Sexism and Whoring in Zalanthas

[RogueGunslinger]

whore, prostitute, concubine
thug, mercenary, guard, soldier
lackey, assistant, aide, adviser, concubine

[Barzalene]

I don't see the sort of events that the OP is pointing out. I can't recall hearing anyone called a slut or a whore, or anyone taking a great interest in who people sleep with at all.

I haven't noticed anyone saying eww whores.

[X-D]

I have...and quite recently.

[Barzalene]

Is it pervasive or just one or two misguided people?

[X-D]

Even one or two can end up being pervasive, Though It was more then one or two and others got into it as well.

[Barzalene]

That sucks. But it seems to be a new trend, doesn't it?

[X-D]

New? No. Like everything else in the game it comes and goes in cycles.  The same as other threads have mentioned with homosexuality IG and mages, what have you.  As numbers of new players goes up so does the amount of OOC viewpoints get brought into game. Threads like this get started, of which there have likley been hundreds over the years but it brings it back to light again. When the number of new players slows down then the new players become old players and you will not see it as often till the next cycle of incoming new players.

One of the best things to be done about it has been, start a thread to talk about it. The next thing is for people to set the proper example IG.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

One of the things that 'no standards' implies is that it is not wrong to think any one way. Some characters would have a reason to not like homosexuals, or prostitutes, or men, or girls, or whatever. While most characters should not give a rat's ass about such things, there will be reasons for some characters to give a rat's ass.

Make sure that your dislike is directed towards a player bringing such a viewpoint into the game, as opposed to that player happening to have a character who was butt-tickled at age 4 by a male mul.

[Taven]

Like most professions, there are degrees of respectability.  Also, like most professions, there are other names for different degrees.

whore, prostitute, concubine
thug, mercenary, guard, soldier
lackey, assistant, aide, adviser

Calling someone a concubine would never be any more insulting than calling someone a soldier.  In fact, it could be a compliment.  Calling someone a whore who is clearly on a higher social level, though, might be insulting.  Just like calling someone of a higher social level a thug or lackey.

In short, it's not the sexual services profession that makes the term "whore" insulting, it's the implication of being low-class.

Marauder Moe

I actually found this comment very thought-provoking, and correct to a large extent. However, it doesn't cross over well if, again, only female PCs are called whores, and they're called this if they aren't. Whore is far more commonly used to degrade then "thug" or "lackey" is. There are incredibly insulting ways to talk to people all without ever calling a person a whore. For example, regardless of profession, it would certainly be an insult to imply that they could only afford a dirty (add 'Rinthi' if in Allanak) half-breed whore crawling with lice and flees. That implies low-class very well, and it's not calling a female PC a whore because they're female. If they are clearly a whore, or well-known for it, it could be applicable. I still think that 'whore' as name-calling is really only used specifically in regards to PCs of the female gender.

Make sure that your dislike is directed towards a player bringing such a viewpoint into the game, as opposed to that player happening to have a character who was butt-tickled at age 4 by a male mul.

We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

[RogueGunslinger]

We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't give a shit if it's IC for their character to act against the documentation. They need to stop it. It's ruining the game.


That's not directed at you Taven.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, I didn't mean to say that I believe every use of the word "whore" as an insult was done correctly.  I'm just saying that sometimes it does make sense as one.  People should absolutely try to be aware of how they use it.

One of the things that 'no standards' implies is that it is not wrong to think any one way. Some characters would have a reason to not like homosexuals, or prostitutes, or men, or girls, or whatever. While most characters should not give a rat's ass about such things, there will be reasons for some characters to give a rat's ass.

We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

Considering that the no-homophobia rule is actually an OOC mandate rather than just an IC guideline, I would say that playing a character with "justified" homophobia is probably not an appropriate thing to do.  You character doesn't have to like the idea of sleeping with people of the same sex, but they really shouldn't translate that into a reason to discriminate against those who do.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

• Assuming that you can not have a character who displays homophobia for any reason, is it also accurate to say that you can not have a character who exhibits hetrophobia as well?
• Assuming that we shouldn't use the word whore/slut/cunt/etc to commonly degrade women, are we also saying that we can not use these words to commonly downgrade males?

If the answer to both of these questions are yes, then fine. I have nothing more to say. If the answer to both of these questions is not yes, then I think we are displaying a bias to one side or the other, no matter how you slice the cake.

[Shoka Windrunner]

• Assuming that you can not have a character who displays homophobia for any reason, is it also accurate to say that you can not have a character who exhibits hetrophobia as well?
• Assuming that we shouldn't use the word whore to commonly degrade women, are we also saying that we can not use the word to commonly downgrade males?

If the answer to both of these questions are yes, then fine. I have nothing more to say. If the answer to both of these questions is not yes, then I think we are displaying a bias to one side or the other, no matter who you slice the cake.

To the first one that is a definite 'Yes.'

To the second question.  I think like it's been said, it depends on who your talking to whether it would even be an insult.  Call a noble (male or female) a whore and it's an insult.  Call Joe Amos a whore.  It's a new idea for Amos to make money and not even an insult at all.  It'd be like in RL calling someone a chef.  Or a cook.  Or a librarian.

Cause whores are cool and all in Zalanthas. 

[Barzalene]

Like most professions, there are degrees of respectability.  Also, like most professions, there are other names for different degrees.

whore, prostitute, concubine
thug, mercenary, guard, soldier
lackey, assistant, aide, adviser

Calling someone a concubine would never be any more insulting than calling someone a soldier.  In fact, it could be a compliment.  Calling someone a whore who is clearly on a higher social level, though, might be insulting.  Just like calling someone of a higher social level a thug or lackey.

In short, it's not the sexual services profession that makes the term "whore" insulting, it's the implication of being low-class.

Marauder Moe

I actually found this comment very thought-provoking, and correct to a large extent. However, it doesn't cross over well if, again, only female PCs are called whores, and they're called this if they aren't. Whore is far more commonly used to degrade then "thug" or "lackey" is. There are incredibly insulting ways to talk to people all without ever calling a person a whore. For example, regardless of profession, it would certainly be an insult to imply that they could only afford a dirty (add 'Rinthi' if in Allanak) half-breed whore crawling with lice and flees. That implies low-class very well, and it's not calling a female PC a whore because they're female. If they are clearly a whore, or well-known for it, it could be applicable. I still think that 'whore' as name-calling is really only used specifically in regards to PCs of the female gender.


We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

I don't know that I completely agree that a lack of sexual stigma based on promiscuity would translate into whoring being respectable. I don't know that I agree that concubines are respected (though I'm sure they are envied.) This has nothing to do with gender. I think, that the idea of selling intimacy is inherently debasing. However, that's an opinion, and it's subjective. If the objective point of view is that it is not inherently degrading then I have, and will honor my obligation to rp that there's nothing particularly wrong with it.

Now, that doesn't mean that my pc's would rather starve than sell their bodies. That to me seem very much counter to the survival outlook that seems most zalanthan. And my pc's would not look down on a pc because they were prostitutes. They wouldn't shun them, or feel that the pc was defined by the whoring. But they might, to an extent pity them. It's hard to think of it as a good job.

And tangentially, my pc might respect a hard working whore more than a concubine, for the same reasons I might respect a waitress more than a super model.

[X-D]

I think, that the idea of selling intimacy is inherently debasing

Only replying to that one line. Because I wonder how it can be any more debasing then any other job. Selling your body to be possibly hacked to pieces while you guard rich merchant #12 for a few hundred coins is less debasing? Huh?

As my PCs tend to see it, a successful whore has one hell of a nice job. Safe (comparably speaking) Easy, with plenty of perks

[Vox]

Until they code in sexually transmitted diseases...

[Khorm]

I think, that the idea of selling intimacy is inherently debasing

Only replying to that one line. Because I wonder how it can be any more debasing then any other job. Selling your body to be possibly hacked to pieces while you guard rich merchant #12 for a few hundred coins is less debasing? Huh?

As my PCs tend to see it, a successful whore has one hell of a nice job. Safe (comparably speaking) Easy, with plenty of perks

I'm not sure I would consider the selling of intimacy debasing on a societal level. As I've come to understand sexuality and sex in general on Zalanthas... it seems to be a pretty widely accepted phenomena. I wouldn't expect a "whore" to receive the same treatment that one would in say.. the united states.

Now, whether or not your character treats sex as physically and/or emotionally intimate is another thing entirely, and it seems as though the definition of debasing could certainly change from person to person. If my character were to share the same thoughts that I have on the topic, sure.. selling that sort of emotional intimacy would be debasing. But hell, life is cheap on Zalanthas and I'd expect that sex holds an even lesser value.

[touringCompl3t3]

Tavern,

I completely agree.  That was the reason I recommended adding gender stereotypes back to arm 2.0.  My belief was that most players lacked the maturity to treat men and women the same.  I felt that people who wanted to play tough, macho characters could play men and that players who wanted to play gentle, submissive characters could play women, regardless of their real life gender.

Obviously, this is a sensitive issue though and I don't think things are going to change in the near future.  The issues are far too complicated for things to get sorted out on a discussion board. 

I feel your pain, though.

[Barzalene]

We can't always know the details of why a PC acts the way they do, but if it is for IC reasons, based on that PC's past, then it is perfectly legit for them to act the way they do. There's enough instances of it, however, that I can't imagine that it's all based on history. It never hurts to examine how we as players play, and make sure that we aren't letting OOC prejudices slip in where they don't belong.

You make a very good point. And I think it's something I will personally have to take a look at and call myself on my belief that whoring is a job of last resort.

[Dalmeth]

Until they code in sexually transmitted diseases...

This is a large part of the reason why whores are generally looked down upon.  They are generally viewed as dirty.  Instances where whores are not looked down upon generally are when they get organized and start setting standards in their customers as well their workers.

So, you want whores to be respectable?  Start a professional whorehouse in the next game.

[naatok]

On Sexual roles:
Since when is roleplaying a 'girlie-girl' female character a poor choice of character concept for ArmageddonMud?
Because the world is harsh?  With that line of reasoning one would expect that humanoid and other animal females would not have the instinct to nurture their young.

So-called feminine behavior on Terra is a combination of sociological factors and genetic predisposition.  On Earth there are males and females of several species of animals we've studied who are predisposed to some of the so-called feminine behavioral model.  Such behavior has been observed in animals in captivity since the Victorian era, and more species have been added to the list over the past twenty years of study.  This behavior includes homosexual roles in relationship (this has been observed in MANY species for both sexes, especially in captivity.  Adult male penguins have been observed to pair bond, build nests together, copulate and otherwise engage in all the activites of adult male-female penguin pair bondings.  The same has been observed in this and other species of female-female pair bonding.

Effete, docile, demure, nurturing behavior in both sexes is NOT unusual in any sense of rarety in most social mammals on Earth.  Considering the wide rage of ecological conditions for the various species observed to have such behavior, I cannot assume this behavior would be extinct in a so-called 'harsh' environment such as most of Zalanthas is.  There are obviously survival advantages to this behavioral model.  Judging from scientific study there are probably just as many advantages to this behavior, if not more, than aggressive, violent, dominant behavior in social animals.

From what I've observed in roleplay on Arm, sexism and stereotyping of sexual roles has been, for the most part, perpetuated by a minority of characters.  I've seen very docile, effete, nurturing, and submissive male and female characters who, true to life, will turn on a dime (or 'sid piece if you prefer) and become very efficient violent defenders and killers.  I've also observed both aggressive and submissive types exhibit submissive behavior when their lives are threatened by force they are unable to defend against through violent means.  Which is also quite natural.

I've been playing and observing roleplayed behavior in this game for many years now and have absolutely no problem with characters roleplayed to be non-aggressive for the most part.  The idea that harsh environmental conditions would predispose extinction of so-called 'feminine' behavior is ludicrous.  It is, in itself an ignorant sexual stereotype.

On Whoring:
I've NEVER understood the generalized behavior in Zalanthas of viewing sexual prostitution in a negative context.  As others have pointed out, yes, of course SOME segments of the population would find being called a prostitue or whore insulting.  But for the vast majority of people, I seriously doubt that would be the case.

In cultures with unrestricted or very lightly restricted sexual mores, prostitutes have historically been respected, and in some cultures even venerated.  It is in cultures where the genders are less equal in socially perceived 'value' systems where we find prostitution, and sexual activity outside culturally established moral 'guidelines' in general to be taboo or viewed with negative connotations.

[Jingo]

I was going to point out the veneration of temple p in past cultures but Naatok beat me to it.

Also, in past cultures it was perfectly acceptable for a wealthy man to take on mistresses (concubines) and support them materially.

One the things that has continually bothered me about the game is that sexual favors are a legitimate way of achieving elevated status accross the board. Don't get me wrong here, I don't think it shouldn't happen in Zalanthas, just that it shouldn't be the ideal.

If a colleague recieves elevated status for sexing the boss, does that mean my character would slap them on the back with a congratulation? Unlikely, especially if my character has their eyes on a similar position and is unwilling go to those extents.

Also, if I have a young character that is picked as a paramour by a wealthier individual, does that only mean they should only feel joy now that their life is "set"? Or does that mean that they might suffer shame and guild despite the material benefits? I think it's perfectly reasononable to play a character at one end or between both possibilites.

[flurry]

On Sexual roles:
Since when is roleplaying a 'girlie-girl' female character a poor choice of character concept for ArmageddonMud?
Because the world is harsh?  With that line of reasoning one would expect that humanoid and other animal females would not have the instinct to nurture their young.

I agree with this; I don't think feminine characters are any more out of place in Zalanthas than masculine characters.

[mansa]

This is a slight derail, but a good example of how these notions can creep into the game.

When I was building a portion of my settlement known as the Lower Market, I had a small number of fundamental shops that I wanted to be represented.  Armor-Clothing, Non-Armor-Clothing, Tailor, Weapons, Food, Water, and basic Supplies.  I only realized about halfway through the process that I was being influenced by Western culture gender roles when I was assigning the shop keepers to their respective shops.

I had envisioned females in the roles of the baker and the clothing shop, while choosing males for the weapons and armor shops.  After realizing what I had done, I then wrestled with the notion that if a shop had a 50/50 chance of being owned/operated by a male or female, should I make any attempt to dispel those stereotypes and purposefully choose females for roles that would typically be held by males based on these Western cultural views?

I ended up largely keeping the concepts that I'd already decided upon, half of which were female and half of which were male.  However, I am careful to consider these things in future development and ensure that my personal Earthly concepts surrounding gender roles don't necessarily creep into the game any more than they should as I design other roles within the settlement such as prostitutes, bouncers, servers, manual labor, guards and soldiers (including officers and positions of leadership), council members, heads of families, cooks, and so on.

While the topic of sexism and whether it belongs in Armageddon has been beaten to death, I definitely think it can be useful to remind people of specific instances where it's creeping into the game and they don't even realize they're doing it -- as it was for me.

Hey Beeeetal,

I would prefer it if there was a bigger ratio of gender roles being opposite of western culture roles as represented by NPCs and vNPCs in the game.  Something closer to 70/30 instead of 50/50.

Why?

Because all players are "influenced" by North American culture, and would combat the pre-set notion of 50/50 as represented by the NPCs, which would push it over towards a "more likely North American" fantasy setting.  If there was more female "armourers" and more male "clothiers", more female "weapon crafters" and more male "orphanage overseers".

The NPCs create some of the culture of the city, and I'd like each and every one exaggerate the wonderful culture of Zalanthas, and diminish the typical western fantasy setting. 

I'd like all the builders and players who submit objects, npcs, and rooms, to take this in mind.  We're trying to craft a world that is different than the typical western fantasy setting, and that it's BETTER than the typical western fantasy setting!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That just creates new gender roles, specific to Armageddon. 50/50 is just fine for enforcing the concept of no gender roles.