Conditionally populated rooms - Discussion

[Morgenes]

Use this thread to discuss the Staff Announcement about 'Conditionally populated rooms'

Edited to include link to announcement post.

[Krath]

Badass!

[Sephiroto]

Rowar!  Yes!

[brytta.leofa]

Morgenes, I'll do anything you want.  Anything.

[Cutthroat]

Awesome.

Morgenes, I'll do anything you want.  Anything.

[brytta.leofa]

Now, as somebody's suggested: if this leads to people spamwalking everywhere after dark, that's probably not optimal.  Though the movement delay may be enough for the alert mugger.

[Desertman]

This rocks so hard.

[Zoan]

Looks like the PC Militia might actually see some crime to fight now!

[manonfire]

If you commit a crime in a room with an NPC soldier/templar, will you still get flagged?

Ohh, how I love the implications of this.

[brytta.leofa]

And the wave of half-giant warrior/thug apps begins...

As well as nighttime sweeps by the PC militia...of areas frequented by the upper crust.

[Delstro]

I just got a concussion from how hard I hit my head on the ceiling when I jumped for joy at this new code change.

[Morgenes]

If you commit a crime in a room with an NPC soldier/templar, will you still get flagged?

As stated, this does not change how the code works with regards to NPC soldiers/templars.  If they are in the room, and can witness the crime, they will incriminate you.

[manonfire]

If you commit a crime in a room with an NPC soldier/templar, will you still get flagged?

As stated, this does not change how the code works with regards to NPC soldiers/templars.  If they are in the room, and can witness the crime, they will incriminate you.

You're right, it states that explicitly.

See what happens when you excite players? Reading comprehension goes to shit.

[nyrk]

If you commit a crime in a room with an NPC soldier/templar, will you still get flagged?

As stated, this does not change how the code works with regards to NPC soldiers/templars.  If they are in the room, and can witness the crime, they will incriminate you.

So if you light a torch, does the vis of the room goes to good, and you can be crim-flagged?

[Reiloth]

I just shat everywhere.

[Qzzrbl]

If you commit a crime in a room with an NPC soldier/templar, will you still get flagged?

As stated, this does not change how the code works with regards to NPC soldiers/templars.  If they are in the room, and can witness the crime, they will incriminate you.

So if you light a torch, does the vis of the room goes to good, and you can be crim-flagged?

From my understanding, if it's late at night or before dawn, and if no guards or templars are present, you can pretty much do whatever you want without fear of crim code, torch or not.

If it's daytime, and you find a dark room to murder someone in, and you light a torch beforehand, I'm pretty sure you'll wind up flagged.

[palomar]

I like it. However, I think there are rooms that could be considered to be populated during the dark hours (some parts of commons and bazaars come to mind). And I mean populated enough to be part of the crime code.

[Bogre]

Awesome.

[Morgenes]

So if you light a torch, does the vis of the room goes to good, and you can be crim-flagged?

Sorry, I realize that the post isn't really clear.  The two points are in an 'or' relationship.  If the visibility is bad OR it's late at night OR it's before dawn.

To specifically answer your question, if you have a torch out and it's late at night or before dawn, the 'populated' room flag won't incriminate you.

If for whatever reason the visibility is poor and you somehow correct it, and it's NOT night time, you will be incriminated.

[nyrk]

So if you light a torch, does the vis of the room goes to good, and you can be crim-flagged?

Sorry, I realize that the post isn't really clear.  The two points are in an 'or' relationship.  If the visibility is bad OR it's late at night OR it's before dawn.

To specifically answer your question, if you have a torch out and it's late at night or before dawn, the 'populated' room flag won't incriminate you.

If for whatever reason the visibility is poor and you somehow correct it, and it's NOT night time, you will be incriminated.

OK, so effectively the virtual population all goes home at night.

[mattrious]

So. Can I use this thread to start recruiting for the 'Rinth and its shady organizations? Seriously, this is a huge and awesome change for the bad guys!! Woot!

- matt.

[Desertman]

Makes perfect sense to me.

Criminals mug people at night because of the low visibility and reduced chance of getting caught as such, IRL.

Should be the same way in game.

We also have sandstorms that cut visibility and they are frequent, it wouldnt take criminals long to figure out thats a good time to mug folks too.

I love this idea. I absolutely love it.

This will probably keep pc templars from stacking 15 npc soldiers from around the city at "crim points." Because the soldiers are actually needed in other areas now.

I also cant WAIT to see the organized PC gangs roaming the night darkened streets looking for would be victims, the way I have always imagined the rough streets of Zalanthas should be.

[brytta.leofa]

I also can't WAIT to see the organized PC gangs roaming the night darkened streets looking for would be victims, the way I have always imagined the rough streets of Zalanthas should be.

Oh, this.  I once wanted to play a southside thug, but that's just not a very viable role.


Another concern, though: impending NPC slaughter if they don't know to go indoors at night.

[Desertman]

Another concern, though: impending NPC slaughter if they don't know to go indoors at night.

I didnt think about this.

I would hate for the Commons to suddenly have corpses laying everywhere...like another place already that I wont mention

[Reiloth]

I also can't WAIT to see the organized PC gangs roaming the night darkened streets looking for would be victims, the way I have always imagined the rough streets of Zalanthas should be.

Oh, this.  I once wanted to play a southside thug, but that's just not a very viable role.


Another concern, though: impending NPC slaughter if they don't know to go indoors at night.

That would probably lead to impending PC slaughter, when the Militia finds out who dunnit. And they will find out.

I'm also sure IMM's will keep a close watch on this topside, to make sure twinky twinks don't get their rocks off hacking and slashing.

I think this change is fuggin' awesome.

[Lizzie]

1. I am looking forward to an actual risk of getting robbed. Up until this point, I have never actually -felt- any such risk.

2. I hope I don't end up being the victim, when I do feel the risk!

3. I am looking forward to being the first person to come across a corpse that still has something on him worth looting, after the killer has grabbed the dead guy's coins and pack and run away.

4. I am hoping that would-be killers will consider that loitering near a corpse to methodically pick the guy completely naked, -should- icly give the virtual, NPC, and PC population a reason to wonder about the looter's innocence in the scene. Just remember - if people see you grabbing a dead guy's coins, people are gonna assume you're probably the guy who killed him.

[LittleLostThief]

I hope this gives everyone a proper, healthy fear of the dark.

Woe to the spamming quickwalk macro havin' night ignorers.

Now half of you must go forward and join/create gangs to work the late hours!

[Sephiroto]

What I also like about this is the fact that it gives us the option to fight back against muggers without getting wanted ourselves. (assuming the conditions for avoiding the crim flagging are met).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So if you light a torch, does the vis of the room goes to good, and you can be crim-flagged?

Sorry, I realize that the post isn't really clear.  The two points are in an 'or' relationship.  If the visibility is bad OR it's late at night OR it's before dawn.

To specifically answer your question, if you have a torch out and it's late at night or before dawn, the 'populated' room flag won't incriminate you.

If for whatever reason the visibility is poor and you somehow correct it, and it's NOT night time, you will be incriminated.

I am happy about the concept behind this. I'd love to see some degrees go in over time, but this is real good, and I am pleased, Morg.

[brytta.leofa]

1. I am looking forward to an actual risk of getting robbed. Up until this point, I have never actually -felt- any such risk.

A thousand times ditto.  (I was, early on, Afraid of the Alleys, but stopped being when nothing ever happened.)

4. I am hoping that would-be killers will consider that loitering near a corpse to methodically pick the guy completely naked, -should- icly give the virtual, NPC, and PC population a reason to wonder about the looter's innocence in the scene.

Some ideas along these lines (sorry, Allanak-centric):
- Make taking items from a corpse a crimflaggable offense.
- Create a few NPC crews that comb the city and haul corpses to Meleth's Circle.
- Add creepy environmental echoes to describe the 'rinth-rats creeping about Meleth's Circle by night.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

- Make taking items from a corpse a crimflaggable offense.
Hell no.
- Create a few NPC crews that comb the city and haul corpses to Meleth's Circle.
- Add creepy environmental echoes to describe the 'rinth-rats creeping about Meleth's Circle by night.
Yes to everything else.

[Nez]

Can there be a command that would allow you to make a judgement call on whether or not the place is populated or not ?

assess here.
The place seems empty and dark. Odds are, nobody will see you do anything.
There are numerous people in this room, any misdeed will surely be reported.
There are lawmen right infront of you. Anything illegal will be reacted to right away.

Or therebouts.

[Desertman]

I would rather not see an "Assess" feature for everything in game.

That would kind of take the fun out of it in some ways.

"Ok, now codedly can I get away with this? Let me just assess."

"Oh good, here I go."

I much prefer...

"The situtation feels right, if it goes sour I got my escape plan, lets pull this job."

[brytta.leofa]

- Make taking items from a corpse a crimflaggable offense.

Hell no.

I think I have to agree, though I hate seeing corpses treated so cavalierly.

The consequences of being crimflagged are too dire.  We lose enough people to kick-while-brawling.

[KIA]

This is exactly what I had in mind. Props 2 Morgenes!

[nyrk]

I would rather not see an "Assess" feature for everything in game.

That would kind of take the fun out of it in some ways.

"Ok, now codedly can I get away with this? Let me just assess."

"Oh good, here I go."

I much prefer...

"The situtation feels right, if it goes sour I got my escape plan, lets pull this job."

I disagree.  If there is something that should be patently obvious to the player's character, that information should be available through coded methods.

assess room should give info about the room.  If it is populated with vNPC's it should give you an idea of how many, but just that,  I don't think it should give you an assessment on how successful your potentially criminal activities would be however.

[Qzzrbl]

Someone write up an Allanakki Slasher already!

[Tisiphone]

This is beautiful. It makes night-time so much more cut-throat. Imagine, the muggers come out and case someone walking past their check-point...just to find out that that someone is a gemmer. Who won't get crimflagged at night for casting.

(Though, there are magickal effects I think should get you crimmed inside a city anyway, because they're perceptible even with bad vision or no light.)

[Qzzrbl]

Are these changes currently in effect, or are we waiting for the next reboot?

[Morgenes]

Are these changes currently in effect, or are we waiting for the next reboot?

Next reboot.

[manonfire]

Are these changes currently in effect, or are we waiting for the next reboot?

Next reboot.

Good to know. I'll lay off on my citywide crime spree until then.

[Reiloth]

This is beautiful. It makes night-time so much more cut-throat. Imagine, the muggers come out and case someone walking past their check-point...just to find out that that someone is a gemmer. Who won't get crimflagged at night for casting.

(Though, there are magickal effects I think should get you crimmed inside a city anyway, because they're perceptible even with bad vision or no light.)

Morg, any thoughts on this?

I agree that a full on fireball would attract attention from soldiers blocks down, especially in Allanak where magick outside of Temples is not permitted.

That goes double for Tuluk, where Magick would make people shit their pants for miles around.

I think magick should be excepted, or have a very high chance of still getting crimflagged.

I can't wait for this to go in.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Rockin' my socks.

[FantasyWriter]

- Create a few NPC crews that comb the city and haul corpses to Meleth's Circle.

Code Select Expand


The sandcloth cloaked peasant walks in from the west drawing a small flat cart.

The sandcloth cloaked peasant shouts in southern-accented Sirihish,
    "Bring out ya dead!  Bring out ya dead!

[fourTwenty]

- Create a few NPC crews that comb the city and haul corpses to Meleth's Circle.

Code Select Expand


The sandcloth cloaked peasant walks in from the west drawing a small flat cart.

The sandcloth cloaked peasant shouts in southern-accented Sirihish,
    "Bring out ya dead!  Bring out ya dead!

Please no! Finding an non-stripped corpse is like winning the Zalanthian lottery.

[brytta.leofa]

Who won't get crimflagged at night for casting.

OH NOES

[touringCompl3t3]

Morgenes you are the man.

[Riev]

Damnit, now I -really- want to play that Burglar I've always wanted to play.

Am I doomed to playing characters barely living past the "horribly-animated NPC" style of play because I always die off easily? =\

[fourTwenty]

Every time I finally think okay that's the last time I play <guild> something comes along and pulls me right back in.

[number13]

Playing a criminal -and- a militia member just got a lot more exciting.  Awesome.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I naively hope this will lead to more muggings rather than more corpses, but I'm going to go ahead and sincerely doubt it.

[musashi]

Great code change! I just do hope that NPC whole murder is kept to a minimum ...

Rocking my socks Morg. Rocking my socks!

[brytta.leofa]

Playing a criminal -and- a militia member just got a lot more exciting.

Naw; that's always been pretty exciting.

[solera]

street brawls

[Zoan]

Playing a criminal -and- a militia member at the same time just got a lot more exciting.  Awesome.

Fixed.

[Zharal]

I am so relived that this situation has finally been addressed.  I've been playing since 98 and the
one placement in the game that drove me nuts was the crime flags for populated areas.  It always
seemed to make it damn near imposible to be a criminal starting out and even as a long lived character
it was always a high risk that would land you dead or in the hands of the templarete.  I've played my
share of sneaks and thieves and most have died due to crim flagging for a situation that could or could
not have been witnessed.  Finnally a little more reality..  And last but least now I can do some things I've
always wanted to mess around with..  Watch your back folks.... 

[Riev]

I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. If the time is Late at Night or Before Dawn, there is no coded virtual population to see you commit the crime.... so..

If there is an NPC in some lone alleyway or something, and I throw a dart at his nut sack, or attempt to cut off his 'sid purse, unless there is a solider in the room with me, or with the target, its pretty much a free-for-all? What if there is more than one NPC in the room?

[Clearsighted]

This is probably one of, if not, the best change I've ever seen. I always felt Armageddon was far too efficient a police state before this. Almost like the Minority Report, except they knew you were guilty a split second after instead of before.

[jcljules]

I love this code change. 

[Nez]

The rooms with gate guards should be an exception to this rule in my opinion. Meaning, that the entrance to compounds and such similar like should always be considered populated.

[Yokunama]

I likes.

[Morgenes]

The rooms with gate guards should be an exception to this rule in my opinion. Meaning, that the entrance to compounds and such similar like should always be considered populated.

If there is a soldier there, they will be reported.

[brytta.leofa]

The rooms with gate guards should be an exception to this rule in my opinion. Meaning, that the entrance to compounds and such similar like should always be considered populated.

If there is a soldier there, they will be reported.

But clan guards don't currently count, right?

[Morgenes]

The rooms with gate guards should be an exception to this rule in my opinion. Meaning, that the entrance to compounds and such similar like should always be considered populated.

If there is a soldier there, they will be reported.

But clan guards don't currently count, right?

No

[Nez]

The rooms with gate guards should be an exception to this rule in my opinion. Meaning, that the entrance to compounds and such similar like should always be considered populated.

If there is a soldier there, they will be reported.

But clan guards don't currently count, right?

No

Could they count? Please? Pretty please? Pretty please with a Kalan on top?  Compound guards are already not so difficult to take out, and now it's possible to do it with even less risk. Once you figure out the militia patrol schedule. Nyr made all the right arguments in the 'ask the staff' thread about it.

[jcljules]

The rooms with gate guards should be an exception to this rule in my opinion. Meaning, that the entrance to compounds and such similar like should always be considered populated.

If there is a soldier there, they will be reported.

But clan guards don't currently count, right?

No

Could they count? Please? Pretty please? Pretty please with a Kalan on top?  Compound guards are already not so difficult to take out, and now it's possible to do it with even less risk. Once you figure out the militia patrol schedule. Nyr made all the right arguments in the 'ask the staff' thread about it.

I agree with this.

[Clearsighted]

The rooms with gate guards should be an exception to this rule in my opinion. Meaning, that the entrance to compounds and such similar like should always be considered populated.

If there is a soldier there, they will be reported.

But clan guards don't currently count, right?

No

Could they count? Please? Pretty please? Pretty please with a Kalan on top?  Compound guards are already not so difficult to take out, and now it's possible to do it with even less risk. Once you figure out the militia patrol schedule. Nyr made all the right arguments in the 'ask the staff' thread about it.

I agree, owing to the nature of compound security. Right now it's just too easy to cave in a guy's skull and grab his key, because he's standing out there all by his lonesome.

[UnderSeven]

I agree about compound security.  The fact that npcs are stupid means we need to have code make some considerations for them.   A compound npc guard isn't gong to stand there while they are attacked.  They're going to make a scene.  Crim code should count with them to reflect this.

[a strange shadow]

I agree about compound security.  The fact that npcs are stupid means we need to have code make some considerations for them.   A compound npc guard isn't gong to stand there while they are attacked.  They're going to make a scene.  Crim code should count with them to reflect this.

This.

[KIA]

I'm largely in favor of pure anarchy and murder sprees, but I kind of get the sense that this compound-guard idea is warranted.

The other route to take is to put more than just one guard out in front of the compounds so they have a fighting chance. That would be an IC reflection of the fact that nights are getting rougher the known world over.

Even without the wanted flags, there'd be IC hell to pay in the long run for anyone taking attacking a merchant house like that in the city. But that may not stop the twinkiewinks.

KIA

[Reiloth]

I'm largely in favor of pure anarchy and murder sprees, but I kind of get the sense that this compound-guard idea is warranted.

The other route to take is to put more than just one guard out in front of the compounds so they have a fighting chance. That would be an IC reflection of the fact that nights are getting rougher the known world over.

Even without the wanted flags, there'd be IC hell to pay in the long run for anyone taking attacking a merchant house like that in the city. But that may not stop the twinkiewinks.

KIA

I'd prefer this.

If a group of organized criminals decide they want to break into the Salarri compound, part of their plan will be hitting those gate guards with heramide darts. If they succeed, no one will make a peep. If they don't, the NPC's should probably be coded to yell their fucking heads off, and alert the rest of the compound.

I'm in support of making compound gate guards more badass, than making them reliant on the all-seeing, all-knowing crim code.

It isn't realistic to see:

>throw dagger guard
You toss a dagger, but miss like a frickin' newb!
You are now wanted in your entire city state by every single soldier known to mankind within five miliseconds, even though its night-time, the guard didn't get a good look, and you were wearing a mask and a hood.

You think:
"Shit."

[brytta.leofa]

>throw dagger guard
You toss a dagger, but miss like a frickin' newb!

Neither insane gate-guard skills no city-wide crime code, but rather:

A green-eyed gate guard shouts, gutturally, in sirihish,
  "GUARDS! T' th' gate!"
A green-eyed gate guard unslings a tower shield from her back and ducks behind it.
The rugged, muscular half-giant opens a bone-braced agafari gate from the other side.
Five burly dwarven hunters and a pajama-clad half-elf arrive from the north, looking collectively enraged.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
The rugged, muscular half-giant closes a bone-braced agafari gate from the other side.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
A pajama-clad half-elf intently scans the area.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
> think New plan!; run

[FantasyWriter]

Five burly dwarven hunters and a pajama-clad half-elf arrive from the north, looking collectively enraged.

A pajama-clad half-elf intently scans the area.

Still laughing.

[Reiloth]

>throw dagger guard
You toss a dagger, but miss like a frickin' newb!

Neither insane gate-guard skills no city-wide crime code, but rather:

A green-eyed gate guard shouts, gutturally, in sirihish,
  "GUARDS! T' th' gate!"
A green-eyed gate guard unslings a tower shield from her back and ducks behind it.
The rugged, muscular half-giant opens a bone-braced agafari gate from the other side.
Five burly dwarven hunters and a pajama-clad half-elf arrive from the north, looking collectively enraged.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
The rugged, muscular half-giant closes a bone-braced agafari gate from the other side.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
A pajama-clad half-elf intently scans the area.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
A burly dwarven hunter intently scans the area.
> think New plan!; run

I'm largely in favor of this.

[Qzzrbl]

So basically give every compound their own little crim-code for their guards?

I approve.

[FantasyWriter]

So basically give every compound their own little crim-code for their guards?

I approve.

Me Likes.

[jmordetsky]

I have waited so long for this.

So very long.

Good shit.

[Qzzrbl]

So the "Anything goes at late night or before dawn with no guards around" thing is currently live, yes?

[AJM]

Mm what a great idea, think of all the death my noob nocturnal characters will now get to experience.

[Reiloth]

I really hope people do not take this to go on a free-for-all rampage, and kill anyone or anything in their way.

Keep it real, people.

Steal, sure. Kill if it makes sense. But this is a test to see if we, as a player base, can handle being given the responsibility to police ourselves.

Something that I think will be very telling for how Arm 2.0's criminal system is set.

[manonfire]

Haven't noticed too much outright violence.

I think it's going well.

[Reiloth]

Haven't noticed too much outright violence.

I think it's going well.

If you think it's going well, i'm frightened to know the reality of the situation.

What have we done...

[Riev]

Haven't noticed too much outright violence.

I think it's going well.

If you think it's going well, i'm frightened to know the reality of the situation.

What have we done...

Its cool. Everything is fine. We have always been at war with Oceania.

[Boggis]

So the "Anything goes at late night or before dawn with no guards around" thing is currently live, yes?

Seems to be. Just a few days ago I saw a certain somebody go around to Merchants Road and calmly start to throw dagger after dagger at the shabby three-fingered mercenary NPC one room away from him, go into the room with the NPC and collect all his daggers before leaving the room again to repeat and repeat until NPC died. Well done sir.

[Qzzrbl]

*Edited snarky stuff*

[Boggis]

Alright I'll edit it a bit to save some poor soul for being fingered for blatant code abuse.

[Qzzrbl]

Alright I'll edit it a bit to save some poor soul for being fingered for blatant code abuse.

Thanks.  ^^

The GDB isn't the place to bust people for code abuse.

Try sending a player complaint.

[brytta.leofa]

Try sending a player complaint.

Player complaint??

You saw a newbie ($guild censored out of consideration for Shallooonsh) twinking out in an antisocial manner.
You were in a quasi-isolated patch of town with no crime code active.

What's our missing step here?  Was he not wearing boots or somethin'?

[Qzzrbl]

Try sending a player complaint.

Player complaint??

You saw a newbie ($guild censored out of consideration for Shallooonsh) twinking out in an antisocial manner.
You were in a quasi-isolated patch of town with no crime code active.

What's our missing step here?  Was he not wearing boots or somethin'?

Well, sending a player complaint is a little better than talking about the IC event and even revealing the clan of the murderous twink on the GDB barely a week after the fact.

Methinks at least.

[fourTwenty]

wish all Can somebody animate this specific dude here. Somebody is taking their sweet time sniping at him and I think they'd get a kick out of it if he started chasing them. I think they're kinda new, it's a tad twinkie.

Sit back. Grab soda. Watch other player get to enjoy that moment of surprise when an NPC starts acting all non-NPCish.

[brytta.leofa]

What I'm suggesting specifically is that vigilante justice works anywhere crime does.

As always, do exercise proper roleplaying discretion.

[Qzzrbl]

What I'm suggesting specifically is that vigilante justice works anywhere crime does.

As always, do exercise proper roleplaying discretion.

Oh!

I see, I see, good thinking.

*thumbs up*

[staggerlee]

What I'm suggesting specifically is that vigilante justice works anywhere crime does.

As always, do exercise proper roleplaying discretion.

I am wondering about miilitia members and members of other organizations with npc guards... it'd be damn unfortunate to see pc guards getting kicked around while the npcs stood a room away, all for the lack of crim code.  It'd be really nice if you could holler and scream and get the attention of a nearby soldier.

[Gimfalisette]

What I'm suggesting specifically is that vigilante justice works anywhere crime does.

As always, do exercise proper roleplaying discretion.

I am wondering about miilitia members and members of other organizations with npc guards... it'd be damn unfortunate to see pc guards getting kicked around while the npcs stood a room away, all for the lack of crim code.  It'd be really nice if you could holler and scream and get the attention of a nearby soldier.

Militia/Legion members are codedly a part of the militia/Legion clan, same as templars, therefore any attack against them should bring the crim code system into play, if I've interpreted the code changes correctly.

[brytta.leofa]

Question:

A attacks B.
As they fight, the sun rises.
Who, if anyone, is crimflagged?

[staggerlee]

What I'm suggesting specifically is that vigilante justice works anywhere crime does.

As always, do exercise proper roleplaying discretion.

I am wondering about miilitia members and members of other organizations with npc guards... it'd be damn unfortunate to see pc guards getting kicked around while the npcs stood a room away, all for the lack of crim code.  It'd be really nice if you could holler and scream and get the attention of a nearby soldier.

Militia/Legion members are codedly a part of the militia/Legion clan, same as templars, therefore any attack against them should bring the crim code system into play, if I've interpreted the code changes correctly.

That would definitely alleviate my concerns.

[Gimfalisette]

Question:

A attacks B.
As they fight, the sun rises.
Who, if anyone, is crimflagged?

Either neither, because combat is already in progress. Or, whoever makes the first attack post-sunrise. Hopefully neither, but it's really a code question.

[Thunkkin]

Question:

A attacks B.
As they fight, the sun rises.
Who, if anyone, is crimflagged?

I think I just reached enlightenment.

[Zoan]

Now you know why Perl programmers are also the greatest philosophical minds on Earth.