vnpc. 

Now lets get back to the code.  A pc can, any pc, potentally steal and while a echo will alert them to say the shirt off their back or a backpack being taken, if the echo happens after the theft is sucessful, essentially the pc is just as helpless to losing one really nice item.  The Vnpc is thus equally as vulnerable and therefore the sleeping places become moot because the vnpc, like the pc, is going to look at those situations and find them completely unacceptable. 

Now you might argue, but the vnpcs have no choice, they can sleep in a communal area or not at all.  To which I might argue lets look at what pcs would do if they were forced to sleep there and then shape the world around that.  In this particular case I assume pcs would probably have friends and family watch over each other while sleeping to ensure that theft wasn't occuring.  This actually makes a lot of sense to me, that way you could say Vnpcs are in groups and that's why they're not being robbed, where as the odd pc isn't in a group and therefore is being robbed.

As stated, I'm not complaining about the steal code, I'm complaining about the way the world is described vs the reality.  I would literally be satisfied if these rooms were simply described better, to make it seem as if vritually no one sleeps alone, except the truly desperate or unloved or wretchedly poor. 

[Malifaxis]

Nah, steal is not over powered.  You know what's fucking overpowered?

Me.

And the warrior I'm going to start so I can forcibly knock the whole mud out, one at a time, in order to steal everyone's damn clothes.

Have you ever gone to sleep?  I have.  I know, from experience, that people can take shit off of me (or even put shit on!) while I am sleeping.  

Maybe I'm not you.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm not.  Unless the buddists are right and we are all one and the river of life flows out my third eye.  But until a scientist (ghost?  can you stop floating around and babbling about dicks long enough to..) proves this one, I'm going to go with the idea that you aren't me.

What I'm getting at here is that I'm a high level CIA agent who was trained by a ninja monastery in downtown Tibet (on Broadway and 3rd) while begin taught how to steal by my gypsy godmother (who was a werewolf) and training for 20 hours a day in how to drink dead vikings under the table, and I can still get shit stolen off of me while I sleep.  The shit I refer to is my underwear, and the thief I am referring to is spawnloser.  I think he has pictures of him doing this somewhere, but I'm relatively certain that if he posts them, I will be forced to retaliate with pictures of new years 2003 when he was dead drunk in a blue bathroom hunched over a toilet with his head half in like he was trying for a realistic recreation of the suppository scene from Trainspotting.  So most likely he won't post them, and you'll just have to trust me.

Fucking steal is fucking over powered.  Give me a fucking break.

[Iota]

> ep club
> rest
> change ldesc is sleeping here.
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
...

This just made me realize that the "hug" social can probably be abused to determine whether a person is really codedly sleeping or not.

Code Select Expand


>hug chubby

The chubby dude is not in the proper position for that.



[UnderSeven]

> ep club
> rest
> change ldesc is sleeping here.
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
...

Hug is overpowered.

Please nerf hug.

This just made me realize that the "hug" social can probably be abused to determine whether a person is really codedly sleeping or not.

Code Select Expand


>hug chubby

The chubby dude is not in the proper position for that.



[brytta.leofa]

This just made me realize that the "hug" social can probably be abused to determine whether a person is really codedly sleeping or not.

So can the steal command.

[Iota]

I concur with UnderSeven: a hug nerf is totally in order.

[Jingo]

There needs to be more risk when stealing from the dorm areas I think. I think there should be guards in the area you can pay twenty 'sid or so to watch your back.

[Zharal]

I personally belive the steal command is just fine.. yea so ya lost your cloths.. we all do at some point.  Yea its a bit unrealistic but in truth dont fall asleep in a place where your pack and such can be taken from you.  I personally make it a rule not to take your general clothing, but your pack and your belt you can be damn sure is gonna be a gonner.. just the way it is... see ya sleeping soon..

[Ampere]

Common areas are packed with vnpcs, and usually an npc soldier or two.  Stealing clothes off people sleeping in common areas is, to put it mildly, poor form.  If you do this, it is an abuse of the code, and you ARE a twink.

Trinkets = Fine.
Boots = Funny.
Clothes = TWINK.

[Tisiphone]

Alternatively, vNPC drunks get robbed naked out of the Gaj dorms all the time, and the soldiers just don't care unless you make a ruckus. Allanak isn't a nice place, just like the rest of the Known; who's to say that the majority of the vNPCs ARE safe? No; the only ones who sleep there are those who either are so drunk they can't care anymore, or don't have anything to lose. If you sleep in the Gaj, you deserve what's coming to you, as does everyone else: PC, NPC, or vNPC.

[Searanox]

You think someone would give two shits if they saw you take someone else s pack? I'm of the belief that there are -no- vNPC guards, considering we have 50,000,000 roaming the streets, in the bars, and in any log-out area already.

Like I said, if you have time to strip all of the clothes of someone, they either -can't- wake up, or they are away from their PC.

Who in their right mind would see:

You feel a faint tugging....

You feel a faint tugging...

You feel a faint tugging...

You feel a faint tugging...

>think: Lackidaisical flowers made of colored metal spin around you in bright colors, as you conscious bring to surface that you're in love with The Ivory skinned, lock-tressed lass...

You dream:Lackidaisical flowers made of colored metal spin around you in bright colors, as you unconsciously bring to surface that you're in love with The Ivory skinned, lock-tressed lass...

You feel a faint tugging...

You feel a faint tugging...

and not >wake???


Did you all forget about the "we need more pickpockets, thiefs, and muggers"?

[Lakota]

Here we go again.

Next thread: Too many half-elves!

Thread after that: Why I hate magickers.

[Tlaloc]

> ep club
> rest
> change ldesc is sleeping here.
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
...

> trap pack
> !
> !
> !
> !
> sleep
> You lie down and go to sleep.
> em snores loudly, ~backpack looking tantalizingly stealable.

[Malifaxis]

Here we go again.

Next thread: Too many half-elves!

Thread after that: Why I hate magickers.

Heh.

[staggerlee]

It'd be nice if people used some discretion and roleplayed, considering the logistics of their actions and the virtual environment. (Not just justifying what they want to do.)

Unfortunately it's somewhat up to the staff to police.  If they police it (and they may already) then such behaviour will be discouraged and decrease, if they don't then the code wins and such behaviour will continue unthwarted.

As such:

Step 1) Put in a player complaint to make sure the staff know what happened.
Step 2) Proceed to assume that everything is working as intended, and roleplay accordingly.

[mansa]

Personally, I've never experienced the tugging message, and I've had my stuff stolen from me recently.

[Ampere]

Alternatively, vNPC drunks get robbed naked out of the Gaj dorms all the time, and the soldiers just don't care unless you make a ruckus. Allanak isn't a nice place, just like the rest of the Known; who's to say that the majority of the vNPCs ARE safe? No; the only ones who sleep there are those who either are so drunk they can't care anymore, or don't have anything to lose. If you sleep in the Gaj, you deserve what's coming to you, as does everyone else: PC, NPC, or vNPC.

Listen, I'm not talking about getting robbed.  I'm talking about a single thief, taking everything.  While it's true, if someone's smashed, you could probably strip them down to their skivvies; it doesn't mean nobody would notice. To pretend that a room of vnpcs would be entirely apathetic to someone getting rolled by a single thief, out in the open, and under the watchful gaze of His Will, is absurdly unrealistic.  Police states love nothing more than than to ignore breaches in their law; it's how they maintain that iron grip.

[Malifaxis]

Entertainment is expensive in Allanak.  Every time you go to the Arena, you risk being thrown in yourself if you look at the wrong person in a way they don't approve of.

To me, this is cheap entertainment, and I, for one, would stand there laughing at your drunk, unconcious ass, as you were prep'd for sunburn.

[Searanox]

I'm going to have to get an avatar before people start reading my posts, aren't I?

Personally, I've never experienced the tugging message, and I've had my stuff stolen from me recently.

Possibly a bug, I haven't been stolen from while sleeping if 5+ months, but I certainly got the message. Maybe it has to do you being passed out or drunk? Maybe you don't see the echo then?

[Qzzrbl]

There should be a longer delays and more echoes for removing a sleeper's worn clothing and packs.

Three seconds and "got it!". That just doesn't take into consideation that you have to roll the fucker over so you can better slip his pack off, or wrestle with his belt as you unbind his pants or unlace his boots.

[Jingo]

Immortals are overpowered.

Sure mages and dwaves with insane strength can instakill you. And pickpockets can strip you naked in your sleep and Desert Elves are so badass it's not funny.

But none of them can give you bad account notes.

srsly nerf imms

[Chettaman]

srsly nerf imms

For real?

Not gonna lie... whenever I'm hangin' out with an IG friend in my apartment, I often steal things they're cooking or strip them while they're sleeping and hide they're things. But I usually get them back. Is that good roleplay?

[Jingo]

For Realz.

I'm being facetous. I do honestly appreciate the time the imms put into giving me account notes. Even the negative ones.

[jstorrie]

Possibility: when stealing from a sleeping person, there could be a check against your steal skill to see if you can pull it off without waking your target. Penalize this check if you're trying to steal something they have equipped, since you would have to unstrap it or otherwise pull it off of them. Failure wakes the target up.

[Chettaman]

I'm being facetous. I do honestly appreciate the time the imms put into giving me account notes. Even the negative ones.

Oh.

I've gotten the "you feel a tug on your clothing." Message, twice while sleeping in the Gaj. It might just be a message you get after being thief-ed by an NPC

[Dar]

if I understand correctly, and I might be off. You 'always' get the tagging echo if something bulky gets taken. Most 'definately' a pack. Prolly pants/torso cloth too. Now ... if your stamina is too low, and you cant wake up even though you feel being stolen from, then ... well, it's on you . You're too damn exhausted to notice being rolled over like a rag doll.

[Yokunama]

if I understand correctly, and I might be off. You 'always' get the tagging echo if something bulky gets taken. Most 'definately' a pack. Prolly pants/torso cloth too. Now ... if your stamina is too low, and you cant wake up even though you feel being stolen from, then ... well, it's on you . You're too damn exhausted to notice being rolled over like a rag doll.

I agree with this. If you ever had anyone try to take your clothes off while you sleep in the real world, you'll know its nearly impossible to do while waking you.

[Tlaloc]

I do think it would be neat if the code took the difference between "sleeping" and "unconscious" when taking roguery into consideration. If your character is asleep, then I can see an argument for suddenly waking while someone attempts to remove an item that is being worn. Sleeves, shirts, pants, gloves should all be very hard to steal without waking the victim, with heavy items being harder to swipe than lighter things. Loose items like hats and cloaks should be easier, while things like sheathed weapons and jailers keyrings on belts should be very easy. Your inventory is fair game, and a thief should be able to open your backpack and swipe things from inside without too much trouble while you're busy snoozing away.

That's while you're sleeping. If you're unconscious, then all bets are off. If you are physically unable to wake up (because you were sapped, poisoned, or drunk, for example), then you should count yourself lucky they're just taking your stuff.

Now to expand on some ideas: Nerf sleep (the command, no the spell). Sleeping should take what you're wearing in to account. Having worn armor in my lifetime, I do think sleeping in heavy armor is possible, but I'm not sure it would be very restful, unless I was completely exhausted. Perhaps sleeping should be harder to do (or regenerate your HP/Stam/Whatever slower) if you're wearing that heavy-spiked obsidian wrist-razored anakore claw full platemail of doom. Maybe if you wear heavy stuff like that, you find yourself waking up a lot as you try and sleep, as you toss and turn trying to get comphy. Sleeping should be easier and more restful if you're wearing only your silken Faleish boxers.

Also, maybe characters should randomly drop things from their inventories as they sleep. I mean - if I fall asleep with something in my hand, it's a crapshoot if I'm going to be still holding it when I wake.

So, while thieves may have a harder time stealing from you while you sleep, maybe it should also be harder to sleep with a bunch of junk anyway.

While thinking about this, I briefly thought that it would be cool if there was a chance of becoming incriminated if you were swiping an unconscious person's stuff in common rooms (like the Gaj). However, the more I think about it, the more I think it's just not in line with the harshness of the game. Nobody should be perfectly safe anywhere, and on Zalanthas, I think people try to keep their noses out of other peoples business. If I'm trying to get a good nights sleep in the Gaj, why would I start hollering about the Guilder who's stripping some poor bastard next to me? If I talk, he might break my knees!

I think ultimately, the truth is: if you want to be safe and not get your stuff stolen, take steps to prevent that from happening. Find some friends to guard you while you sleep, join a clan, make enough money for an apartment, etc. etc. etc.

[Synthesis]

Fuck having to take your gear off to sleep.

Such a pain to dick around with inventory/eq.

[mansa]

Sleep;
That's where I'm a viking.

[Tisiphone]

Possibility: when stealing from a sleeping person, there could be a check against your steal skill to see if you can pull it off without waking your target. Penalize this check if you're trying to steal something they have equipped, since you would have to unstrap it or otherwise pull it off of them. Failure wakes the target up.

I like this. Make the check dependent on the reasons for sleep, intoxication and spice level (with the right kind of spice), and so on, and I'd be very happy with this idea.

[audrey]

Oh, crap, sorry about the IC information. It was in context, but IC, so yeah, sorry

Also, I'm not really fond of the idea that you can't sleep in public just because of thieves. I get the idea that it's trying to discourage you from healing in an unsafe area. But c'mon, it's supposed to be a realistic game. Everyone talks about sleeping in public as if it's swimming in the Silt Sea. It shouldn't be a death sentence to sleep.

What I'm most annoyed is that while PCs won't 'abuse' steal, a typical NPC could and will do it well. A legendary 40-day thief stealing the pants from an sleeping person, I understand. But c'mon.. a common Amos NPC ripping off your entire inventory in an hour and hiding it in his pants.. without an echo? That's ridiculous.

[Yam]

Oh, crap, sorry about the IC information. It was in context, but IC, so yeah, sorry

Also, I'm not really fond of the idea that you can't sleep in public just because of thieves. I get the idea that it's trying to discourage you from healing in an unsafe area. But c'mon, it's supposed to be a realistic game. Everyone talks about sleeping in public as if it's swimming in the Silt Sea. It shouldn't be a death sentence to sleep.

What I'm most annoyed is that while PCs won't 'abuse' steal, a typical NPC could and will do it well. A legendary 40-day thief stealing the pants from an sleeping person, I understand. But c'mon.. a common Amos NPC ripping off your entire inventory in an hour and hiding it in his pants.. without an echo? That's ridiculous.

You DO get an echo if an unskilled person steals things from you while you sleep.

[Tlaloc]

Fuck having to take your gear off to sleep.

Such a pain to dick around with inventory/eq.

Just as a quick aside - I was mostly kidding about nerfing sleep. While it's a funny mental exercise, I think playability and fun trumps realism in this case. Looking back, I think Jstorrie basically said what I was trying to say, in a much more succinct manner.

[Synthesis]

Fuck having to take your gear off to sleep.

Such a pain to dick around with inventory/eq.

Just as a quick aside - I was mostly kidding about nerfing sleep. While it's a funny mental exercise, I think playability and fun trumps realism in this case. Looking back, I think Jstorrie basically said what I was trying to say, in a much more succinct manner.

I got trolled by Tlaloc 

[RogueGunslinger]

Is it not possible to steal from a table, or bar, or other object that objects can be on?

Syntax?

[Yam]

steal thing place

[RogueGunslinger]

Code Select Expand

93/93 111/115 90/90 standing-walking-sirihish-northern
neutral->
steal mug bar
You quietly approach your target.

93/93 111/115 90/90 standing-walking-sirihish-northern
neutral->

Steal what?

93/93 111/115 90/90 standing-walking-sirihish-northern
neutral->

Code Select Expand


93/93 111/115 90/90 standing-walking-sirihish-northern
neutral->
l table
  Carved from a single board of light agafari wood, - Edited-
Some rickety, wooden chairs are drawn up to it.

On a agafari table (here) :
nothing

93/93 111/115 90/90 standing-walking-sirihish-northern
neutral->
put wine table
You put your finely made glass goblet onto a compact agafari table.

93/93 111/115 90/90 standing-walking-sirihish-northern
neutral->
steal wine table
You quietly approach your target.

93/93 111/115 90/90 standing-walking-sirihish-northern
neutral->

Steal what?

93/93 111/115 90/90 standing-walking-sirihish-northern
neutral->

[Cutthroat]

I think you can only steal if it's dropped in the room.

From something like a bar you'd have to use sleight of hand.

[RogueGunslinger]

You're right... That's very silly...

[Cutthroat]

Yes. Yes, it is.

- Cutthroat hopes a coder will take pity on the thieves of Zalanthas, and let steal work on objects in objects in a room.

[RogueGunslinger]

But you can steal [item] [person] pack... Code is annoying....

[Yam]

Use palm.

[mansa]

Is it not possible to steal from a table, or bar, or other object that objects can be on?

Syntax?

palm item table
slip item table

You need the sleight of hand skill

You can place items on the ground without people knowing, using the plant skill
You can take items from the ground, using the steal skill.

[RogueGunslinger]

I understand... But it obviously shouldn't work like that. I'll just assume there is a reason.

Either stealing items from the floor should use the sleight of hand skill, or stealing items from a table should use the steal skill.

It's just inconsistent is all.

I'll bug it.

[Yam]

I understand... But it obviously shouldn't work like that. I'll just assume there is a reason.

Either stealing items from the floor should use the sleight of hand skill, or stealing items from a table should use the steal skill.

It's just inconsistent is all.

I'll bug it.

It's coded that way because tables and the like are considered containers.

[RogueGunslinger]

But you can steal [item] [person] pack... Code is annoying....

Does that mean you can't Steal [item] pack if the pack is on the ground? You have to palm it?

[Yam]

But you can steal [item] [person] pack... Code is annoying....

Does that mean you can't Steal [item] pack if the pack is on the ground? You have to palm it?

They are considered as a neutral container, not the property of someone else.

[mansa]

palm & slip are designed to palm items from containers that you are carrying.   Like a belt, boot, pack.

The game doesn't differentiate a container that is worn, to a container on the ground.

[RogueGunslinger]

What???

You're making me feel really stupid.

If the code doesn't differentiate a container that's worn or one on the ground how come you can steal from a pack on a person, but not the ground? And you can palm/slip from a pack on the ground, and on your person, but not on another person.

[mansa]

What???

You're making me feel really stupid.

If the code doesn't differentiate a container that's worn or one on the ground how come you can steal from a pack on a person, but not the ground? And you can palm/slip from a pack on the ground, and on your person, but not on another person.

Hmm.

[Yam]

Container YOU wear = container on ground.

Container someone else wears =! container on ground.

You use steal to get something directly from someone else. You use palm to get something from a container that you own or that is unowned.

[RogueGunslinger]

Got it.

Thanks Yam.

[Yam]

My real name is Annie.

Annie Sullivan.

[RogueGunslinger]

LMAO, screw you Yam, screw you.

[Good Gortok]

I think the tugging echo occurs only if the thief doesn't have the steal skill. Meanwhile, if they do, not only does the target feel nothing, there's no echo to the room either, so you can undress a person without anyone noticing it. Some feat.

Soldiers standing in the room should react to anyone stealing something from a sleeping or unconscious person if the item in question could not be stolen while they were awake. Maybe you can somehow relieve a sleeping guy from his undies without him noticing, but certainly not so that bystanders won't.

Also, the weight limit on steal should apply to sleeping people as well, but not unconscious. You're just not going to steal a 25-stone breastplate strapped to a guy's torso with leather and bone clasps if he's merely asleep. If he has been knocked out, sure.

[Angela Christine]

Years ago I had my skirt stolen off my body while I was injured, sleeping, and being guarded by two guys.  No it wasn't the guys that did it, it was some filthy elves.     Back then there was no "tugging" message, and I'm not sure that being guarded actually did anything to protect you from theft, I think it only helped against attacks.

The embarrassing thing was that neither myself nor my two companions noticed that my skirt was gone.      I was walking around bare legged for more than an hour before I noticed, which left me in a very awkward position, RP wise.   ICly it would be asinine to suddenly notice that my skirt was gone, especially since no one around me had noticed yet.  Yet I had to replace it, since eventually someone was bound to notice I was naked between my belt and my boots (unless I was wearing virtual underwear or something, but I've never seen a firm ruling on the possible existence of virtual underwear.)  People might not notice right away, cloaks can be held closed after all, but sooner or later it would be noticed.  So I had to make an excuse to go off to the bazaar alone, to replace it. 

ICly I pretty much pretended it had never happened.  Which was wrong, because it had happened, and at least one other PC (the thief) knew it had happened.  But suddenly noticing the breeze in my pubes after walking around like that all day wouldn't make sense either.

My point, I guess, is that I wish that there was some notification when major pieces of clothing have gone missing.  You might not wake up when someone steals your boots, but as soon as you wake up you should notice that you are barefoot.  If the missing clothing doesn't affect stats you keep in your prompt, assuming that you keep stats in your prompt at all, it is surprisingly easy to "not notice" that you are half naked.

First, we'd need an Imm to confirm but I don't believe communal sleeping areas are equivlant to homeless shelters.  Why? Because I've always assumed that the -majority- of commoners use them.  After all, to be a merchant and afford a place or to be in an organization which has a dorm room is such a luxury.  

I disagree.

I've always assumed that the vast majority of commoners live in some kind of home, mostly crowded tenements, but shanties are possible too.  Yes, the rent on even a crappy apartment is high enough to make a private room a luxury.  However, it is unlikely that very many of those apartments are occupied by just one person, most of them would be occupied by a family.  There could be a dozen people, including several adults, sharing an apartment that a PC would live in alone. 

Granny stays home with the children too large to be carried on their mother's back, but too small to have a job or to wander the streets alone (most of these kids would be aged 2 to 5 or so).  If there is a cooking facility in or near the apartment then she does most of the cooking for the family, and does some valuable crafting with the help of the kids.  She may not do as much financially for the family as the younger adults, but having her take care of the littles frees them up for work, and besides she doesn't eat as much as a younger adult either.  The other adults and older children are rarely all home at the same time, their work has them coming and going at all hours, which is just as well because there isn't really room for a dozen people to sleep in there at the same time.  Depending on the needs of their work, some sleep at night and some sleep during the heat of the day.  The home is almost never completely empty, there will nearly always be someone home, sleeping, eating, or watching the children.  The fact that the room is never empty explains why thieves don't break in and steal their filthy blankets, crappy dishes or primitive decorations.  They don't need good locks because screaming kids make an excellent burglar alarm -- they may not be strong enough to physically stop a thief, but they are loud enough to alert the authorities. 

I imagine that most of the people sleeping in the dorms are people who are temporarily down on their luck, small groups of traders from out of town, people who got too drunk to walk home, people who don't want to go home to their crowded tenement for one reason or another, and various other people who need temporary accommodations.  Letting diseased beggars permanently set up housekeeping in your dorm just doesn't make sense.

Honestly, there isn't enough information in game to be sure either way.  There aren't any easily accessible homes with a half a dozen NPCs inside demonstrating what normal family life looks like.  On the other hand, there is no evidence that people are raising families inside the public dorms either.  There are (or were, before recent famines) a million people in Allanak.  Half of those are slaves.  House family members, scummy rinth dwellers, and beggars who sleep in the street might account for as much as another 100 000 people, leaving 400 000 "typical" commoners.  Likely at least 100 000 of those commoners are children under 13 (pre-PC age).  The Gaj is the largest and most popular public dorm that PCs have access to, and there is no sign that hundreds, much less thousands, of people are sleeping there at any one time -- or even that there is room for hundreds to sleep there.

Even if your family has an apartment, clan dorms are still a good perk.  A real bed that you get all to yourself?  Possibly even an assigned bed that is all yours for as long as you are with the clan and that no one else sleeps in even when you aren't using it?  Heaven.  Anyone who thinks that having your own bed isn't a fantastic perk has never had to sleep 4 to a bed.  (I've only done it at crowded family reunions, but when my mom was little, she often shared a bed with 2-4 other kids.  It used to be pretty common).  A trunk that you don't have to share with anyone, where you can keep your private stuff and you don't have to worry about lots of other people pawing though it or playing with it while you are off at work?  Pretty damned sweet.  And since most clan dorms have no indications that the children (or other dependents)  of employees are living there, it is pretty likely that even some people with a good job that includes a sleeping dorm may also contribute to a household in the commons, even if they only go there on weekends.

[Incognito]

While we're at it, I thought I might just mention here that - there IS a difference between sleeping/resting in public places, and PCs who go outdoors, get half-beaten to death, come back leaving a trail of blood and then sleep purely to regen.

If I see a PC who's in terrible condition, and sleeping in a public place, I'll steal all his clothes and possibly shave some of his hair off too, coz obviously I know he's in no position to wake up and defend himself, or even wake up and protest, period.

[brytta.leofa]

My point, I guess, is that I wish that there was some notification when major pieces of clothing have gone missing.  You might not wake up when someone steals your boots, but as soon as you wake up you should notice that you are barefoot.

<worn on body>   (nothing)
<worn on legs>   (nothing)
<worn on feet>   (nothing)

[UnderSeven]

While we're at it, I thought I might just mention here that - there IS a difference between sleeping/resting in public places, and PCs who go outdoors, get half-beaten to death, come back leaving a trail of blood and then sleep purely to regen.

If I see a PC who's in terrible condition, and sleeping in a public place, I'll steal all his clothes and possibly shave some of his hair off too, coz obviously I know he's in no position to wake up and defend himself, or even wake up and protest, period.

I think this is a really good point.  Arguably sleeping, which is generally only used to get back above regen could be considered something entirely differet than what most of us view as sleeping.  This makes me feel a little better about the whole thing.

[DustMight]

> ep club
> rest
> change ldesc is sleeping here.
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
> phemote eyes glitter beneath nearly-shut lids.
(wait 30 secs)
...

Though I've heard of abuse of code wherein someone changes their ldesc to indicate they are sleeping while in reality they are standing in the middle of the room, this is an excellent use of the code tools.  Nicely done.

[Tisiphone]

I'm pretty sure you actually can't change your ldesc to mimick coded stances.

[brytta.leofa]

I'm pretty sure you actually can't change your ldesc to mimick coded stances.

for(char **p = LDESC_RESERVED; p; p++)
  if (!strcmp(ldesc, *p))
    ch->karma = ch->karma ? ch->karma-1 : 0;

[musashi]

I'm pretty sure you actually can't change your ldesc to mimick coded stances.

for(char **p = LDESC_RESERVED; p; p++)
  if (!strcmp(ldesc, *p))
    ch->karma = ch->karma ? ch->karma-1 : 0;

[SMuz]

My point, I guess, is that I wish that there was some notification when major pieces of clothing have gone missing.  You might not wake up when someone steals your boots, but as soon as you wake up you should notice that you are barefoot.

<worn on body>   (nothing)
<worn on legs>   (nothing)
<worn on feet>   (nothing)

Heh, I'd prefer it if it was also applied to when you look at others.

> look (hot chick passed out at the Tembo)

<worn on legs> (nothing)

[Morgenes]

What???

You're making me feel really stupid.

If the code doesn't differentiate a container that's worn or one on the ground how come you can steal from a pack on a person, but not the ground? And you can palm/slip from a pack on the ground, and on your person, but not on another person.

The code does differentiate between items that are attended (actively worn) and those that aren't.

The steal skill involves taking and putting things on someone who is actively wearing or using the item.  So, the backpack worn by someone is attended by that person, and so taking from or putting things in the backpack without them noticing is a skill. 

The sleight of hand skill involves taking and putting things from containers that aren't actively worn by anyone.  So the backpack sitting in the room isn't attended by anyone, and so taking from or putting things in the backpack is a different, but related skill.

Therefore you use steal/plant when dealing with an attended object, and slip/palm when the item is not attended, but your action could be seen.

[musashi]

By that logic, should we then if we want to RP setting our backpack down by our feet at the bar, just leave it in our inventory and emote that it's at our feet? So that we're codedly "attending" it?

[RogueGunslinger]

I do that anyways. Same for removing a helmet and setting it on the bar.

[Tisiphone]

By that logic, should we then if we want to RP setting our backpack down by our feet at the bar, just leave it in our inventory and emote that it's at our feet? So that we're codedly "attending" it?

Very much so. At least, that's what I do. After all, inventory is virtual space for tended objects. You don't have to be holding them specifically; those items go in ep and es.

[DustMight]

I do that anyways. Same for removing a helmet and setting it on the bar.

I do this as well.

[DustMight]

I'm pretty sure you actually can't change your ldesc to mimick coded stances.

for(char **p = LDESC_RESERVED; p; p++)
  if (!strcmp(ldesc, *p))
    ch->karma = ch->karma ? ch->karma-1 : 0;

You are guessing.  And, this is not true, though funny.