Sexism and Whoring in Zalanthas

[Taven]

There is no sexism in Zalanthas.  Woman and men both exist in the same harsh conditions and both are equally capable. They aren't discriminated against for gender; or that's how it works in theory. There have been a few threads on sexism in Zalanthas, but to my knowledge, this particular spin hasn't been brought up. We've talked about how all the ruling heads are men (Tek, Utep, Sandlord, etc.) and how that may affect the world of Zalanthas. The point I wanted to bring up, however, I think is far more mundane and close to home.

I think there is some sexism in Zalanthas, and rather then it being IC, it's derived from our world, as players. We bring ideas from our world, and apply them to our PCs thinking that it's IC. Everyone has seen this at least once; the newbie PC who can't seem to get a grip that no, this isn't a democracy, and yes, the Templars, Chosen Lady/Lords or other ruling powers can kill you on whim, if they desire (which is somewhat curbed for playing purposes, but torture works too, or fines). Those players either leave, or learn how things work after a few PCs and understand. However, I think that the sexism seen in PCs isn't necessarily recognized as un-zalanthian (as I believe it to be, and you may disagree) and remains unchanging.

I have played both male and female PCs. If a male PC hits on a female, it is accepted, and while the male maybe considered crude, it is not considered out of the ordinary. If a female PC does the same, usually in a less direct and obvious manner, she is either declared a whore, or a slut. There is no marriage in Zalanthas. There are relationships with multiply parents in Zalanthas. Why, then, can a male PC do as he wishes while a female PC is restrained by being viewed as a "slut" or "whore"? I believe the answer is pure as simple: the sexism we as players bring into the game.

Another good example of this is who is considered a whore. If there is a PC female written up to be attractive, she is automatically assumed to be some sort of whore. This is partially because statistical speaking, there are vastly more female PC whores then males. However, I still have yet to see a well-written man PC get the same amount of fuss about it, and whore references as a female PC. Not only that, but isn't calling someone a whore to be degrading also from our OOC perspective, rather then an IC perspective? There are, of course, always the lesser whores. However, if you're a good-looking woman (or man) and can not only have men interested in you, but pay you for the time, wouldn't that be re guarded as extremely impressive? Even if whoring is considered a low, declaratory profession, it should still be just as likely that a good-looking man would be likely to be degraded as a whore as a good-looking woman.

I have never seen a man degraded by being called a whore, a slut, or otherwise insulting his choice of per suits. As I've said, I think this is largely a result of us, as players, bringing it into the game. I know I'm not blameless in it, I've made assumptions before, and had my PCs hold lower opinions of people because of it. However, I also think part of it maybe the game world itself. There is no sexism in Zalanthas, but I have never seen (that I recall) a male NPC whore. I could have missed it, but I have seen numerous female PC whores in Tuluk, Allanak, and the Rinth. I think that those things significantly influence the player perceptions of things as well, and doesn't seem to fit with the Zalanthian concept of no sexism.

What are your thoughts?

[FelixVonValidus]

your beating a dead horse bro, everything that you've said, applies to real life, and if you wanna discuss the human condition in real life, talk to a psychology or sociology professor.

[staggerlee]

It's better than I expected it would be as far as the things you've listed.
I've seen a lot of very unconventional relationships played out in the game without the expected social stigma.
I love the very tough women in the game that sleep with whoever they please and are far too badass to take criticism for it, and the very tough gay men that do the same.  I was really excited when I joined the game and found prominent people behaving that way.

It's easy to become a victim in the game, and a lot of it is in how you as the player act.

Now I'm not arguing that there isn't some sexism going on, and I don't want to get into a diatriabe about gender.  But what you should remember is that the documentation and game world clearly state that there is not more social stigma or restriction placed on sexual activity in women than men.  It's all fair game, so if someone is trying to be a dick about it you do have the upper hand.  Use that to your advantage.

[Elgiva]

I believe there are NPC male whores. I recall a couple without much thinking. I also remember some uber-cool male PC whores from past. And to add to it, I know about some men who were called "whore" - and I recall one hilarious scene some year ago where male was called a whore, overheard it and immediatelly asked if the person who called him that would be willing to pay two smalls for his services. Indeed, the situation might be very different now - but I still don't think it's as serious as it sounds.

[Betaal]

This is a slight derail, but a good example of how these notions can creep into the game.

When I was building a portion of my settlement known as the Lower Market, I had a small number of fundamental shops that I wanted to be represented.  Armor-Clothing, Non-Armor-Clothing, Tailor, Weapons, Food, Water, and basic Supplies.  I only realized about halfway through the process that I was being influenced by Western culture gender roles when I was assigning the shop keepers to their respective shops.

I had envisioned females in the roles of the baker and the clothing shop, while choosing males for the weapons and armor shops.  After realizing what I had done, I then wrestled with the notion that if a shop had a 50/50 chance of being owned/operated by a male or female, should I make any attempt to dispel those stereotypes and purposefully choose females for roles that would typically be held by males based on these Western cultural views?

I ended up largely keeping the concepts that I'd already decided upon, half of which were female and half of which were male.  However, I am careful to consider these things in future development and ensure that my personal Earthly concepts surrounding gender roles don't necessarily creep into the game any more than they should as I design other roles within the settlement such as prostitutes, bouncers, servers, manual labor, guards and soldiers (including officers and positions of leadership), council members, heads of families, cooks, and so on.

While the topic of sexism and whether it belongs in Armageddon has been beaten to death, I definitely think it can be useful to remind people of specific instances where it's creeping into the game and they don't even realize they're doing it -- as it was for me.

[Spoon]

If the male character I'm playing is of a crude nature, I will have him hoot and holler at women if he's straight/bisexual. However, if someone does the same to a man he won't turn a blind eye. This is because this is the PC I'm role playing at the time, and I want then to be a dirty lecher!

The thing is I don't want my PC labeled as being played by someone who 'doesn't get it' in terms of the gender equality. Someone might see him being crude to a woman and think I, as a player, don't get it. Stir it up a little and react in a Zalanthian way if you think someone's being sexist, you might find out they're simply a bag of filth. Gender equality has nothing to do with being nice to anyone, it's about not expecting certain actions/reactions, prejudices and stereotypes.

If you do think someone isn't getting it, it's worth contacting the staff about. I don't want all our open minded players to leave because some people didn't bother reading the rules.

[Vessol]

On a similar vein I suppose, what has irked me in the game is hearing the word 'faggot' IG when describing a homosexual. I didn't say anything IG, maybe I should have, seeing as the word 'faggot' comes from a Earth concept that the wood they used to burn homosexuals at the stake they called faggots, thus the word is a reference to Earthly things.

[Spoon]

The main problem with that I see is that it's derogatory towards homosexuals. I'd be tempted to give that player a big OOC slap around the face, but it's be best to use the player complaint tool, as you'll likely just get a juvenile OOC message back.

[staggerlee]

Yeah I haven't noticed much of that, but the player complaint tool is ideal for any kind of circumstance in which you feel another player is doing something drastically against the documentation like that.

Then if there is a justifiable ic reason, the staff and player in question will know, and if there is not they can deal with that as well.  There's no harm in sending out a false alarm, and if it's a problem it's the best, least disruptive way to deal with it.

[Tallulah]

Whoring is a legitimate profession on Zalanthas.  Calling someone a whore shouldn't be an insult.

[musashi]

Agreed. I've known PCs in the game who lamented at great length on their love of whores and spice 

Some of those lamenting were women.

[Teal]

Ahem. Note to self: Do not press "reply" when reading a thread and not replying. >.>

Anywhos.

I believe there are NPC male whores. I recall a couple without much thinking. I also remember some uber-cool male PC whores from past. And to add to it, I know about some men who were called "whore" - and I recall one hilarious scene some year ago where male was called a whore, overheard it and immediatelly asked if the person who called him that would be willing to pay two smalls for his services. Indeed, the situation might be very different now - but I still don't think it's as serious as it sounds.

This is awesome. I met a really funny male PC whore. I think they're BETTER then those silly women whores. Bwahaha. Reverse sexism. ;P

[deconstruct99]

Sexism is always going to continue in the game as long as 80% of the female population continue to act like "girly girls" in their lifestyle and emotions.

[Agent_137]

Sexism is always going to continue in the game as long as 80% of the female population continue to act like "girly girls" in their lifestyle and emotions.

and 40% of the males who play armageddon continue to play girly girls.

[amish overlord]

Sexism is always going to continue in the game as long as 80% of the female population continue to act like "girly girls" in their lifestyle and emotions.

We need more big fat female byn sergeants that scratch themselves and fart(remember a char that did this) and mannized(opposite of womanized). If remember correctly.

Amish Overlord 

[Mood]

My male whores rock.

[Rhyden]

Some of the manliest, kick-ass characters I've seen have been females. Some of the girliest, pansy-ass characters I've seen have been males. I've seen girly girls and manly men, f-mes and tall, muscular types, but only in Armageddon can you see them all.

In other words, I've never seen bad sexism issues in Arm and would hope that our sexy, yet non-sexist characters demonstrate that general perspective well in the game as much as out of it.

[Sarah]

Sexism is always going to continue in the game as long as 80% of the female population continue to act like "girly girls" in their lifestyle and emotions.

True. But the majority of males act like "manly males" too (maybe not 80%, but I haven't measured).

We need more big fat female byn sergeants that scratch themselves and fart(remember a char that did this) and mannized(opposite of womanized). If remember correctly.

Amish Overlord 

Again, we need more males acting kind of prissy, too. It shouldn't be down to the way that females act... although I agree that it's more of a problem with female pcs.

The problem is that most females prefer playing female pcs and probably prefer to act feminine. Males probably prefer to play males who act masculine.

I've played male pcs on several occassions and noticed that as a male you aren't treated nearly as well. People obviously favour females (giving them an easier time/more free handouts, more job offers, etc).

I then wanted to experiment by playing a pc with the sdesc and main desc of what people would refer to as "f-me"... it was an uncomfortable experience. I've found that, often before she even spoke, that my pc was not been taken seriously, and was even called a whore (far from her personality or her actions) in a way that was obviously meant as an insult.... all this while in the company of male pcs with ripped muscles, broad shoulders, strong jawlines and overall rugged exteriors. She had a good personality.  Even though there are those ridiculously beautiful pcs (female AND male) out there with the f-me personality to go along with it, people should try to avoid judging in an ooc way... for all you know, that "f-me" could actually be a ruthless killer.


I think it's important to bring this topic up every so often because I don't think things are quite sinking in.

[Taven]

your beating a dead horse bro, everything that you've said, applies to real life, and if you wanna discuss the human condition in real life, talk to a psychology or sociology professor.

FelixVonValidus

Please, let it be a dead KANK if it must be a mount.

I'm not talking about sexism and whoring in real-life, so much as how that influences our game. I can talk until I'm blue in the face to a psychology or sociology professor but it won't affect Zalanthas. I think a large part of it is us, as players, taking another look at how we're playing.

the documentation and game world clearly state that there is not more social stigma or restriction placed on sexual activity in women than men.  It's all fair game, so if someone is trying to be a dick about it you do have the upper hand.  Use that to your advantage.

staggerlee

Stir it up a little and react in a Zalanthian way if you think someone's being sexist, you might find out they're simply a bag of filth. Gender equality has nothing to do with being nice to anyone, it's about not expecting certain actions/reactions, prejudices and stereotypes.

Spoon

I'm not saying that being a bag of filth isn't Zalanthian. I'm looking at the way we as players choose to portray that. For example, wouldn't it make more sense rather then to call someone a slut where there is no sexual stigma to say that they slept with a fucking point-eared skinny? Or worse, a filthy breed? Maybe they were Rinthi, or a Gemmer. There are all sorts of ways to be very crude without relying on what I consider insults that don't apply to Zalanthas.

This is a slight derail, but a good example of how these notions can creep into the game.

I had envisioned females in the roles of the baker and the clothing shop, while choosing males for the weapons and armor shops.  After realizing what I had done, I then wrestled with the notion that if a shop had a 50/50 chance of being owned/operated by a male or female, should I make any attempt to dispel those stereotypes and purposefully choose females for roles that would typically be held by males based on these Western cultural views?

Betaal

I actually think this is an excellent example of what I'm trying to get at. We don't always intentionally do it, but real-life perceptions can creep in without us always noticing.

I believe there are NPC male whores. I recall a couple without much thinking. I also remember some uber-cool male PC whores from past. And to add to it, I know about some men who were called "whore" - and I recall one hilarious scene some year ago where male was called a whore, overheard it and immediatelly asked if the person who called him that would be willing to pay two smalls for his services. Indeed, the situation might be very different now - but I still don't think it's as serious as it sounds.

Elgiva

This is awesome. I met a really funny male PC whore. I think they're BETTER then those silly women whores. Bwahaha. Reverse sexism. ;P

Teal

The whores I've met and had any significant interaction with were very well played. I may be making it sound like a bigger issue then it is, but I did feel that it needed to be brought up. I think that there are a lot of times when our OOC perceptions sneak in without us necessarily realizing it. Taking another look at how we play, how others play, and reflecting can help determine this, and help us fix anything that might have unknowingly snuck in.

Some of the manliest, kick-ass characters I've seen have been females. Some of the girliest, pansy-ass characters I've seen have been males. I've seen girly girls and manly men, f-mes and tall, muscular types, but only in Armageddon can you see them all.

In other words, I've never seen bad sexism issues in Arm and would hope that our sexy, yet non-sexist characters demonstrate that general perspective well in the game as much as out of it.

Rhyden

I've also seen a lot of diversity in characters. I've seen the female bad-ass PC that nearly anyone, male or female, wouldn't mess with lightly. I've also seen the 'pansy-ass' male PCs that don't necessarily appear that way at first, but are. I'm not arguing that Zalanthas doesn't have good diversity, or a wide-variety of character 'types'. I still think that there are instances where if you're playing a female PC you get hassled in ways you wouldn't if you played a male. Not in "zalanthian ways" either. I have no problem, as previously stated, with grungy, dirt-bag PCs. They help flavor Zalanthas. I do think that many times these PCs rely on what we consider in our society to be stigma, rather then Zalanthian stigma.

I've played male pcs on several occassions and noticed that as a male you aren't treated nearly as well. People obviously favour females (giving them an easier time/more free handouts, more job offers, etc).

I then wanted to experiment by playing a pc with the sdesc and main desc of what people would refer to as "f-me"... it was an uncomfortable experience. I've found that, often before she even spoke, that my pc was not been taken seriously, and was even called a whore (far from her personality or her actions) in a way that was obviously meant as an insult.... all this while in the company of male pcs with ripped muscles, broad shoulders, strong jawlines and overall rugged exteriors. She had a good personality.  Even though there are those ridiculously beautiful pcs (female AND male) out there with the f-me personality to go along with it, people should try to avoid judging in an ooc way... for all you know, that "f-me" could actually be a ruthless killer.

I think it's important to bring this topic up every so often because I don't think things are quite sinking in.

I think that this covers the point that I'm trying to make fairly well.

[flurry]

On a similar vein I suppose, what has irked me in the game is hearing the word 'faggot' IG when describing a homosexual. I didn't say anything IG, maybe I should have, seeing as the word 'faggot' comes from a Earth concept that the wood they used to burn homosexuals at the stake they called faggots, thus the word is a reference to Earthly things.

I've seen this every now and then, too.  Most likely from new players who don't get it yet.

[Marauder Moe]

However, just because a male PC treats a female PC better than other male PCs doesn't mean always he's sexist in some way.  It could mean that he thinks by being nice it increases his chances of getting some.

What we need are more female characters fawning over men and giving them nice gifts (and men who don't take a hit on their ego when this happens).

[flurry]

Whoring is a legitimate profession on Zalanthas.  Calling someone a whore shouldn't be an insult.

It's a legal profession, but does that mean it's respected?

[Shoka Windrunner]

Whoring is a legitimate profession on Zalanthas.  Calling someone a whore shouldn't be an insult.

It's a legal profession, but does that mean it's respected?

Only if you want a discount.

[Marauder Moe]

Whoring is a legitimate profession on Zalanthas.  Calling someone a whore shouldn't be an insult.

It's a legal profession, but does that mean it's respected?

Like most professions, there are degrees of respectability.  Also, like most professions, there are other names for different degrees.

whore, prostitute, concubine
thug, mercenary, guard, soldier
lackey, assistant, aide, adviser

Calling someone a concubine would never be any more insulting than calling someone a soldier.  In fact, it could be a compliment.  Calling someone a whore who is clearly on a higher social level, though, might be insulting.  Just like calling someone of a higher social level a thug or lackey.

In short, it's not the sexual services profession that makes the term "whore" insulting, it's the implication of being low-class.

[musashi]

In short, it's not the sexual services profession that makes the term "whore" insulting, it's the implication of being low-class.

QFT

[RogueGunslinger]

whore, prostitute, concubine
thug, mercenary, guard, soldier
lackey, assistant, aide, adviser, concubine

[Barzalene]

I don't see the sort of events that the OP is pointing out. I can't recall hearing anyone called a slut or a whore, or anyone taking a great interest in who people sleep with at all.

I haven't noticed anyone saying eww whores.

[X-D]

I have...and quite recently.

[Barzalene]

Is it pervasive or just one or two misguided people?

[X-D]

Even one or two can end up being pervasive, Though It was more then one or two and others got into it as well.

[Barzalene]

That sucks. But it seems to be a new trend, doesn't it?

[X-D]

New? No. Like everything else in the game it comes and goes in cycles.  The same as other threads have mentioned with homosexuality IG and mages, what have you.  As numbers of new players goes up so does the amount of OOC viewpoints get brought into game. Threads like this get started, of which there have likley been hundreds over the years but it brings it back to light again. When the number of new players slows down then the new players become old players and you will not see it as often till the next cycle of incoming new players.

One of the best things to be done about it has been, start a thread to talk about it. The next thing is for people to set the proper example IG.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

One of the things that 'no standards' implies is that it is not wrong to think any one way. Some characters would have a reason to not like homosexuals, or prostitutes, or men, or girls, or whatever. While most characters should not give a rat's ass about such things, there will be reasons for some characters to give a rat's ass.

Make sure that your dislike is directed towards a player bringing such a viewpoint into the game, as opposed to that player happening to have a character who was butt-tickled at age 4 by a male mul.

[Taven]

Like most professions, there are degrees of respectability.  Also, like most professions, there are other names for different degrees.

whore, prostitute, concubine
thug, mercenary, guard, soldier
lackey, assistant, aide, adviser

Calling someone a concubine would never be any more insulting than calling someone a soldier.  In fact, it could be a compliment.  Calling someone a whore who is clearly on a higher social level, though, might be insulting.  Just like calling someone of a higher social level a thug or lackey.

In short, it's not the sexual services profession that makes the term "whore" insulting, it's the implication of being low-class.

Marauder Moe

I actually found this comment very thought-provoking, and correct to a large extent. However, it doesn't cross over well if, again, only female PCs are called whores, and they're called this if they aren't. Whore is far more commonly used to degrade then "thug" or "lackey" is. There are incredibly insulting ways to talk to people all without ever calling a person a whore. For example, regardless of profession, it would certainly be an insult to imply that they could only afford a dirty (add 'Rinthi' if in Allanak) half-breed whore crawling with lice and flees. That implies low-class very well, and it's not calling a female PC a whore because they're female. If they are clearly a whore, or well-known for it, it could be applicable. I still think that 'whore' as name-calling is really only used specifically in regards to PCs of the female gender.

Make sure that your dislike is directed towards a player bringing such a viewpoint into the game, as opposed to that player happening to have a character who was butt-tickled at age 4 by a male mul.

We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

[RogueGunslinger]

We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't give a shit if it's IC for their character to act against the documentation. They need to stop it. It's ruining the game.


That's not directed at you Taven.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, I didn't mean to say that I believe every use of the word "whore" as an insult was done correctly.  I'm just saying that sometimes it does make sense as one.  People should absolutely try to be aware of how they use it.

One of the things that 'no standards' implies is that it is not wrong to think any one way. Some characters would have a reason to not like homosexuals, or prostitutes, or men, or girls, or whatever. While most characters should not give a rat's ass about such things, there will be reasons for some characters to give a rat's ass.

We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

Considering that the no-homophobia rule is actually an OOC mandate rather than just an IC guideline, I would say that playing a character with "justified" homophobia is probably not an appropriate thing to do.  You character doesn't have to like the idea of sleeping with people of the same sex, but they really shouldn't translate that into a reason to discriminate against those who do.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

• Assuming that you can not have a character who displays homophobia for any reason, is it also accurate to say that you can not have a character who exhibits hetrophobia as well?
• Assuming that we shouldn't use the word whore/slut/cunt/etc to commonly degrade women, are we also saying that we can not use these words to commonly downgrade males?

If the answer to both of these questions are yes, then fine. I have nothing more to say. If the answer to both of these questions is not yes, then I think we are displaying a bias to one side or the other, no matter how you slice the cake.

[Shoka Windrunner]

• Assuming that you can not have a character who displays homophobia for any reason, is it also accurate to say that you can not have a character who exhibits hetrophobia as well?
• Assuming that we shouldn't use the word whore to commonly degrade women, are we also saying that we can not use the word to commonly downgrade males?

If the answer to both of these questions are yes, then fine. I have nothing more to say. If the answer to both of these questions is not yes, then I think we are displaying a bias to one side or the other, no matter who you slice the cake.

To the first one that is a definite 'Yes.'

To the second question.  I think like it's been said, it depends on who your talking to whether it would even be an insult.  Call a noble (male or female) a whore and it's an insult.  Call Joe Amos a whore.  It's a new idea for Amos to make money and not even an insult at all.  It'd be like in RL calling someone a chef.  Or a cook.  Or a librarian.

Cause whores are cool and all in Zalanthas. 

[Barzalene]

Like most professions, there are degrees of respectability.  Also, like most professions, there are other names for different degrees.

whore, prostitute, concubine
thug, mercenary, guard, soldier
lackey, assistant, aide, adviser

Calling someone a concubine would never be any more insulting than calling someone a soldier.  In fact, it could be a compliment.  Calling someone a whore who is clearly on a higher social level, though, might be insulting.  Just like calling someone of a higher social level a thug or lackey.

In short, it's not the sexual services profession that makes the term "whore" insulting, it's the implication of being low-class.

Marauder Moe

I actually found this comment very thought-provoking, and correct to a large extent. However, it doesn't cross over well if, again, only female PCs are called whores, and they're called this if they aren't. Whore is far more commonly used to degrade then "thug" or "lackey" is. There are incredibly insulting ways to talk to people all without ever calling a person a whore. For example, regardless of profession, it would certainly be an insult to imply that they could only afford a dirty (add 'Rinthi' if in Allanak) half-breed whore crawling with lice and flees. That implies low-class very well, and it's not calling a female PC a whore because they're female. If they are clearly a whore, or well-known for it, it could be applicable. I still think that 'whore' as name-calling is really only used specifically in regards to PCs of the female gender.


We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

I don't know that I completely agree that a lack of sexual stigma based on promiscuity would translate into whoring being respectable. I don't know that I agree that concubines are respected (though I'm sure they are envied.) This has nothing to do with gender. I think, that the idea of selling intimacy is inherently debasing. However, that's an opinion, and it's subjective. If the objective point of view is that it is not inherently degrading then I have, and will honor my obligation to rp that there's nothing particularly wrong with it.

Now, that doesn't mean that my pc's would rather starve than sell their bodies. That to me seem very much counter to the survival outlook that seems most zalanthan. And my pc's would not look down on a pc because they were prostitutes. They wouldn't shun them, or feel that the pc was defined by the whoring. But they might, to an extent pity them. It's hard to think of it as a good job.

And tangentially, my pc might respect a hard working whore more than a concubine, for the same reasons I might respect a waitress more than a super model.

[X-D]

I think, that the idea of selling intimacy is inherently debasing

Only replying to that one line. Because I wonder how it can be any more debasing then any other job. Selling your body to be possibly hacked to pieces while you guard rich merchant #12 for a few hundred coins is less debasing? Huh?

As my PCs tend to see it, a successful whore has one hell of a nice job. Safe (comparably speaking) Easy, with plenty of perks

[Vox]

Until they code in sexually transmitted diseases...

[Khorm]

I think, that the idea of selling intimacy is inherently debasing

Only replying to that one line. Because I wonder how it can be any more debasing then any other job. Selling your body to be possibly hacked to pieces while you guard rich merchant #12 for a few hundred coins is less debasing? Huh?

As my PCs tend to see it, a successful whore has one hell of a nice job. Safe (comparably speaking) Easy, with plenty of perks

I'm not sure I would consider the selling of intimacy debasing on a societal level. As I've come to understand sexuality and sex in general on Zalanthas... it seems to be a pretty widely accepted phenomena. I wouldn't expect a "whore" to receive the same treatment that one would in say.. the united states.

Now, whether or not your character treats sex as physically and/or emotionally intimate is another thing entirely, and it seems as though the definition of debasing could certainly change from person to person. If my character were to share the same thoughts that I have on the topic, sure.. selling that sort of emotional intimacy would be debasing. But hell, life is cheap on Zalanthas and I'd expect that sex holds an even lesser value.

[touringCompl3t3]

Tavern,

I completely agree.  That was the reason I recommended adding gender stereotypes back to arm 2.0.  My belief was that most players lacked the maturity to treat men and women the same.  I felt that people who wanted to play tough, macho characters could play men and that players who wanted to play gentle, submissive characters could play women, regardless of their real life gender.

Obviously, this is a sensitive issue though and I don't think things are going to change in the near future.  The issues are far too complicated for things to get sorted out on a discussion board. 

I feel your pain, though.

[Barzalene]

We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

You make a very good point. And I think it's something I will personally have to take a look at and call myself on my belief that whoring is a job of last resort.

[Dalmeth]

Until they code in sexually transmitted diseases...

This is a large part of the reason why whores are generally looked down upon.  They are generally viewed as dirty.  Instances where whores are not looked down upon generally are when they get organized and start setting standards in their customers as well their workers.

So, you want whores to be respectable?  Start a professional whorehouse in the next game.

[naatok]

On Sexual roles:
Since when is roleplaying a 'girlie-girl' female character a poor choice of character concept for ArmageddonMud?
Because the world is harsh?  With that line of reasoning one would expect that humanoid and other animal females would not have the instinct to nurture their young.

So-called feminine behavior on Terra is a combination of sociological factors and genetic predisposition.  On Earth there are males and females of several species of animals we've studied who are predisposed to some of the so-called feminine behavioral model.  Such behavior has been observed in animals in captivity since the Victorian era, and more species have been added to the list over the past twenty years of study.  This behavior includes homosexual roles in relationship (this has been observed in MANY species for both sexes, especially in captivity.  Adult male penguins have been observed to pair bond, build nests together, copulate and otherwise engage in all the activites of adult male-female penguin pair bondings.  The same has been observed in this and other species of female-female pair bonding.

Effete, docile, demure, nurturing behavior in both sexes is NOT unusual in any sense of rarety in most social mammals on Earth.  Considering the wide rage of ecological conditions for the various species observed to have such behavior, I cannot assume this behavior would be extinct in a so-called 'harsh' environment such as most of Zalanthas is.  There are obviously survival advantages to this behavioral model.  Judging from scientific study there are probably just as many advantages to this behavior, if not more, than aggressive, violent, dominant behavior in social animals.

From what I've observed in roleplay on Arm, sexism and stereotyping of sexual roles has been, for the most part, perpetuated by a minority of characters.  I've seen very docile, effete, nurturing, and submissive male and female characters who, true to life, will turn on a dime (or 'sid piece if you prefer) and become very efficient violent defenders and killers.  I've also observed both aggressive and submissive types exhibit submissive behavior when their lives are threatened by force they are unable to defend against through violent means.  Which is also quite natural.

I've been playing and observing roleplayed behavior in this game for many years now and have absolutely no problem with characters roleplayed to be non-aggressive for the most part.  The idea that harsh environmental conditions would predispose extinction of so-called 'feminine' behavior is ludicrous.  It is, in itself an ignorant sexual stereotype.

On Whoring:
I've NEVER understood the generalized behavior in Zalanthas of viewing sexual prostitution in a negative context.  As others have pointed out, yes, of course SOME segments of the population would find being called a prostitue or whore insulting.  But for the vast majority of people, I seriously doubt that would be the case.

In cultures with unrestricted or very lightly restricted sexual mores, prostitutes have historically been respected, and in some cultures even venerated.  It is in cultures where the genders are less equal in socially perceived 'value' systems where we find prostitution, and sexual activity outside culturally established moral 'guidelines' in general to be taboo or viewed with negative connotations.

[Jingo]

I was going to point out the veneration of temple p in past cultures but Naatok beat me to it.

Also, in past cultures it was perfectly acceptable for a wealthy man to take on mistresses (concubines) and support them materially.

One the things that has continually bothered me about the game is that sexual favors are a legitimate way of achieving elevated status accross the board. Don't get me wrong here, I don't think it shouldn't happen in Zalanthas, just that it shouldn't be the ideal.

If a colleague recieves elevated status for sexing the boss, does that mean my character would slap them on the back with a congratulation? Unlikely, especially if my character has their eyes on a similar position and is unwilling go to those extents.

Also, if I have a young character that is picked as a paramour by a wealthier individual, does that only mean they should only feel joy now that their life is "set"? Or does that mean that they might suffer shame and guild despite the material benefits? I think it's perfectly reasononable to play a character at one end or between both possibilites.

[flurry]

On Sexual roles:
Since when is roleplaying a 'girlie-girl' female character a poor choice of character concept for ArmageddonMud?
Because the world is harsh?  With that line of reasoning one would expect that humanoid and other animal females would not have the instinct to nurture their young.

I agree with this; I don't think feminine characters are any more out of place in Zalanthas than masculine characters.

[mansa]

This is a slight derail, but a good example of how these notions can creep into the game.

When I was building a portion of my settlement known as the Lower Market, I had a small number of fundamental shops that I wanted to be represented.  Armor-Clothing, Non-Armor-Clothing, Tailor, Weapons, Food, Water, and basic Supplies.  I only realized about halfway through the process that I was being influenced by Western culture gender roles when I was assigning the shop keepers to their respective shops.

I had envisioned females in the roles of the baker and the clothing shop, while choosing males for the weapons and armor shops.  After realizing what I had done, I then wrestled with the notion that if a shop had a 50/50 chance of being owned/operated by a male or female, should I make any attempt to dispel those stereotypes and purposefully choose females for roles that would typically be held by males based on these Western cultural views?

I ended up largely keeping the concepts that I'd already decided upon, half of which were female and half of which were male.  However, I am careful to consider these things in future development and ensure that my personal Earthly concepts surrounding gender roles don't necessarily creep into the game any more than they should as I design other roles within the settlement such as prostitutes, bouncers, servers, manual labor, guards and soldiers (including officers and positions of leadership), council members, heads of families, cooks, and so on.

While the topic of sexism and whether it belongs in Armageddon has been beaten to death, I definitely think it can be useful to remind people of specific instances where it's creeping into the game and they don't even realize they're doing it -- as it was for me.

Hey Beeeetal,

I would prefer it if there was a bigger ratio of gender roles being opposite of western culture roles as represented by NPCs and vNPCs in the game.  Something closer to 70/30 instead of 50/50.

Why?

Because all players are "influenced" by North American culture, and would combat the pre-set notion of 50/50 as represented by the NPCs, which would push it over towards a "more likely North American" fantasy setting.  If there was more female "armourers" and more male "clothiers", more female "weapon crafters" and more male "orphanage overseers".

The NPCs create some of the culture of the city, and I'd like each and every one exaggerate the wonderful culture of Zalanthas, and diminish the typical western fantasy setting. 

I'd like all the builders and players who submit objects, npcs, and rooms, to take this in mind.  We're trying to craft a world that is different than the typical western fantasy setting, and that it's BETTER than the typical western fantasy setting!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That just creates new gender roles, specific to Armageddon. 50/50 is just fine for enforcing the concept of no gender roles.

[mansa]

That just creates new gender roles, specific to Armageddon. 50/50 is just fine for enforcing the concept of no gender roles.

I disagree with that idea.  I believe players will come into the game with some preconceived notion of sexism and players need to be beaten in the head over and over again until they understand that the game is a different culture than North America.  Over-examples and exaggerations will help combat the standard fantasy setting.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I've certainly asked more than one pretty character - male OR female - if they're a whore, if my character is the type interested in buying sex.

Was I doing this to be insulting? 

No.  Not at all.  It follows logically that if you're attractive with unblemished skin and well-cared-for hair, you're not doing a lot of hard physical labor.  It also follows that if you're attractive and clean and well-kept, my character might want to have sex with yours.  If my character's the kind that doesn't mind paying for sex, well, he might see what kind of investment it would take to try a piece of what your character may or may not be offering.

What bugs me is when people act insulted about it. 

My character spots Attractive F-Me-Type Character (male or female). 
Me: 'Do you whore?' 
AFMTC: 'Are you calling me a whore?!' 
Me: 'Uh... no.  I was asking you how much.  If you don't sell.. that's ok too.  But I've got a lot of money so if you're ever interested... '
AFMTC: 'I'd never do that!' 
AFMTC storms off in a huff and/or threatens to beat my character up.

To me, that kind of reaction perpetrates the stereotypical-type situation a lot more than my character asking an attractive character if they sell sex.

[Tisiphone]

Most of my characters are whores-of-opportunity. I believe this was more than a year ago, but I remember playing a dwarven female who got a few extra 'sids because she had huge knockers.

[touringCompl3t3]

I've certainly asked more than one pretty character - male OR female - if they're a whore, if my character is the type interested in buying sex.

Was I doing this to be insulting? 

No.  Not at all.  It follows logically that if you're attractive with unblemished skin and well-cared-for hair, you're not doing a lot of hard physical labor.  It also follows that if you're attractive and clean and well-kept, my character might want to have sex with yours.  If my character's the kind that doesn't mind paying for sex, well, he might see what kind of investment it would take to try a piece of what your character may or may not be offering.

What bugs me is when people act insulted about it. 

My character spots Attractive F-Me-Type Character (male or female). 
Me: 'Do you whore?' 
AFMTC: 'Are you calling me a whore?!' 
Me: 'Uh... no.  I was asking you how much.  If you don't sell.. that's ok too.  But I've got a lot of money so if you're ever interested... '
AFMTC: 'I'd never do that!' 
AFMTC storms off in a huff and/or threatens to beat my character up.

To me, that kind of reaction perpetrates the stereotypical-type situation a lot more than my character asking an attractive character if they sell sex.

Yeah, I agree.  But I think this is related to an idea that your average player is uncomfortable with sex.  Personally, I don't think this is a fixable problem -- we can't replace all of the (imperfect human) players who are uncomfortable with sex with a set of (less imperfect) players who are more comfortable with sex.

It's a shame, but it's really a maturity issue.  Personally, I've gotten used to it and my response is to avoid sexual role play and try to leave sex out of the game.

Then again, if you are able to have fun with your character's sexuality, my hat is off to you. 

[Ourla]

But I think this is related to an idea that your average player is uncomfortable with sex.

This is not my impression. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah, I agree.  But I think this is related to an idea that your average player is uncomfortable with sex.

Are you kidding me? That is certainly not the issue. It's simply a carryover from real-life people thinking that being a whore is degrading. Which if you're a woman, it usually is.

[Lizzie]

I think it's a matter of semantics. The word "prostitute" has an almost neutral (almost) connotation attached to it. The word "whore" is -intended- to be used as a slur. Now, maybe that isn't the original function of the word, I won't bother looking up its history. But it is certainly how it is now. When "polite company" is talking about women selling their bodies, they refer to those women as prostitutes. Or call girls. Or paid escorts (nudge nudge wink wink). When polite company wants to express disgust, or a sense of superiority, or otherwise give insult to those prostitutes, they will call them whores. They'll call them that, while sneering, or narrowing their eyes, or some other physical facial expression showing their disgust or sense of superiority or intention to insult.

In Zalanthas, a *concubine* is considered a worthy profession, and in fact is higher "ranking" than other commoners. Becoming a noble's concubine, would be considered an enormous boon to anyone lucky enough to show talent. But then, a concubine isn't someone who sells her sexual body to whoever has the sids to pay for it.

Just like the Legion, or the Militia, might look down on an independent mercenary as inferior, a concubine might look down on an independent sex-seller as inferior. Or a Salarr armorsmith looks down on some guy who makes mek-hide cuirasses all day.

A "whore" IS lower-class, and calling someone a whore SHOULD be considered an insult. A whore would be the independent, who might never be worthy of being one of the well-trained, clean, and talented Kuraci prostitutes, and is likely to never be fit to step in the shadow of a noble's concubine.

It's still a perfectly acceptable profession - but it is the profession of the lowest commoners - the ones who can't do any better, who can't afford to be picky.

That's how I see the use of the word.

[musashi]

That's about how I envision it too so ... you know, +1 to what Lizzie said.

[RogueGunslinger]

The thing is, many people say whore with out it being an insult. So if you wan't your character to take it that way, then go ahead. But my characters won't. It's simply a matter of how you want to react in any given situation, and what your characters thoughts on the word is, not your own.

[touringCompl3t3]

Hey, you guys have good points.

Personally, I don't think the word "whore" should be allowed in game......not from the standpoint that the staff should ban it but it really has no place in the zalanthan vocabulary. 

If I play a prostitute, I'm going to call myself a "pleasure servant".  It conjures a much more friendly picture.

I think if someone comes up to me and introduces themselves as a whore, I'm going to respond,

"A whore, eh?  Is that like a pleasure attendant?  How nice!  I'll have to catch up with you again on payday!"

[touringCompl3t3]

Another thing I find implausible is the idea of the "Rinth Whore."  I find it unlikely that someone would pay a 'Rinther for sex.

I find it easier to imagine that an Atrium Graduate would have the job of pleasure servant -- somebody trained to be pleasant, attractive and attentive.  Prostitution is not a job of last resort, according to the docs.  It's desirable, well-paying employment.  At the least, a prostitute would have to be healthy, well-bathed and attractive, something which is a noble ambition that most Zalanthans might envy. 

I think some players have trouble wrapping their mind around the fact that a Zalanthan pleasure servant is the social equivalent of a doctor or a lawyer.  A Bynner, for example probably would talk up to a prostitute, rather than talking down to one. 

Maybe if players could imagine that a Zalanthan pleasure service is not very much different from getting a real life spa treatment?

Oh well, just my thoughts. 

[musashi]

I think it's already been stated that the job exists in different levels of society.

So, as a loose example ... a whore is a 'Rinther that other 'rinthi folk spice up for filthy garbage sex.
... a pleasure servant is someone who enslaves themself to a noble to live a really posh life style from now until they get old.

They're both, basically offering the same service, but they're operating in very different circles.

[Tisiphone]

'rinthis might pay 'rinthis for sex, but they're much more likely to indulge in rape or sexual subjection - sex for protection, sex for power, sex for security, sex for not getting carved from neck to spleen.

[RogueGunslinger]

Personally, I don't think the word "whore" should be allowed in game......not from the standpoint that the staff should ban it but it really has no place in the zalanthan vocabulary. 

If I play a prostitute, I'm going to call myself a "pleasure servant".  It conjures a much more friendly picture.

I disagree with this completely. I don't want Zalanthas being filled with words that invoke a 'friendly picture' It's supposed to be harsh, gritty, brutal. I think the language should be as such, too.

Pleasure servant might be what a noble calls his concubine, but I swear if I hear those words from the average 'rinthi Bynner I might blow a gasket.

[Barzalene]

'rinthis might pay 'rinthis for sex, but they're much more likely to indulge in rape or sexual subjection - sex for protection, sex for power, sex for security, sex for not getting carved from neck to spleen.

See, what I don't understand is, how is that not degrading. I'm trying to let go of my 20th century morality, but ... the above doesn't sound perfectly delightful and respectable.

[Tisiphone]

'rinthis might pay 'rinthis for sex, but they're much more likely to indulge in rape or sexual subjection - sex for protection, sex for power, sex for security, sex for not getting carved from neck to spleen.

See, what I don't understand is, how is that not degrading. I'm trying to let go of my 20th century morality, but ... the above doesn't sound perfectly delightful and respectable.

That -is- degrading. But that's the 'rinth.

[Ourla]

'rinthis might pay 'rinthis for sex, but they're much more likely to indulge in rape or sexual subjection - sex for protection, sex for power, sex for security, sex for not getting carved from neck to spleen.

See, what I don't understand is, how is that not degrading. I'm trying to let go of my 20th century morality, but ... the above doesn't sound perfectly delightful and respectable.

That -is- degrading. But that's the 'rinth.

The way I see it, living a life like Tisiphone mentioned in the 'Rinth would not be, to a 'Rinthi, anything at all out of the ordinary.  I haven't played in the 'Rinth, but from what I can see, it's a dog eat dog world in there.  If you have something you can sell, you sell it.  It's what everyone does, and therefore, nothing out of the ordinary. 

No citizen of the Labyrinth would think a woman or man selling sex was degrading because they see it all the time, like we see people standing on street corners holding signs to advertise furniture sales, or hot dog-stand employees.  They have a service that people want.  It's common-place business, maybe even bringing in a somewhat-attractive praticer more sid than your average corpse-grebber or pickpocket.

I believe this casual attitude toward sex extends beyond the 'Rinth into most of Zalanthan culture.  When I see players disregarding it ICly, I try not to let it ruffle my feathers too much.  They just have a bit more learning to do.

[Barzalene]

The way I see it, living a life like Tisiphone mentioned in the 'Rinth would not be, to a 'Rinthi, anything at all out of the ordinary.  I haven't played in the 'Rinth, but from what I can see, it's a dog eat dog world in there.  If you have something you can sell, you sell it.  It's what everyone does, and therefore, nothing out of the ordinary. 

No citizen of the Labyrinth would think a woman or man selling sex was degrading because they see it all the time, like we see people standing on street corners holding signs to advertise furniture sales, or hot dog-stand employees.  They have a service that people want.  It's common-place business, maybe even bringing in a somewhat-attractive praticer more sid than your average corpse-grebber or pickpocket.

I believe this casual attitude toward sex extends beyond the 'Rinth into most of Zalanthan culture.  When I see players disregarding it ICly, I try not to let it ruffle my feathers too much.  They just have a bit more learning to do.

I'm torn.

I completely agree that having different values on Zalanthas makes it far more intriguing and fleshed out than just bringing all of our personal mores and baggage to the game. I'm definitely right there with all of you on that.

The other side of it is, part of the great fun of the game is that so many live in shit. But if your pc isn't cognizant of the fact that they live in shit, then it's less shitty. Know what I mean?

[Tisiphone]

I tend to disagree with you, Ourla, specifically about the 'rinth.

Giving away sex freely or for payment, by your own choice, is one thing.

Being forced into it by threat of death/rape/dismemberment is quite another.

[Greymalkin]

I have to admit, I'm a little afraid of facing a firing squad for posting my opinion on the matter -- and I freely admit it is simply that, an opinion -- but here goes.

I can see a woman (or man, for the sake of argument) being offended when asked if they're a prostitute.  It is a bona fine profession, yes, fair enough -- wholly accepted by the mass.  But there will still be a stigma attached to this line of work, no different than the stigma associated with being, say, a basket weaver (lowly commoner craftsman, rude and slovenly mercenary - they all come equipped with stereotypes, whores being no exception).  There is also the idea of objectification.  Whether a common street whore or an elite courtesan, people would likely perceive either of the two as more of an object designed for sexual gratification than a respected "craftsman".  They offer a service, true: a service designed for you, the client, to use them physically.  I don't see the same sort of objectification entering into the picture if I hire, say, a tailor to mend my clothing.  None of this is me suggesting that I think the term whore is an acceptable derogatory term in Zalanthas.  But for all of the reasons stated above, I can see someone as being offended if they're asked if they are a whore, yes, for the same reason a merchant house agent might get offended if asked if he's a mercenary.

On a slightly unrelated note, I think the wonderful thing about ArmageddonMUD is the abundance of beliefs and customs which exist throughout.  One culture's taboo is another culture's regular practice.  In the days of the ancient Celts of the British Isles (and many other cultures) virgin women were perceived as possessing mystical properties.  They were revered in a sense.  That's a notion which could, arguably, exist in some areas of the game.  I'm not certain I like the approach I sense here on the GDB about sex being this all out free-for-all, sleep with anyone and anything just because that's Zalanthas, with no regard for the foundation of a family and that you, the player, had better accept this and expect to get laughed at for having a mate for life.

On an even less related note, and just for the sake of nitpicking, I've seen people argue that homosexuality was accepted in cultures like Ancient Greece and that's why it's accepted in game.  It's accepted for OOC purposes.  Stating Ancient Greeks operated this way is a misinterpretation of history.  True, the Ancient Greeks didn't bat an eye at bisexuality, but homosexuality (that is, sleeping with the same sex exclusively) was actually quite frowned upon.  I'm saying this because I think all too often posters here get overly fixated on the documentation regarding sex when the vast majority of it is there for OOC purposes and not meant to be reflected on culturally.

[Tisiphone]

I could also see 'whore' used as an insult, not so much because you're a prostitute, but because the word implies that you're a low class prostitute. You're not a courtesan or a concubine, you're a streetwalker.

[LoD]

I could also see 'whore' used as an insult, not so much because you're a prostitute, but because the word implies that you're a low class prostitute. You're not a courtesan or a concubine, you're a streetwalker.

I would agree that the insult inherent in a word like "whore" lay within its implication that you are a low class, street walking seller of carnal pleasure -- which is very likely cheap, unclean, and potentially dangerous.

Other words may very well describe a person that sells themselves, but the connotation associated with those words implies a different relationship.  Escorts, courtesans, concubines, they share a common element but are dressed and presented differently.  Since many of these terms are acceptable within Zalanthas, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing keeping the current connotations associated with the words to cut down on the amount of new words or vocabulary players need to learn.

What should be recognized though is that the business of selling sex in Zalanthas would likely not grate upon the moral fabric of society nearly as much as we might think it does on our own.  Most of us don't live in neighborhoods like those represented in Zalanthas, and we might have very different opinions of each of these positions if we did.  However, since we already have defined words that carry with them a variety of connotations dependent upon the relationship a prostitute holds with their customers, their environment, and themselves, we may as well not try to reinvent the wheel or hinder it from spinning.

-LoD

[Barzalene]

I have to admit, I'm a little afraid of facing a firing squad for posting my opinion on the matter -- and I freely admit it is simply that, an opinion -- but here goes.

I can see a woman (or man, for the sake of argument) being offended when asked if they're a prostitute.  It is a bona fine profession, yes, fair enough -- wholly accepted by the mass.  But there will still be a stigma attached to this line of work, no different than the stigma associated with being, say, a basket weaver (lowly commoner craftsman, rude and slovenly mercenary - they all come equipped with stereotypes, whores being no exception).  There is also the idea of objectification.  Whether a common street whore or an elite courtesan, people would likely perceive either of the two as more of an object designed for sexual gratification than a respected "craftsman".  They offer a service, true: a service designed for you, the client, to use them physically.  I don't see the same sort of objectification entering into the picture if I hire, say, a tailor to mend my clothing.  None of this is me suggesting that I think the term whore is an acceptable derogatory term in Zalanthas.  But for all of the reasons stated above, I can see someone as being offended if they're asked if they are a whore, yes, for the same reason a merchant house agent might get offended if asked if he's a mercenary.

On a slightly unrelated note, I think the wonderful thing about ArmageddonMUD is the abundance of beliefs and customs which exist throughout.  One culture's taboo is another culture's regular practice.  In the days of the ancient Celts of the British Isles (and many other cultures) virgin women were perceived as possessing mystical properties.  They were revered in a sense.  That's a notion which could, arguably, exist in some areas of the game.  I'm not certain I like the approach I sense here on the GDB about sex being this all out free-for-all, sleep with anyone and anything just because that's Zalanthas, with no regard for the foundation of a family and that you, the player, had better accept this and expect to get laughed at for having a mate for life.

On an even less related note, and just for the sake of nitpicking, I've seen people argue that homosexuality was accepted in cultures like Ancient Greece and that's why it's accepted in game.  It's accepted for OOC purposes.  Stating Ancient Greeks operated this way is a misinterpretation of history.  True, the Ancient Greeks didn't bat an eye at bisexuality, but homosexuality (that is, sleeping with the same sex exclusively) was actually quite frowned upon.  I'm saying this because I think all too often posters here get overly fixated on the documentation regarding sex when the vast majority of it is there for OOC purposes and not meant to be reflected on culturally.

Greymalken states very cogently what I wanted to say.
I think that neither the idea of a great and extended mating of many and the life long mating of two should be considered exceptional.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not certain I like the approach I sense here on the GDB about sex being this all out free-for-all, sleep with anyone and anything just because that's Zalanthas, with no regard for the foundation of a family and that you, the player, had better accept this and expect to get laughed at for having a mate for life.

I hardly see this in any of the posts I've seen, not even if taken out of context. And it's definitely not like that in game. I've witnessed plenty of long lasting(until character death) relationships that were well portrayed on either side.

[a strange shadow]

You know you've got a unique situation in PC Zalanthas when you have several ex-partners... who are still alive.

The offensiveness of whore depends on the context and who it's directed at. Greymalkin said it.

[Marauder Moe]

Part of the sexual freedom of Zalanthas is accepting that long-lasting exclusive relationships also happen.  It's not freedom if monogamists are discriminated against, it'd just be restrictive in the opposite way modern culture is.

Monogamy and polygamy are both equally acceptable.

[Morrolan]

I could also see 'whore' used as an insult, not so much because you're a prostitute, but because the word implies that you're a low class prostitute. You're not a courtesan or a concubine, you're a streetwalker.

I could see this used as an insult mostly in one specific case: against a courtesan, or concubine.

[Greymalkin]

I'd like to go back to my earlier point about objectification if I may.

It has been argued that prostitution is one of the oldest professions and that, supposedly, in more ancient times was considered as worthy a profession as any other.  It was accepted as a regular course.

However, I still think even in those times there must've been some measure of negative emotions connoted with a prostitution.  Again, I'll use an example of comparing an every day craftsman, such as a cobbler, to the craft of prostitution.  I'm not "using" the cobbler in the same sense that I am a prostitute when I rent her services.  The differences are going to psychologically enter into the picture.  It's just that in those days one's emotions weren't regarded in the humane context they are today.  Nobody stopped (or more importantly, cared) to think that caning a child for getting a question wrong in school might leave serious long term scars to him psychologically.  But just because these things weren't openly discussed doesn't mean they didn't exist.  Just because all throughout history most marriages were pre-arranged and not done out of love doesn't mean people didn't fantasize about the idea of love or a life long lover.  Just because children's emotions weren't considered doesn't mean they didn't have emotions.

So, arguably, yes the idea of looking at prostitution as bad or wrong wouldn't be part of Zalanthas's culture.  Fair enough.  But that doesn't mean that certain emotions won't exist, both from the buyer and seller.  The seller (i.e., the prostitute) is bound to have some feelings, however well-hidden, of being used, treated as an object.  The buyer on the other hand might just look upon the prostitute in question as a rag you toss in the laundry (rubbish?) bin when you're finished.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Just something interesting...about our world concerning prostitution.
This is sorta like how Zalanthas should be...parts of it...about italy and venice and such.

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=30919

This is basically safe for work...except maybe that it talks about prostitution.  But no real nudity in this.

[Desertman]

I have to say it really bothers me when I see basic commoner PC's getting up in arms and offended about the harsh realities of Zalanthas.

Prostitution - As common place, if not more so, than cooks, crafters, carpenters.

There are people starving to death in the streets so often in this world that we have a corpse pile that never depletes. Slavery is the backbone of the economy, sexual slavery being a major factor in its self. Get over being offended about prostitution, its silly. Especially if you are an average commoner. This is Zalanthas, not the United States.

[musashi]

That's right! And start looting those bodies for boots!

[Shoka Windrunner]

And start adding corpses to the pile!  Minus boots!

[Barzalene]

I have to say it really bothers me when I see basic commoner PC's getting up in arms and offended about the harsh realities of Zalanthas.

Prostitution - As common place, if not more so, than cooks, crafters, carpenters.

There are people starving to death in the streets so often in this world that we have a corpse pile that never depletes. Slavery is the backbone of the economy, sexual slavery being a major factor in its self. Get over being offended about prostitution, its silly. Especially if you are an average commoner. This is Zalanthas, not the United States.

I apologize for repeating myself, but I wanted to reiterate that I think if your pc is unaware that their reality is shitty, then it defeats the point. If everyone is perfectly comfortable with the levels of desperation and despair, then no one is going to be desperate or despairing. I think that's a mistake.

[Desertman]

Despair is fine.

What I dont like to see is...."I am so appalled by the notion that someone would ever sell their body and I am a commoner who has seen it probably every day of thier life since they were a child"

You can be like..."Man, this fuckin sucks having to suck Byn dick for spice money"

But..."This is morally wrong on so many levels due to these feelings I was born with despite my environment growing up my whole life"

[Barzalene]

I see what you're saying. I feel the same way about begging. I think that whoring and begging should be about equal in status. Sucks to be them. But I don't think preachers should come out of the walls to preach against it. I think the correct response to these professions should be closer to mild pity than outright horror. It's not horrifying, it's just a bit sad. And I think both beggar and whore are legitimate insults, for the same reasons.

[Desertman]

I see what you're saying. I feel the same way about begging. I think that whoring and begging should be about equal in status. Sucks to be them. But I don't think preachers should come out of the walls to preach against it. I think the correct response to these professions should be closer to mild pity than outright horror. It's not horrifying, it's just a bit sad. And I think both beggar and whore are legitimate insults, for the same reasons.

I agree.

I dont think people should be happy about having to sell cunt for a living lol...I was just saying we shouldnt have a ton of PC's acting appalled by the mere sight of a whore. They see them constantly technically.

[Is Friday]

Or my favorite:

Slaves are treated so poorly.