Hot Button Issue: Sexism

[AmandaGreathouse]

I personally like making very pretty female pc's. I look at it as being as much an exercise in wish fulfillment as the skinny pale guy who never does much fighting playing the rugged, muscular guy. But I -don't- think it's fair to assume that just because another pc -looks- baddass, or -looks- to be a dainty f-me that they are what they look like. I know someone doesn't have to have 400 pounds of muscle to be deadly, or can, quite possibly, have all the muscle in the world simply because they like strength-training and weight-lifting. I mean, the big muscular guy and the dainty chick, both with no training, well, the muscular probably -is- more likely to kick your ass in a fight, but thats simply due to the muscle mass. IMO. I know that if I can choose what I look like, it'll probably be better than average, I don't think that's any reason to treat those pc's as less than equal IC. I mean, I would be more quick to think, 'she doesn't have any obvious combat skills, she doesn't walk around in loads of armor, and she's not covered in scars, chances are she's either got really good connections, or she is likely close to someone who does, how else would she get by like that?'. That's just me personally. And, to me that goes -either- way. Same for guys as girls, just using the feminine because a) I am a female, and, b) The post about f-me females. And, furthermore, I've noticed that there -are- rather a lot of nice-looking female pcs, and would like to see more of that in male pcs.

Why?  I think people should be allowed to make whichever type of character they want and that's looks included.  That doesn't mean I won't balk at some descriptions that describe their globe like breasts or tiny waist or a man's rugged good looks... but it's their choice.  Personally, I have alot of fun writing up rather unattractive PCs and I feel it's my prerogative to do so.  But I guess that means I just have dashing good looks IRL.

Brandon

Just making a statement of an opinion. That's all. I know I don't want to make some hideous character myself, but more power to the people that want to. Perhaps I just need sleep and ran a little in the opposite direction of what I was going for, or humor doesn't translate well over text. Essentially, it seems like people want to bash that there are -so many- dainty f-me pc females, I just want to know, if it creates equality issues, why not make dainty f-me males rather than expecting others to change the type of pc's they write in order for them to be equal. Did not mean it as a complaint, more as commentary.

[Synthesis]

I'd be satisfied if, when rolling up a fragile f-me PC, you refrained from prioritizing strength and/or endurance first.

It's a little disconcerting when the whip-thin, waifish lass judo tosses your maximum height/weight warrior, takes his back, submits him from behind, and then delivers a critical-strike punch to the testicles.

If you're going to be whip thin and waifish:  agility and wisdom should come first, just to avoid silly variations on the above scenario.  (Note:  this goes for male PCs as well.)

Also note:  declining the prioritization option and then shrugging helplessly at your "lucky roll" does not absolve you of responsibility for the lack of congruence between your stats and your appearance.

[Malken]

I like f-mes and I shelter them and I love them like they are little lost kittehs, then I train them into my little f-me assassins. It's too bad they never really get to that part, though.

Anyway, if you are a f-me, seek me out in game, you start with a 1000 sid bonus if I find you pretty enough.

[Yam]

I'd be satisfied if, when rolling up a fragile f-me PC, you refrained from prioritizing strength and/or endurance first.

It's a little disconcerting when the whip-thin, waifish lass judo tosses your maximum height/weight warrior, takes his back, submits him from behind, and then delivers a critical-strike punch to the testicles.

If you're going to be whip thin and waifish:  agility and wisdom should come first, just to avoid silly variations on the above scenario.  (Note:  this goes for male PCs as well.)

Also note:  declining the prioritization option and then shrugging helplessly at your "lucky roll" does not absolve you of responsibility for the lack of congruence between your stats and your appearance.

But where's the fun in NOT having a fragile looking person with absolutely incredible strength?

[AmandaGreathouse]

I'd be satisfied if, when rolling up a fragile f-me PC, you refrained from prioritizing strength and/or endurance first.

It's a little disconcerting when the whip-thin, waifish lass judo tosses your maximum height/weight warrior, takes his back, submits him from behind, and then delivers a critical-strike punch to the testicles.

If you're going to be whip thin and waifish:  agility and wisdom should come first, just to avoid silly variations on the above scenario.  (Note:  this goes for male PCs as well.)

Also note:  declining the prioritization option and then shrugging helplessly at your "lucky roll" does not absolve you of responsibility for the lack of congruence between your stats and your appearance.

Ok, yes. This makes sense to me. Though my attributes are usually wisdom, endurance, strength, agility. I like making klutzes that walk everywhere, though, too. But yes, it does seem like bullshit for someone to roll with strength as the high attribute. I wouldn't necessarily say the same about endurance, but strength, yes. You make an excellent point.

[Lizzie]

My issue isn't with stats or even necessarily with descriptions (though the flawless pale-skinned *warrior* with a glossy clean tumble of hair down to her KNEES that smell like fresh wildflowers is just - stupid...)

It's with with the flawless pale-skinned warriors who BEHAVE like weak-willed women who are not capable of wiping their asses without a big strong he-man manly man to approve of her actions.

And, it's with the characters of male PCs, who are more than happy to go along with that kind of spineless behavior, thus promoting the sexism that everyone keeps stating so emphatically doesn't exist.

It exists, it's actively promoted, and it is encouraged by people who dive right in and suck it up like it was iced tea on a hot afternoon in Alabama.

Should it exist? Should it be promoted? Should it be encouraged? Nope. But until the majority of people stop making these characters, promoting this behavior, and encouraging it by being active participants, it will continue, and stating that it doesn't exist, doesn't make it stop existing.

[Clearsighted]

Does anyone else find it funny that sexism is so taboo but virulent, hateful racism is everyday?

[Gimfalisette]

Does anyone else find it funny that sexism is so taboo but virulent, hateful racism is everyday?

No, because the racism we have in ARM is nothing like real-world racism. It's based on actual race, not skin color.

[spicemustflow]

Does anyone else find it funny that sexism is so taboo but virulent, hateful racism is everyday?

No, I think we've lost all elven players long ago.

[Dalmeth]

No, because the racism we have in ARM is nothing like real-world racism. It's based on actual race, not skin color.

I disagree.  The racism we experience in ARM is nothing like the racism we've experienced in the last 100 years because it's based on established, independent cultures vying for resources, not an intellectual framework based on ignorance.

[Zoan]

Roleplaying no difference between gender would be easy if every woman in Arm wouldn't randomly go off on bitchy tangents and act like Drama Gurls like their RL counterparts. Then we'd be able to take you all seriously.

EDIT: Yeah that's just a broad statement. I didn't mean to offend anyone. Play by the docs, girls!

[Clearsighted]

No, because the racism we have in ARM is nothing like real-world racism. It's based on actual race, not skin color.

I disagree.  The racism we experience in ARM is nothing like the racism we've experienced in the last 100 years because it's based on established, independent cultures vying for resources, not an intellectual framework based on ignorance.

Dunno. I think most RL racism in the last 100 years has to do with established independent cultures vying for resources, if you look at racism in the world beyond just the American South circa 1960s. Look at Darfur, for instance, or Kosovo. Or the whole Congo thing.

[Gimfalisette]

I disagree.  The racism we experience in ARM is nothing like the racism we've experienced in the last 100 years because it's based on established, independent cultures vying for resources, not an intellectual framework based on ignorance.

Man, Dalmeth, I was trying to get away with a quick, succinct answer...which you have now ruined I'm too -tired- for this crap!

Here's the long version of what I was trying to say:

We don't have sexism in ARM because we have female (and male) players who want to be able to play female (and male) characters, but want a "safe haven" of sorts away from the issues of sexism they regularly face in Real Life.

But, we do have racism in ARM because there is no Real-Life counterpart to elves or dwarves. ARM racism is closer to species-ism than it is to RL racism. It's not about color or surface attributes. Therefore, someone who is African-American or Chinese or whatever can play ARM and deal with the racism of the game without it bringing up issues of real life racism.

The decision to allow an "ism" or not is dependent on how close the hot-button issue is to real life issues.

[Desertman]

My raiders are typically VERY sexist.

My raiders are usually rapists.

(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)

Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.

My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.

So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.

[ale six]

The girliest, sexiest girls are played by guys.

The girliest, sexiest men are played by girls.

The manliest, sexiest men are also played by girls.

[Malken]

The girliest, sexiest girls are played by guys.

My insanely huge AIM list of real life women playing girliest, sexiest girls on Arm and providing me with endless dramaz daily prove j00 wrong!

[staggerlee]

So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.

Well, it's technically okay to blatantly disregard the documentation if there's an extremely compelling ic reason to do so and it's happening with the minority of characters, rather than being the norm.
If it's happening consistently it is a problem.  If everyone uses "but it's ic for my pc" as an excuse, we may as well not have docs at all.   

Is it okay for me to play all of my elves as short, nature loving hippies that love magick and ride mounts?  It completely disregards the documentation, but I'm sure I could write a convincing character history to justify it and keep it ic!

I don't think that advising people on the forum to disregard documentation is going to do anything positive at all for the game.  I'd much rather that people actually tried to have fun while playing by the documentation instead of claiming to be the exception to the rule ever time to justify their continued inappropriate behaviour.


Edited to clarify: That's not just aimed at dman, it also goes for silky smooth beautiful people, magick loving commoners and everything else disregarding the docs.

[touringCompl3t3]

There's total gender neutrality on Zalanthas.

If it makes you feel better to play a male who gets pregnant, I say go ahead and do it.

[Barzalene]

My raiders are typically VERY sexist.

My raiders are usually rapists.

(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)

Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.

My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.

So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.

Some of the above mentioned sexist raiders seemed to hold some women in higher regard than that. Or maybe they were just faking it.

[ale six]

There's total gender neutrality on Zalanthas.

If it makes you feel better to play a male who gets pregnant, I say go ahead and do it.

False.

[Clearsighted]

My raiders are typically VERY sexist.

My raiders are usually rapists.

(I only play straight characters, so, yeah)

Its hard for me to play a mean raider rapist without being sexist.

My PC's consider the opposite sex nothing but a vessel for his own enjoyment. Something he catches, like prey, like a lesser creature, then holds down, and gets his enjoyment, before killing them. Its hard to treat that object like it isnt naturally designed to be your subordinant and still play the role realistically.

So yeah, its ok to be extremely sexist sometimes, depending on the PC.

There are some who would claim that not raping men and women equally means you are blatantly running roughshod over the docs and are a horrible Arm player because of it.

So if I'm playing a merchant and you don't rape my PC, expect me to be extremely offended at your sexist intolerance.

/Sarcasm
//Or was it?

[Thunkkin]

If it makes you feel better to play a male who gets pregnant, I say go ahead and do it.

New dwarven focus!

[Bluefae]

[Probably more appropriate for "Ask the Staff", but I'm dropping it in here anyway.]

     On the topic of sexual roles and the lack thereof:  what's the idea behind a "feminine pair of shoes" or whatever that exact article of footwear is?  What does "feminine" mean in a world like Zalanthas, anyway?  Any old-timers want to maybe clear this up, from a game-evolution perspective?  I can't remember for certain if any article of clothing is tagged as "masculine", but the same question would apply.
     Note the clothing isn't "a female pair of shoes".  To me, that would simply mean a pair of shoes that it is culturally-warranted to wear, the same way that even in Zalanthas, it seems women are the only folks typically wearing dresses.  The word "feminine" has connotations that "female" doesn't.

[Sokotra]

Wow, I think we are trying to get a little too deep here.  I think the feminine shoes just means they are girly shoes.  Feel free to wear them if you have a male PC, I guess.  Not my cup of tea, exactly... but I won't say anything except "nice shoes".  Heh.

[brytta.leofa]

> eq
<worn in hair>    an ivory hair pin
<worn on body>  a low-cut red blouse
<worn on legs>   a chitin-reinforced leather skirt
<worn on ankle> a small, jade songbird tattoo
<worn on feet>   a feminine pair of leather shoes

> em Pushing through the swinging doors, @ stands facing ~muscular, hands on hips, feet spread, and jutting jaw set.
> l muscular [studying !muscular with a hard-eyed gaze]
> say (gruffly) Name's Amos. I heard tell you was lookin' for some badmen.