With great power comes great assininity (in the rinth)

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I've been thinking some things about the rinth, and how it's run by the people in power.

First off, I realise the rinth isn't the place for whiners, and that's not what I'm trying to do. I realise the need to keep it lawless and dangerous. What good would it be otherwise?

My problem comes from the people in power. Don't get me wrong, some of them are great. They hire, start plots, and keep intrigue going. That's awesome. That's what the rinth needs. My issue is when people who lead clans, are unquestionably powerful, or have people of unquestionable power in their employ, and basically have little to fear from the common thug - but kill him anyway!

Two things come to mind:

One is spice dealing. What would a powerhouse organization of spice sales have to fear from my newbie PC selling a grain or two? I realise that it make sense to take out the competition, but if you run a spice house, or a huge organization, what is my client gonna do to dent you, really? A few PCs might switch over to buying from me, but you've still got the other 99% of the virtual rinth buying from you! If I start walking around with a body guard and amassing 1,000s of sid, then by all means take action, but why can't I play a lowly rinthi dealer?

Second is tribute. Why would a large organization care so much about one poor ass beggar who doesn't give you two coins out of the eight he made selling pants he found? I understand how tribute works. If I'm discovered to be a good thief, or a good fence, or mugger, or well-paid informant, then take some coins. But if I'm dressed in the rattiest of rags and selling corpses to eat, why do you care that you don't have a share of what little sid I have? Tribute is designed to make money from people who HAVE money. I'm not saying you can't beat up my little forager, or threaten him from time to time, but KILLING him because he doesn't have enough coin to pay you AND feed himself....

I know that everything I'm protesting does make sense, but my point of vew is this: what fun is the rinth if you can't try and hash out a concept without paying out the ass to all the existing powerhouses, or joining them? There's always another small-time thug trying to take what I have, why do I have to worry about someone who should have something better to do with his time killing me over the smallest of things? Their power comes from controlling a majority. My PC is not a majority. The rinth is far more fun without these so called "leaders" around. When you give one PC too much power in such an unchecked environment, they almost always behave the same way with it - join me, pay me, or die. It doesn't make any sense IG, and it sure as hell doesn't make any sense OOC.

This isn't a post to point fingures, or complain about the current leaders. It's just to say - the rinth is fun because it's lawless and free. Let me have some damned freedom! Just a little. Please?

Does anyone see where I'm coming from on this, or should I just hike my skirt up?

[Dusky]

As a lover of Kurac and a spicy player, I have to agree with you completely.  There should be plenty of room for the little guy.  You aren't selling knots, thals or bricks, you should be fine.

And there should be plenty of competition at your level so that the dirt is fighting amongst themselves for the local corner - but Kurac (and other big organizations) wouldn't bother you.  Heck, they might even decide to supply you.

[spicemustflow]

Spot on, and not only for the rinth leaders. I wish to see Kurac in flames.

But as you said, rinth is not for whiners and seeing how the playerbase is very quick on the draw even in places where there's law around, just hide and sneak, and wait your turn. The leaders in rinth are just like n00bles and new templars only on war spice. I wonder, do you get to be the leader of the guild or a gang by your hard work, or by applying for the position?

[roughneck]

The generally see two things driving the decision making by leaders and powerful players in the 'rinth.  One is fear and the other is boredom.

Often times they just kill any kind of competitor or pc that doesn't work for or with them just to prevent having a character around that could perhaps be a danger in the future.  I had a an assassin once who was living providing for an orphanage he grew up in, after refusing work for one of they big dogs the henchman who offered me the job just came in and killed me while I was resting with poison and a couple rounds of combat.  The only reason I can see for something like this is OOC being worried that I could live long enough to become a competitor - it wasn't for coins because they had plenty - wasn't for respect because I had been submitting so I think my assumption is correct.

It's sort of lame, but it's hard to expel the feeling of the 'rinth being a place of PC competition.  Which it usually ends up happening anyways but it's nice to let a little bit of a story develop along side it.  Leaders/skilled characters that aren't insecure in their place end up being the best ones to play with because they don't worry/interfere with other PC's shit until someone crosses them or there is a real interest or gain in going after them and they allow very cool stories develop that end up including many different players.

[Barzalene]

Some of this is going to depend on you and how you choose to sell spice and not pay tribute.
But, I disagree. The power of those groups is they rule with fear. And the reason people aren't selling bricks and thumbing their nose at tribute is because if you mess with them and they catch you, you don't get to mess with them again.
Now if you can avoid their notice, if you can, when caught, convince them you really didn't do it, and you didn't do it on purpose and you're very sorry, then they should give you an out on killing you, the same way a templar should. But only if you're contrite, pay up and amend your ways.

[Qzzrbl]

I wish people in 'Rinth would just -beat you up- instead of -killing- you.

And that people who got beat up would just give a counter-beating instead of killing.

There's just too much killing going on sometimes. >~<

[manonfire]

My problem with the 'rinth has always been this: If it lacks capable, intelligent leadership, it's little more than a mindless hack 'n slash area of the MUD.

[Qzzrbl]

More like sneak 'n stab.

You'll get backstabbed and poisoned if you openly display your combat prowess for being too strong and a potential threat.

[RogueGunslinger]

My problem with the 'rinth has always been this: If it lacks capable, intelligent leadership, it's little more than a mindless hack 'n slash area of the MUD.

Very, very true.

And guess what? Those leaders, because of their lack of planning, and intelligence, are -very- easy to overthrow. You just have to think things out a bit.

I had a character go in and stir up some shit rather easily and managed to gain a quick upper-hand over a few -way- more powerful PC's, which would have had him in a power position in no time, had something not of happened completely done by choice on my part.

And guess what. I wasn't a magicker, assassin, psionicist, nilazi, sorcerer, or mul either.

If leadership were more my thing, I'd gladly re-attempt to take shit over.


Now, some problems people tend to have about the 'rinth is that coded strength=power. Which in a lot of cases is true, but isn't so bad that it can't be worked around. I certainly agree that less unnecessary death would be a plus.


What it realy needs though? More diverse players and more veteran players.

Right now it just seems like the 'rinth is chock full of noobies and twinkers, with the occasional cool character.

[Malken]

My friend said that she tried the 'rinth and some NPC kept sapping her over and over again and she had to use a script to stand up and run away the second she'd wake up in the end, and that the same NPC kept going at her even if
she was totally naked except for her n00b boots.. Is that a normal 'rinth story?

[Delstro]

Not unless she had some really awesome noob boots.

[fourTwenty]

Sounds exactly like it should be.
There is no small time dealer, this is my hood. Your either dealing for me or your not dealing. One way or the other.
. <--- That's the period.

[Qzzrbl]

Not unless she had some really awesome noob boots.

She could've just wandered into the wrong area too.

Remember kids, the east side belongs to the elves.

[RogueGunslinger]

My friend said that she tried the 'rinth and some NPC kept sapping her over and over again and she had to use a script to stand up and run away the second she'd wake up in the end, and that the same NPC kept going at her even if
she was totally naked except for her n00b boots.. Is that a normal 'rinth story?

Don't know if it's normal, but it's certainly happened to me. It's infuriating. Seemingly for no reason at all too. This was after I had a couple 'rinth characters already, and knew how to avoid it.

So yeah... I think there are some serious code issues with the 'rinth, but nothing that can't be easily worked around.

[touringCompl3t3]

The original poster is spot-on.

The problem stems from the fact that big-shot players often crush the competition.  Quickly, and too efficiently.

Then they get bored and start going after the small fish, even though it's out of character for them to do so.  Pretty soon they run everyone out of town.  It becomes unrealistic, and unplayable. 

[Salt Merchant]

Sounds exactly like it should be.
There is no small time dealer, this is my hood. Your either dealing for me or your not dealing. One way or the other.
. <--- That's the period.

So does your character kill NPCs that won't deal too? Or is it that magical, special aura that surrounds PCs coming into play again?

[Malken]

The original poster is spot-on.

The problem stems from the fact that big-shot players often crush the competition.  Quickly, and too efficiently.

Then they get bored and start going after the small fish, even though it's out of character for them to do so.  Pretty soon they run everyone out of town.  It becomes unrealistic, and unplayable. 

That's a universal problem, though, just not the 'rinth.

Happens all the time, there's nothing that pisses me off more than someone that comes and PK a whole bunch of characters in a location that needed good players and was just starting to get interesting.

[Synthesis]

Lol.

A few weeks ago, I post something that gets a bunch of people excited about playing in the 'rinth.

A bunch of people roll up 'rinth characters.

Now everyone is complaining.

It all reminds me of a line from a skit on a Fugees album..."cats are always killin' other cats, when it's the -dogs- they should be worryin' about."

I just wish I was there to witness the mayhem.

[Kyviantre]

I think the 'join us', part of join/pay/die was made so people would have clannies to play with.  Least, that was always my excuse for that one 

[staggerlee]

It's probably not a particularly good idea to complain about existing player leadership on a public forum.
I'd send concerns about the roleplaying of people and organizations to the mud account instead.   

Also keep in mind that you don't know why these people have made the decisions they have, whether it's a personal choice, an organizational thing, a cultural thing, or whether maybe they just don't like your attitude.  The last option is very possible, judging from the way you've described the situation and people involved.
 
It's a harsh world, there are ways to survive and flourish in it, but spitting in the eye of the powers that be and striding out alone won't work in any part of the game world.

[Fathi]

I see where you're coming from, but I can't help but disagree, at least in regards to the area I have some experience with.

The reason Kurac has their virtual monopoly on spice in the Known World is because of tactics such as you described.

Sure, your small-time dealer isn't going to actually put a dent in Kurac's profits or contacts, but what about the hundreds of virtual small-time dealers throughout the world? Kurac has the monopoly on spice dealing because they've ruthlessly beat down the competition time and again, just like Kadius and Salarr have (although to a slightly lesser extent, as armour and fancy clothes are a little less specific a market than spice). If they give one or two small-time dealers a break, it opens a dangerous door.

When I played a recent stint in a Great Merchant House, we had a number of plotlines over the IC years that revolved around identifying competition and either employing it or squelching it, sometimes messily.

Because that's how monopolies work.

That being said, there are plenty of ways to do business in spice and fly under Kurac's radar if that's what your PC's goal is. It takes a little brainpower, but it's possible.

And you could always try talking to someone.

Traditionally, leader PCs are known to be a lot more lenient than you'd expect if you come to them openly with a deal on the table as opposed to just trying to deal behind their backs, and in my experience, this is no different in the 'Rinth than it is anywhere else.

[fourTwenty]

Sounds exactly like it should be.
There is no small time dealer, this is my hood. Your either dealing for me or your not dealing. One way or the other.
. <--- That's the period.

So does your character kill NPCs that won't deal too? Or is it that magical, special aura that surrounds PCs coming into play again?

My character would kill -anyone- he saw dealing on his turf. <--See, period again.

[mansa]

All the questions are from the choices the playerbase has done.  None of these problems are documented nor destined to be followed by each and every leader in the 'rinth.

/side point

[touringCompl3t3]

My character would kill -anyone- he saw dealing on his turf. <--See, period again.

Yeah, but your character doesn't have unlimited powers of enforcement.

Take me, for example.  While I was outside working on my car this evening, I killed --every-- mosquito that I noticed trying to bite me.

I must have killed about seven of the little bastards.  I still got bit about twelve times by sneaky little mosquitos that I didn't even see.  I can't catch all of them.

And your PC can't catch all of the competition, not in the vice trade.  If you want to play a big, bad gangster you need to make sure that there are several PC little gangsters running around.  If you don't have little mosquitoes biting you now and then, it's not believable. 

There's a difference between enforcing your turf and spam-enforcing your turf.  You simply can't catch everyone.  Can't.  (Period.)

Al Capone may have smuggled 90% of the liquor into Chicago, but he didn't smuggle all of it.  Victor Bout may have smuggled a tun of guns into Sierra Leonne, but he didn't smuggle all of them.  Mike Tyson may have robbed a lot of liquor stores in the Bronx, but he didn't commit every single robbery.

That's just not how it works.  Bill Gaites doesn't care if you pirate two copies of Windows XP.  Carl Icahn isn't going to send goons over to your house if you buy up five shares of yahoo and try to game his take-over trade.  House Salarr isn't going to kick in your door if you carve your Mom a spear for her birthday.  The Guild isn't going to cut off two of your fingers if you sell spice to five of your friends.  Vlad Putin isn't going to bring a lawsuit against you if you drink Latvian Vodka instead of Russian Vodka.  The Church of Scientology isn't going to burn your house down if you start your own irresponsible cult.

That's not how monopolies work. 




Edit: practically speaking, at some point you have to way the cost of enforcement against the penalty for ignoring partial infringements on your monopoly.  It's a business decision. 
Go to http://www.nissan.com
It isn't even --owned-- by Nissan.

Edit 2: That's why the militia keeps dropping your characters, dude.  You PK all of the other crim PCs, and so the militia PCs have no one to chase and get bored.  Boredom is a far bigger danger to your "turf" than a rival spice dealer, dude.

[fourTwenty]

Simple. I'm a bigger better gangster than any of the aforementioned.

And your exactly right, not gonna kill what I don't see happening.
So don't get seen and you wont have to make the choice: pay/join/die

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Yes, I know how monopolies work. Yes, I can guarentee I'll get fucked with if I refuse tribute. 

And no, I'm not talking about current leadership, though I think most of you have been around the block enough to tell that something did occur that put a frown on my face and got me thinking. Actually, I did have small beefs with all the big time leadership, and was let off easy a couple of times. The current leadership isn't bad, IMO.  It's more of a collection of little things I've noticed reoccur over my years of playing that made me post this.

My point wasn't about why they do it, it's how they do it.

Yes, I can understand (mostly) why they do what they do. I'm just hoping that someone will remember this when they get to that position, and think a little more about what they're doing. If you can kill someone for being irritating, then it stands to reason that you could just as easily beat them up. If they keep it up, then it's their own fault they end up with a knife in their back.

I'm just upset because it comes to murder all too often, and way too soon way too frequently. I can't specifically target the people in power for this alone, but they do seem to be some of the bigger offenders.

I just want a little more wiggle room as to what you consider a threat. It's no fun for anyone if you try and put 100% of the playerbase under your shadow. You eliminate a lot of opportunity for fun RP and situations for EVERY PLAYER IN THE RINTH. There is no way to win the game of Armageddon. All you can do is have fun along the way. Why crush every small time crook before they have a chance to get good enough to give you some sport? Isn't it funner when they can actually fight back a little? Hell, you might even have to involve other PCs in your plot if they get a little bit of weight behind them!

[Sokotra]

Or at least beat them up a couple of times as a warning, and then maybe proceed to breaking limbs or removing fingers if it continues... and THEN, maybe kill if absolutely necessary.  It's just boring and ignorant if 1 refusal equals the tough guy running in and completely destroying you in a couple rounds of combat and poison to boot.  Give me a break.  Not only that, but role play missing your mark once in a while... don't always get the kill just because you know that OOC'ly and code-wise you can do it anytime you want.  Or if you are that much of a badass, hire some other little guy that is more equal to harass the little guy you are putting the pressure on.  Anything other than "kill little guy, little guy dead, the end".

[Fathi]

I'm just upset because it comes to murder all too often, and way too soon way too frequently.

While I'm not trying to defend egregious amounts of PKing as the glorious solution to every social problem in the 'Rinth or elsewhere, you also have to look at things from the murderer's side.

Often times, leader characters being driven to murdering people for "minor" offenses is a direct result of the victim's own actions and reactions to the situation.

Too many people, when caught doing minor things that really should only warrant a beatdown, simply refuse to take the beatdown.

I'm sure everybody who posts on this board has witnessed at least one, "SCREW YOU AND SCREW YOUR HIGHLORD, MAN, I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE YOUR SHIT!" speech from somebody getting executed by a templar. I've seen this happen with 'Rinthi PCs plenty of times, too.

Not to claim that you've done this personally, OP, but enough people do that it causes problems.

Personally, I have held my finger off the PK trigger when the person who wronged my character apologises and doesn't have an attitude about being caught. I honestly believe that a large majority of powerful characters in this game are played by people who would do likewise.

Conversely, I've PKed somebody for a completely minor breach of clan rules because that person's reaction to getting caught swiping from a locker was to freak out and rant, spit on my character, refuse to return the stolen items, denounce my character in front of several of her subordinates, and then threaten everybody present.

A little bit of groveling and apologising goes a long way, please, players of people who piss off powerful people, keep this in mind.

[evil_erdlu]

Gah again?

I don't see the problem.. My first real character - read 'who didn't die in a few hours' - lived in 'rinth. He didn't train skills at all. Maybe from time to time he would go try a backstab here, a throw there, that's all. He could barely kill 'unarmed' NPCs.

He lived. He became an important asset. He joined plots. Noone messed with him. I was a newbie. I was learning even the coded combat. I don't see the problem.. Problem is...

1. Why doesn't leader X target NPCs, VNPCs? If you look deeper, you'll see leader X is only a middle-ranking leader in that clan. He has several NPC, VNPC allies and higher-ups. They are squishing any NPC, VNPC resistance while he kills your character. I always thought this is the rule of the game. NPCs, VNPCs offer flavour but we're supposed to interact with other PCs in this MUD as PCs.

2. I am no harm to his business. Why did he kill me? "Smash the snake's head while it's young.", a Turkish saying tells us. Why should he be so gentle and give you room to become powerful, then be a real threat? Is there an unseen code of RP hidden somewhere in the docs that tells us: "This is a holywood movie implementation of a post-apocalyptic world. You players that play villains: You are supposed to let your opponents live and only brag to them and maybe torture just a tad bit till they become a real threat. You're also supposed to hide the only weapon that can kill you in your secret chambers and mark it carefully for the heroes to find."

Really folks. This is not a movie where the big bad guys let the little guys live till they get strong. In real life, little guys join, pay or hide. In 'rinth you join, pay or hide.

3. I didn't pay tribute and I die just for that? You disobey a templar and you die for that. You can't manage to negotiate for your life with that defiler and you die for that. You don't pay tribute to that angry man in dark, hooded cloak and you die for that. This.. IS... ARMAGEDDON!!!

When you can't pay the tribute, ask for an alternative, kindly. Spy for them. scavenge for them. Be a man-whore if it's all it takes. There will always be an alternative if you know how to negotiate.

4. I'm a PC. If they kill PCs left and right, plots won't move on... Damn right they will..

Just my two cents...

[Yam]

The only problem I have with some situations is when a leader type character targets PCs because, well, they're PCs.

Code Select Expand

The ratty 'rinther says, "Yo boss, I here there's some brown-haired, green-eyed guy selling spice on our turf!"

The boss says, "That filthy motherfucker, I'm going to murder him!"

An Alley [NS]
The brown-haired, green-eyed guy is standing here.

The boss arrives from the south.

The boss says, "What the fuck are you doing selling spice on our turf, motherfucker?!"

The brown-haired, green-eyed guy says, "What are you talking about? I'm just a poor 'rin- AGGGHHHH!"

The boss has stabbed the fuck out of the brown-haired, green-eyed guy.

I see this happen a lot. Templars do it. 'Rinthers do it. Desert elves do it. It's a pretty universal thing. A lot of people don't do it.

It's quite understandable, but it isn't very cool or realistic. Just because you as a player know something doesn't mean that your character should. I believe that this is what people are talking about when they refer to over-snuffing out competition.

[evil_erdlu]

Yes, it's unrealistic.

He should have brought two guys along. He should have snuck in instead of walking in. Why is the boss bothering to miss his mark?

.....

This one, I like...

Focus on the first two responses of Gort. Of course I'm not saying there's only one kind of answer to being a good villain and it only involves killing, but at least one kind of villain would snuff any resistance instantly, with extreme caution. *waves a hand* There is no over-snuffing...

And you ask, how the boss instantly knows the PCs from NPCs? Because his ratting PC companion didn't rat out NPCs. He did rat out a PC, so the boss did kill a PC. I want to repeat the boss had a lot of VNPC allies in the same group, they had heard tales of folks dealing drugs - VNPCs. They had virtual encounters with those virtual drug dealers and the virtual scavengers took away everything, including the corpses. PCs should deal with PCs, NPCs should deal with NPCs, VNPCs should deal with VNPCs primarily when it comes to interaction.

Let's make up a scenario. You are a denizen of a totalitarian regime - shall we say an african banana republic? - and you want to deal drugs. There's a drug dealer living in the hood. He has a monopoly, backed up by the big boss living in the capital. Do you _really_ think he would let you move on and deal drugs freely to high-school kids before making any kind of arrangement?

C'mon... 'rinth _should_ be harsh. Find the boss, then give him an offer, or be strong enough and demolish anything the boss can send your way. If you're neither strong nor cooperative, I don't see any problems in you being another corpse; 25 'sids for another newbie.

[spicemustflow]

I'm just upset because it comes to murder all too often, and way too soon way too frequently.

While I'm not trying to defend egregious amounts of PKing as the glorious solution to every social problem in the 'Rinth or elsewhere, you also have to look at things from the murderer's side.

Often times, leader characters being driven to murdering people for "minor" offenses is a direct result of the victim's own actions and reactions to the situation.

Too many people, when caught doing minor things that really should only warrant a beatdown, simply refuse to take the beatdown.

I'm sure everybody who posts on this board has witnessed at least one, "SCREW YOU AND SCREW YOUR HIGHLORD, MAN, I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE YOUR SHIT!" speech from somebody getting executed by a templar. I've seen this happen with 'Rinthi PCs plenty of times, too.

Not to claim that you've done this personally, OP, but enough people do that it causes problems.

Personally, I have held my finger off the PK trigger when the person who wronged my character apologises and doesn't have an attitude about being caught. I honestly believe that a large majority of powerful characters in this game are played by people who would do likewise.

Conversely, I've PKed somebody for a completely minor breach of clan rules because that person's reaction to getting caught swiping from a locker was to freak out and rant, spit on my character, refuse to return the stolen items, denounce my character in front of several of her subordinates, and then threaten everybody present.

A little bit of groveling and apologising goes a long way, please, players of people who piss off powerful people, keep this in mind.

That is your experience. I was killed a few times (in and out of rinth) for either having a big tongue or doing something stupid (like being caught pirating spice). Every time my char was obviously and completely not dangerous to the killer, both physically or in terms of having connections etc. And I begged and groveled. Two times I didn't even manage to finish the typing before seeing the mantis head. I mean, if they broke all of the fingers of my pickpocket it would be cool, but no, it's kill. With no emotes, no cool torture, nothing. Just a shitty death, the kind any npc guard can give you. And once I was killed simply for being mistaken for a magicker, no other explanation for killing an old woman... I'd mention another example of itchy fingers but it's too recent and involves a live character. Whose guts I'd like to see on the floor. You end fearing those people only OOCly.

Of course, there are notable exceptions, but we're not talking about them now.

[Yam]

Yes, it's unrealistic.

He should have brought two guys along. He should have snuck in instead of walking in. Why is the boss bothering to miss his mark?

.....

Probably because there are tons upon tons of virtual people with green eyes and brown hair in the Labyrinth.

Your response is exactly the reason why people tend to bitch about some leaders over-policing other people. It's simply poor behavior to automatically know that the first green-eyed, brown-haired person you see IS the green-eyed, brown-haired person who is dealing spice on your turf just because he's a player character. If there is other evidence (like, for instance, your underling specifically points him out or you see him dealing), then that's fine. But going by some flimsy, common description alone is shitty.

Do you understand what I was talking about now?

[evil_erdlu]

Oh.. forgive me very much. I get it.. Of course, that's understandable. The ratting PC of course should have given a much more detailed description, then it would be acceptable.

[Yam]

Oh.. forgive me very much. I get it.. Of course, that's understandable. The ratting PC of course should have given a much more detailed description, then it would be acceptable.

No worries. I can see what you thought that I had implied in my first post. Totally understandable.

I agree that a PC in power should use every means necessary to stay in power. However, the player behind that PC can often assume some information based on their knowledge of the gameworld.

I believe this is where some leaders "out-snuff" the competition.

[Angela Christine]

One of the reasons people may be more likely to kill than deliver a simple beating, is that it is easier to kill someone than to beat them.  Beating people up is hard. 

A good beating typically involves punching and kicking, but unarmed combat is . . . odd.  I once had a newbie (secret) magicker recruited into a combat position.  Naturally she dreaded sparring, because she was really, really bad at regular combat.   Oddly enough, she could hold her own in unarmed combat drills.  She wasn't beating down the Warriors, but she wasn't losing nearly as badly as when weapons were involved.  The results of a punching fight seem a little unpredictable to me.  Another problem is that the person you are beating may decide to draw a weapon, ruining your perfectly good beating.

You could use weapons, but then it is harder to convince the other PC that this is just a beating and not a killing.  If the other player thinks that his PC's life is in danger, he may freak out.  Spam flee, try to kill you before you kill him, try to go out in a "blaze of glory" by insulting you and spitting on your shoes, or other unfortunate behavior.  What can you do?  You can't go OOC to tell the other player that your PC intends to rough him up but not kill him, play along plz.

Now in a MUSH or other consensual/cooperative role playing environment you would just emote out the beating, rather than relying on code.  You don't get the temporary HP loss of coded combat that way, but that is ok.  The problem with this is that since we don't do much of that sort of thing here, most of us aren't very good at it.  We just don't get much practice.  Sometimes you'll see people do a dance with several emotes before they can do something simple like shake hands or hand over a bag, because to simply "emote shakes hands with %man hand" could be power emoting, because what if that guy didn't want to shake your hand?     It is very hard to deliver an emote beat-down without being in danger of power emoting.  And the other guy can still be a jerk and pull out coded actions like fleeing or attacking.

Your best bet might be to have your buddy subdue the guy, then use emotes for the beating.  If you use subdue you have to settle for an emoted beating, because it is really easy to accidentally kill someone who is subdued.  The advantage is that emote-beating a subdued guy probably counts as torture, so you have to go OOC for torture consent, which gives you a legitimate way to OOC your intentions to the other player, and hope he chooses to play along.   

[Yam]

Whenever I do an involved beating, I usually OOC for consent. And then I do the beating in emotes.

That is, if their immobilized in some way and my character has the numbers to back him up should they fight back. If it's one on one and the beatee is still conscious, the code should decide what goes on.

[Dusky]

It's not always this way, of course. I think you guys are hearing only the bad cases. 

I know of a particular PC that has mugged several and messed up several - no one died.  The victims were willing to RP things out, didn't go bat-shit, and so were the criminals.

So while there are great reasons to kill people in the rinth even if it's just "I stabbed a man in the Mantis, just to watch him die," (apologies to Johnny Cash) it doesn't always go down like that.

[Sokotra]

Oh.. forgive me very much. I get it.. Of course, that's understandable. The ratting PC of course should have given a much more detailed description, then it would be acceptable.

That's not necessarily the problem.   The point is that you can allow yourself, especially if you are a badass, not to "win" and take the OOC/code information of knowing that you can find and kill this person with no problem.  You might just as easily be able to allow your character to think that the person died, even though they are just laying there unconscious or maybe allow your PC to miss his mark once in a while or accidentally go after some VNPC that looks like your target.  Or, heck, you could even have your PC realize that it isn't worth the trouble, effort, risk, waste of water(sweat) going after some guy that will probably die on his own in a few months anyway or will probably offer you a small cut of his profits or any number of things that could happen rather than just snuffing out the PC with no chance of future RP or possibilities, whether they might pose some minor challenge or not.

The point is not whether or not it is realistic to kill someone that poses a threat in a harsh world.  The point is that you are roleplaying and you can just as easily roleplay other things happening rather than just trying to "win" everything and make the little guy die with no chance of even struggling against the odds.  There's many possibilities while still remaining realistic and staying IC.

[evil_erdlu]

Oh.. forgive me very much. I get it.. Of course, that's understandable. The ratting PC of course should have given a much more detailed description, then it would be acceptable.

That's not necessarily the problem.   The point is that you can allow yourself, especially if you are a badass, not to "win" and take the OOC/code information of knowing that you can find and kill this person with no problem.  You might just as easily be able to allow your character to think that the person died, even though they are just laying there unconscious or maybe allow your PC to miss his mark once in a while or accidentally go after some VNPC that looks like your target.  Or, heck, you could even have your PC realize that it isn't worth the trouble, effort, risk, waste of water(sweat) going after some guy that will probably die on his own in a few months anyway or will probably offer you a small cut of his profits or any number of things that could happen rather than just snuffing out the PC with no chance of future RP or possibilities, whether they might pose some minor challenge or not.

The point is not whether or not it is realistic to kill someone that poses a threat in a harsh world.  The point is that you are roleplaying and you can just as easily roleplay other things happening rather than just trying to "win" everything and make the little guy die with no chance of even struggling against the odds.  There's many possibilities while still remaining realistic and staying IC.

Yes, but they don't need to. They shouldn't feel forced to. Especially, there shouldn't be a GDB post about this. If they feel generous, great. If they don't, they have all the right to kill such a character who didn't take the environment around them into account and tried messing with much higher powers openly. I'd like to repeat again, if there's a gang going on somewhere about something, anything illegal anywhere, you can't simply go there and start your own business. You either remain hidden, submit to the powerful or be so powerful that the powers that be can't mess with you. If you can do neither of these, it's not the other player's responsibility to grant your character's survival.

Armageddon's motto is: "Murder. Corruption. Betrayal." not "Second chances.  Multi-line emotes.  Conflict resolution."

2. Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even
    free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if
    you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean
    only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at
    the end of their careers.

3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
    mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
    killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.  The sole
    exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
    both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.

4. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
    your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
    See point 2 above.

What I'm disturbed about isn't particularly the topic, but the topic's being in the GDB. We, fellow players, have no right to force our wishes into other players RP. We, fellow players have no right to declare others guilty for some behaviour (take it to the staff, they're volunteering to maintain the game). Witch hunts are what disturb me and I guess I'm done with this thread - repeating myself over and over.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's where you're wrong. I have every right to say you roleplay like a tard.

If your roleplay(or lack of it) is generally making the game less fun for a substantial amount of people, wouldn't it be simply selfish for you to continue playing the way you are? Obviously there is an issue here, and all you are offering for help is "Quit crying noobs, zalanthas is harsh!."

That kind of attitude can really frustrate newbies who have been having a hard time with the game, simply because players wont take the time to make the game world fun for them.

But no, you just go on backstabbing every character you suspect might cause you trouble in the future. Because trouble never leads to fun roleplay, and players -love- getting insta ganked by players who are obviously better.



I believe powerful characters, and characters in leadership positions have a responsibility to make the game fun for others as much as it is for themselves. They shouldn't sacrifice there own fun, by any means, but they should certainly take into account that this is an interactive roleplaying game, that we all partake in for the sake of fun.

[evil_erdlu]

GDB posts like this, THIS, frustrate newbies and make them not want to play.

If you have issues with folks playing not to the soul of the game, REPORT THEM. If you feel you find yourself forced to ask for second changes, you're doing something wrong. As mentioned in 'help armageddon' - one of the first helpfiles I read, I'm a newbie myself.

If you can't handle the harsh atmosphere of 'rinth, go play a kadian merchant!

Labyrinth is supposed to be a lawless zone where gangs rule. If you want to do your thing and not face repercussions from gangs, you yourself are trying to bend the reality. Think of trying to sell guns in a back alley of a third-world country and getting caught red-handed. You die. Simple. Think of mafia, refusing to pay them. You die. Think of foulmouthing the local gang-leader. You die.

I'm repeating one last time, this is a wish from a newbie. I came to this MUD, reading and hearing a lot of false advertisement. Staff favouring folks, magickers fireballing commoners around, uberwarriors PKing anything that moves, yada yada..

I ignored them, experienced the MUD and found out that it's simply [flaming]people's whining when things don't turn out their way IG[/flaming]. Stop advertising your own MUD badly in GDB. Report to the staff or SHUT UP!

If you want to make a guide "How to RP in 'rinth?"/"How to play a magicker and remain invisible to common populace?"/"The right way to play a hunter" etc. and give clues to folks how to properly RP and be an example, I'll bow before you and my goddamn mouth won't open even once, maybe only for grovelling. BUT IF YOU WHINE, I'LL BE AGAINST IT. IT'S NOT LIKE THAT. I PLAYED IN THE SAME AREA, THE SAME GAME AND I KNOW IT'S NOT LIKE THAT.

Edited to add: Zalanthas is harsh, n00b!

[Dalmeth]

It's just to say - the rinth is fun because it's lawless and free. Let me have some damned freedom! Just a little. Please?

Just a note :  typically, lawless and free do not go well together.

[Tisiphone]

It's just to say - the rinth is fun because it's lawless and free. Let me have some damned freedom! Just a little. Please?

Just a note :  typically, lawless and free do not go well together.

Oh, you silly Platonist, you.

[Dalmeth]

Oh, you silly Platonist, you.

When people confuse lawless with free, they usually refer to a form of oligarchy, or just a lack of central authority.  Influential groups form a code of conduct that restricts competition in specific areas.  A form of law still technically exists, it's just more fluid.

[staggerlee]

That's where you're wrong. I have every right to say you roleplay like a tard.

If your roleplay(or lack of it) is generally making the game less fun for a substantial amount of people, wouldn't it be simply selfish for you to continue playing the way you are? Obviously there is an issue here, and all you are offering for help is "Quit crying noobs, zalanthas is harsh!."

Actually the GDB is not the place to take complaints about the roleplaying of others.  If you're concerned about something you see in game, file a player complaint or send an email to the staff so that they can properly look into it.

[Yam]

I think it is pretty clear that this thread is not a complaint directed at any specific person or group of people and is merely a discussion.

[spicemustflow]

Actually the GDB is not the place to take complaints about the roleplaying of others.  If you're concerned about something you see in game, file a player complaint or send an email to the staff so that they can properly look into it.

By that logic, the roleplaying discussion should be closed. We're not saying this player is a cunt, but discussing the new trends amongst the playerbase.

[Yam]

Actually the GDB is not the place to take complaints about the roleplaying of others.  If you're concerned about something you see in game, file a player complaint or send an email to the staff so that they can properly look into it.

By that logic, the roleplaying discussion should be closed. We're not saying this player is a cunt, but discussing the new trends amongst the playerbase.

It's not good to escalate tensions. Having said that, this isn't really a new trend. It's a pretty stable part of the game and it has always been a bone of contention. Threads are often closed on the subject because it can devolve into a flame fest if the involved parties are not respectful and pleasant in their, ah, discussion.

[staggerlee]

Actually the GDB is not the place to take complaints about the roleplaying of others.  If you're concerned about something you see in game, file a player complaint or send an email to the staff so that they can properly look into it.

By that logic, the roleplaying discussion should be closed. We're not saying this player is a cunt, but discussing the new trends amongst the playerbase.

It's not good to escalate tensions. Having said that, this isn't really a new trend. It's a pretty stable part of the game and it has always been a bone of contention. Threads are often closed on the subject because it can devolve into a flame fest if the involved parties are not respectful and pleasant in their, ah, discussion.

The problem with discussions of this sort is that they either turn into massive displays of FUD or are based entirely on observational evidence, which necessarily refers to individual experiences and tend to lack full information or perspective.

If there's general concern about the ability of player leaders in the game I'd suggest that a more constructive approach might be a thread about how to play a successful leadership role and make it fun for yourself, your underlings and your enemies. 

[Synthesis]

Why so serious?

[spicemustflow]

I agree we should keep it civil, but not every complaint should be refuted by the joker card of "you don't have all the information, so die and enjoy the game".

[Sokotra]

What I'm disturbed about isn't particularly the topic, but the topic's being in the GDB. We, fellow players, have no right to force our wishes into other players RP. We, fellow players have no right to declare others guilty for some behaviour (take it to the staff, they're volunteering to maintain the game). Witch hunts are what disturb me and I guess I'm done with this thread - repeating myself over and over.

Hmm, well I think you've gotten a bit too defensive here.  Nobody is trying to "force" anyone to do anything.  Nobody is declaring anyone guilty, that I know of.

I don't see anything wrong with people discussing this on the GDB.  That's silly.  We are having a simple discussion, I thought, but it seems like somehow it has turned into something more than that.  I guess you lost me somewhere.  

I don't see anything wrong with people requesting more RP possibilities than just killing someone that is really not much of a threat at all.  Trust me, I'm all for the harshness of Armageddon.  I play a lot of thugs, raiders, mercenaries, and rogues.  Sometimes things end up in death, but usually it can be avoided to let yourself and everyone else have more fun rather than just getting stuff from a corpse object.  It's just my opinion that you need to have some self restraint, especially when you become a badass that can kill most players without them having a chance to get away.  When any of my characters get fairly tough, I come across dozens of noobs and weak players that I could easily kill for "IC" reasons.  However, I usually end up having much more fun roleplaying with them in multiple other ways.  Lots of times it ends up in a scuffle or a brief battle... but even then, it's real easy for me to just put my weapons away and/or turn mercy on and work things out IC without killing them in a few rounds of combat or a disappointing death via poison.  I like combat in Arm... I use it a lot, but I'm not going to go around killing weak players just because I can or I have a "reason" when there's many other realistic and IC ways to deal with them without turning their PC into a corpse-object.  Very few, if any, of them ever end up being a threat in the future... in fact, they usually end up doing what I ask them to do after I beat them down and let them live, if it comes to that.

Just my opinion.. I think it should be okay to discuss that here on the GDB.

[Nile]

Huh...I don't understand all these complaints. Its the 'rinth, deal with it or get out.

[spicemustflow]

The point is that it doesn't happen exclusively in the rinth.

[Janna]

I'm about 90% in agreement with the Erdlu. The other 10% are the 'exceptions' where a player in such a position would allow themselves to be beaten in some regard.

People in power stay in power by showing that power. For those of you who have seen it, think of "Gangs of New York." 'The Priest' as we find out later, let the butcher live and simply beat his arse pretty good to teach him a lesson, and what happened? The Butcher gathered more people to him, got stronger and came back to kill him. Then, Leo's character screws up, gets caught and the Butcher lets him live. Leo heals up, gathers people, comes back and kills the Butcher. Are we seeing a trend in this?

Oh, but wait, the certain gangs established in the 'Rinth could crush whatever some upstart gang could bring at them, so how does that count?! Easy. Why would a gang want some upstart gang to be allowed to grow and grow and grow until the point they -have- to do something about them at which time it costs them three times as many lives and resources to do?

Oh how about, "But a beating would do it! My PC would learn from that beating and run off, lick his/her wounds then come back and be a team player!" ...How does that leader know this? It's the -Labyrinth-. Stab your own mother in the back to carve off some skin to eat that day, but said leader should just 'trust' you to be good and not stab them in the back as soon as you can down the road to take their spot like -anyone- else in the Rinth would do?

If you want to be a solo thug in the 'Rinth, all the power to you, but do so out of sight of those who can and will kill you for causing them grief. If you're so stuck on this conflict RP, then do the bloody ground work to create a group of people around you, build up from the shadows, make the right connections and then take it to whoever you're pissed at and let it unfold. This "Leave me alone for now so I can get buff right in front of your face, then kill you" is completely laughable.

My sids.

[Sokotra]

If there is someone that might actually pose a real threat, fine...(which actually seems pretty rare to me) and again, there are many other possibilities.

[jhunter]

I'd like to repeat again, if there's a gang going on somewhere about something, anything illegal anywhere, you can't simply go there and start your own business. You either remain hidden, submit to the powerful or be so powerful that the powers that be can't mess with you. If you can do neither of these, it's not the other player's responsibility to grant your character's survival.[\quote]


Honestly, I agree with this completely. I don't think that we always have to resort to killing immediately but, there have been times that I've tried to do otherwise only to have the person force my hand. If your pc messes up and the end result is that your pc dies...it's noone else's fault but that character's. Some people seem to think that they can have their pc do whatever the hell they want with no consequences and complain whenever someone enforces realistic enough consequences for their actions upon them.

[Delstro]

Killing off all competition is a good way to start solo-RPing all the time.

What's more interesting?
Having someone you coulda killed but didn't and now have someone to hassle rob every other week.

or

Not, because you killed them when they first popped up.

I'm going with the first one, because I hate solo RP. In a place like the rinth when population grows and falters, your are doing more harm than good by killing off everybody when they pose a threat. Why don't you control them, use them, abuse them, then lose them? Why skip to losing them?

[Tisiphone]

Killing off all competition is a good way to start solo-RPing all the time.

What's more interesting?
Having someone you coulda killed but didn't and now have someone to hassle rob every other week.

or

Not, because you killed them when they first popped up.

I'm going with the first one, because I hate solo RP. In a place like the rinth when population grows and falters, your are doing more harm than good by killing off everybody when they pose a threat. Why don't you control them, use them, abuse them, then lose them? Why skip to losing them?

I think this is, so far, the only real compelling argument.

[Spoon]

I think powerful PCs ought to pick on people their own size. That's bound to drag a whole bunch of PCs into the equation.

[Sokotra]

Killing off all competition is a good way to start solo-RPing all the time.

What's more interesting?
Having someone you coulda killed but didn't and now have someone to hassle rob every other week.

or

Not, because you killed them when they first popped up.

I'm going with the first one, because I hate solo RP. In a place like the rinth when population grows and falters, your are doing more harm than good by killing off everybody when they pose a threat. Why don't you control them, use them, abuse them, then lose them? Why skip to losing them?

I think this is, so far, the only real compelling argument.

True, but then more players will continue to pop up here and there... so you can continue playing whack-a-mole instead of RP'ing.  Like I said, I like getting involved in combat as well... but snuffing out any and all possibilities (especially since most probably are really not much of a threat and probably won't ever become a threat) is a little dumb and boring.

[Delstro]

More people start popping up? So you can't RP, you have to continue to "Whack people back down"? Well, with all these people you are dominating, I know they've been getting stronger, use that. Abuse that. Then squelch when it gets out of control. Why skip to the end again?

If you are going along, asserting your authority over these other people, why don't you let them join you, so they can control those beneath them?

Take this scenario. Take the following as truths.
We have 70 people that logged on yesterday.
Most people, when they lose a character, pick a different place/role.
You have killed 2 PCs a week in your area.
Every week, instead of those 2 PCs creating RP and having fun with you, they are creating RP and having fun somewhere else.

If you "Squelched" them the first time they rose up against you, they are going to give your area a break until they think your PC has moved on. I know I would.

If you did that to 5 PCs in a place where a lot of people don't play, you are effectively killing the zone for playability and for fun. When others come to the place, they are going to see a lack of PCs, get bored, and die/leave. Leaving you that more alone.

If you gave 4 of those 5 a good RPing time over the course of a month, 2 of them might just go right back into the area to RP with you more. That is a win win.

So, like I was saying, if you like solo RP. Play whack a PC. If you like being entertained, keep the other PCs in their place.

[titansfan]

First off, i think the original poster had it nearly perfect.....I have played in the Rinth ALOT and I have seen amazingly powerful leaders who have let people go and it turned out better than if they would have killed them. I honestly think from my personal experiences that everyone should deal with it that way. I had to hurry with this comment otherwise I would have went into more details sorry.

[RogueGunslinger]

Killing off all competition is a good way to start solo-RPing all the time.

What's more interesting?
Having someone you coulda killed but didn't and now have someone to hassle rob every other week.

or

Not, because you killed them when they first popped up.

I'm going with the first one, because I hate solo RP. In a place like the rinth when population grows and falters, your are doing more harm than good by killing off everybody when they pose a threat. Why don't you control them, use them, abuse them, then lose them? Why skip to losing them?

I think this is, so far, the only real compelling argument.

I thought that was the argument.

[evil_erdlu]

I heartily agree. Killing off folks then wandering alone speaking to NPCs would be... boring. But now I will roleplay (we love roleplaying, eh?) a boss and play two scenarios.

Note: We're assuming the boss's gang is supposed to have a monopoly in spice dealing in Allanak streets. This is just a scenario.

Code Select Expand

Secret Hideout [NESWUD Save Quit]
This is the place..

The 'rinth rat stands here.
>
The 'rinth rat tells you, in Sirihish:
  "Yes, boss. Two missing fingers in left hand, brown skin, like shit. Usual clothing. Hunts his escru in Gaj. I saw'im sell a few grains only."
>emote lets out a sigh and nods.
The boss lets out a sigh and nods.
>think Don't they ever learn?

.... Our boss changes clothes, wears a veil etc. then goes to Gaj.

The Gladiator and Gaj [NES]
This is Gaj
There are several NPCs and tables here.
The shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer is sitting at the bar here.
>emote pushes through the crowds towards the bar, hands clasped behind.
The male in a black silk veil pushes through the crowds towards the bar, hands clasped behind.
>change accent southern
You now speak in southern accent
>talk (leaning towards ~dealer, voice hushed) Greetings, heard you deal in pleasure.
At your table, you say in Sirihish, leaning towards the shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer:
   "Greetings, heard you deal in pleasure."
>
The shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer looks at you.
>
At your table, the shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer says in rinthi-accented Sirihish, frowning:
   "Who said that?"
>talk You do, or not?
At your table, you say in Sirihish:
   "You do, or not?"
>
At your table, the shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer says in rinthi-accented Sirihish, grinning widely:
   "How much?"
>emote lets out a soft sigh.
The male in a black silk veil lets out a soft sigh.
>palm ribbon pouch
You palm a pink ribbon from your silk pouch. (Let's assume your gang sign is a pink ribbon worn on hair.)
>wear ribbon
You wear a pink ribbon on your hair.
>
The shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer stands up.
>
The shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer stealthily moves north.
>emote slowly shakes his head.
The male in a black silk veil slowly shakes his head.
>contact assassinA
You suffer from the use of the Way.
You contact the first killer's mind.
>psi Manhunt. You know the target. Delay cancelled.
You send a psionic message to the first killer:
   "Manhunt. You know the target. Delay cancelled."
You suffer from the use of the Way.
>
You suffer from the use of the Way.
>cease
You break the psionic contact
>contact assassinB
You suffer from the use of the Way.
You contact the second killer's mind.
>psi Manhunt. Follow AssassinA.
You send a psionic message to the first killer:
   "Manhunt. Follow AssassinA."
>
You suffer from the use of the Way.
>
You suffer from the use of the Way.
>cease
You break the psionic contact
>

I wouldn't bother a second chance for such a person. I got there for a kill, I was there for only confirmation, I will kill. Now let's warp the scenario a bit...

Code Select Expand

......
You wear a pink ribbon on your hair.
>
The shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer looks at you, eyes grown.
>
At your table, the shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer says in rinthi-accented Sirihish, voice hushed:
   "I... have time for one last ale?"
>remo veil
You remove a black silk veil.
>change accent rinthi
You now speak in rinthi accent
>talk Time for what?
At your table, you say, in Sirihish:
   "Time for what?"
>
At your table, the shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer says in Sirihish, head clasped between hands:
   "I'll die, eh?"
>talk (rubbing at his cheek) Maybe ye kin run away?
At your table, you say, in Sirihish, rubbing at his cheek:
   "Maybe ye kin run away?"
>
The shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer slowly shakes his head, lips curved into a soft smile.
>
At your table, the shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer says in Sirihish, head clasped between hands:
   "You own where I live. I've nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. I tried mah chance, I rolled snake eyes.. End of story."
>stand (touching %dealer shoulder)
Touching the shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer's shoulder, you stand up from the bar.
>tell dealer Maybe it's not. Come to us tonight. We'll see.
You tell the shifty eyed, three fingered spice dealer, in Sirihish:
    "Maybe it's not. Come to us tonight. We'll see."
>emote wanders over to the bar's entrance, a smile on his face.
The boss wanders over to the bar's entrance, a smile on his face.
>think This one may be of use.
You think:
   "This one may be of use."
>contact assassinA
You suffer from the use of the Way.
You contact the first killer's mind.
>psi Manhunt cancelled
You send a psionic message to the first killer:
   "Manhunt cancelled."
You suffer from the use of the Way.
>
You suffer from the use of the Way.
>cease
You break the psionic contact

It's not always other player's fault. It's sometimes our fault to be not worthy enough to keep alive. EH?

[Delstro]

You could kill him... OR you could disrupt his source, beat him, report him to the authorities, beat him to unconciousness then throw him into the gaj, or tattoo a onto his face. Either way, you get some fun out of it, you involve other people, and you get the point across instead of...

The skinny tells the half giant- Subdue them.
Half giant subdues you.
The skinny stabs you to death.

Yeaaa..... Boring.

[Lord of Charas]

@evil_erdlu -

That's so selfishly subjective . . . Infact, it's frustrating even to see.
If that example b) happened within -any- clan, let -alone- one in the
'rinth, I would be completely insulted. Yes, even if I was the victim
in this case.

You're doing it wrong, okay, those examples were completely and
rhetorically stacked in the favour of your own arguement. Insane.

Never again okay ? Seriously, you're beginning to get silly here.
Stop while you're still ahead. Jeez.

No one's gonna send assassins on a guy they can could simply
tip off and have arrested and tortured.

Thats' what corrupt militia are for.

[Yam]

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't like when people sacrifice other peoples fun, for the sake of making the game world more 'realistic' and harsh. I'll end on that note.

[NoteworthyFellow]

No one's gonna send assassins on a guy they can could simply
tip off and have arrested and tortured.

Thats' what corrupt militia are for.

The best villains don't beat the system; they use it.

[Zoan]

Lex Luthor for president.

[The Archbishop]

Plain and simple if you play in the rinth, your gonna die sooner or later. If you point at labyrinth you doom your character to death.
If you step past Hathor's chances are your gonna die. If you do anything anywhere in the rinth expect fully to die, and be surprised if you don't.

[Synthesis]

Plain and simple if you play in the rinth Known World, you're gonna die sooner or later. If you point at labyrinth any starting location, you doom your character to death.
If you step past Hathor's out of the Hall of Kings chances are you're gonna die. If you do anything anywhere in the rinth Known World expect fully to die, and be surprised if you don't.

ftfy 

[The Archbishop]

Well I just thought this had to be reiterated for the rinth, since so many people seemed to have some expectancy to survive in the rinth.
But your corrections are duely noted and highly supported.

[Jo]

I don't know about that stuff, OP.  Believe it or not, I haven't really had problems like these ones playing in the 'rinth, and my longest lived characters have all been based out of there.  You have to understand (both IC'ly -because a 'rinther would - and OOC'ly) that there are some things/fees/tributes/behaviours that the characters or organizations will NOT bend on.  The only time that I have seen PC's murdered are when they have defied someone openly or they have not been willing to work out a deal with those who are in power.  If you want to start your own crew or be that independent badass, then make sure that you're covering your ass with payouts etc, because there is no way that a bigger and more established crew would -ever- let you take business from them without getting their share.

I could even argue that 'rinther characters have it far easier than others, especially in the beginning... I can't go into too many details (because it's IC of course), but I bet you that -many- 'rinth veterans will agree with me on that.  It's all about being creative with your interactions, and keeping it in your head that the 'rinth is one of the most dangerous places in the known world.  Your character should be acting accordingly.  Just to add to that, some of the best roleplayers I've played with were in the 'rinth.

[touringCompl3t3]

You could kill him... OR you could disrupt his source, beat him, report him to the authorities, beat him to unconciousness then throw him into the gaj, or tattoo a onto his face. Either way, you get some fun out of it, you involve other people, and you get the point across instead of...

The skinny tells the half giant- Subdue them.
Half giant subdues you.
The skinny stabs you to death.

Yeaaa..... Boring.

I like your idea, Delstro.  I hope to have you as an enemy some day.  May the best man win.

=-)

[Lord of Charas]

I think that in many of the cases such as these, and I point no fingers as I say
this,is a desire to acquire more skills/equiptment, less desire to retain power.
Power is only half of the issue here, since no two-bit rat is going to touch your
power without you really seeing it. That's if you really have it. No crime boss
worth his salt is going to target those awkward, inexperienced
rookies as rivals to slay, or else his people start thinking that he's
actually -threatened- by these newbs. I mean, what will they do if they
start to think he's really that insecure ? They'll pop -him - off, since obviously,
if the little guys a threat, then they likely present twice, if not three times the
threat that the newb poses, and they can cull him easy.

So really. It's all down to the boss being eager for some more newbie wealth
(1/3), or, an insecure weakling that needs to be replaced (1/3)

Ever heard the saying, violence as the first option highest form of cowardice ?
Doubly so when you go after the more fragile targets. Very psychological.

I mean to say, what sort of master hunter go along proving to others -his- own
power and pwnage skills by hunting a flippin' tregil !? They don't prove to
the younger hunters their power/skill by killing off the weaker quarry, they
prove it by freckin' owning the bigger prey - like tarantulas and tembos !

Tregils a newbs game.

Newb-killings for thugs and bullies that want to show off to their bosses, -not -
the cunning, self-assured alpha's who -are- the bosses.         

They don't need to show off to anyone. A few grains sold under their noses
isn't gona bother them. It's none of their precious concern.

HOWEVRE.

It might bother their own spice-dealers though. They're the ones who run
the business of selling the spice. . .They enforce the monopolies because it
directly concerns -them-. It's their biz. The boss just kinda skims off of that.

So. This comes to that very last third (1/3). The percentage of the newb-killings
that are probably done by bosses who actually -have- a valid reason or have
been unavoidably steered into commiting the act by the very victim themself.

See ? It's complex isn't it ?

We don't need to force judgement on the bosses who might have had
their hands forced by them or by weaker employees? There could be more
than first meets the eye. . . . Just the other 2/3rds of 'em. 

It all just comes down to one simple equation.

33% of the lead3rs are petty/insecure/weaklings
33% of the lead3rs are in it just for the newb-golds
33% of the lead3rs actually might have a valid reason.

[Barzalene]

I want to clarify. Earlier in this conversation I pointed out that to rule by fear you have to be scary. You have to be willing to snuff out your problems and make sure they don't continue to be problems.
This however != Find problem and kill them with as little interaction as possible. They should be given the opportunity to repent and be useful to you. However, if they insist that you kill them at that point, by making it clear that they will continue to present a difficulty, however small, they need to be snuffed out. In much the same way you may try to shoo a mosquito before slapping it.

Or in other words, try other avenues before just killing everyone that you come across.

[touringCompl3t3]

I want to clarify. Earlier in this conversation I pointed out that to rule by fear you have to be scary. You have to be willing to snuff out your problems and make sure they don't continue to be problems.
This however != Find problem and kill them with as little interaction as possible. They should be given the opportunity to repent and be useful to you. However, if they insist that you kill them at that point, by making it clear that they will continue to present a difficulty, however small, they need to be snuffed out. In much the same way you may try to shoo a mosquito before slapping it.

Or in other words, try other avenues before just killing everyone that you come across.

Very true.  Another thing to consider, and Lord Charas has hinted at this as did the OP, is that it's not strictly necessary to have a relationship with all other PCs in the game, even if they're in the same line of work that you're in. 

For example, I'm a database programmer IRL, and yet out of the five or six hundred other DB programmers that live in this city, I'm only personally acquainted with about five of them.  Even though I'm surrounded by hundreds of rivals, I don't personally spend all of my time spying on them and plotting to off them, even though it's in my best interest to do so. 

While crime is by tradition a more violent and more competitive field than computer programming, even drug dealers are willing to respect boundaries rather than risk turf wars that are bad for business.  This was in part (if my limited understanding is correct) why the American mafia was allowed to flourish for as long as it was -- it served as a sort of check and balance against the violent turf wars that were dangerous for the gangsters and the customers, as well as law enforcement and innocent civilians as well.  In organized crime, turf wars = bad.  Last resort. 

I think that some people believe otherwise because so many gang movies portray the most turbulent and interesting aspect of gang leadership, most specifically turf wars.  The "business as usual" aspect of organized crime is far less exciting, yet is far more typical and representative of the day-to-day operation of a crime syndicate.

Without having extensive experience as a mobster, my understanding is that a mobster's typical day might include collecting information, monitoring operations, smoothing over problems, meeting with industry insiders, investigating tips, collecting rumors, generating business leads, building relationships and brokering deals.  Violence is the result of a failure in the normal business process.  Thugs make money off of violence -- gangsters do not.

[titansfan]

That's an amazing way of putting it touringcomp.....I've had characters in the Rinth that have died for small and worthless reasons as they gained a little power, when they could have been used and would have listened to any of the powers. I play to let other players have a good time, not to gain absolute power...it is a game afterall...and I view roleplay as a notch over complete tyranny of everyone in a certain area.

[Clearsighted]

This by no means applies to everyone, (or even the majority, I hope)

But...

Alot of people resort to PKing out of insecurity. They get so caught up in the adrenaline that either they aren't thinking, just spamming and trying everything they can to not die. Or else, they are afraid (however silly it sounds) of the consequences of letting you live. When 99% of the time, that person is 10 times more terrified of you.

It's not hard to leave mercy on and beat people up with some clubs, rob them and walk away. I wish everyone was on the same page. But sadly, they're not.

The other reason that people kill is boredom. Which makes them do more risky things. Like murdering people and getting themselves murdered.

That said. Some people deserve killing, and it's a noble, glorious thing to wipe them out.

Most of the time however, it's boredom or insecurity.

Also. When those in a position of authority are challenged, they're sometimes at a loss for how to respond and keep their 'street cred', whether a 'rinthi boss, a templar or a nooble...and killing is the answer.

That said. Perhaps people need to practice being better victims too. It can take just one bad experience of a person getting robbed of 50 sids and crying to their desert elf mindbender templar High Lord friend to rape your face, to swear off leaving survivors forever.

[Maso]

I haven't played in the 'Rinth for about 8 months but I was there for a good long time and during that period I don't think I ever saw a boss outright kill someone without good reason. I saw three awesome bosses (of different gangs) who all put the 'give them a chance and try to make them useful' practise into play. In my opinion the majority of mindless killing in the 'Rinth is not in the hands of the bosses, but the thugs who work for them (or don't work for them).

However, being a 'boss' in the underworld of Armageddon is not really relative to being a 'boss' of the American Mafia, I don't imagine it's as easy either. Despite possibly having a great NPC and vNPC following of minions you don't actually tend to have that much fire power, and even the little man can be a dangerous threat - this doesn't make you particularly weak, it's just the way the game is. It's very easy to scew someone over, find a magicker to wipe their ass out, be a magicker in disguise, whine to a templar, find them offpeak without their PC gang around etc etc in the reality of the game. Whereas they should have a large number of 'employees' beneath them who are loyal to protect their power (the NPC - vNPC population) this is not always represented well by the PC population.

Sometimes you just have to kill that newb who spat in your face, because he saw your face and now you don't trust him to do what you told him - because you can't watch him while your offline.

I can confidently say that during my short stint as a 'Rinthi crime boss - I really wish I'd killed that damn newb character.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah... I usually play that noob character you wish you killed, come to think of it.

I have power issues. I have intelligence issues. My characters have always had the latter, and will always try to gain the former... Man I suck at this game.

[morrigan]

Weighing in...

Some of the problems arise because a lot of people who play in the rinth have never lived in a similar place irl. I'm not insulting people when I say this next part, so don't get all ruffled. The majority of people who play muds, are -not- tough, street smart people. Most of them are intelligent, well educated, living in a decent neighborhood kind of people. This causes a lot of the people who become leaders of sorts in the rinth, to have to try to imagine how things would work, and a lot of times it's wrong. I always return to the rinth, it's my favorite place. Every time I go back I find the leadership of my favorite rinth group doing stupid things. I don't want to go into too much detail and risk being too IC, but some things just wouldn't happen, Like demanding certain amounts of sid from people in return for protection. Either people work for you, and get protection, or they don't.

I agree with what some others have said, the leaders who go after the little, small time nobodies, are silly. All that would do in a rl setting is show your followers that you were afraid, and in low income areas irl, that's the worst thing you can do. And as, RGS(I believe it was) said, these type of leaders are extremely easy to overthrow with a bit of planning, because when it comes down to it, they have no idea what they're doing. So..don't get too worked up, characters are fairly temporary in the rinth. Either patiently wait for someone to get rid of the problem, or put in a little planning and do it yourself.

Coded strength does not always = IC strength. I had a 15 day burglar that people were terrified of...and I -thought- he was fairly nice and reasonable.