Sexism and Whoring in Zalanthas

[Taven]

There is no sexism in Zalanthas.  Woman and men both exist in the same harsh conditions and both are equally capable. They aren't discriminated against for gender; or that's how it works in theory. There have been a few threads on sexism in Zalanthas, but to my knowledge, this particular spin hasn't been brought up. We've talked about how all the ruling heads are men (Tek, Utep, Sandlord, etc.) and how that may affect the world of Zalanthas. The point I wanted to bring up, however, I think is far more mundane and close to home.

I think there is some sexism in Zalanthas, and rather then it being IC, it's derived from our world, as players. We bring ideas from our world, and apply them to our PCs thinking that it's IC. Everyone has seen this at least once; the newbie PC who can't seem to get a grip that no, this isn't a democracy, and yes, the Templars, Chosen Lady/Lords or other ruling powers can kill you on whim, if they desire (which is somewhat curbed for playing purposes, but torture works too, or fines). Those players either leave, or learn how things work after a few PCs and understand. However, I think that the sexism seen in PCs isn't necessarily recognized as un-zalanthian (as I believe it to be, and you may disagree) and remains unchanging.

I have played both male and female PCs. If a male PC hits on a female, it is accepted, and while the male maybe considered crude, it is not considered out of the ordinary. If a female PC does the same, usually in a less direct and obvious manner, she is either declared a whore, or a slut. There is no marriage in Zalanthas. There are relationships with multiply parents in Zalanthas. Why, then, can a male PC do as he wishes while a female PC is restrained by being viewed as a "slut" or "whore"? I believe the answer is pure as simple: the sexism we as players bring into the game.

Another good example of this is who is considered a whore. If there is a PC female written up to be attractive, she is automatically assumed to be some sort of whore. This is partially because statistical speaking, there are vastly more female PC whores then males. However, I still have yet to see a well-written man PC get the same amount of fuss about it, and whore references as a female PC. Not only that, but isn't calling someone a whore to be degrading also from our OOC perspective, rather then an IC perspective? There are, of course, always the lesser whores. However, if you're a good-looking woman (or man) and can not only have men interested in you, but pay you for the time, wouldn't that be re guarded as extremely impressive? Even if whoring is considered a low, declaratory profession, it should still be just as likely that a good-looking man would be likely to be degraded as a whore as a good-looking woman.

I have never seen a man degraded by being called a whore, a slut, or otherwise insulting his choice of per suits. As I've said, I think this is largely a result of us, as players, bringing it into the game. I know I'm not blameless in it, I've made assumptions before, and had my PCs hold lower opinions of people because of it. However, I also think part of it maybe the game world itself. There is no sexism in Zalanthas, but I have never seen (that I recall) a male NPC whore. I could have missed it, but I have seen numerous female PC whores in Tuluk, Allanak, and the Rinth. I think that those things significantly influence the player perceptions of things as well, and doesn't seem to fit with the Zalanthian concept of no sexism.

What are your thoughts?

[FelixVonValidus]

your beating a dead horse bro, everything that you've said, applies to real life, and if you wanna discuss the human condition in real life, talk to a psychology or sociology professor.

[staggerlee]

It's better than I expected it would be as far as the things you've listed.
I've seen a lot of very unconventional relationships played out in the game without the expected social stigma.
I love the very tough women in the game that sleep with whoever they please and are far too badass to take criticism for it, and the very tough gay men that do the same.  I was really excited when I joined the game and found prominent people behaving that way.

It's easy to become a victim in the game, and a lot of it is in how you as the player act.

Now I'm not arguing that there isn't some sexism going on, and I don't want to get into a diatriabe about gender.  But what you should remember is that the documentation and game world clearly state that there is not more social stigma or restriction placed on sexual activity in women than men.  It's all fair game, so if someone is trying to be a dick about it you do have the upper hand.  Use that to your advantage.

[Elgiva]

I believe there are NPC male whores. I recall a couple without much thinking. I also remember some uber-cool male PC whores from past. And to add to it, I know about some men who were called "whore" - and I recall one hilarious scene some year ago where male was called a whore, overheard it and immediatelly asked if the person who called him that would be willing to pay two smalls for his services. Indeed, the situation might be very different now - but I still don't think it's as serious as it sounds.

[Betaal]

This is a slight derail, but a good example of how these notions can creep into the game.

When I was building a portion of my settlement known as the Lower Market, I had a small number of fundamental shops that I wanted to be represented.  Armor-Clothing, Non-Armor-Clothing, Tailor, Weapons, Food, Water, and basic Supplies.  I only realized about halfway through the process that I was being influenced by Western culture gender roles when I was assigning the shop keepers to their respective shops.

I had envisioned females in the roles of the baker and the clothing shop, while choosing males for the weapons and armor shops.  After realizing what I had done, I then wrestled with the notion that if a shop had a 50/50 chance of being owned/operated by a male or female, should I make any attempt to dispel those stereotypes and purposefully choose females for roles that would typically be held by males based on these Western cultural views?

I ended up largely keeping the concepts that I'd already decided upon, half of which were female and half of which were male.  However, I am careful to consider these things in future development and ensure that my personal Earthly concepts surrounding gender roles don't necessarily creep into the game any more than they should as I design other roles within the settlement such as prostitutes, bouncers, servers, manual labor, guards and soldiers (including officers and positions of leadership), council members, heads of families, cooks, and so on.

While the topic of sexism and whether it belongs in Armageddon has been beaten to death, I definitely think it can be useful to remind people of specific instances where it's creeping into the game and they don't even realize they're doing it -- as it was for me.

[Spoon]

If the male character I'm playing is of a crude nature, I will have him hoot and holler at women if he's straight/bisexual. However, if someone does the same to a man he won't turn a blind eye. This is because this is the PC I'm role playing at the time, and I want then to be a dirty lecher!

The thing is I don't want my PC labeled as being played by someone who 'doesn't get it' in terms of the gender equality. Someone might see him being crude to a woman and think I, as a player, don't get it. Stir it up a little and react in a Zalanthian way if you think someone's being sexist, you might find out they're simply a bag of filth. Gender equality has nothing to do with being nice to anyone, it's about not expecting certain actions/reactions, prejudices and stereotypes.

If you do think someone isn't getting it, it's worth contacting the staff about. I don't want all our open minded players to leave because some people didn't bother reading the rules.

[Vessol]

On a similar vein I suppose, what has irked me in the game is hearing the word 'faggot' IG when describing a homosexual. I didn't say anything IG, maybe I should have, seeing as the word 'faggot' comes from a Earth concept that the wood they used to burn homosexuals at the stake they called faggots, thus the word is a reference to Earthly things.

[Spoon]

The main problem with that I see is that it's derogatory towards homosexuals. I'd be tempted to give that player a big OOC slap around the face, but it's be best to use the player complaint tool, as you'll likely just get a juvenile OOC message back.

[staggerlee]

Yeah I haven't noticed much of that, but the player complaint tool is ideal for any kind of circumstance in which you feel another player is doing something drastically against the documentation like that.

Then if there is a justifiable ic reason, the staff and player in question will know, and if there is not they can deal with that as well.  There's no harm in sending out a false alarm, and if it's a problem it's the best, least disruptive way to deal with it.

[Tallulah]

Whoring is a legitimate profession on Zalanthas.  Calling someone a whore shouldn't be an insult.

[musashi]

Agreed. I've known PCs in the game who lamented at great length on their love of whores and spice 

Some of those lamenting were women.

[Teal]

Ahem. Note to self: Do not press "reply" when reading a thread and not replying. >.>

Anywhos.

I believe there are NPC male whores. I recall a couple without much thinking. I also remember some uber-cool male PC whores from past. And to add to it, I know about some men who were called "whore" - and I recall one hilarious scene some year ago where male was called a whore, overheard it and immediatelly asked if the person who called him that would be willing to pay two smalls for his services. Indeed, the situation might be very different now - but I still don't think it's as serious as it sounds.

This is awesome. I met a really funny male PC whore. I think they're BETTER then those silly women whores. Bwahaha. Reverse sexism. ;P

[deconstruct99]

Sexism is always going to continue in the game as long as 80% of the female population continue to act like "girly girls" in their lifestyle and emotions.

[Agent_137]

Sexism is always going to continue in the game as long as 80% of the female population continue to act like "girly girls" in their lifestyle and emotions.

and 40% of the males who play armageddon continue to play girly girls.

[amish overlord]

Sexism is always going to continue in the game as long as 80% of the female population continue to act like "girly girls" in their lifestyle and emotions.

We need more big fat female byn sergeants that scratch themselves and fart(remember a char that did this) and mannized(opposite of womanized). If remember correctly.

Amish Overlord 

[Mood]

My male whores rock.

[Rhyden]

Some of the manliest, kick-ass characters I've seen have been females. Some of the girliest, pansy-ass characters I've seen have been males. I've seen girly girls and manly men, f-mes and tall, muscular types, but only in Armageddon can you see them all.

In other words, I've never seen bad sexism issues in Arm and would hope that our sexy, yet non-sexist characters demonstrate that general perspective well in the game as much as out of it.

[Sarah]

Sexism is always going to continue in the game as long as 80% of the female population continue to act like "girly girls" in their lifestyle and emotions.

True. But the majority of males act like "manly males" too (maybe not 80%, but I haven't measured).

We need more big fat female byn sergeants that scratch themselves and fart(remember a char that did this) and mannized(opposite of womanized). If remember correctly.

Amish Overlord 

Again, we need more males acting kind of prissy, too. It shouldn't be down to the way that females act... although I agree that it's more of a problem with female pcs.

The problem is that most females prefer playing female pcs and probably prefer to act feminine. Males probably prefer to play males who act masculine.

I've played male pcs on several occassions and noticed that as a male you aren't treated nearly as well. People obviously favour females (giving them an easier time/more free handouts, more job offers, etc).

I then wanted to experiment by playing a pc with the sdesc and main desc of what people would refer to as "f-me"... it was an uncomfortable experience. I've found that, often before she even spoke, that my pc was not been taken seriously, and was even called a whore (far from her personality or her actions) in a way that was obviously meant as an insult.... all this while in the company of male pcs with ripped muscles, broad shoulders, strong jawlines and overall rugged exteriors. She had a good personality.  Even though there are those ridiculously beautiful pcs (female AND male) out there with the f-me personality to go along with it, people should try to avoid judging in an ooc way... for all you know, that "f-me" could actually be a ruthless killer.


I think it's important to bring this topic up every so often because I don't think things are quite sinking in.

[Taven]

your beating a dead horse bro, everything that you've said, applies to real life, and if you wanna discuss the human condition in real life, talk to a psychology or sociology professor.

FelixVonValidus

Please, let it be a dead KANK if it must be a mount.

I'm not talking about sexism and whoring in real-life, so much as how that influences our game. I can talk until I'm blue in the face to a psychology or sociology professor but it won't affect Zalanthas. I think a large part of it is us, as players, taking another look at how we're playing.

the documentation and game world clearly state that there is not more social stigma or restriction placed on sexual activity in women than men.  It's all fair game, so if someone is trying to be a dick about it you do have the upper hand.  Use that to your advantage.

staggerlee

Stir it up a little and react in a Zalanthian way if you think someone's being sexist, you might find out they're simply a bag of filth. Gender equality has nothing to do with being nice to anyone, it's about not expecting certain actions/reactions, prejudices and stereotypes.

Spoon

I'm not saying that being a bag of filth isn't Zalanthian. I'm looking at the way we as players choose to portray that. For example, wouldn't it make more sense rather then to call someone a slut where there is no sexual stigma to say that they slept with a fucking point-eared skinny? Or worse, a filthy breed? Maybe they were Rinthi, or a Gemmer. There are all sorts of ways to be very crude without relying on what I consider insults that don't apply to Zalanthas.

This is a slight derail, but a good example of how these notions can creep into the game.

I had envisioned females in the roles of the baker and the clothing shop, while choosing males for the weapons and armor shops.  After realizing what I had done, I then wrestled with the notion that if a shop had a 50/50 chance of being owned/operated by a male or female, should I make any attempt to dispel those stereotypes and purposefully choose females for roles that would typically be held by males based on these Western cultural views?

Betaal

I actually think this is an excellent example of what I'm trying to get at. We don't always intentionally do it, but real-life perceptions can creep in without us always noticing.

I believe there are NPC male whores. I recall a couple without much thinking. I also remember some uber-cool male PC whores from past. And to add to it, I know about some men who were called "whore" - and I recall one hilarious scene some year ago where male was called a whore, overheard it and immediatelly asked if the person who called him that would be willing to pay two smalls for his services. Indeed, the situation might be very different now - but I still don't think it's as serious as it sounds.

Elgiva

This is awesome. I met a really funny male PC whore. I think they're BETTER then those silly women whores. Bwahaha. Reverse sexism. ;P

Teal

The whores I've met and had any significant interaction with were very well played. I may be making it sound like a bigger issue then it is, but I did feel that it needed to be brought up. I think that there are a lot of times when our OOC perceptions sneak in without us necessarily realizing it. Taking another look at how we play, how others play, and reflecting can help determine this, and help us fix anything that might have unknowingly snuck in.

Some of the manliest, kick-ass characters I've seen have been females. Some of the girliest, pansy-ass characters I've seen have been males. I've seen girly girls and manly men, f-mes and tall, muscular types, but only in Armageddon can you see them all.

In other words, I've never seen bad sexism issues in Arm and would hope that our sexy, yet non-sexist characters demonstrate that general perspective well in the game as much as out of it.

Rhyden

I've also seen a lot of diversity in characters. I've seen the female bad-ass PC that nearly anyone, male or female, wouldn't mess with lightly. I've also seen the 'pansy-ass' male PCs that don't necessarily appear that way at first, but are. I'm not arguing that Zalanthas doesn't have good diversity, or a wide-variety of character 'types'. I still think that there are instances where if you're playing a female PC you get hassled in ways you wouldn't if you played a male. Not in "zalanthian ways" either. I have no problem, as previously stated, with grungy, dirt-bag PCs. They help flavor Zalanthas. I do think that many times these PCs rely on what we consider in our society to be stigma, rather then Zalanthian stigma.

I've played male pcs on several occassions and noticed that as a male you aren't treated nearly as well. People obviously favour females (giving them an easier time/more free handouts, more job offers, etc).

I then wanted to experiment by playing a pc with the sdesc and main desc of what people would refer to as "f-me"... it was an uncomfortable experience. I've found that, often before she even spoke, that my pc was not been taken seriously, and was even called a whore (far from her personality or her actions) in a way that was obviously meant as an insult.... all this while in the company of male pcs with ripped muscles, broad shoulders, strong jawlines and overall rugged exteriors. She had a good personality.  Even though there are those ridiculously beautiful pcs (female AND male) out there with the f-me personality to go along with it, people should try to avoid judging in an ooc way... for all you know, that "f-me" could actually be a ruthless killer.

I think it's important to bring this topic up every so often because I don't think things are quite sinking in.

I think that this covers the point that I'm trying to make fairly well.

[flurry]

On a similar vein I suppose, what has irked me in the game is hearing the word 'faggot' IG when describing a homosexual. I didn't say anything IG, maybe I should have, seeing as the word 'faggot' comes from a Earth concept that the wood they used to burn homosexuals at the stake they called faggots, thus the word is a reference to Earthly things.

I've seen this every now and then, too.  Most likely from new players who don't get it yet.

[Marauder Moe]

However, just because a male PC treats a female PC better than other male PCs doesn't mean always he's sexist in some way.  It could mean that he thinks by being nice it increases his chances of getting some.

What we need are more female characters fawning over men and giving them nice gifts (and men who don't take a hit on their ego when this happens).

[flurry]

Whoring is a legitimate profession on Zalanthas.  Calling someone a whore shouldn't be an insult.

It's a legal profession, but does that mean it's respected?

[Shoka Windrunner]

Whoring is a legitimate profession on Zalanthas.  Calling someone a whore shouldn't be an insult.

It's a legal profession, but does that mean it's respected?

Only if you want a discount.

[Marauder Moe]

Whoring is a legitimate profession on Zalanthas.  Calling someone a whore shouldn't be an insult.

It's a legal profession, but does that mean it's respected?

Like most professions, there are degrees of respectability.  Also, like most professions, there are other names for different degrees.

whore, prostitute, concubine
thug, mercenary, guard, soldier
lackey, assistant, aide, adviser

Calling someone a concubine would never be any more insulting than calling someone a soldier.  In fact, it could be a compliment.  Calling someone a whore who is clearly on a higher social level, though, might be insulting.  Just like calling someone of a higher social level a thug or lackey.

In short, it's not the sexual services profession that makes the term "whore" insulting, it's the implication of being low-class.

[musashi]

In short, it's not the sexual services profession that makes the term "whore" insulting, it's the implication of being low-class.

QFT