With great power comes great assininity (in the rinth)

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Yes, I know how monopolies work. Yes, I can guarentee I'll get fucked with if I refuse tribute. 

And no, I'm not talking about current leadership, though I think most of you have been around the block enough to tell that something did occur that put a frown on my face and got me thinking. Actually, I did have small beefs with all the big time leadership, and was let off easy a couple of times. The current leadership isn't bad, IMO.  It's more of a collection of little things I've noticed reoccur over my years of playing that made me post this.

My point wasn't about why they do it, it's how they do it.

Yes, I can understand (mostly) why they do what they do. I'm just hoping that someone will remember this when they get to that position, and think a little more about what they're doing. If you can kill someone for being irritating, then it stands to reason that you could just as easily beat them up. If they keep it up, then it's their own fault they end up with a knife in their back.

I'm just upset because it comes to murder all too often, and way too soon way too frequently. I can't specifically target the people in power for this alone, but they do seem to be some of the bigger offenders.

I just want a little more wiggle room as to what you consider a threat. It's no fun for anyone if you try and put 100% of the playerbase under your shadow. You eliminate a lot of opportunity for fun RP and situations for EVERY PLAYER IN THE RINTH. There is no way to win the game of Armageddon. All you can do is have fun along the way. Why crush every small time crook before they have a chance to get good enough to give you some sport? Isn't it funner when they can actually fight back a little? Hell, you might even have to involve other PCs in your plot if they get a little bit of weight behind them!

[Sokotra]

Or at least beat them up a couple of times as a warning, and then maybe proceed to breaking limbs or removing fingers if it continues... and THEN, maybe kill if absolutely necessary.  It's just boring and ignorant if 1 refusal equals the tough guy running in and completely destroying you in a couple rounds of combat and poison to boot.  Give me a break.  Not only that, but role play missing your mark once in a while... don't always get the kill just because you know that OOC'ly and code-wise you can do it anytime you want.  Or if you are that much of a badass, hire some other little guy that is more equal to harass the little guy you are putting the pressure on.  Anything other than "kill little guy, little guy dead, the end".

[Fathi]

I'm just upset because it comes to murder all too often, and way too soon way too frequently.

While I'm not trying to defend egregious amounts of PKing as the glorious solution to every social problem in the 'Rinth or elsewhere, you also have to look at things from the murderer's side.

Often times, leader characters being driven to murdering people for "minor" offenses is a direct result of the victim's own actions and reactions to the situation.

Too many people, when caught doing minor things that really should only warrant a beatdown, simply refuse to take the beatdown.

I'm sure everybody who posts on this board has witnessed at least one, "SCREW YOU AND SCREW YOUR HIGHLORD, MAN, I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE YOUR SHIT!" speech from somebody getting executed by a templar. I've seen this happen with 'Rinthi PCs plenty of times, too.

Not to claim that you've done this personally, OP, but enough people do that it causes problems.

Personally, I have held my finger off the PK trigger when the person who wronged my character apologises and doesn't have an attitude about being caught. I honestly believe that a large majority of powerful characters in this game are played by people who would do likewise.

Conversely, I've PKed somebody for a completely minor breach of clan rules because that person's reaction to getting caught swiping from a locker was to freak out and rant, spit on my character, refuse to return the stolen items, denounce my character in front of several of her subordinates, and then threaten everybody present.

A little bit of groveling and apologising goes a long way, please, players of people who piss off powerful people, keep this in mind.

[evil_erdlu]

Gah again?

I don't see the problem.. My first real character - read 'who didn't die in a few hours' - lived in 'rinth. He didn't train skills at all. Maybe from time to time he would go try a backstab here, a throw there, that's all. He could barely kill 'unarmed' NPCs.

He lived. He became an important asset. He joined plots. Noone messed with him. I was a newbie. I was learning even the coded combat. I don't see the problem.. Problem is...

1. Why doesn't leader X target NPCs, VNPCs? If you look deeper, you'll see leader X is only a middle-ranking leader in that clan. He has several NPC, VNPC allies and higher-ups. They are squishing any NPC, VNPC resistance while he kills your character. I always thought this is the rule of the game. NPCs, VNPCs offer flavour but we're supposed to interact with other PCs in this MUD as PCs.

2. I am no harm to his business. Why did he kill me? "Smash the snake's head while it's young.", a Turkish saying tells us. Why should he be so gentle and give you room to become powerful, then be a real threat? Is there an unseen code of RP hidden somewhere in the docs that tells us: "This is a holywood movie implementation of a post-apocalyptic world. You players that play villains: You are supposed to let your opponents live and only brag to them and maybe torture just a tad bit till they become a real threat. You're also supposed to hide the only weapon that can kill you in your secret chambers and mark it carefully for the heroes to find."

Really folks. This is not a movie where the big bad guys let the little guys live till they get strong. In real life, little guys join, pay or hide. In 'rinth you join, pay or hide.

3. I didn't pay tribute and I die just for that? You disobey a templar and you die for that. You can't manage to negotiate for your life with that defiler and you die for that. You don't pay tribute to that angry man in dark, hooded cloak and you die for that. This.. IS... ARMAGEDDON!!!

When you can't pay the tribute, ask for an alternative, kindly. Spy for them. scavenge for them. Be a man-whore if it's all it takes. There will always be an alternative if you know how to negotiate.

4. I'm a PC. If they kill PCs left and right, plots won't move on... Damn right they will..

Just my two cents...

[Yam]

The only problem I have with some situations is when a leader type character targets PCs because, well, they're PCs.

Code Select Expand

The ratty 'rinther says, "Yo boss, I here there's some brown-haired, green-eyed guy selling spice on our turf!"

The boss says, "That filthy motherfucker, I'm going to murder him!"

An Alley [NS]
The brown-haired, green-eyed guy is standing here.

The boss arrives from the south.

The boss says, "What the fuck are you doing selling spice on our turf, motherfucker?!"

The brown-haired, green-eyed guy says, "What are you talking about? I'm just a poor 'rin- AGGGHHHH!"

The boss has stabbed the fuck out of the brown-haired, green-eyed guy.

I see this happen a lot. Templars do it. 'Rinthers do it. Desert elves do it. It's a pretty universal thing. A lot of people don't do it.

It's quite understandable, but it isn't very cool or realistic. Just because you as a player know something doesn't mean that your character should. I believe that this is what people are talking about when they refer to over-snuffing out competition.

[evil_erdlu]

Yes, it's unrealistic.

He should have brought two guys along. He should have snuck in instead of walking in. Why is the boss bothering to miss his mark?

.....

This one, I like...

Focus on the first two responses of Gort. Of course I'm not saying there's only one kind of answer to being a good villain and it only involves killing, but at least one kind of villain would snuff any resistance instantly, with extreme caution. *waves a hand* There is no over-snuffing...

And you ask, how the boss instantly knows the PCs from NPCs? Because his ratting PC companion didn't rat out NPCs. He did rat out a PC, so the boss did kill a PC. I want to repeat the boss had a lot of VNPC allies in the same group, they had heard tales of folks dealing drugs - VNPCs. They had virtual encounters with those virtual drug dealers and the virtual scavengers took away everything, including the corpses. PCs should deal with PCs, NPCs should deal with NPCs, VNPCs should deal with VNPCs primarily when it comes to interaction.

Let's make up a scenario. You are a denizen of a totalitarian regime - shall we say an african banana republic? - and you want to deal drugs. There's a drug dealer living in the hood. He has a monopoly, backed up by the big boss living in the capital. Do you _really_ think he would let you move on and deal drugs freely to high-school kids before making any kind of arrangement?

C'mon... 'rinth _should_ be harsh. Find the boss, then give him an offer, or be strong enough and demolish anything the boss can send your way. If you're neither strong nor cooperative, I don't see any problems in you being another corpse; 25 'sids for another newbie.

[spicemustflow]

I'm just upset because it comes to murder all too often, and way too soon way too frequently.

While I'm not trying to defend egregious amounts of PKing as the glorious solution to every social problem in the 'Rinth or elsewhere, you also have to look at things from the murderer's side.

Often times, leader characters being driven to murdering people for "minor" offenses is a direct result of the victim's own actions and reactions to the situation.

Too many people, when caught doing minor things that really should only warrant a beatdown, simply refuse to take the beatdown.

I'm sure everybody who posts on this board has witnessed at least one, "SCREW YOU AND SCREW YOUR HIGHLORD, MAN, I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE YOUR SHIT!" speech from somebody getting executed by a templar. I've seen this happen with 'Rinthi PCs plenty of times, too.

Not to claim that you've done this personally, OP, but enough people do that it causes problems.

Personally, I have held my finger off the PK trigger when the person who wronged my character apologises and doesn't have an attitude about being caught. I honestly believe that a large majority of powerful characters in this game are played by people who would do likewise.

Conversely, I've PKed somebody for a completely minor breach of clan rules because that person's reaction to getting caught swiping from a locker was to freak out and rant, spit on my character, refuse to return the stolen items, denounce my character in front of several of her subordinates, and then threaten everybody present.

A little bit of groveling and apologising goes a long way, please, players of people who piss off powerful people, keep this in mind.

That is your experience. I was killed a few times (in and out of rinth) for either having a big tongue or doing something stupid (like being caught pirating spice). Every time my char was obviously and completely not dangerous to the killer, both physically or in terms of having connections etc. And I begged and groveled. Two times I didn't even manage to finish the typing before seeing the mantis head. I mean, if they broke all of the fingers of my pickpocket it would be cool, but no, it's kill. With no emotes, no cool torture, nothing. Just a shitty death, the kind any npc guard can give you. And once I was killed simply for being mistaken for a magicker, no other explanation for killing an old woman... I'd mention another example of itchy fingers but it's too recent and involves a live character. Whose guts I'd like to see on the floor. You end fearing those people only OOCly.

Of course, there are notable exceptions, but we're not talking about them now.

[Yam]

Yes, it's unrealistic.

He should have brought two guys along. He should have snuck in instead of walking in. Why is the boss bothering to miss his mark?

.....

Probably because there are tons upon tons of virtual people with green eyes and brown hair in the Labyrinth.

Your response is exactly the reason why people tend to bitch about some leaders over-policing other people. It's simply poor behavior to automatically know that the first green-eyed, brown-haired person you see IS the green-eyed, brown-haired person who is dealing spice on your turf just because he's a player character. If there is other evidence (like, for instance, your underling specifically points him out or you see him dealing), then that's fine. But going by some flimsy, common description alone is shitty.

Do you understand what I was talking about now?

[evil_erdlu]

Oh.. forgive me very much. I get it.. Of course, that's understandable. The ratting PC of course should have given a much more detailed description, then it would be acceptable.

[Yam]

Oh.. forgive me very much. I get it.. Of course, that's understandable. The ratting PC of course should have given a much more detailed description, then it would be acceptable.

No worries. I can see what you thought that I had implied in my first post. Totally understandable.

I agree that a PC in power should use every means necessary to stay in power. However, the player behind that PC can often assume some information based on their knowledge of the gameworld.

I believe this is where some leaders "out-snuff" the competition.

[Angela Christine]

One of the reasons people may be more likely to kill than deliver a simple beating, is that it is easier to kill someone than to beat them.  Beating people up is hard. 

A good beating typically involves punching and kicking, but unarmed combat is . . . odd.  I once had a newbie (secret) magicker recruited into a combat position.  Naturally she dreaded sparring, because she was really, really bad at regular combat.   Oddly enough, she could hold her own in unarmed combat drills.  She wasn't beating down the Warriors, but she wasn't losing nearly as badly as when weapons were involved.  The results of a punching fight seem a little unpredictable to me.  Another problem is that the person you are beating may decide to draw a weapon, ruining your perfectly good beating.

You could use weapons, but then it is harder to convince the other PC that this is just a beating and not a killing.  If the other player thinks that his PC's life is in danger, he may freak out.  Spam flee, try to kill you before you kill him, try to go out in a "blaze of glory" by insulting you and spitting on your shoes, or other unfortunate behavior.  What can you do?  You can't go OOC to tell the other player that your PC intends to rough him up but not kill him, play along plz.

Now in a MUSH or other consensual/cooperative role playing environment you would just emote out the beating, rather than relying on code.  You don't get the temporary HP loss of coded combat that way, but that is ok.  The problem with this is that since we don't do much of that sort of thing here, most of us aren't very good at it.  We just don't get much practice.  Sometimes you'll see people do a dance with several emotes before they can do something simple like shake hands or hand over a bag, because to simply "emote shakes hands with %man hand" could be power emoting, because what if that guy didn't want to shake your hand?     It is very hard to deliver an emote beat-down without being in danger of power emoting.  And the other guy can still be a jerk and pull out coded actions like fleeing or attacking.

Your best bet might be to have your buddy subdue the guy, then use emotes for the beating.  If you use subdue you have to settle for an emoted beating, because it is really easy to accidentally kill someone who is subdued.  The advantage is that emote-beating a subdued guy probably counts as torture, so you have to go OOC for torture consent, which gives you a legitimate way to OOC your intentions to the other player, and hope he chooses to play along.   

[Yam]

Whenever I do an involved beating, I usually OOC for consent. And then I do the beating in emotes.

That is, if their immobilized in some way and my character has the numbers to back him up should they fight back. If it's one on one and the beatee is still conscious, the code should decide what goes on.

[Dusky]

It's not always this way, of course. I think you guys are hearing only the bad cases. 

I know of a particular PC that has mugged several and messed up several - no one died.  The victims were willing to RP things out, didn't go bat-shit, and so were the criminals.

So while there are great reasons to kill people in the rinth even if it's just "I stabbed a man in the Mantis, just to watch him die," (apologies to Johnny Cash) it doesn't always go down like that.

[Sokotra]

Oh.. forgive me very much. I get it.. Of course, that's understandable. The ratting PC of course should have given a much more detailed description, then it would be acceptable.

That's not necessarily the problem.   The point is that you can allow yourself, especially if you are a badass, not to "win" and take the OOC/code information of knowing that you can find and kill this person with no problem.  You might just as easily be able to allow your character to think that the person died, even though they are just laying there unconscious or maybe allow your PC to miss his mark once in a while or accidentally go after some VNPC that looks like your target.  Or, heck, you could even have your PC realize that it isn't worth the trouble, effort, risk, waste of water(sweat) going after some guy that will probably die on his own in a few months anyway or will probably offer you a small cut of his profits or any number of things that could happen rather than just snuffing out the PC with no chance of future RP or possibilities, whether they might pose some minor challenge or not.

The point is not whether or not it is realistic to kill someone that poses a threat in a harsh world.  The point is that you are roleplaying and you can just as easily roleplay other things happening rather than just trying to "win" everything and make the little guy die with no chance of even struggling against the odds.  There's many possibilities while still remaining realistic and staying IC.

[evil_erdlu]

Oh.. forgive me very much. I get it.. Of course, that's understandable. The ratting PC of course should have given a much more detailed description, then it would be acceptable.

That's not necessarily the problem.   The point is that you can allow yourself, especially if you are a badass, not to "win" and take the OOC/code information of knowing that you can find and kill this person with no problem.  You might just as easily be able to allow your character to think that the person died, even though they are just laying there unconscious or maybe allow your PC to miss his mark once in a while or accidentally go after some VNPC that looks like your target.  Or, heck, you could even have your PC realize that it isn't worth the trouble, effort, risk, waste of water(sweat) going after some guy that will probably die on his own in a few months anyway or will probably offer you a small cut of his profits or any number of things that could happen rather than just snuffing out the PC with no chance of future RP or possibilities, whether they might pose some minor challenge or not.

The point is not whether or not it is realistic to kill someone that poses a threat in a harsh world.  The point is that you are roleplaying and you can just as easily roleplay other things happening rather than just trying to "win" everything and make the little guy die with no chance of even struggling against the odds.  There's many possibilities while still remaining realistic and staying IC.

Yes, but they don't need to. They shouldn't feel forced to. Especially, there shouldn't be a GDB post about this. If they feel generous, great. If they don't, they have all the right to kill such a character who didn't take the environment around them into account and tried messing with much higher powers openly. I'd like to repeat again, if there's a gang going on somewhere about something, anything illegal anywhere, you can't simply go there and start your own business. You either remain hidden, submit to the powerful or be so powerful that the powers that be can't mess with you. If you can do neither of these, it's not the other player's responsibility to grant your character's survival.

Armageddon's motto is: "Murder. Corruption. Betrayal." not "Second chances.  Multi-line emotes.  Conflict resolution."

2. Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even
    free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if
    you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean
    only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at
    the end of their careers.

3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
    mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
    killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.  The sole
    exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
    both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.

4. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
    your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
    See point 2 above.

What I'm disturbed about isn't particularly the topic, but the topic's being in the GDB. We, fellow players, have no right to force our wishes into other players RP. We, fellow players have no right to declare others guilty for some behaviour (take it to the staff, they're volunteering to maintain the game). Witch hunts are what disturb me and I guess I'm done with this thread - repeating myself over and over.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's where you're wrong. I have every right to say you roleplay like a tard.

If your roleplay(or lack of it) is generally making the game less fun for a substantial amount of people, wouldn't it be simply selfish for you to continue playing the way you are? Obviously there is an issue here, and all you are offering for help is "Quit crying noobs, zalanthas is harsh!."

That kind of attitude can really frustrate newbies who have been having a hard time with the game, simply because players wont take the time to make the game world fun for them.

But no, you just go on backstabbing every character you suspect might cause you trouble in the future. Because trouble never leads to fun roleplay, and players -love- getting insta ganked by players who are obviously better.



I believe powerful characters, and characters in leadership positions have a responsibility to make the game fun for others as much as it is for themselves. They shouldn't sacrifice there own fun, by any means, but they should certainly take into account that this is an interactive roleplaying game, that we all partake in for the sake of fun.

[evil_erdlu]

GDB posts like this, THIS, frustrate newbies and make them not want to play.

If you have issues with folks playing not to the soul of the game, REPORT THEM. If you feel you find yourself forced to ask for second changes, you're doing something wrong. As mentioned in 'help armageddon' - one of the first helpfiles I read, I'm a newbie myself.

If you can't handle the harsh atmosphere of 'rinth, go play a kadian merchant!

Labyrinth is supposed to be a lawless zone where gangs rule. If you want to do your thing and not face repercussions from gangs, you yourself are trying to bend the reality. Think of trying to sell guns in a back alley of a third-world country and getting caught red-handed. You die. Simple. Think of mafia, refusing to pay them. You die. Think of foulmouthing the local gang-leader. You die.

I'm repeating one last time, this is a wish from a newbie. I came to this MUD, reading and hearing a lot of false advertisement. Staff favouring folks, magickers fireballing commoners around, uberwarriors PKing anything that moves, yada yada..

I ignored them, experienced the MUD and found out that it's simply [flaming]people's whining when things don't turn out their way IG[/flaming]. Stop advertising your own MUD badly in GDB. Report to the staff or SHUT UP!

If you want to make a guide "How to RP in 'rinth?"/"How to play a magicker and remain invisible to common populace?"/"The right way to play a hunter" etc. and give clues to folks how to properly RP and be an example, I'll bow before you and my goddamn mouth won't open even once, maybe only for grovelling. BUT IF YOU WHINE, I'LL BE AGAINST IT. IT'S NOT LIKE THAT. I PLAYED IN THE SAME AREA, THE SAME GAME AND I KNOW IT'S NOT LIKE THAT.

Edited to add: Zalanthas is harsh, n00b!

[Dalmeth]

It's just to say - the rinth is fun because it's lawless and free. Let me have some damned freedom! Just a little. Please?

Just a note :  typically, lawless and free do not go well together.

[Tisiphone]

It's just to say - the rinth is fun because it's lawless and free. Let me have some damned freedom! Just a little. Please?

Just a note :  typically, lawless and free do not go well together.

Oh, you silly Platonist, you.

[Dalmeth]

Oh, you silly Platonist, you.

When people confuse lawless with free, they usually refer to a form of oligarchy, or just a lack of central authority.  Influential groups form a code of conduct that restricts competition in specific areas.  A form of law still technically exists, it's just more fluid.

[staggerlee]

That's where you're wrong. I have every right to say you roleplay like a tard.

If your roleplay(or lack of it) is generally making the game less fun for a substantial amount of people, wouldn't it be simply selfish for you to continue playing the way you are? Obviously there is an issue here, and all you are offering for help is "Quit crying noobs, zalanthas is harsh!."

Actually the GDB is not the place to take complaints about the roleplaying of others.  If you're concerned about something you see in game, file a player complaint or send an email to the staff so that they can properly look into it.

[Yam]

I think it is pretty clear that this thread is not a complaint directed at any specific person or group of people and is merely a discussion.

[spicemustflow]

Actually the GDB is not the place to take complaints about the roleplaying of others.  If you're concerned about something you see in game, file a player complaint or send an email to the staff so that they can properly look into it.

By that logic, the roleplaying discussion should be closed. We're not saying this player is a cunt, but discussing the new trends amongst the playerbase.

[Yam]

Actually the GDB is not the place to take complaints about the roleplaying of others.  If you're concerned about something you see in game, file a player complaint or send an email to the staff so that they can properly look into it.

By that logic, the roleplaying discussion should be closed. We're not saying this player is a cunt, but discussing the new trends amongst the playerbase.

It's not good to escalate tensions. Having said that, this isn't really a new trend. It's a pretty stable part of the game and it has always been a bone of contention. Threads are often closed on the subject because it can devolve into a flame fest if the involved parties are not respectful and pleasant in their, ah, discussion.

[staggerlee]

Actually the GDB is not the place to take complaints about the roleplaying of others.  If you're concerned about something you see in game, file a player complaint or send an email to the staff so that they can properly look into it.

By that logic, the roleplaying discussion should be closed. We're not saying this player is a cunt, but discussing the new trends amongst the playerbase.

It's not good to escalate tensions. Having said that, this isn't really a new trend. It's a pretty stable part of the game and it has always been a bone of contention. Threads are often closed on the subject because it can devolve into a flame fest if the involved parties are not respectful and pleasant in their, ah, discussion.

The problem with discussions of this sort is that they either turn into massive displays of FUD or are based entirely on observational evidence, which necessarily refers to individual experiences and tend to lack full information or perspective.

If there's general concern about the ability of player leaders in the game I'd suggest that a more constructive approach might be a thread about how to play a successful leadership role and make it fun for yourself, your underlings and your enemies.