Hot Button Issue: Sexism

[Wicked]

I think a great solution to all this ambiguity would be some crossdressing NPCs.

Seen it. He was in Tuluk and wore a skirt and .. perhaps heels, I don't recall. And had red red lips, and flirted with women.

[Angela Christine]

What about semantic sexism?  Sexism that is designed to be descriptive, not discriminatory. 

Examples:

You throw like a girl.
Stop your sniveling and man up!
Ok, ladies, lets see what you can do.  (When spoken to an all-male group).
He needs to grow a pair.
Be a man.
Cried like a little girl.
He's a dickless wonder.

These sorts of things are not insulting or discriminating against a specific woman, they do imply that women are inferior, weak, and emotionally unstable.  Meanwhile men are strong, dependable, and emotionless.     It seems like Zalanthans wouldn't have the preconceptions necessary to use, or even understand, these kinds of statements.  "You throw like a girl" or "you fight like a girl" is meaningless.  Which girl?  Well, it is meaningless if you assume that girl=woman, if you assume that girl=child, then it makes sense, but it would probably be better to avoid confusion and just use "child". 


Most of the time insulting men by referring to them as women, you can get the same point across by referring to them as children.  It would be acceptable to insult both men and women who are particularly weak, weepy, or emotionally unstable by calling them immature or comparing them to children.


Racism might work too.  Referring to a weak human as elfish (elfin?) could work.  "You throw like an elf" doesn't seem to flow very well though.  Still, comparing a human to an elf or half-elf is usually going to be insulting.  Likewise, calling an elf humanish, or comparing an elf to a human or half-elf would be insulting.  Having sex with an extremely muscular woman isn't like having sex with a man, it's like humping a dwarf.    Likewise, the Arnold Schwarzeneggers of Zalanthas would probably be sniggeringly compared to muls, because body builder levels of bulging muscle would probably be quite rare in Zalanthas -- Zalanthans may train for strength, but not to look like ripped, veiny, mutants, because that is just a waste of water and calories.


Eh?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Excellent suggestions, AC.

[Gimfalisette]

Definitely, AC.

[Malken]

Women, you need to have a private chat and talk that out amongst yourselves.

Yesterday I had a woman PC (who I know for a fact she's a woman IRL) tell me that I wasn't being nice to her because she was a woman and I was making her carry my heavy stuff.

That happens all the time.

You are your own worst enemy, women.

[Clearsighted]

Women, you need to have a private chat and talk that out amongst yourselves.

Yesterday I had a woman PC (who I know for a fact she's a woman IRL) tell me that I wasn't being nice to her because she was a woman and I was making her carry my heavy stuff.

That happens all the time.

You are your own worst enemy, women.

QFT.

These discussions on the board are nice but it's hard to break out of old habits (like calling a bunch of men 'ladies' or that they hit like a girl) when easily ninety percent of the female playerbase acts exactly like you would expect. However, the 10% that don't, are virtually always (I can't think of a single exception) treated the same as a guy would be. I can think of several bad ass females who were accorded the same respect and deference (if not more so) than a male leader. But they walked the walk too.

I try to avoid gender modifiers, but sometimes it slips out in the heat of the moment. ("Mount up, ladies"). Wherever I can, I try to substitute hateful racism against elves for it.

Nor do I see how it would strike a blow against sexual equality for people to simply admit that on Zalanthas, men are more inclined to be warriors and women are more inclined to not be. Owing to the fact that they bear children and are thus more often having to raise the next generation than men. This is because in a woman's prime, she is at her most 'capable' for childbearing, whereas at a man's prime, he is most capable for fighting. Furthermore, families seem fairly large on Zalanthas. I can think of one widow with 7 children trailing on a rope behind her. This can all be accepted while still acknowledging that women can make perfectly able warriors and that there is nothing odd about it. That would be reasonable. Yet people seem bent on extremes. I don't see anything wrong for instance, with a man who had four daughters but no sons, forbidding one of the daughters to not marry but to take up a more physical trade instead, as a son might have. That would still be in line with accepting the daughter could do just as well in a pinch, provided she weren't pinned down with, oh I don't know, procreation.

I sympathize with women for what must be the crippling and virulent sexism that they are forced to endure and somehow overcome every day of their real lives, but I don't think the above even remotely compromises the docs as they're written.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm forced to back Sight on this. Sexism is treating a woman or male unfairly based solely on their gender. Sexism is not telling a dude he pisses like a pregnant girl, nor assuming that that girl who's having her third kid in two years and wearing silks and slippers everywhere just might need help down the stairs.

That said, because Staff says that it is, it is, and therefore I like to introduce racial comparisons to supplant sexual comparisons as well. It works well.

[Delstro]

You throw like a halfling!
Stop your sniveling, you ain't a breed, are you?
Ok, whores, lets see what your tricks are.
Looks like he got fecked by a skinny.
Don't be a slave.
Cried like a little halfbreed bitch.
He's a crippled mul.

Substituting racism in for sexism is pretty damn fun.

[Barzalene]

Women, you need to have a private chat and talk that out amongst yourselves.

Yesterday I had a woman PC (who I know for a fact she's a woman IRL) tell me that I wasn't being nice to her because she was a woman and I was making her carry my heavy stuff.

That happens all the time.

You are your own worst enemy, women.

Some women believe the only real power they have is between their legs. And as long as they believe that it will be true. Don't be angry. Just pity them a little, when they can't see you do it.
To clarify girls are socialized to believe that exploit that power by deferring to men, and in so doing manipulate them into doing things for you. And they do it, to feel big and strong. And so they can get laid.
Which is a nice arrangement as long as everyone is happy.
What's not a nice arrangement is when a woman who is more than happy to carry her load is punished and not accorded the ability to fully realize her potential because she is compared to a woman who will not.
I'm not sure that's cogent, but I know what I mean.

[Desertman]

Women, you need to have a private chat and talk that out amongst yourselves.

Yesterday I had a woman PC (who I know for a fact she's a woman IRL) tell me that I wasn't being nice to her because she was a woman and I was making her carry my heavy stuff.

That happens all the time.

You are your own worst enemy, women.

Some women believe the only real power they have is between their legs. And as long as they believe that it will be true. Don't be angry. Just pity them a little, when they can't see you do it.
To clarify girls are socialized to believe that exploit that power by deferring to men, and in so doing manipulate them into doing things for you. And they do it, to feel big and strong. And so they can get laid.
Which is a nice arrangement as long as everyone is happy.
What's not a nice arrangement is when a woman who is more than happy to carry her load is punished and not accorded the ability to fully realize her potential because she is compared to a woman who will not.
I'm not sure that's cogent, but I know what I mean.

I know what you mean.

Basically.

The little barbie girly girls who have been taught to be Princess Pink and keep to their "Gender Roles" make the hard working capable women of America look bad.

[Gimfalisette]

easily ninety percent of the female playerbase acts exactly like you would expect. However, the 10% that don't, are virtually always (I can't think of a single exception) treated the same as a guy would be. I can think of several bad ass females who were accorded the same respect and deference (if not more so) than a male leader. But they walked the walk too.

I have played some badass female fighter types, one of whom was a prominent, respected leader. I have fond memories of people throwing up, weeping, and pissing on themselves because of her.

But I don't always want to play that type of character. Sometimes I want to play a guild_merchant or a guild_burglar or some other type who isn't physically strong and into combat. Or, sometimes I want to play a character who achieves via manipulation and politics more than via physical presence and crisis leadership.

But then I feel guilty when I do, like I'm not "representing" enough.

That sucks.

Another aspect is that I know for a fact that my characters, regardless of guild or combat prowess or physical stats, are all well-played, faceted, interesting, strong in their own ways, etc. But I think some of them get written off as "girls" because they are not all that badass female warrior. That feels unfair to me.

[Clearsighted]

easily ninety percent of the female playerbase acts exactly like you would expect. However, the 10% that don't, are virtually always (I can't think of a single exception) treated the same as a guy would be. I can think of several bad ass females who were accorded the same respect and deference (if not more so) than a male leader. But they walked the walk too.

I have played some badass female fighter types, one of whom was a prominent, respected leader. I have fond memories of people throwing up, weeping, and pissing on themselves because of her.

But I don't always want to play that type of character. Sometimes I want to play a guild_merchant or a guild_burglar or some other type who isn't physically strong and into combat. Or, sometimes I want to play a character who achieves via manipulation and politics more than via physical presence and crisis leadership.

But then I feel guilty when I do, like I'm not "representing" enough.

That sucks.

Another aspect is that I know for a fact that my characters, regardless of guild or combat prowess or physical stats, are all well-played, faceted, interesting, strong in their own ways, etc. But I think some of them get written off as "girls" because they are not all that badass female warrior. That feels unfair to me.

Well. If it's any consolation, the guys who do the same things (play subtle or merchantly roles, or lounge around as someone's dainty aide and are not also nobles) tend to get treated like girls too. There are just less people interested in screwing them.

[Malken]

Well. If it's any consolation, the guys who do the same things (play subtle or merchantly roles, or lounge around as someone's dainty aide and are not also nobles) tend to get treated like girls too. There are just less people interested in screwing them.

*coughs*

[Yam]

I have played some badass female fighter types, one of whom was a prominent, respected leader. I have fond memories of people throwing up, weeping, and pissing on themselves because of her.

I was definitely one of those people on two occasions.

's fun.

[staggerlee]

A lot of the posts in this thread seem to imply that the game is dominated by women that play women and men that play men.  Previous threads and conversations have demonstrated that that's categorically not true.   Just something to keep in mind.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Doesn't matter. Whoever is playing the PC is still playing them a certian way. It may be increased by the fact that people are playing opposite sexes and deciding that a girl should act this way and a male should act this way.

[staggerlee]

Doesn't matter. Whoever is playing the PC is still playing them a certian way. It may be increased by the fact that people are playing opposite sexes and deciding that a girl should act this way and a male should act this way.

Oh I know, a lot of time men play the girliest girls around.  I was just pointing that out since a few posters had used terms like "the female playerbase" while referring to the actions of characters in the game.   

I just wanted to make sure all us men aren't running around playing hyper-sexual barbie dolls and then making disparaging comments about how girlie the game's women are.

On a side note (and I know I'm just asking for trouble for saying this) are we seriously blaming women for the way we treat them?  "I wouldn't treat women like they're weak and only good for domestic chores and sex if it wasn't true!"    I mean... really?  Something about that kind of logic strikes me as really dubious.

[Clearsighted]

A lot of the posts in this thread seem to imply that the game is dominated by women that play women and men that play men.  Previous threads and conversations have demonstrated that that's categorically not true.   Just something to keep in mind.

You're right. There's alot of men playing extremely girly women. Honestly, I think they want to be abused, just a little. 

I think Malken has a whole stable of em.

[Yam]

My girls kidnap children, stab people's eyes out, and... yeah. That's about it.

One of them stole an elf's sword once.

That was fun.

[Zoan]

My next chick is going to be a Suzie Homemaker, just to spite everyone.

[Gimfalisette]

My next chick is going to be a Suzie Homemaker, just to spite everyone.

You will rapidly get bored and store, and then the joke's on -you-.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I tend to treat people as the gender they are playing, rather than the sex.  If they're playing masculine, they're going to be treated masculinely.  If they're playing feminine, they're going to be treated femininely.  You won't see me treating that pansy merchant boy as one of the guys if I'm playing my big burly Byn warrior, but you will see me treating that kickass Byn chick that way.

It kind of annoys me when many of the chicks around my character are tiny, fluffy, beribboned puppy dogs just looking for a home (which happens from time to time) because I really love the awesome strong female characters one tends to find on Arm, but I can concede that their players are allowed to play them whichever way they want.  And I am just as allowed to take advantage of them, not because I'm playing a male character, but because they're just begging to be taken advantage of. 

It isn't nearly as bad on Arm as it is on any other high or low fantasy MUD I've played, ever, and that is heartwarming.  We could be better, but we are far from being the worst.

Also, the argument that 'women in their prime should be devoting their energies to having children' is pretty specious.  In the first place, childbearing isn't as time consuming as seems to be implied by this argument.  A pregnant woman can fully function for quite a while into her pregnancy.  The actual child bearing part does not actually take that long.  People seem to be confusing child bearing with child rearing, which is a long, rigorous, time consuming process that takes more than a decade.  Child rearing can be performed by a man or a woman.  A man could just as easily have those seven children strung out on a rope behind him as a woman could.