Hot Button Issue: Sexism

[Ampere]

I've encountered some players who take on an attitude of TOTAL gender neutrality.  Going so far as to attack anyone who would be offended by someone calling a man a woman; or vice versa.

This IMHO is fucking retarded.

The gender pomo police are far more unlikely to exist in this harsh environment.

Sexual division of labour: Women spurt kids/raise kids (generally).  Men forage while their partner spurts/raises kids.

Commonalities between those of the same sex invariably lead to cultural differences between the sexes.

This sort of reality in no way suggests the superiority of one sex over the other; which I feel was the true intention of the docs relating to sexism.


Thanks.

[Yam]

There is no sexism in Zalanthas.

Period.

End of story.

[Synthesis]

Edited:  A picture is worth a thousand words?

[Ampere]

I'm pretty sure that's what I'm saying.

But unfortunately people take it to mean that there's no difference between the sexes.

[Yam]

I'm pretty sure that's what I'm saying.

But unfortunately people take it to mean that there's no difference between the sexes.

Well then, to make it more clear, there is total gender neutrality on Zalanthas.

[Synthesis]

The docs and the Staff have clearly stated, time and TIME AGAIN:

There is no difference, beyond the physical appearance and the fact that women bear children.

There are no cultural differences, period.  Women don't raise children just because they bear them.  Men aren't any more macho than women.  Women aren't any more docile or demure than men.  They do the same jobs, drink the same ale, shovel the same shit, and kick the same amount of ass.

The same applies for sexual preferences, if I recall correctly:  homosexuality isn't perceived any differently than heterosexuality, except perhaps where a child is expected, but in that situation, I suppose arrangements could easily be made.

This is actually one of the topics I'm fairly sick of hearing about.  GET OVER IT, seriously.

[Ampere]

Fine. I've reviewed other forums and it is quite clear.

I must remind myself that we're dealing with aliens, not terrans.

Please don't pull a Catherine Mackinnon and equate the cultural differences between genders to sexism.  Sexism sucks; pride is empowering.


(tangent alert)

Child rearing men have been known to breast feed (pygmies central africa); I would love to see some male wetnurses walking around.

[Mood]

Hey, look.

It's this thread again.

[Gimfalisette]

There are a few cultural differences between genders...or specific roles for the different genders, if you will...but they exist as portions of organizational/political structures.

There are no general cultural assumptions about gender roles or what it "means" to be male or female in Zalanthas. There are very few ideas that one gender or the other should wear or should not wear any type of item. Child-rearing is a "best person for the job" affair. Etc.

This is just something you'll have to deal with in order to be able to play by the docs.

And yeah, Mood, want some popcorn? *passes*

[Yam]

The term sexism encompasses far more than just prejudice, by the by.

[Ampere]

zomg. Last post.

*rolls in an industrial popcorn maker*

Thanks. I had no idea.

[Gimfalisette]

Since it seems like you're new to the issue of sexism here in ARM, Ampere, I'll add something: Whether or not it's "realistic" for there to be no sexism in the game, it was a specific design choice made by staff so that women (and men) could play any roles they wanted without being hampered by applied sexism from the real world. Not everyone wants to have to play a male character in order to roll up that buff warrior, nor does everyone want to have to play a female in order to be a dainty aide. Same thing with homosexuality or bisexuality; people who prefer to play characters of those orientations aren't required to wade through RL prejudices in order to do so.

The whole point being that this kind of inclusiveness means we will attract and retain a broader group of players, especially a higher proportion of female players, than we would otherwise.

[Clearsighted]

I've encountered some players who take on an attitude of TOTAL gender neutrality.  Going so far as to attack anyone who would be offended by someone calling a man a woman; or vise versa.

This IMHO is fucking retarded.

The gender pomo police are far more unlikely to exist in this harsh environment.

Sexual division of labour: Women spurt kids/raise kids (generally).  Men forage while their partner spurts/raises kids.

Commonalities between those of the same sex invariably lead to cultural differences between the sexes.

This sort of reality in no way suggests the superiority of one sex over the other; which I feel was the true intention of the docs relating to sexism.


Thanks.

It's true that in reality, the nasty environment that Zalanthas portrays would result in the most brutal extremities of sexism.

Yet sometime long ago, there was a concerted effort to change that in Armageddon. I remember in past arguments when this was brought up, that some went so far in their defense of it as to claim human biology in Zalanthas was different making men and women equally strong on average and thus no gender role differences. I haven't seen many men giving birth, sadly.

In any case. It's not worth discussing. It's such a dead topic. People will be unyielding stubborn on their own interpretation no matter what.

IMO, if everyone just played dwarves, it wouldn't be a problem.

[Gimfalisette]

There's no "interpretation." It's a matter of playing by the docs.

[Versu]

New forum thread: "How to improve sexist behavior" and "How to be a better racist" !

[Versu]

bad juju. people are bad

[Angela Christine]

IMO, if everyone just played dwarves, it wouldn't be a problem.

Ha!  Those stumpy little bastards are horny as hell.  Female dwarf PCs are pretty rare, so the ones that show up are, um, "popular".

(tangent alert)

Child rearing men have been known to breast feed (pygmies central africa); I would love to see some male wetnurses walking around.

I know, right?  Every few years I post about male lactation, but nobody ever takes me up on it.     I can't make a nursing father, because everyone would know it was me.

http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/miscarticles/milkmen.html
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/nursingfather.html

Dudes have nipples, dudes have glands attached to those nipples.  With the right stimulation male mammals (and females who have not had children) can produce milk.  Pregnancy produces hormones and whatnot that get you ready for lactation, but lactation is possible without pregnancy. 

On Earth females are probably capable of producing more milk, but in Zalanthas males and females are equally capable of doing everything but giving birth, so Zalanthan males ought to be pretty good at breast feeding too.  There are plenty of weird mutations that don't raise an eyebrow in Zalanthas, a guy swollen whose breasts are swollen up to an A cup breast feeding a baby should hardly register at all.

[Clearsighted]

Those links made a shiver run down my spine.

The bad kind. 

[FuSoYa]

I just want to say take it easy on Ampere even though I know it is frustrating to see the same threads pop up again and again.  He seemed to be pretty quick to to back down and let us know he wasn't aware of the situation and I think the same courtesy should be given to him/her.

Brandon

[UnderSeven]

I just want to third on male lactation.

It does sound REALLY GROSS, but it is actually possible on earth and therefore might as well be considered possible in zalanthas.  Though it takes a lot of stimulation I'm told for it to happen.

[Desertman]

I just wanted to post that generally the PC's on Zalanthas are considered the "exception".

The PC's are allowed to be friends with magickers.

The PC's are allowed to not be a religious zealot towards the ruler of their city state.

The VNPC's and most of the NPC's follow all of the rules of the documentation for personality traits.


If you want to play a hardcore sexist PC for whatever reason, go ahead. You are a PC, you are the exception.

Pretty much every PC I play is sexist to an extent.

I run into SO many fragile F'me female PC's it makes it HARD to treat them like they are my equal in game, when the vast majority are playing your typical fragile RL female.

In my defense, I have ran into a few "hardass" female PC's, and I always treat them like "One of the guys"...Those of you who have played merc females with me know that to be true, I'll gut you as fast as the next guy.

And on that same note if I run into male characters that are playing little frilly boys, I treat them like little frilly boys.

I guess what I am saying is technically all character's should not follow gender roles...But since a vast majority that I have seen do, atleast to some extent, I am and will continue be sexist in game, atleast to some extent.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I personally like making very pretty female pc's. I look at it as being as much an exercise in wish fulfillment as the skinny pale guy who never does much fighting playing the rugged, muscular guy. But I -don't- think it's fair to assume that just because another pc -looks- baddass, or -looks- to be a dainty f-me that they are what they look like. I know someone doesn't have to have 400 pounds of muscle to be deadly, or can, quite possibly, have all the muscle in the world simply because they like strength-training and weight-lifting. I mean, the big muscular guy and the dainty chick, both with no training, well, the muscular probably -is- more likely to kick your ass in a fight, but thats simply due to the muscle mass. IMO. I know that if I can choose what I look like, it'll probably be better than average, I don't think that's any reason to treat those pc's as less than equal IC. I mean, I would be more quick to think, 'she doesn't have any obvious combat skills, she doesn't walk around in loads of armor, and she's not covered in scars, chances are she's either got really good connections, or she is likely close to someone who does, how else would she get by like that?'. That's just me personally. And, to me that goes -either- way. Same for guys as girls, just using the feminine because a) I am a female, and, b) The post about f-me females. And, furthermore, I've noticed that there -are- rather a lot of nice-looking female pcs, and would like to see more of that in male pcs.

[Yam]

I often make female f-mes too.

Mudsexers beware.


I also make f-me males though. In fact, I made the most f-me male in the entire history of the game. He died of starvation with under 5 hours played because my connection dropped.

[Lizzie]

I run into SO many fragile F'me female PC's it makes it HARD to treat them like they are my equal in game, when the vast majority are playing your typical fragile RL female.

Quoted for truth.

[FuSoYa]

I personally like making very pretty female pc's. I look at it as being as much an exercise in wish fulfillment as the skinny pale guy who never does much fighting playing the rugged, muscular guy. But I -don't- think it's fair to assume that just because another pc -looks- baddass, or -looks- to be a dainty f-me that they are what they look like. I know someone doesn't have to have 400 pounds of muscle to be deadly, or can, quite possibly, have all the muscle in the world simply because they like strength-training and weight-lifting. I mean, the big muscular guy and the dainty chick, both with no training, well, the muscular probably -is- more likely to kick your ass in a fight, but thats simply due to the muscle mass. IMO. I know that if I can choose what I look like, it'll probably be better than average, I don't think that's any reason to treat those pc's as less than equal IC. I mean, I would be more quick to think, 'she doesn't have any obvious combat skills, she doesn't walk around in loads of armor, and she's not covered in scars, chances are she's either got really good connections, or she is likely close to someone who does, how else would she get by like that?'. That's just me personally. And, to me that goes -either- way. Same for guys as girls, just using the feminine because a) I am a female, and, b) The post about f-me females. And, furthermore, I've noticed that there -are- rather a lot of nice-looking female pcs, and would like to see more of that in male pcs.

Why?  I think people should be allowed to make whichever type of character they want and that's looks included.  That doesn't mean I won't balk at some descriptions that describe their globe like breasts or tiny waist or a man's rugged good looks... but it's their choice.  Personally, I have alot of fun writing up rather unattractive PCs and I feel it's my prerogative to do so.  But I guess that means I just have dashing good looks IRL.

Brandon