The Derth of Master Crafters

[Pantoufle]

Before Tuluk was Tuluk and it was called the Northlands, it place was absolutely brimming with crafters.  I quite liked the atmosphere of it.  Somehow, somewhere along the line craftsmen became less popular except as an on the side (i.e., subguild) trade.  I think at the time it was so popular because Arm had just come out with the crafting skills and people were eager to explore them then.

Just out of curiosity though, what would you all consider as a useful specialized item?  I mean what are people asking for besides fancy cloaks with their personal insignia on it?  What can be special requested that's useful to the game and not just the individual?

[Tisiphone]

I'm just making up examples off the top of my head, so some may be a bit stretched, but:

A new uniform for [insert clan here].

New types of weapon or armor specifically designed for killing [insert beastie here].

[Insert item here] for the crowning achievement of recent events - let's say you just fended off a mantis invasion in Luir's. You want to make a ring of mantis chitin, or maybe a fancy mantis-head incense burner/paperweight or even a new kind of mantis-meat FOOD in celebration of your victory, to distribute to the winners/put on the menu.

The point is, methinks, to get the mastercrafter at least tangentially involved in some real plot, social or otherwise, or at least let them work with some rare and unusual material.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have a dire interest in broadening the array of goods specialized to a specific clan, being that the dress code is stringent. I won't lie, I do have a scheme for a couple of personalized items, but in comparison, the number of things I have tried to order for the good of all in my clan obscures the items I would like for myself that I have not tried to order yet. And they are not 'fancy cloaks'.

That's not to include the items I have suggested to certian Merchant Houses that I would never even use. Tools, implements, foods, etc. The crafting rule is understandable, given that with in a few years, we won't have 1.0. Right?

But it still kinda sucks, and it's even worse that there are no masters in the Merchant Houses, which is where certain people go to obtain what they need.

BTW, Tisiphone is absolutely correct, in every aspect. I want to involve people in stuff. Crafting and new items are something for crafters to focus on, whether it is personal or clan or general stuff.

[jcljules]

Just wanted to add to this--many characters might not even know they're master crafters, since you have to put in a request to be told that you are one. Perhaps something in ginka could tell you if you were one, with a congratulatory message of some sort?

[FantasyWriter]

Just wanted to add to this--many characters might not even know they're master crafters, since you have to put in a request to be told that you are one. Perhaps something in ginka could tell you if you were one, with a congratulatory message of some sort?

That would be nice, Kinda like the new birthday messages.

On the downside, putting in a request lets you AND your staff know that you are a mastercrafter.
Even if something like this were implemented, first think I would do after getting the message would e to shoot off an email to my clan staff.

[jcljules]

I also think rich/powerful characters need to be more interested in fancy, personal things. Nobles need to start asking for clothes with designs of their choosing stitched on them, spice pipes carved in their likeness, etc;

[Delstro]

I think forcing Nobles to spend more of their little stipend on merchants is all well and good. However, I think a better plan is for some people to start bribing Nobles and Templars with custom made for them stuff. I think people should pay master crafters for special stuff to give to the Nobles and Templars. What better way to show you care than to take the time and effort to get them cool free shit?

[FantasyWriter]

I think forcing Nobles to spend more of their little stipend on merchants is all well and good. However, I think a better plan is for some people to start bribing Nobles and Templars with custom made for them stuff. I think people should pay master crafters for special stuff to give to the Nobles and Templars. What better way to show you care than to take the time and effort to get them cool free shit?

Agreed. Nobles and templars should never hae to spend their stipends on clothes/gear.  It should all be given to them as bribes/paypoffs/favors, etc.


PS- I have seen  A LOT of this going on in game lately, which is great.

[Lizzie]

I think forcing Nobles to spend more of their little stipend on merchants is all well and good. However, I think a better plan is for some people to start bribing Nobles and Templars with custom made for them stuff. I think people should pay master crafters for special stuff to give to the Nobles and Templars. What better way to show you care than to take the time and effort to get them cool free shit?

Agreed. Nobles and templars should never hae to spend their stipends on clothes/gear.  It should all be given to them as bribes/paypoffs/favors, etc.


PS- I have seen  A LOT of this going on in game lately, which is great.

Totally completely disagree. The Greater Merchant Houses are in business to make profit. If they had to *give* away the most expensive things they make in exchange for "favor" with every noble that expressed interest in their goods, they would go out of business. The GMHs rely on the combined wealth of people who are in a position to buy expensive things. The vast majority of people in that position are nobles. That is what the noble's stipend is FOR. To spend. That is how the merchant in the GMH can afford to bribe the templar.

[Delstro]

We are not agreeing that the Master Crafter should make them and give the gifts.
We, as in Fantasy Writer and I, are agreeing a THIRD party should pay for the special item and then give it to the Noble/Templar as a bribe/gift. This will allow the Noble/Templar to keep their coin in PC hands and keep RPT going, or get htem going.

[Medena]

I think forcing Nobles to spend more of their little stipend on merchants is all well and good. However, I think a better plan is for some people to start bribing Nobles and Templars with custom made for them stuff. I think people should pay master crafters for special stuff to give to the Nobles and Templars. What better way to show you care than to take the time and effort to get them cool free shit?

Agreed. Nobles and templars should never hae to spend their stipends on clothes/gear.  It should all be given to them as bribes/paypoffs/favors, etc.


PS- I have seen  A LOT of this going on in game lately, which is great.

Totally completely disagree. The Greater Merchant Houses are in business to make profit. If they had to *give* away the most expensive things they make in exchange for "favor" with every noble that expressed interest in their goods, they would go out of business. The GMHs rely on the combined wealth of people who are in a position to buy expensive things. The vast majority of people in that position are nobles. That is what the noble's stipend is FOR. To spend. That is how the merchant in the GMH can afford to bribe the templar.

I don't think either Delstro or FW were suggesting that merchants give things away.  They were suggesting that people other than nobles BUY them FOR the nobles.

[Lizzie]

Oh - well then by all means, spend those sids, and support your local GMH!

[FantasyWriter]

Or your local indie crafters

Think of the GMH like Corporation. (not going to give anything away, because they are going to make their money, anyway)
Indies are "small business" that actually care about their customers, ESPECIALLY if they are in positions of power (the majority of PCs).

Plus indie/GMH competition for clients adds conflict.

[tortall]

Oh - well then by all means, spend those sids, and support your local GMH!

I know when I played a Fale back in 2002ish I got only 5000 an ic year.

Now, from the way I understand things work, at least in the north, most nobles have to use their income to pay other players.

Where are they to get this money to spend on themselves?

Plus, nobles are like celebs. They get free stuff and then when people ask, OHHH WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?! Oh, Merchant Amos Kadius made it himself just for me. Maybe he can make you something pretty too!

[Malken]

You probably need to hire good crafters to turn your yearly into a bigger income.

I know that the last Chosen that was employing me, made a lot of money because my PC only wanted his protection, and in exchange, my PC was more than happy to give him a percentage of how much he'd make that month.

That noble employing my PC merchant was probably getting an extra 2000 'sids or so extra a month.

But, yes, good luck getting yourself a competent crafter who wants to work for a noble.

You need to put that crafter in some sort of danger, so that he seeks protection and that you can be that protection for him.

Otherwise, half the playerbase makes more a real life week than most nobles will make in an IC year 

[tortall]

You probably need to hire good crafters to turn your yearly into a bigger income.

I know that the last Chosen that was employing me, made a lot of money because my PC only wanted his protection, and in exchange, my PC was more than happy to give him a percentage of how much he'd make that month.

That noble employing my PC merchant was probably getting an extra 2000 'sids or so extra a month.

But, yes, good luck getting yourself a competent crafter who wants to work for a noble.

You need to put that crafter in some sort of danger, so that he seeks protection and that you can be that protection for him.

Otherwise, half the playerbase makes more a real life week than most nobles will make in an IC year 

So true. Hear that nobles? Mal just told you how to get rich like those poor commoners under you.


Hear that crafters? No need to put yourself in danger, thus more time to make stuff. PLUS you get more than that measly 300 sid ig month pay.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This is really bullshit. Crafters should want to work for the relevant Merchant Houses. Period. There should be perks for doing so. Merchant Houses need to reevaluate their policies. In certian circles, people should not have to hunt down people to get stuff.

[Malken]

This is really bullshit. Crafters should want to work for the relevant Merchant Houses. Period. There should be perks for doing so. Merchant Houses need to reevaluate their policies. In certian circles, people should not have to hunt down people to get stuff.

Many things should get reevaluated on Armageddon, but they don't, so you have to go with what you have.

Trust me when I tell you that it's almost a joke to play a master crafter in a GMH.

I made a fortune as one, by myself, and a bit less as a partisan of a Chosen, but still enough to make it worthwhile.

When I joined a Merchant House, I think I made something like 250 'sids in two weeks total.

When a master crafted item came up, they were all fighting to see what share should be given to me, and I had absolutely no perks in staying in that House.

I could have gone on my own and make the 8000-12000 profit just the same, instead of getting something like 20% and being told exactly what I needed to do, instead of picking it myself.

I'm absolutely surprised to see the amount of merchant PCs currently in game, I just couldn't wait to get out of that role myself when I was one of the only one a few months ago.

I can make nearly as much as I could with my merchant PC with just a subclass craft.

[Lizzie]

Yes Malken, if your goal is to get rich, then you can definitely do better as an independent, than as an employee of a GMH (family member mileage may vary).

It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes. We have crafters who use the GMHs as tools to rob from the compounds, or stockpile things at a discount, then leave and make a fortune with very little effort. We have crafters whose players will avoid working for the prestige, just because their players want to make sure their character is "he who dies with the most stuff."

I just think that's very sad.

This message sponsored by GMH Local 67.

[Ghost]

Indies often make more than clanned people.  However, those examples malken gave sound a little too much

[Lizzie]

What Malken says is basically true Ghost. I just think it's a real shame that the "I can make 10,000 sids in a few RL weeks why would my character want to work for Kadius?" mindset is so prevalent among the playerbase. I KNOW I can make that much, easy. I've done it. But it gets boring, and it's pretty pointless having 20,000 sids in the bank if all you're doing is crafting the same half-dozen things all day and selling them to NPC merchants. It gets boring. And frustrating. I wasn't even playing a master crafter. Hell I wasn't even playing a merchant. I just had a crafter subguild and I was getting rich quick. It got very old, very fast. I'd much rather play the game in the -spirit- in which it was intended, rather than groove on the coded coinage, now. My character probably won't ever be as rich as Malken's was. But I'd gladly play "for the prestige" over the sids anyday, now that I've had a few tastes of the latter.

[FantasyWriter]

I have also noticed that indie crafters spend more time grebbing, crafting and selling, and house crafters seem to spend more time bar sitting while on the clock (since they don't have things like food water, and a place to live to worry about).  That COULD be why they don't make any money.

[Gimfalisette]

Except that there isn't any prestige in working for a GMH. No one's going to be all impressed because someone works for a GMH, seriously.

There also aren't any perks to working for a GMH, and there are significant disadvantages, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

It's all well and good to go on carping about "the spirit of the game," but it doesn't change anything. If clan leaders don't offer real advantages to signing up, players will continue to not sign up.

Personally, you wouldn't catch me dead playing a minion-crafter (mastercrafter or otherwise) in a GMH right now.

[Malken]

Yes Malken, if your goal is to get rich, then you can definitely do better as an independent, than as an employee of a GMH (family member mileage may vary).

It's just really REALLY sad that we players are reduced to playing characters who exist to get rich, while neglecting the prestige our characters will have by being able to say, proudly, "I am a Salarr weaponsmith." Or "I am a Kadian jeweler." Instead, there are crafters who use the GMHs as tools to learn new things, then leave and create new characters who show up out of the box knowing the recipes. We have crafters who use the GMHs as tools to rob from the compounds, or stockpile things at a discount, then leave and make a fortune with very little effort. We have crafters whose players will avoid working for the prestige, just because their players want to make sure their character is "he who dies with the most stuff."

I just think that's very sad.

This message sponsored by GMH Local 67.

We both know that I played for a very long time only for the sake of prestige, and it certainly didn't come from being in a GMH, there's just not that much prestige in it, so..  

But money is what usually gets you the prestige in the end.. You can tell me that my numbers are too much or I'm playing wrong, but the proof is in the pudding.

Look at all the merchants currently in game, the ones that are in the GMH are most often first time merchant players who aren't sure what to do, and when they realize that
everyone else is making a thousand 'sids a day being an independant, they quickly leave it.. Wishful thinking from the playerbase never makes anything better.

I gotta go eat, I don't play a merchant anymore and I certainly don't want to play one again for a very long time, I'm just saying what my experience was like, and my experience was very recent.

Yah, what Gimf says.

[staggerlee]

I think the arguments apply to most clans to be honest.  I feel like I'm making huge sacrifices by joining a clan... that's not right.