Hot Button Issue: Sexism

[Gimfalisette]

I'm digging Tis' explanation. That actually works really well for me. Phew. Because those objects have always bothered me, previously.

[staggerlee]

I always thought that 'feminine' and 'masculine' with regards to clothing were meant to communicate their shape and look to the players, not any manner of cultural biases to the characters.

That's exactly what I came here to post.  We communicate in our prose using our own language with all its associations and signifiers that it has in our own world.    Refusing to use any word that might be loaded with meaning in the real world or have origins that refer to specific historic or cultural phenomena would make the game impossible.

You can't even call someone's hair "long" without referencing cultural norms. What's "long" mean outside context?

In short... I agree with Tis.

[Ghost]

I don't understand half of you people

[My 2 sids]

Okay,   I can understand both sides of the issue.

One --  sexism would prohibit role-play because it would force PCs into certain roles and stereotypes.    Two -- not having any gender-roles also prohibits role-play because it's second nature for us in RL to have some kind of analogy for those portraying certain characteristics. 

Would it help/ hinder/ have no affect if we assigned RL gender-roles to a new category of PC?   What I mean is maybe in Arm those PCs who are 3rd born carry all the stereotypes we associate with a girl's girl?   Maybe PCs who are 7th born are known to be "masculine/ aggressive/ dominate"? 

Thus, for the sake of Role-play we'd have some IC references for stereotypes.  Get what I'm saying?

[flurry]

I always thought that 'feminine' and 'masculine' with regards to clothing were meant to communicate their shape and look to the players, not any manner of cultural biases to the characters.

I agree.

Also I can think of at least one other article of clothing that's described as 'feminine', and in that context it seems to mean it's tailored to better fit a woman's body.

[Zoan]

So basically, this thread is saying: If Lord Hardnose Tor comes along to oversee training one day wearing a silky white kalisiri, my character's supposed to see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary with it?

[staggerlee]

So basically, this thread is saying: If Lord Hardnose Tor comes along to oversee training one day wearing a silky white kalisiri, my character's supposed to see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary with it?

I generally don't play characters that would tell a Lord Tor how to dress.

It would depend whether that were an unusual outfit for the Lord.  White isn't really a good Nakki color, so you could wonder about that and question whether it was properly fashionable and patriotic, or why he wasn't in Tor's colors.   Kalisiri is a good Nakki outfit though.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html#Allanak

It comes down to fashion and appropriateness of dress. I really wouldn't want to be the poor fool that tried to tell a Tor in his own Academy that he was out of fashion though.

[flurry]

Actually, according to the docs, white is always en vogue in Allanak.

However, the one staple of the Allanaki wardrobe is the color white. Trims may change, and colors may go in and out of style, but white is always in fashion.

(Sorry for the derail.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Actually, white is always in fashion. It is green, and particularly pale green, that is a bad color in Allanak.

Edit: Err ... sorry, flurry. To add something further to the discussion, I couldn't really see my characters ever wearing anything intended for a woman. It's not only wierd to me OOCly, but it's sorta impractical ICly, frankly. No matter what you want to say about feminine and masculine, there are literal differences in what they are supposed to fit. Women's breastplates have spots for titties. Males' don't. Males' loin-coverings are more likely to have a little room in the groin for the genitals. In real life, there are other things that are literally impractical for switching from sex to sex, but this is Zalanthas. So I suppose a guy could go on and wear a dress if they like, or a corset or thong or whatever, but the reality of it is that they are not designed for the male body, and you'll probably have that bodice taken in a bit. Likewise, if you have a girl with tits of any size, it's probably worth remembering if you buy a masculine torso piece.

[staggerlee]

Not enough coffee today, you're right about the color, my mistake.

And yeah, 7DV I was assuming that if the Lord wore this feminine clothing regularly he'd had it tailored so that it'd fit right.  Tighten up the cleavage, strap everything down so that nothing slips out of that nice lacy thing.

In all seriousness I think your biggest reason for criticizing someone's wardrobe is if it's unfashionable, ill fit (for 7DV), out of the ordinary for them, inappropriate for the job they're doing, or inappropriate for their station. That covers a lot of ground and would probably alleviate your concerns Zoan.

[Barzalene]

My character is treated differently because she's a girl. Should I roleplay as though other people aren't roleplaying that my character is treated differently because she's a girl?

When playing youngish male characters, I haven't had a problem with youngish female characters ogling them, trying to buy them drinks at random, or striking up awkward and pointless conversations.

But I certainly don't let that stop me from doing it in reverse.

Oddly on the occasion I played a youngish male pc I did have that problem. Far more than I usually do.

[Is Friday]

I've played both genders and had both situations happen. I don't think it's bad at all, I think it's just what happens. If anything, I'd consider it very gender neutral for both sexes to be equally forthcoming!

Um, it is sort of annoying sometimes though, when it's a completely boring PC. (Sorry.)

[manonfire]

I don't know about anyone else, but I really don't give two shits about Arma fashion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Then don't post about it.

Some of us do.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...your biggest reason for criticizing someone's wardrobe is if it's unfashionable, ill fit (for 7DV), out of the ordinary for them, inappropriate for the job they're doing, or inappropriate for their station...

There is nothing more to say after that. Excellent summary.

[Tisiphone]

So basically, this thread is saying: If Lord Hardnose Tor comes along to oversee training one day wearing a silky white kalisiri, my character's supposed to see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary with it?

Leaving aside the social status issues, no, that's not the point. Your character would likely find it jarring, but not because he's being womanish; rather, because the clothes don't fit. He's dressing like a clown, not a transvestite.

[flurry]

However, the clothing doc does make it clear that there are differences in the way men and women dress. Numerous clothing items do, too.

[Fathi]

I think a great solution to all this ambiguity would be some crossdressing NPCs.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I know of at least one.

[Bebop]

This debate has come up time and time again.

The rules are clear, no sexism.  Try to leave your gender roles at the door despite anatomy.

If you can't deal and I see it in game I am going to log it and send it to the IMMs pronto with my complaints.

If it is bothering you that BADLY then try and special app it along with your elf riding a kank.

I am discriminated against enough IRL, I don't want to have to deal with it in game.

[Lizzie]

Agreed with Bebop, and I'll go further - if you don't -want- to be treated like a delicate, feminine, needy, cloying, feminine she-tok, then don't roleplay one. If you roleplay that way, then don't get your silken furry panties in a bunch when people treat your character like one.

The same goes for people who want to play "manly men" but don't like it when people "depend" on them for "manly things." If you don't want your character to be treated like a piece of stud meat, then don't roleplay a piece of stud meat.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Agreed with Bebop, and I'll go further - if you don't -want- to be treated like a delicate, feminine, needy, cloying, feminine she-tok, then don't roleplay one. If you roleplay that way, then don't get your silken furry panties in a bunch when people treat your character like one.

The same goes for people who want to play "manly men" but don't like it when people "depend" on them for "manly things." If you don't want your character to be treated like a piece of stud meat, then don't roleplay a piece of stud meat.

This.

In my book, it goes both ways.  If you don't want to be "discriminated" against, then don't play into the stereotype.  You can't expect to have no "sexism" against you unless your character deserves to be treated the same as everyone else.  This, of course, goes for male characters, too.  If there's a male character about who acts like a fainting, needy, "feminine" type, then he should be treated exactly like a female character who acts the same way.

[Salt Merchant]

I'd say that each gender has clothing that sets its own body form off to best advantage. So a haltar top, for example, on a male character would look ridiculous. It would look like he's trying to look like a woman, which he isn't. Same with form-fitting dresses. If they fit a male body properly, they'd look male and have a different name. If they sag and are tight in the wrong places, they look foolish on a man and make him look foolish.

[BlazinDayz]

The same goes for people who want to play "manly men" but don't like it when people "depend" on them for "manly things." If you don't want your character to be treated like a piece of stud meat, then don't roleplay a piece of stud meat.

Duly noted.

[Tisiphone]

I'd say that each gender has clothing that sets its own body form off to best advantage. So a haltar top, for example, on a male character would look ridiculous. It would look like he's trying to look like a woman, which he isn't. Same with form-fitting dresses. If they fit a male body properly, they'd look male and have a different name. If they sag and are tight in the wrong places, they look foolish on a man and make him look foolish.

But again; foolish, not perverse. He's made the faux pas of dressing poorly, not of transgressing social sexual norms, since the latter don't exist in the Known World.