The Derth of Master Crafters

[Pale Horse]

I wish there were better provisions in a GMH for a crafter outfitting the other employees.  As it stands, my experience is that employees cant afford to buy much, even on discount.  If, instead, GMH had some elite troops or employees that crafters could sign on to specifically support as part of their duties, it might make for some fun and goal driven groups.

There are elite divisions in some Houses, be they GMH or Noble that do have fun insignia to parade around in.

How do you get into a position to be a supplier for these groups?  Be a good salesmen, of yourself or of what you make, then convince said group to adopt your stuff as part of their official or unofficial uniform.  It's been done before, let's see it done, again.

[Lizzie]

Just knock the competition off... class assassin PCs need work just as much as crafters.

You better believe if I was a Sallari Family member and all kinds of rare armor started showing up in my shop in the market, I would order the NPC in the shop to refuse to do any business with that filthy scum independent, ever again, and then put a bounty out on his ass...


Combat classes are suppose to be scared to hunt/fight alone. (that's why we have the Byn and GMH hunting parties)
Make merchants scared to craft alone.

Fixed part in bold...

[Lizzie]

All it takes is good leadership.

GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.

If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k.  If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.

The "Administrator" hath spoken. This makes me happy. Let's see how successful you are now, cuirass-selling, silk-wearing, noble-flirting independents - with a sharpened jasper spoon sticking out of your chest!

[Tisiphone]

All it takes is good leadership.

GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.

If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k.  If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.

The "Administrator" hath spoken. This makes me happy. Let's see how successful you are now, cuirass-selling, silk-wearing, noble-flirting independents - with a sharpened jasper spoon sticking out of your chest!

It goes both ways. If you're unable to give me what I need, GMH, and you kill the independent who CAN, I will make it my life's work to see your House go down in flames. And don't you think that I can't do it, either.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Indies should either stay outta certain markets, stick to certain products, be subtle and tricky about their shit, or do what's going to be easier and join a House. If this is the serious Staff response, like I hope it is, things'll even out.

But yeh, GMH's better do a good job making their job attractive regardless.

Bwahaha.

[Gimfalisette]

Reiterating:

I abhor the idea of rewarding poor leadership in the GMHs with extra muscle to force PCs to join.

Shit like that, honestly, makes me want to quit ARM. And yeah, I'm kind of thinking about it daily right now.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Reiterating:

I abhor the idea of rewarding poor leadership in the GMHs with extra muscle to force PCs to join.

Shit like that, honestly, makes me want to quit ARM. And yeah, I'm kind of thinking about it daily right now.

I think that, frankly, if you are a bad leader in a GMH, then trying to convince others to join your clan is going to just get you in trouble and it won't matter that you have a bit of extra muscle. Because if you are not clever, you'll just get in trouble with the Law AND your Family. Think about it.

[Malken]

The "Administrator" hath spoken. This makes me happy. Let's see how successful you are now, cuirass-selling, silk-wearing, noble-flirting independents - with a sharpened jasper spoon sticking out of your chest!

If I was currently playing my merchant, I'd be so unafraid of this it's not even funny.

There are plenty of ways for the indie crafters to protect themselves against such threats, and if they play their cards right, they become virtually untouchable.

I feel really bad for any GMH who has to be the first one to start enforcing this again, it's a very thin line to follow, if you bully people around too much, you'll be known as such, and no one will want to
play under you, but if no one do anything about it, then the situation will continue.

I've never ever felt threatened to join a GMH with my merchant, actually, in the end, I sort of did it out of pity for the friends of my character and, probably, out of boredom. You just have to be smart
about it.. If you go to the Sanctuary and brag that you can make a thousand 'sids a day by selling silks and that's why you don't need a job, then yes, you deserve the trouble that it brings you.

*********************************************************************

I was going to start another topic about how totally out of whack and easy it is to make money with way too many crafts, most of them available as a subclass crafter only, but I just don't really have
the energy or drive to do so.. When I think about it, it's really a huge mess and I don't really know how we could fix it, like I told someone, it's like a Jenga game, if you take a piece out, you risk
the whole thing crumbling apart.

Money brought me prestige, not the other way around, that's for damn certain.

*********************************************************************

PS: Please stop with the 10000 'sids a week, I already said once that this was for a master crafter item, I've never said that you could usually do this.

Now it feels that many are using that number just because they have no argument against what is being said in this thread, except for, "Join Clans, they're awesome fun!"

[Gimfalisette]

I think that, frankly, if you are a bad leader in a GMH, then trying to convince others to join your clan is going to just get you in trouble and it won't matter that you have a bit of extra muscle. Because if you are not clever, you'll just get in trouble with the Law AND your Family. Think about it.

Oh, if only that was true. However, we all know how easy it is to get away with PKing behind compound walls, with friendly NPCs nearby and ready to assist. 90% of GMH leaders given a license to pressure PCs into joining will go for the simple, easy solution...PK-fest! And that'll be really, really good for the game.

[staggerlee]

I think that, frankly, if you are a bad leader in a GMH, then trying to convince others to join your clan is going to just get you in trouble and it won't matter that you have a bit of extra muscle. Because if you are not clever, you'll just get in trouble with the Law AND your Family. Think about it.

Oh, if only that was true. However, we all know how easy it is to get away with PKing behind compound walls, with friendly NPCs nearby and ready to assist. 90% of GMH leaders given a license to pressure PCs into joining will go for the simple, easy solution...PK-fest! And that'll be really, really good for the game.

It doesn't really address the issue either - clanned roles still lack appeal.
I mean, the whole "kill the competition" thing sort of works... so can Tor and the militia start press ganging warriors? I don't think killing proficient characters that refuse to join your house is a solution, at all.

I believe that the GMH should do away with competition that refuses to listen to 'reason.'  But clanned roles also need to be somewhat appealing for players, and not just new players that don't know how to survive on their own yet. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think that, frankly, if you are a bad leader in a GMH, then trying to convince others to join your clan is going to just get you in trouble and it won't matter that you have a bit of extra muscle. Because if you are not clever, you'll just get in trouble with the Law AND your Family. Think about it.

Oh, if only that was true. However, we all know how easy it is to get away with PKing behind compound walls, with friendly NPCs nearby and ready to assist. 90% of GMH leaders given a license to pressure PCs into joining will go for the simple, easy solution...PK-fest! And that'll be really, really good for the game.

I doubt, for one thing, that they will actually be able to convince said victim to be in a position like that. Secondly, I think that Clan Staff would be pretty heavy handed about such actions. Obviously, the Merchant is not capable of being slick. I just don't see this sort of thing happening, Gimf. I think players will suffer or be slicker than you suspect.

I say, let's see what happens, in any case. You may be surprised.

Furthermore, I would like to see staff for the GMHs set out harsh guidelines about how to challenge indie merchants. I would like to see excessive or border-line twinky behavior punished harshly. I have been the victim of such a killing, and the staffer at the time was livid about how it was done. I see no reason why this would not be the case across the board.

I would encourage staff to consider punishing House merchants who can not handle most of these issues in a way that does not involve tactics. Robbery is fine. Making their lives miserable is fine. Rumors are fine. Subtle stuff is fine. But like nobles, merchants should have to engage in the same sort of political fuckery, just on a different level.

[Gimfalisette]

I doubt, for one thing, that they will actually be able to convince said victim to be in a position like that.

Sure, a GMH leader bent on PKing won't be able to convince a veteran player's PC to come along into the compound for a nice friendly cup of tea. Veteran players won't be the ones to bear the brunt of this new pogrom against indie merchants. Nah, it'll be newbies who don't know better who are unable to figure out how to politically cover themselves, and who then get the benefit of the RPless, unexplained death.

Secondly, I think that Clan Staff would be pretty heavy handed about such actions.

Punishment is not prevention.

I say, let's see what happens, in any case. You may be surprised.

I say I'll start avoiding the majority of GMH leaders, just like I avoid the majority of nobles and templars, too.

[Salt Merchant]

All it takes is good leadership.

GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.

If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k.  If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.

This reinforces my perception that independents are not welcome in the game these days.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I say I'll start avoiding the majority of GMH leaders, just like I avoid the majority of nobles and templars, too.

Seconded.

Also, this:

All it takes is good leadership.

GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.

If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k.  If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.

This reinforces my perception that independents are not welcome in the game these days.

Seriously.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I think attempting to force indie crafters into such currently un-fun situations as forced recruitment into a GMH or else is simply going to end up in the storage and subsequent total lack of PC crafters anyway.  I'm not going to play in a situation I don't consider fun.  I wouldn't expect anyone else to.  Muscling out the indie crafters in the current atmosphere is only likely to leave a complete lack of crafters, period.

If you want fewer indie crafters and more GMH crafters, become a leader that's going to be fun and attractive to work with.  I was in Salarr last year under their awesome leadership and I do not once remember us having a lack of anyone wanting to join the party, merchant class or otherwise.  That isn't to say that the current GMH PCs are terrible leaders or anything like that, but I have played in both of the major cities recently, and I have only seen two GMH family members consistently.  Combined total of both cities, in the last couple of months.  Visibility is a huge part of attracting other cool, fun people to your party.

Third.  If you are an active, cool, and fun enough leader to even notice that Indie Crafter Joe is taking your business, and you are willing to start plots to stop him... then you're probably active, cool, and fun enough that people are going to want to join your GMH anyway.  To me it would seem to be a self-solving problem at that point.

What are you going to do next, force all of the indie hunters into your GMH?  The strategy just makes no sense.  If you want more GMH crafters, be the cool GMH leader that makes them want to join.

[Vanth]

All it takes is good leadership.

GMH's ( i.e. family members) should be targeting anyone who is indy in the 2 main cities, and actively threatening GMH supremacy (making social contacts as well as nearing/at master crafter status). Ideally (from the GMH sperspective), no-one should have the social status combined with wealth, to establish a Lesser Merchant House.

If you (the indy crafter) really just wanna spamcraft 24/7 and not play the social game, we don't care much if you make 20k.  If you want to use that $ for something, like buying a shop or wagon, you need the social contacts.

The "Administrator" hath spoken. This makes me happy. Let's see how successful you are now, cuirass-selling, silk-wearing, noble-flirting independents - with a sharpened jasper spoon sticking out of your chest!

It goes both ways. If you're unable to give me what I need, GMH, and you kill the independent who CAN, I will make it my life's work to see your House go down in flames. And don't you think that I can't do it, either.

See, now we're all having fun, Armageddon style.

[Salt Merchant]

Well, that's pretty much what happened to make these monopolies in the first place.

It's odd how plenty of little armor, weapon, clothing, food, wine shops, stands and businesses can be found around the game world, but since they're NPC owned, no GMH seems to care. Yet if a PC dares to sell a scrap of armor to someone else, assassins should be the natural consequence?

[Shiroi Tsuki]

As long as it was a PC merchant hiring a PC assassin to get rid of other PC competition, I would be down with that.  It's when you start involving NPCs and vNPCs to try and force an external will on PCs that are doing well for themselves that I think there's a problem.

I still stand by if the PC is cool and active and connected enough that they recognize someone else is fucking them over, and are going to start a plot to get rid of them, and pull in other players... then they're probably a good leader that's going to attract other cool people to their cause regardless of the crappy pay and utter lack of perks available for crafters in a GMH versus indie crafters.  Because it has happened before and with the right leadership it'll happen again.

I think it's been obviously demonstrated that people don't join a clan for the pay.  The benefits of joining a clan are directly inherent in being around the fun, cool, plot-loving people in that clan.  If you aren't fun cool and plot-loving, you aren't going to attract anyone to your clan, regardless of how much enforcement you shove down their throats.  If you don't provide your GMH crafters with funness, coolness, and plots, then you aren't going to keep them no matter how much enforcement you're cramming on everyone else.

[Malken]

Well, that's pretty much what happened to make these monopolies in the first place.

It's odd how plenty of little armor, weapon, clothing, food, wine shops, stands and businesses can be found around the game world, but since they're NPC owned, no GMH seems to care. Yet if a PC dares to sell a scrap of armor to someone else, assassins should be the natural consequence?

That's a good point, hey, GMH, before you start going after the PC that sells his shitty scrapers made out of agate and bone longswords, why don't you go after all of the independant NPC shops that are, often, the cause of said independant PCs getting wealthy?

Oh, wait, I'll be told to find out IC why they don't, right.

[Vanth]

If this is the serious Staff response, like I hope it is, things'll even out.

This is me giving you guys ideas for how to solve the perceived "problem" in game, not providing an official staff response.

Another idea would be to play characters who have grown up in oppressive poverty (you are commoners) and truly believe that it's an honor and a privilege to have the protection, companionship, and job security that come from joining a House.

I'm not saying that people playing indys aren't roleplaying properly.  I'm just saying you can choose to play other types of characters.  If you don't, that's fine too.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

For goodness sake ... I give up.

Early in this thread, many ideas were shared about how to make clans worth joining, particularly, in this case, Merchant Houses. Unfortunately, outside of 'good leadership', nothing can be agreed on. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that 'good leadership' gets discouraged just like the rest of you do, and nothing gets changed until one of those rare players come along that will tolerate building an organization from the ground up.

There are not so many of those 'rare players'. This seems to mean that it is impossible to ever have more than a few clans prospering at one time. Perhaps this is only my preception, but perhaps it is not.

In any case, I give up arguing about this. I understand the points about forcing PCs to play in situations that end up not being fun for them, and that is not something I would want to see. It seems conflict is not something that appeals to everyone. There is no win-win in this situation, without one of those long-lived, fun PCs to rebirth specific hurting clans, and the last thing we need is people avoiding other PCs simply because of a paranoia of conflict.

[Gimfalisette]

outside of 'good leadership', nothing can be agreed on. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that 'good leadership' gets discouraged just like the rest of you do, and nothing gets changed until one of those rare players come along that will tolerate building an organization from the ground up.

There are not so many of those 'rare players'. This seems to mean that it is impossible to ever have more than a few clans prospering at one time. Perhaps this is only my preception, but perhaps it is not.

The elephant in the room is: Why do good player-leaders become discouraged and frustrated and then stop playing leadership? Of the players who successfully did leadership in 2006-2007--the ones who are remembered in their clans and by many players--the vast majority are not doing leadership now.

I understand the points about forcing PCs to play in situations that end up not being fun for them, and that is not something I would want to see. It seems conflict is not something that appeals to everyone. There is no win-win in this situation, without one of those long-lived, fun PCs to rebirth specific hurting clans, and the last thing we need is people avoiding other PCs simply because of a paranoia of conflict.

It's not about not wanting conflict, or being paranoid of it. It's about not being interested in one-sided, no-win, "because I can" conflict. It's about conflict being a poor substitute for Story. It's about me not being interested in subsidizing someone else's enjoyment of ARM via my PC's death.

[Ghost]

As long as it was a PC merchant hiring a PC assassin to get rid of other PC competition, I would be down with that.  It's when you start involving NPCs and vNPCs to try and force an external will on PCs that are doing well for themselves that I think there's a problem.

That is so difficult that I doubt there would be much practical application.  I remember a Kadian house member hiring Serpent to kill an NPC shopkeeper.  But I have not witnessed much of that kind of business after that. It is doable, though very very rare (since the recent changes to the crimecode, maybe things are better in terms of assassin availability)

The thing is, I think GMH PCs should have better initiative.  At least for certain things, they should be able to make changes in dealings with other houses on the fly, without requiring to run it through clan NPCs.  This may very well change the scales in GMH favor.

For example:  Your Salarr PC learns that Sergeant of House Fale just bought a nice hammer from a random nobody, your PC should be able to mention this to a PC templar that if House Fale is doing business with incompetent nobodies, then perhaps next time their House needs to buy a full set of swords for the entire House guards (NPC/vNPC included) the prices may not remain the same.  If Salarr just increases the price of a piece of equipment by 10 coins, I think it will make a significant effect for House Fale, enough for whoever is the superior of the said PC to have a talk with them.

Now, is it going to solve it?  Yes it may help.  The GMH PCs can also limit the independent PCs interaction with the rest of the city. The more you make it troublesome for doing any type of business for the independents, the more you are making sure there won't be more spreading around.

You can also get rid of them by hiring PC assassins, though the independents often make enough coin to feed the templarate AND the criminal PCs to keep themselves safe.  When I played Serpent, I remember an elf pickpocket, who was giving my assassin so much coin so that I would not get rid of him, the amount of coin to top that and kill him was measuring the assassination of a noble.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The elephant in the room is: Why do good player-leaders become discouraged and frustrated and then stop playing leadership? Of the players who successfully did leadership in 2006-2007--the ones who are remembered in their clans and by many players--the vast majority are not doing leadership now.

That's a good question.

[Malken]

The elephant in the room is: Why do good player-leaders become discouraged and frustrated and then stop playing leadership? Of the players who successfully did leadership in 2006-2007--the ones who are remembered in their clans and by many players--the vast majority are not doing leadership now.

That's a good question.

Maybe because they realize that they can get the same satisfaction of playing Armageddon, but without all of the headaches, by playing an independant?

Indepedant != solo roleplay.

It equals being able to log in and off whenever you want to, not having to deal with superiors, who usually most of the time appear when you mess up, you don't have to deal with recruits and newbies, you have much less rules to follow
and you can still build something great from the ground up and be remembered for it all in the future, but, again, without the usual headaches involved in being a clan leader.

You can't really blame someone for being selfish on a game. I certainly don't. I love playing independants, it doesn't make me want to shoot myself in the face nightly.