The Derth of Master Crafters

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've noted recently the lack of apparent master crafters in the world. What gives, people? DO you know how cool it is to be able to make things nobody else can? Merchant Houses will conspire to thieve you away from one another, you'll be richer than hell, and you get to have RP that focuses on seriously social issues. What's made you folks stop playing these cornerstones of rich PCs' worlds?

[Gimfalisette]

Master crafters are out there; I can think of two currently in game off the top of my head. You're just not looking in the right places.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm actually more interested in mastercrafters related to the Major Merchant Houses, not independents. I remember when every Merchant House had at least one mastercrafter, and sometimes more. That's what I'm wondering about.

[Lizzie]

A few possible reasons:

1. There were a bunch, but they're all dead. The current group of "merchant" guild is slowly working their way up to "master" status.

2. There are some, but they're secret and they just don't want YOU to know, cause they want their monthly item for themselves.

3. Same as #2, but they're giving their monthly item to that -other- guy who bribes more or whose threats have more impact.

4. The "merchant" guild characters aren't doing a very good job at impressing the GMHs that they're worth hiring and investing time, energy, and raw materials into training them to become master crafters. So they don't get hired, and ultimately die or get bored and store before they ever get that good.

5. It is insanely difficult to -be- a merchant-guild character, if you want regular social interaction, an active clan in which to find that regular social interaction, availability of a multitude of raw materials at low or zero cost to yourself, shops which will buy all the total crap you are required to produce during your first few RL months of being a merchant-guild just so you can eventually be good enough to make things PCs are interested in buying (that includes clans where you aren't allowed to do your own selling - the person who has that responsibility on your behalf STILL has to find shops willing to buy the stuff - except now they can't sell it to their -own- shops so the options are -extremely- limited) and so on and so forth..

6. The -only- people who can become master crafters are merchant guild. That puts them in the minority before they ever get out of the hall of kings. You are more likely to run into a combat-based character in the local tavern, than you are a merchant-guild character because there are a whole bunch of combat-based main guilds, and only one "master crafter" guild.

[Gimfalisette]

I played a crafter character inside a GMH once. I've also played a couple of master crafter characters outside of the GMHs. The "benefits" of playing a crafter inside the GMHs just aren't sufficient to interest me in that environment, when balanced against the significant disadvantages.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Those are good points, Liz and Gimf. So, how do we solve the problems that are presented? I want a discussion, basically, on how to improve the role of a merchant-class character in the Houses. I feel that the apparent lack of ability to help older characters get what they want kinda hurts older characters, who've been hustling for RL years, in some cases, to get to the point where they can actually ask for consideration for things.

Perhaps a reduction of mastercrafting times from one month to two weeks, for those who are in Merchant Houses and have access to such a wide variety of talents and instruction? This would reflect the know-how of the Merchant Houses. Better pay? What would make the role sexy again? Obviously, not all master crafters are Family members, so you can't all have a NPC....

[Gimfalisette]

Perhaps a reduction of mastercrafting times from one month to two weeks, for those who are in Merchant Houses and have access to such a wide variety of talents and instruction?

Err, no. No changing the rules in order to compensate for the failings of our abysmal clan system.

The things I see as disadvantages to joining a GMH for crafters:

-- Unlimited access to 1000 of "a piece of bone" since the GMH has been storing those for some reason since Tek was a boy, but -more- limited access to materials that can be purchased from the market or foraged or logged, since those things all depend on PC leadership to organize. I don't want to sit on my ass, not practicing my skills for a few RL weeks while the PC leadership does little to supply me with materials.

-- I can make a lot, lot, LOT more money working for myself than I can make working for the GMH. Not to mention, if they do profit-sharing with me, that often depends on a PC leader to be around to sell the crap I make. So I wait and wait and wait in order to get just a portion of what I'd make on my own.

-- All this vaunted "social RP" depends on having an active cadre of nobles and templars who've been around long enough to have coin to spend on the amazing things I can make. This is spotty at best. And, the crap they usually want made is pretty boring and has nothing to do with Plot or Story. It's just "ooh make me a shiny new armor with my personal symbol on it." It adds nothing to the game long-term. Yeah, in that circumstance I'd rather make things that -I- find interesting.

[Lizzie]

When I had need to learn about the policy of custom items, I did a check to find out why the policy was made (since the posts about the policy showed clearly it was a change from how it used to be).

What I found, was concern that some people were submitting lots of custom things, often, and it was just really hard for staff to keep up, plus some of this stuff is badly written and needs editing and modifications, plus people weren't always following the instructions on submitting them, etc. etc. Multiply the most common problems (one typo and two grammatical errors, for a conservative example), by an *unlimited* amount of items submitted in a single day, by however many characters have crafting skills.

What you end up with, is a staff dedicated to receiving, fixing, and implementing unique objects, and no one left to run the game. So they implemented a policy. I think having a policy is a good idea, however I feel the policy went too far. An arbitrary "only one item per month per Master Crafter, and Master Crafters must ONLY be the merchant primary guild" seems pretty severe. That means if a Red Robe templar wants a new outfit, and wants it unlike anyone else's, to attend the ascension of a Black Robe to the new Highlord and himself to a new Black Robe...he has to do the following:

1. Find a master crafter.
2. Find a master crafter 6 RL months before the event.
3. Find a master crafter 6 RL months before the event, whose "list of submissions already given to the staff" isn't full for the next year.
4. Find a master crafter 6 RL months before the event, whose list isn't already full, who you can somehow magickally guarantee he won't die or retire his character or quit playing, before the things you want are delivered.
5. Accept that you will only get one item at a time, per RL month, and that there is a very real possibility that you will get bored of the role and not even attend that ascension ceremony, and you will have wasted the master crafter's submissions for the next 6 months, which will piss off the master crafter's player, because he only gets one a month and he just wasted it on a red robe who doesn't even log in anymore.
6. Accept that the player of the master crafter will realize #5, and find some way of rejecting the red robe's very generous offer in exchange for the service.

Solution:
Allow more than 1 per month - in fact, change the policies completely. Allow 1 item per month, PER craft mastered...so a master crafter might be able to make a ring for Lord Fancypants, a new dress for Administrator GMH Guy, a new bow for his own Senior Hunter who has just saved three nobles from certain death and deserves something special, damnit.

Allow for occasional flexibility - if a master crafter has proven responsible as a player -and- as a PC...and has proven they can write a description without needing any hand-holding, and their character is asked to create a whole setup for an individual of significant means and significant influence (a *Senior* agent, a *Red* robe templar, a *Senior* Noble...etc)... for a seriously significant occasion (such as the King's Age party for the High templar in Tuluk a couple months ago)...then the staff should be willing to accommodate such a request. And if there are two such requests to the same crafter, and it's something that ICly the crafter -would- be able to do in the time provided, then hey - it's once or twice a RL year..and there's only one master crafter who is submitting it, so why the heck not?

I would also suggest, that if a merchant guild player pick a crafting subguild..then that craft should become "master" quality a whole lot quicker than usual. If it doesn't already. I would also also also suggest - that there be some coded indication to the player - via an echo, or perhaps an asterisk next to the related skill, to let the player know that he *does* in fact have master crafter status on that skill. That'll save a whole lot of trouble to staff so players aren't pestering them every month asking "am I a master yet, huh hu huh?"

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Perhaps the PC ordering special items should have criteria to follow, such as one item per ten days played, after 30 days played? Would that help limit the number of special items being asked for, and the workload that staff would be required to evaluate?

See, I think special items should often benefit more than just that PC who wants them, but there is nothing wrong with a PC who wants a personal item or items. Having 'unique cool shit' is a nice boon in any game.

Perhaps, also, merchant skills could be changed that at the cap of the skill, a (M) appears beside the skill, to tell you that you are a master? I think this would be cool across the board, but let's apply it to merchants.

[Fnord]

Another issue is that, without getting too IC, starting in the north is much more viable for a merchant that actually wants to become a master crafter. So if you're playing in the southlands, I think the likelihood of meeting one is even less.

[staggerlee]

Like many roles, it's also not a very rewarding role for those with low playtimes.
I know where I'm at in life these days I'd love to play the game occasionally, but find that both leveling up and getting involved in things take way too much.

I'd play a role like that casually, but it'd take years to get to master craft level while only playing once a week or so.
That's somewhat of a tangent, but not entirely.  My point is that as far as skill trees go it's an end game option, and getting to end game is a very difficult proposition for those of us with limited time on our hands... plus the risk of dying, retiring, or whatever else before you get there.  It's a mud wide problem though, and not related only to this.

[Nyr]

When I had need to learn about the policy of custom items, I did a check to find out why the policy was made (since the posts about the policy showed clearly it was a change from how it used to be).

What I found, was concern that some people were submitting lots of custom things, often, and it was just really hard for staff to keep up, plus some of this stuff is badly written and needs editing and modifications, plus people weren't always following the instructions on submitting them, etc. etc. Multiply the most common problems (one typo and two grammatical errors, for a conservative example), by an *unlimited* amount of items submitted in a single day, by however many characters have crafting skills.

What you end up with, is a staff dedicated to receiving, fixing, and implementing unique objects, and no one left to run the game. So they implemented a policy. I think having a policy is a good idea, however I feel the policy went too far. An arbitrary "only one item per month per Master Crafter, and Master Crafters must ONLY be the merchant primary guild" seems pretty severe.

Some thoughts from a crafting clan staffer:

I don't think the restrictions on master crafters are severe.
 
It's also not so much that master crafters must ONLY be merchant primary guild, but that ONLY merchants can be master crafters.  Master crafter means you are one of the absolute best in the Known World at this particular trade.  You make the best things, you can design your own GOOD things, and you're a highly wanted commodity.  Allowing other guilds to be master crafters is such a rare exception that it never happens.  No other guild is a crafting guild.  No subguild is equal or better than the guild from which the skills are derived from.
Sometimes we do make the occasional exception for major events, and will even build things that aren't built primarily for any person but just for the event (the King's Age Festival had several things that were built primarily for the event itself).

It's not a big deal for staff to tell players they are a master crafter.  It may take a little while, but the actual work required is very little.

I'd always like to see more crafters.  As others have said, though, master crafting is a long-term goal.  It takes some significant time to get to that level of skill.

[Gimfalisette]

To what Lizzie and 7DV said:

Turning master crafters into personalized-item vending machines for nobles and templars is not the solution for making these roles more enjoyable (and thus more often played) for players. As with -any- role in ARM, if you want to attract more PCs to it, then you need better PC leadership and better involvement for those playing that role in Plot and Story.

I don't think the restrictions on master crafters are severe.

I agree with Nyr. The restrictions on master crafting are fine.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Gimf, for those PCs and indeed even Staff that run a merchant house, what sort of things would you suggest as far as Plot and Story that would attract those sorts of players, both Merchant and Hunters? You're always full of clever shit - you tend to have some awesome suggestions.

I wouldn't say that Mastercrafters ought to be 'vending machines', but for whatever reason blah blah blah is being built, I would like to see more master merchants, and obviously, they need to be encouraged. Rather than discussing what they ought to be building, let's discuss how to make being in a merchant house have it's own perks, without invalidating independent merchants.

Right now, apparently, everything seems to lean to the side of independents.

[Lizzie]

I have no trouble with the fact that only a merchant can become a master crafter. I think that's fine. It's just the frequency and variety of "custom items" they're allowed to make seems a bit askew. I mean, if they are a Master Crafter - and they've mastered 6 different crafts, why are they only allowed to submit one item per month? Why not six - one for each craft they've mastered? Or if these custom items are things that -should- take a lot of time making - cut it in half. Tell them they can have three, one from each of his choice of three "mastered" crafts.

That's the thing I feel could be improved on. Or maybe - if you've only mastered 1-2 crafts, you are allowed 1 custom item submission per month. If you have mastered 3-5 craft skills, then you are allowed up to 2 custom item submissions per month. If you've mastered 6-9 craft skills, then you can have up to 3 custom item submissions per month. If you have more than 9, you can have up to 4 custom item submissions per month.

And..you can't have more than 1 submission for the same craft per month, no matter how many you're allowed in total. So 1 clothworker submission, plus 1 jewelry submission, plus 1 armor submission..to make 3 total. But not 3 clothworker submissions in the same month.

I think that still allows the staff to not have to handle kajillions of submissions for custom items, but provides players more motivation to play merchant guild characters, and master crafters more usefulness *as* master crafters, to more people in a shorter duration.

[Gimfalisette]

Gimf, for those PCs and indeed even Staff that run a merchant house, what sort of things would you suggest as far as Plot and Story that would attract those sorts of players, both Merchant and Hunters?

-- First, there must be competent apped or non-apped PC leadership which can recruit, train, and coddle hunter and crafter characters and thus build a team over time. Without the team, the rest of this is moot. The team is the basis for going on plot-related adventures, and provides the trusted social interaction which is so critical to keeping underlings happy with the role. Potentially, the team is the #1 attractor to the clan, but its building is almost always neglected.

-- Second, there must be immortal support for crafter PCs in the form of ongoing training into cool sekrets of the trade, and also implementation of master crafting recipes once that level is reached. (It's highly disappointing to submit a recipe and then see it get lost and never implemented.) With the current staff of the GMHs, I don't see this being a problem in the least, but I'm just pointing out that it's critical to the role. This kind of support usually can't be provided by PC leadership simply because most PC leaders don't necessarily know anything about crafting.

-- Then, PC leaders need to find interesting things for PC crafters and hunters to do. Simply fulfilling standard orders to bring in goudra hide or to make linen garments is not enough to keep these roles interesting. Leaders are quest-givers and should do much more of it. Examples: Learn to X, find Y, bring me Z, talk to Q, investigate T, explore P, buy R, sell G.

-- PC leaders (with the support of imms) should be pursuing plots which will involve their underlings. There are many, many kinds of plots that can potentially be done in ARM which could by design require something to be made by a crafter. Examples: A new shop (it needs to be built by crafters), a war effort (better armor and weapons from crafters), a party (special prizes designed by crafters).

-- Offer PC crafters something indies could never get: The opportunity to work with the rarest materials in the world. That's right, I'm saying go out and get some metal, or some of whatever else is uber-rare, and use it to attract crafters to your organization.

-- When you have that amazing underling who does everything for you and who you'd hate to lose, by Tek's balls, REWARD that person. So the stated salary is just 500 coins per month? Ignore that bitch and pay your favorite crafter much more. Make sure your favorite crafter (or hunter) is introduced to the upper echelons as the elite of the elite. Lavish praise on that person. Play up the specialness of the role to make it more fun. Most PC leaders utterly suck at properly rewarding great underlings; don't be them.

-- Run RPTs, RPTs, and more RPTs. PC leadership should be running at least one RPT a week for clannies, and that goes for any organization. Sometimes RPTs can be just special social hang-out time, sometimes they can be foraging or lumbering trips, and sometimes they should be full on plot-related adventures. But they need to be happening. After adventuring and foraging/lumbering trips, PC leaders should take the whole team to the nearest tavern to get roaringly drunk and tell the populace tall tales about their hijinks. (Best recruiting tactic evar.)

So, not all of that is about Plot and Story, but it's a package deal. The above is what I'd consider the basics of making a GMH crew interesting and attractive to underling characters of both the hunter and crafter type. (Pretty much the basics for a military group as well.)

[FantasyWriter]

I have seen SEVERAL "mid" level crafters lately.  I don't think this will be an issue after a couple of RL months. (unless they all died, of course)

[Halcyon]

Build your team of hunter/gatherers before you hire the crafter(s).  Boredom is a killer.

[Lakota]

I wish subguild crafters could master their particular skill and create unique items, perhaps with twice the time attached to their requests as opposed to the current times of merchants.

I don't see a particular problem with this.

[FantasyWriter]

I wish subguild crafters could master their particular skill and create unique items, perhaps with twice the time attached to their requests as opposed to the current times of merchants.

I don't see a particular problem with this.

Try This: (not an actual quote)

-->Request Tool
-->Character Related
-->Skill Change

Hunter Amos (ranger/jewelrycrafter) Has been a hunter for house Kadius for IC two years.  In addition to becoming a "pack leaded" when the first or second hunters are not around, he has been spending alot of time in the crafting hall, learning from senior agent Belog Kadius.  I believe I have reached the point that I can no longer learn past my skill cap.  I was hoping that my time with Kadius, my lessons from SA Belog, and my objective of becoming a well know jeweler, I could have my skill capped raised.

Thank you for your time,
Amos's Player


Edited to add: <insert logs of training sessions here>

Also anytime you send a request in related to your PC shoot an email off to your clan staff to let them know what is going on.
It the example case about, I would have been in corespondence with my clan staff about your PC's goal, and sending the logs on one at a time to keep them updated on what I was trying to do.



Request tool: Helping players beat loose OOC rules though IC means since....(hold on while I look it up)...April 1, 2006!

[Shalooonsh]

I wish subguild crafters could master their particular skill and create unique items, perhaps with twice the time attached to their requests as opposed to the current times of merchants.

I don't see a particular problem with this.

I'm sorry you don't see a particular problem with this, but we do.  If we implement something like this, we would have approximately 75% of the playerbase sending in master crafting requests every other month due to the preponderance of crafting skills within the subclasses.

The simple fact of the matter is that if you are not Guild Merchant, you do not have the necessary talent to perform the delicate work that a merchant does.  A mage has an innate understanding of magick.  A warrior has an innate grasp of combat maneuvers.  A ranger has an innate ability to read the landscape and now how to survive.  A assassin has an innate understanding on how to make someone stop living.  A merchant has an innate understanding of how to make something better than it is in a raw form.

You can be a plumber for 10 years, and be adequate.  You can be a plumber for 20 years and still be adequate.  You can be a plumber for 30 years, still be adequate, and be looking towards your retirement.  You can see some new kid with a big mustache enter the plumbing arena and fix pipes with a whack of his wrench, jump on a turtle, and save a princess.  The whole while, you'll be screaming at yourself that the things he did were -sooo- simple, why didn't you think of them?  You didn't have the innate understanding of plumbing.  You were Joe the Plumber, he was Mario.

FantasyWriter, while your suggestion is a good one, it's not one that is likely to receive a positive response.  Such an adjustment (and I'm just spitting a number estimate from the top of my head) would probably include no less than one RL year of training exclusively towards getting that adjustment.  Yes, one RL year is several years IC, which is precisely how much you would have to study to get even a fraction of the talent that a guild merchant would begin with.  Even after that work, there is no guarantee.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You can be a plumber for 10 years, and be adequate.  You can be a plumber for 20 years and still be adequate.  You can be a plumber for 30 years, still be adequate, and be looking towards your retirement.  You can see some new kid with a big mustache enter the plumbing arena and fix pipes with a whack of his wrench, jump on a turtle, and save a princess.  The whole while, you'll be screaming at yourself that the things he did were -sooo- simple, why didn't you think of them?  You didn't have the innate understanding of plumbing.  You were Joe the Plumber, he was Mario.

You are a nerd, homes. And you're quoted. That was a wyn paragraph.

[Gimfalisette]

The suggestions to allow all PCs to be master crafters, or to speed up the rate of new items entering the game, just feel like attempts to "dumb down" the game to me. Let merchants have their unique specialness, just like the other guilds do. If you want to see more of them doing your new-item bidding in game, then by Muk, make it worth their time and effort to do. Currently I don't see leaders even attempting to do this. It's not rocket surgery.

[Fathi]

As long as the starting skills for guild_merchant remain what they are, I doubt you will see too many master crafters flourish in the south--unless they travel often or are imported and skilled up elsewhere.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

As long as the starting skills for guild_merchant remain what they are, I doubt you will see too many master crafters flourish in the south--unless they travel often or are imported and skilled up elsewhere.

I seriously wish southern merchants came with different starting skills.  The starting skills for northern merchants make sense, but if you've lived in the south all your life.. where have you even learned some of that stuff?  Seriously.  So many of the other crafts make more logical sense!