The Derth of Master Crafters

[Kryos]

Why don't leaders in games keep doing it?  Because its a thankless job.  Though its not on Arm, the short story to follow bears weight here.  I led a guild in WoW through the entire BC.  We did well, killed everything in the game.  But when the next content increase came out, I offed the guild.  Why?  Why toss something that was working well?

No one gave a shit.  That's why.  What about me?  My loot?  My needs?  This was all the players had going on in their mind.  And so, I wasted four hours a night of my life doing a thankless job with no compensation.  It helped me achieve my goals, but it wasn't worth the trade off. 

I think you'll find most leadership, staff, or positions of that kind of nature always bear the burden of thanklessness in the gaming environment.  You're responsible for the fun of others, and most of time all you hear is bitching.  Takes a certain kind of masochist.  But, let me say, that its not all doom and gloom.  Some times click rather nicely and it doesn't feel like a job any more.  But that takes both a talented leader and capable, eager subordinates. 


As for GMH's.  They give this offer:  I take out all the fun of playing this character, and nuke many freedoms.  In return, you get to keep playing it!  Hurray!  This sounds like a bad, raw deal.  I know its being looked at in 2.a, but sheesh  Maybe we need  revolution sooner.

[Tisiphone]

Why don't leaders in games keep doing it?  Because its a thankless job.

But, let me say, that its not all doom and gloom.  Some times click rather nicely and it doesn't feel like a job any more.  But that takes both a talented leader and capable, eager subordinates.

Leaders play to have fun, just like everyone else. A good leader's fun consists in both leading well and enjoying the fruits of doing so. Most times, even when one pours heart and soul into this game, one gets at most semisweet memories in return.

[FantasyWriter]

Just knock the competition off... class assassin PCs need work just as much as crafters.

You better believe if I was a Sallari Family member and all kinds of rare armor started showing up in my shop in the market, I would order the NPC in the shop to refuse to do any business with that filthy scum independent, ever again, and then put a bounty out on his ass...


Combat classes are suppose to be scared to hunt/fight alone. (that's why we have the Byn and GMH hunting parties)
Make merchants scared to craft alone.

Fixed part in bold...

Nice fix, Lizz!

[Thunkkin]

Most times, even when one pours heart and soul into this game, one gets at most semisweet memories in return.

And minions who pamper and adore you! *flutters eyelashes*

Seriously, volunteer leadership sucks the life out of people.  It's no mystery and it's not Arm-specific.  Go look at any volunteer work and you'll see this.  My frame of reference is from growing up in small churches where a few people (usually women) would take on huge teaching, cleaning, and cooking loads and do *everything* at the church until they would finally have hysterical break-downs and leave. Then the church would be dirty for a while, there'd be no fun events and meals or Bible studies, and people would grouse.  Then eventually some new person or people would step forward to have their souls drained and the cycle would repeat.

[Malken]

Just knock the competition off... class assassin PCs need work just as much as crafters.

You better believe if I was a Sallari Family member and all kinds of rare armor started showing up in my shop in the market, I would order the NPC in the shop to refuse to do any business with that filthy scum independent, ever again, and then put a bounty out on his ass...


Combat classes are suppose to be scared to hunt/fight alone. (that's why we have the Byn and GMH hunting parties)
Make merchants scared to craft alone.

Fixed part in bold...

Nice fix, Lizz!

But the strange thing is that you usually don't need those Salarr and Kadius shops to make a small fortune as an independant, usually, independant shops pay even more for that armor you're trying to sell to them..

Independants would still make a fortune even if they were kicked out of Salarr or Kadius, maybe a smaller fortuner, but still a fortune.

A drastic need would be needed.. Like shops suddenly stop buying any finished goods, independant merchants should just be able to sell parts that are needed in those finished goods.

Like, in a Kadius shop, you should only be able to sell moonstone buttons and obsidian buckles, you shouldn't be able to sell silky dresses and fancy hats.

Same with Salarr, you should only be able to sell them wooden hilts and leather straps, not obsidian breastplates and such.

There, I solved the problem.

[FantasyWriter]

stuff.

That's why you are putting a hit on them.  If I was a family member I would also be keeping an eye on my indie/tribal NPC shop competition.
Anyone (indies AND tribals) Are going to receive a lot of pressure from me.
PCs will get knocked off or I would bribe the Templarate to perma crim them ICly. They won't be doing business in my city, and if they get cought, they would disappear (in Tuluk) or get beat/killed in Allanak.

[Marauder Moe]

Why are you putting a hit on anyone instead of demanding a cut of their profits first?

[a strange shadow]

Like, in a Kadius shop, you should only be able to sell moonstone buttons and obsidian buckles, you shouldn't be able to sell silky dresses and fancy hats.

Same with Salarr, you should only be able to sell them wooden hilts and leather straps, not obsidian breastplates and such.

There, I solved the problem.

That actually makes sense. Accept raw materials and craftable stuff, not finished goods. Perhaps the things bought could go in some backroom warehouse accessible to PCs, in case there is ever any dearth of materials (hahahahahahaha oh man I kill myself). The backroom would not be a save room, so each time the game reboots, it gets cleaned out (by VNPC crafters).

[a strange shadow]

Why are you putting a hit on anyone instead of demanding a cut of their profits first?

Also, this.

[Malken]

stuff.

That's why you are putting a hit on them.  If I was a family member I would also be keeping an eye on my indie/tribal NPC shop competition.
Anyone (indies AND tribals) Are going to receive a lot of pressure from me.
PCs will get knocked off or I would bribe the Templarate to perma crim them ICly. They won't be doing business in my city, and if they get cought, they would disappear (in Tuluk) or get beat/killed in Allanak.

I hope you're also placing a hit on the independant shop owners that are actually the ones encouraging the independant PCs to sell to them by offering them huge amount of coins in exchange for their goods.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I actually have taken time to step back and look at this all. I have been looking at it from the perspective of maintaining the Merchant Families' monopolies. Looking at it from another perspective, geared more towards intended changes in 2.0, things could very well be heading in the right direction story wise.

[FantasyWriter]

stuff.

That's why you are putting a hit on them.  If I was a family member I would also be keeping an eye on my indie/tribal NPC shop competition.
Anyone (indies AND tribals) Are going to receive a lot of pressure from me.
PCs will get knocked off or I would bribe the Templarate to perma crim them ICly. They won't be doing business in my city, and if they get cought, they would disappear (in Tuluk) or get beat/killed in Allanak.

I hope you're also placing a hit on the independant shop owners that are actually the ones encouraging the independant PCs to sell to them by offering them huge amount of coins in exchange for their goods.

great Idea, thanks... I would prob hire an assassin to knwo them off, then burning the building down inside to make somone thing kit was an accident.

[Salt Merchant]

stuff.

That's why you are putting a hit on them.  If I was a family member I would also be keeping an eye on my indie/tribal NPC shop competition.
Anyone (indies AND tribals) Are going to receive a lot of pressure from me.
PCs will get knocked off or I would bribe the Templarate to perma crim them ICly. They won't be doing business in my city, and if they get cought, they would disappear (in Tuluk) or get beat/killed in Allanak.

Why does everything have to progressively move to extremes in Arm?

So merchants are now the latest sort of outcast, to be reviled like magickers except when safely "collared" (i.e. reduced to servitude of a GMH family's interests)?

As I've pointed out before, each GMH has a total lock on a very profitable market.

Kurac is spice, obviously. If some independent merchant tries to deal in spice, fine, he or she is asking for trouble.

Salarr is armor and weapons for the armies. This must be a huge market by itself, dwarfing all sales to individuals. I'd go as far to suggest that individual sales (except of top-end items like metal weapons) is pocket change to Salarr.

Kadius has a lock on the silkers market. Maybe they'd get upset if an independent merchant started to sell high-end silks, but they're hardly going to care about linens, sandcloth, onyx rings and other crap, in my opinion, because there's just not that much money in those.

So I suggest the GMHs just back off on the independent merchant issue.

[FuSoYa]

I just want to throw out there...

Some people, like myself, really enjoy being in a clan. 

I know this isn't adding much but when I see people say certain things about GMH leadership or playing in a clan it just kind of sucks because while you may feel that way it doesn't mean the rest of the game world does. 

I don't know...

Brandon

[FantasyWriter]

It's a catch 22... you need a good leader order to attract minions, but you need minions to prove that you are a good leader.

It is hard to do when you come into a leader wrole with no PC underlings already there.

[Senga]

So I suggest the GMHs just back off on the independent merchant issue.

I think people are missing a point made about when a GMH would care about independents - when they start making the social contacts to establish a House of their own and/or buy a wagon which would open the door for significant trade.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

As I've pointed out before, each GMH has a total lock on a very profitable market.

Kurac is spice, obviously. If some independent merchant tries to deal in spice, fine, he or she is asking for trouble.

Salarr is armor and weapons for the armies. This must be a huge market by itself, dwarfing all sales to individuals. I'd go as far to suggest that individual sales (except of top-end items like metal weapons) is pocket change to Salarr.

Kadius has a lock on the silkers market. Maybe they'd get upset if an independent merchant started to sell high-end silks, but they're hardly going to care about linens, sandcloth, onyx rings and other crap, in my opinion, because there's just not that much money in those.

So I suggest the GMHs just back off on the independent merchant issue.

This is a great point. Unfortunately, it doesn't solve PC members, without 'great leadership'.

As I noted earlier, I find this a potentially good opportunity to transition to a indie system, and relegate the GMHs to a gradually more and more NPC role.

[Tisiphone]

So I suggest the GMHs just back off on the independent merchant issue.

I think people are missing a point made about when a GMH would care about independents - when they start making the social contacts to establish a House of their own and/or buy a wagon which would open the door for significant trade.

That's a thin line, isn't it?

On the one hand, your GMH wants to snuff them out. On the other - they're getting to be powerful. If the GMHs don't act quickly, when said Houses burn down the stall in the bazaar, the Templarate will come a'knockin', and 'twon't be for tea-time.

[FantasyWriter]

The Templarate would have been paid off beforehand. When the liscense was purchased.

[Tisiphone]

The Templarate would have been paid off beforehand. When the liscense was purchased.

Paid off.

For burning down a stall that's already paying proper taxes to the templarate.

And bringing in a decent profit in the sense of more sales taxes.

Not to mention the indirect economic benefits to the templarate, among which might be a sense of security in the citizens, the influx of second and third degree economic materiel, and as something to lean one other than the GMHs when a point needs making.

You'd better be paying a hefty bribe, son.

[a strange shadow]

"So, Senior Agent, what I want to do is burn down this stall so people have to come to us instead of going to him. I'll need 20,000 to pay off Lord Templar Hardnose."

"I see. Demanding a cut of their profits didn't work? Last I checked, he was doing a modest profit in linen sales."

"Er.. why would I bother with that?"

"Hm. Did they refuse to pay a fee to ensure their continued unhampered operation?"

"I.. didn't ask."

"So basically, what you want for us to do is spend 20,000 on this stupid shit with a stupid stall and annoy Lord Templar Hardnose, who is a very hardworking and busy man, and you haven't even tried to make a profit off of them before you burn them down?"

".... I'm gonna show myself out now."

"You do that. I expect to hear favorable progress reports next time."

[tortall]

"So, Senior Agent, what I want to do is burn down this stall so people have to come to us instead of going to him. I'll need 20,000 to pay off Lord Templar Hardnose."

"I see. Demanding a cut of their profits didn't work? Last I checked, he was doing a modest profit in linen sales."

"Er.. why would I bother with that?"

"Hm. Did they refuse to pay a fee to ensure their continued unhampered operation?"

"I.. didn't ask."

"So basically, what you want for us to do is spend 20,000 on this stupid shit with a stupid stall and annoy Lord Templar Hardnose, who is a very hardworking and busy man, and you haven't even tried to make a profit off of them before you burn them down?"

".... I'm gonna show myself out now."

"You do that. I expect to hear favorable progress reports next time."

OMG! THAT'S HOW IT GOES EVERY TIME I BRING AN AWESOME IDEA IN!!!!

[Delstro]

When I paid Serpent to kill an NPC shopkeeper, the game crashed and the head disappeared.

When I told my imms, they told me that the shopkeeper really got away. Too bad.

That is why I havn't done that type of role for a loong time.

This is what would make me want to join a merchant house:
The chance to learn new skills. New skills that I will never beable to learn as an inde. Ones not in my skill tree.
Access to cheaper/free housing outside of the barracks.
Access to steady supply of materials to craft.
Safety. If a templar is in a bad mood, he isn't going to kill me.
RPTs with the Bynn!

Back in the old days, templars used to whack random people on the street. In a house, I know I won't be one of those poor bastards.

[Thunkkin]

This is what would make me want to join a merchant house:
The chance to learn new skills. New skills that I will never beable to learn as an inde. Ones not in my skill tree.
Access to cheaper/free housing outside of the barracks.
Access to steady supply of materials to craft.
Safety. If a templar is in a bad mood, he isn't going to kill me.
RPTs with the Bynn!

Wow.  This thread has been eye-opening.  I had always assumed all of the above in addition to my assumption that GMHs exerted monopolies that directly affected the daily life of indy crafters.

How can the above not be the case? (Other than safety from Templars ...)

[Malken]

Well, in theory, it's all there.

In theory.