Sexism and Whoring in Zalanthas

[mansa]

That just creates new gender roles, specific to Armageddon. 50/50 is just fine for enforcing the concept of no gender roles.

I disagree with that idea.  I believe players will come into the game with some preconceived notion of sexism and players need to be beaten in the head over and over again until they understand that the game is a different culture than North America.  Over-examples and exaggerations will help combat the standard fantasy setting.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I've certainly asked more than one pretty character - male OR female - if they're a whore, if my character is the type interested in buying sex.

Was I doing this to be insulting? 

No.  Not at all.  It follows logically that if you're attractive with unblemished skin and well-cared-for hair, you're not doing a lot of hard physical labor.  It also follows that if you're attractive and clean and well-kept, my character might want to have sex with yours.  If my character's the kind that doesn't mind paying for sex, well, he might see what kind of investment it would take to try a piece of what your character may or may not be offering.

What bugs me is when people act insulted about it. 

My character spots Attractive F-Me-Type Character (male or female). 
Me: 'Do you whore?' 
AFMTC: 'Are you calling me a whore?!' 
Me: 'Uh... no.  I was asking you how much.  If you don't sell.. that's ok too.  But I've got a lot of money so if you're ever interested... '
AFMTC: 'I'd never do that!' 
AFMTC storms off in a huff and/or threatens to beat my character up.

To me, that kind of reaction perpetrates the stereotypical-type situation a lot more than my character asking an attractive character if they sell sex.

[Tisiphone]

Most of my characters are whores-of-opportunity. I believe this was more than a year ago, but I remember playing a dwarven female who got a few extra 'sids because she had huge knockers.

[touringCompl3t3]

I've certainly asked more than one pretty character - male OR female - if they're a whore, if my character is the type interested in buying sex.

Was I doing this to be insulting? 

No.  Not at all.  It follows logically that if you're attractive with unblemished skin and well-cared-for hair, you're not doing a lot of hard physical labor.  It also follows that if you're attractive and clean and well-kept, my character might want to have sex with yours.  If my character's the kind that doesn't mind paying for sex, well, he might see what kind of investment it would take to try a piece of what your character may or may not be offering.

What bugs me is when people act insulted about it. 

My character spots Attractive F-Me-Type Character (male or female). 
Me: 'Do you whore?' 
AFMTC: 'Are you calling me a whore?!' 
Me: 'Uh... no.  I was asking you how much.  If you don't sell.. that's ok too.  But I've got a lot of money so if you're ever interested... '
AFMTC: 'I'd never do that!' 
AFMTC storms off in a huff and/or threatens to beat my character up.

To me, that kind of reaction perpetrates the stereotypical-type situation a lot more than my character asking an attractive character if they sell sex.

Yeah, I agree.  But I think this is related to an idea that your average player is uncomfortable with sex.  Personally, I don't think this is a fixable problem -- we can't replace all of the (imperfect human) players who are uncomfortable with sex with a set of (less imperfect) players who are more comfortable with sex.

It's a shame, but it's really a maturity issue.  Personally, I've gotten used to it and my response is to avoid sexual role play and try to leave sex out of the game.

Then again, if you are able to have fun with your character's sexuality, my hat is off to you. 

[Ourla]

But I think this is related to an idea that your average player is uncomfortable with sex.

This is not my impression. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah, I agree.  But I think this is related to an idea that your average player is uncomfortable with sex.

Are you kidding me? That is certainly not the issue. It's simply a carryover from real-life people thinking that being a whore is degrading. Which if you're a woman, it usually is.

[Lizzie]

I think it's a matter of semantics. The word "prostitute" has an almost neutral (almost) connotation attached to it. The word "whore" is -intended- to be used as a slur. Now, maybe that isn't the original function of the word, I won't bother looking up its history. But it is certainly how it is now. When "polite company" is talking about women selling their bodies, they refer to those women as prostitutes. Or call girls. Or paid escorts (nudge nudge wink wink). When polite company wants to express disgust, or a sense of superiority, or otherwise give insult to those prostitutes, they will call them whores. They'll call them that, while sneering, or narrowing their eyes, or some other physical facial expression showing their disgust or sense of superiority or intention to insult.

In Zalanthas, a *concubine* is considered a worthy profession, and in fact is higher "ranking" than other commoners. Becoming a noble's concubine, would be considered an enormous boon to anyone lucky enough to show talent. But then, a concubine isn't someone who sells her sexual body to whoever has the sids to pay for it.

Just like the Legion, or the Militia, might look down on an independent mercenary as inferior, a concubine might look down on an independent sex-seller as inferior. Or a Salarr armorsmith looks down on some guy who makes mek-hide cuirasses all day.

A "whore" IS lower-class, and calling someone a whore SHOULD be considered an insult. A whore would be the independent, who might never be worthy of being one of the well-trained, clean, and talented Kuraci prostitutes, and is likely to never be fit to step in the shadow of a noble's concubine.

It's still a perfectly acceptable profession - but it is the profession of the lowest commoners - the ones who can't do any better, who can't afford to be picky.

That's how I see the use of the word.

[musashi]

That's about how I envision it too so ... you know, +1 to what Lizzie said.

[RogueGunslinger]

The thing is, many people say whore with out it being an insult. So if you wan't your character to take it that way, then go ahead. But my characters won't. It's simply a matter of how you want to react in any given situation, and what your characters thoughts on the word is, not your own.

[touringCompl3t3]

Hey, you guys have good points.

Personally, I don't think the word "whore" should be allowed in game......not from the standpoint that the staff should ban it but it really has no place in the zalanthan vocabulary. 

If I play a prostitute, I'm going to call myself a "pleasure servant".  It conjures a much more friendly picture.

I think if someone comes up to me and introduces themselves as a whore, I'm going to respond,

"A whore, eh?  Is that like a pleasure attendant?  How nice!  I'll have to catch up with you again on payday!"

[touringCompl3t3]

Another thing I find implausible is the idea of the "Rinth Whore."  I find it unlikely that someone would pay a 'Rinther for sex.

I find it easier to imagine that an Atrium Graduate would have the job of pleasure servant -- somebody trained to be pleasant, attractive and attentive.  Prostitution is not a job of last resort, according to the docs.  It's desirable, well-paying employment.  At the least, a prostitute would have to be healthy, well-bathed and attractive, something which is a noble ambition that most Zalanthans might envy. 

I think some players have trouble wrapping their mind around the fact that a Zalanthan pleasure servant is the social equivalent of a doctor or a lawyer.  A Bynner, for example probably would talk up to a prostitute, rather than talking down to one. 

Maybe if players could imagine that a Zalanthan pleasure service is not very much different from getting a real life spa treatment?

Oh well, just my thoughts. 

[musashi]

I think it's already been stated that the job exists in different levels of society.

So, as a loose example ... a whore is a 'Rinther that other 'rinthi folk spice up for filthy garbage sex.
... a pleasure servant is someone who enslaves themself to a noble to live a really posh life style from now until they get old.

They're both, basically offering the same service, but they're operating in very different circles.

[Tisiphone]

'rinthis might pay 'rinthis for sex, but they're much more likely to indulge in rape or sexual subjection - sex for protection, sex for power, sex for security, sex for not getting carved from neck to spleen.

[RogueGunslinger]

Personally, I don't think the word "whore" should be allowed in game......not from the standpoint that the staff should ban it but it really has no place in the zalanthan vocabulary. 

If I play a prostitute, I'm going to call myself a "pleasure servant".  It conjures a much more friendly picture.

I disagree with this completely. I don't want Zalanthas being filled with words that invoke a 'friendly picture' It's supposed to be harsh, gritty, brutal. I think the language should be as such, too.

Pleasure servant might be what a noble calls his concubine, but I swear if I hear those words from the average 'rinthi Bynner I might blow a gasket.

[Barzalene]

'rinthis might pay 'rinthis for sex, but they're much more likely to indulge in rape or sexual subjection - sex for protection, sex for power, sex for security, sex for not getting carved from neck to spleen.

See, what I don't understand is, how is that not degrading. I'm trying to let go of my 20th century morality, but ... the above doesn't sound perfectly delightful and respectable.

[Tisiphone]

'rinthis might pay 'rinthis for sex, but they're much more likely to indulge in rape or sexual subjection - sex for protection, sex for power, sex for security, sex for not getting carved from neck to spleen.

See, what I don't understand is, how is that not degrading. I'm trying to let go of my 20th century morality, but ... the above doesn't sound perfectly delightful and respectable.

That -is- degrading. But that's the 'rinth.

[Ourla]

'rinthis might pay 'rinthis for sex, but they're much more likely to indulge in rape or sexual subjection - sex for protection, sex for power, sex for security, sex for not getting carved from neck to spleen.

See, what I don't understand is, how is that not degrading. I'm trying to let go of my 20th century morality, but ... the above doesn't sound perfectly delightful and respectable.

That -is- degrading. But that's the 'rinth.

The way I see it, living a life like Tisiphone mentioned in the 'Rinth would not be, to a 'Rinthi, anything at all out of the ordinary.  I haven't played in the 'Rinth, but from what I can see, it's a dog eat dog world in there.  If you have something you can sell, you sell it.  It's what everyone does, and therefore, nothing out of the ordinary. 

No citizen of the Labyrinth would think a woman or man selling sex was degrading because they see it all the time, like we see people standing on street corners holding signs to advertise furniture sales, or hot dog-stand employees.  They have a service that people want.  It's common-place business, maybe even bringing in a somewhat-attractive praticer more sid than your average corpse-grebber or pickpocket.

I believe this casual attitude toward sex extends beyond the 'Rinth into most of Zalanthan culture.  When I see players disregarding it ICly, I try not to let it ruffle my feathers too much.  They just have a bit more learning to do.

[Barzalene]

The way I see it, living a life like Tisiphone mentioned in the 'Rinth would not be, to a 'Rinthi, anything at all out of the ordinary.  I haven't played in the 'Rinth, but from what I can see, it's a dog eat dog world in there.  If you have something you can sell, you sell it.  It's what everyone does, and therefore, nothing out of the ordinary. 

No citizen of the Labyrinth would think a woman or man selling sex was degrading because they see it all the time, like we see people standing on street corners holding signs to advertise furniture sales, or hot dog-stand employees.  They have a service that people want.  It's common-place business, maybe even bringing in a somewhat-attractive praticer more sid than your average corpse-grebber or pickpocket.

I believe this casual attitude toward sex extends beyond the 'Rinth into most of Zalanthan culture.  When I see players disregarding it ICly, I try not to let it ruffle my feathers too much.  They just have a bit more learning to do.

I'm torn.

I completely agree that having different values on Zalanthas makes it far more intriguing and fleshed out than just bringing all of our personal mores and baggage to the game. I'm definitely right there with all of you on that.

The other side of it is, part of the great fun of the game is that so many live in shit. But if your pc isn't cognizant of the fact that they live in shit, then it's less shitty. Know what I mean?

[Tisiphone]

I tend to disagree with you, Ourla, specifically about the 'rinth.

Giving away sex freely or for payment, by your own choice, is one thing.

Being forced into it by threat of death/rape/dismemberment is quite another.

[Greymalkin]

I have to admit, I'm a little afraid of facing a firing squad for posting my opinion on the matter -- and I freely admit it is simply that, an opinion -- but here goes.

I can see a woman (or man, for the sake of argument) being offended when asked if they're a prostitute.  It is a bona fine profession, yes, fair enough -- wholly accepted by the mass.  But there will still be a stigma attached to this line of work, no different than the stigma associated with being, say, a basket weaver (lowly commoner craftsman, rude and slovenly mercenary - they all come equipped with stereotypes, whores being no exception).  There is also the idea of objectification.  Whether a common street whore or an elite courtesan, people would likely perceive either of the two as more of an object designed for sexual gratification than a respected "craftsman".  They offer a service, true: a service designed for you, the client, to use them physically.  I don't see the same sort of objectification entering into the picture if I hire, say, a tailor to mend my clothing.  None of this is me suggesting that I think the term whore is an acceptable derogatory term in Zalanthas.  But for all of the reasons stated above, I can see someone as being offended if they're asked if they are a whore, yes, for the same reason a merchant house agent might get offended if asked if he's a mercenary.

On a slightly unrelated note, I think the wonderful thing about ArmageddonMUD is the abundance of beliefs and customs which exist throughout.  One culture's taboo is another culture's regular practice.  In the days of the ancient Celts of the British Isles (and many other cultures) virgin women were perceived as possessing mystical properties.  They were revered in a sense.  That's a notion which could, arguably, exist in some areas of the game.  I'm not certain I like the approach I sense here on the GDB about sex being this all out free-for-all, sleep with anyone and anything just because that's Zalanthas, with no regard for the foundation of a family and that you, the player, had better accept this and expect to get laughed at for having a mate for life.

On an even less related note, and just for the sake of nitpicking, I've seen people argue that homosexuality was accepted in cultures like Ancient Greece and that's why it's accepted in game.  It's accepted for OOC purposes.  Stating Ancient Greeks operated this way is a misinterpretation of history.  True, the Ancient Greeks didn't bat an eye at bisexuality, but homosexuality (that is, sleeping with the same sex exclusively) was actually quite frowned upon.  I'm saying this because I think all too often posters here get overly fixated on the documentation regarding sex when the vast majority of it is there for OOC purposes and not meant to be reflected on culturally.

[Tisiphone]

I could also see 'whore' used as an insult, not so much because you're a prostitute, but because the word implies that you're a low class prostitute. You're not a courtesan or a concubine, you're a streetwalker.

[LoD]

I could also see 'whore' used as an insult, not so much because you're a prostitute, but because the word implies that you're a low class prostitute. You're not a courtesan or a concubine, you're a streetwalker.

I would agree that the insult inherent in a word like "whore" lay within its implication that you are a low class, street walking seller of carnal pleasure -- which is very likely cheap, unclean, and potentially dangerous.

Other words may very well describe a person that sells themselves, but the connotation associated with those words implies a different relationship.  Escorts, courtesans, concubines, they share a common element but are dressed and presented differently.  Since many of these terms are acceptable within Zalanthas, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing keeping the current connotations associated with the words to cut down on the amount of new words or vocabulary players need to learn.

What should be recognized though is that the business of selling sex in Zalanthas would likely not grate upon the moral fabric of society nearly as much as we might think it does on our own.  Most of us don't live in neighborhoods like those represented in Zalanthas, and we might have very different opinions of each of these positions if we did.  However, since we already have defined words that carry with them a variety of connotations dependent upon the relationship a prostitute holds with their customers, their environment, and themselves, we may as well not try to reinvent the wheel or hinder it from spinning.

-LoD

[Barzalene]

I have to admit, I'm a little afraid of facing a firing squad for posting my opinion on the matter -- and I freely admit it is simply that, an opinion -- but here goes.

I can see a woman (or man, for the sake of argument) being offended when asked if they're a prostitute.  It is a bona fine profession, yes, fair enough -- wholly accepted by the mass.  But there will still be a stigma attached to this line of work, no different than the stigma associated with being, say, a basket weaver (lowly commoner craftsman, rude and slovenly mercenary - they all come equipped with stereotypes, whores being no exception).  There is also the idea of objectification.  Whether a common street whore or an elite courtesan, people would likely perceive either of the two as more of an object designed for sexual gratification than a respected "craftsman".  They offer a service, true: a service designed for you, the client, to use them physically.  I don't see the same sort of objectification entering into the picture if I hire, say, a tailor to mend my clothing.  None of this is me suggesting that I think the term whore is an acceptable derogatory term in Zalanthas.  But for all of the reasons stated above, I can see someone as being offended if they're asked if they are a whore, yes, for the same reason a merchant house agent might get offended if asked if he's a mercenary.

On a slightly unrelated note, I think the wonderful thing about ArmageddonMUD is the abundance of beliefs and customs which exist throughout.  One culture's taboo is another culture's regular practice.  In the days of the ancient Celts of the British Isles (and many other cultures) virgin women were perceived as possessing mystical properties.  They were revered in a sense.  That's a notion which could, arguably, exist in some areas of the game.  I'm not certain I like the approach I sense here on the GDB about sex being this all out free-for-all, sleep with anyone and anything just because that's Zalanthas, with no regard for the foundation of a family and that you, the player, had better accept this and expect to get laughed at for having a mate for life.

On an even less related note, and just for the sake of nitpicking, I've seen people argue that homosexuality was accepted in cultures like Ancient Greece and that's why it's accepted in game.  It's accepted for OOC purposes.  Stating Ancient Greeks operated this way is a misinterpretation of history.  True, the Ancient Greeks didn't bat an eye at bisexuality, but homosexuality (that is, sleeping with the same sex exclusively) was actually quite frowned upon.  I'm saying this because I think all too often posters here get overly fixated on the documentation regarding sex when the vast majority of it is there for OOC purposes and not meant to be reflected on culturally.

Greymalken states very cogently what I wanted to say.
I think that neither the idea of a great and extended mating of many and the life long mating of two should be considered exceptional.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not certain I like the approach I sense here on the GDB about sex being this all out free-for-all, sleep with anyone and anything just because that's Zalanthas, with no regard for the foundation of a family and that you, the player, had better accept this and expect to get laughed at for having a mate for life.

I hardly see this in any of the posts I've seen, not even if taken out of context. And it's definitely not like that in game. I've witnessed plenty of long lasting(until character death) relationships that were well portrayed on either side.

[a strange shadow]

You know you've got a unique situation in PC Zalanthas when you have several ex-partners... who are still alive.

The offensiveness of whore depends on the context and who it's directed at. Greymalkin said it.