Sapping animals

[Mood]

My feeling is that if the staff didn't want you to backstab/sap animals, the abilities wouldn't work on them.

[musashi]

While I also agree that sapping animals, if done in a tasteful manner RP-wise, is completely fine (having come around through the course of this thread) ... I do disagree a bit with the

My feeling is that if the staff didn't want you to backstab/sap animals, the abilities wouldn't work on them.

thing. There is a lot in the game that the code might let you do, but isn't really kosher. So it's good to bring it up for discussion.

Also, for the record, despite my best efforts at combing through google, I have not been able to find any citeable example of people ever actually preferring to knock an animal out instead of just killing it with the blunt object they're hunting with. All the examples listed to date (just two I belive, seal clubbing and shooting blunt arrows at squirrels) were designed to kill the creatures in the single blow, not knock them out. It just so happens the tools used were blunt. Although ... I did find an interesting random fact about dolphins ...

While hunting for food underwater, some dolphins also make very loud clicking sounds that may knock out any small fish or squid within range. The dolphins then gobble up the sound-stunned prey.

Link: http://www.wspa-usa.org/pages/2222_dolphin_facts_for_kids.cfm

Can someone find a good example of hunters aiming to knock an animal out with a blunt object at some point in history? It would probably seal the debate on this whole thread up nice and tidy.

[X-D]

Think outside the box man.

No really. True, the desire when hunting is to kill the animal. And using a blunt weapon IRL you want to kill the animal. But why use the blunt weapon over the pointy one? Aside from not doing as much damage to the pelt, the blunt weapon also has a far greater chance to stun or knockout the animal so you can then kill it.   Which is what you would be doing IG with sap while hunting anyway.

To give an example IRL. In the spring before planting season farmers have to go out and get the equipment ready. Now this means clearing things like the planter of vermin. Normaly mice. Now there are many ways you could kill mice of course, but the most common way if your a farmer is to have somebody stand by near the planters outlet tubes while you open the top. the person by the tubes does a merry dance stomping on the hundreds of mice (at least it feels like hundreds) That come pooring out the tubes while the one at the top grabs them from the bin by the tails 1, 2 or more at a time and slaps the heads against the steel and drops them while reaching for more. This is blunt force trauma, normaly killing the mouse outright but if not stunning it long enough for the stomper to get to it. ALSO, look up deep sea fishing or shark fishing. Larger more dangerouse fish once on the gaf are normaly thumped on the head to knock them out or stun them long enough to get on the boat without risk to the people bringing it aboard.

[musashi]

So, can you give me a link for that or? I looked up a couple pages on shark fishing and deep sea fishing but it didn't really go into how to do it (except some vauge references to very big nets). And as I said, and as some other folks said, I don't really have a problem with people sapping animals, but the point that I belive was posed (by Spoon IIRC)

Ok... using clubbing seals or other animals isn't a very good example. That's a hunter beating an animal to death with a club.

kill baby seal

That's all that is. With a club.

Is that according to the help file on sap, it involves using stealth

This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly on the head, with the intent of knocking them out.

And with the intent of knocking them out, rather than the intent of killing them, but generally alright with knocking them out if they can't be killed in one shot anyhow. The code sort of already accomadates that by typing 'wield club' followed by 'kill critter' and hoping your savvy enough to score a critical hit yes?

The whole stealth aspect of sneaking up on an animal to whack them in the back of the head may be a soley Zalanthian thing, instead of a RL thing, I think that's the only counter-point to be made.

[X-D]

Looking up some things can be a pain in the ass, and I'm far from the find stuff on the internet master like some others are. Though, I'd bet you might have better luck on something like youtube where you can just search through some videos...keep in mind you will likley want to be looking at the sport side and not the commercial side...though I believe even on the commercial side it is common practice to club netted sharks and even barracuda before dumping them back into the sea.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

If Hunter Joe wants to sneak up on DoomGoudra and club him over the head so that his valuable hide isn't ruined, I say more power to him.  Same thing with DoomCarru, DoomBahamet, whatever.  Why does it matter whether it's realistic, whether it's done by Modern Day Hunters, whether people in Ancient Sumeria would club elk over the head or not?  It's a fantasy game, guys.  I don't see how it really equates.

Do I think you should try and sap a gelatinous cube?  Of course not.  Some common sense is required.  But if you've got the RP for it, if the code supports it, and if the staffers don't tell you you're a putz for doing it, I think it's safe to assume that you can go to town.

[musashi]

Whoa dude ... you were right Right at about a minute and 35 seconds he just clubs the thing. It doesn't pass though, and it's not very stealthy ... but ... wow, it's cool to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvkos_ly-ME

[Spoon]

How many hunters do you know, personally, irl?

You'd better be taking the piss.

[Sokotra]

I have not been able to find any citeable example of people ever actually preferring to knock an animal out instead of just killing it with the blunt object they're hunting with.

Hmm.. to me it is basically the same thing.  If you happen to be good at hitting things from behind at the right spot on the head to do more damage or to simply daze it or knock it out, then why wouldn't someone do that?  That is perfectly realistic and this thread is just kinda silly, it seems to me.  Wouldn't it make sense that you are probably going to kill something faster if you can hit it on the back of the head and knock it out or daze it or whatever?  Then you'd just have to hit it a couple more times on the head to make sure it is dead, or just skin the thing alive (if it is completely unconscious) so you don't cause anymore damage to the hide or skull or whatever you are trying to harvest from the thing.

So basically, you are trying to kill the thing faster if you prefer hitting it on the back of the head and knock it out.  The end.

[musashi]

I have not been able to find any citeable example of people ever actually preferring to knock an animal out instead of just killing it with the blunt object they're hunting with.

Hmm.. to me it is basically the same thing.  If you happen to be good at hitting things from behind at the right spot on the head to do more damage or to simply daze it or knock it out, then why wouldn't someone do that?  That is perfectly realistic and this thread is just kinda silly, it seems to me.  Wouldn't it make sense that you are probably going to kill something faster if you can hit it on the back of the head and knock it out or daze it or whatever?  Then you'd just have to hit it a couple more times on the head to make sure it is dead, or just skin the thing alive (if it is completely unconscious) so you don't cause anymore damage to the hide or skull or whatever you are trying to harvest from the thing.

So basically, you are trying to kill the thing faster if you prefer hitting it on the back of the head and knock it out.  The end.

Well again, I don't have a problem with it. I'm just saying that I haven't found any examples of where the "stealth" part of it came in IRL hunting, and to me, the sneaky stealth part is what makes it a sap instead of a "wield club and kill this thing". So as long as the sneaky part is being portrayed in said hunter's RP, I would be a-ok. I can't find any references where hunters have ever used a "sneak up and knock them out with a blunt object" technique IRL, but maybe I just haven't been lucky with the ole google engine, or even if there are no examples in RL, hey, it's Armageddon. Different hunting styles FTW.

However, if for example, someone just walked up to my character in the middle of the wilderness without emoting at all, or without any kind of sneaky type RP attempt (semotes, sneaking and hiding, ect) ... and they just typed "sap musashi" then later said: well it isn't a sneaky skill, it's just my character being naturally better at hitting people in the head!

I have to agree, I play sap as just trying to get a damn good blow on someone's head with the chance and hope of knocking them out. 

Brandon

I would be a little mad ... and I would point them to the help file where it says: This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly on the head ... ... you know, provided I lived through it.

That's all.

[Tisiphone]

...whether people in Ancient Sumeria would club elk over the head or not?

I can be rather certain that Sumerians did not club elk.

In Real Life, people use pointy things like spears on the larger animals, because they work. People do not club carru.

That said, if you want to be silly enough to try to sap one, be my guest. There's nothing saying people don't behave stupidly, after all.

[musashi]

People do not club carru.

That said, if you want to be silly enough to try to sap one, be my guest. There's nothing saying people don't behave stupidly, after all.

Half-giants might though  Of course, I haven't seen too many sneaky half-giants but I'm sure they're out there, hiding in the very, very big shadows.

[psionic fungus]

And with the intent of knocking them out, rather than the intent of killing them, but generally alright with knocking them out if they can't be killed in one shot anyhow. The code sort of already accomadates that by typing 'wield club' followed by 'kill critter' and hoping your savvy enough to score a critical hit yes?

The whole stealth aspect of sneaking up on an animal to whack them in the back of the head may be a soley Zalanthian thing, instead of a RL thing, I think that's the only counter-point to be made.

The code does not accommodate "this".  You cannot attempt to one-hit kill an animal by bludgeoning its head with the code, because you cannot direct your blow.  The only way to represent this type of action in the game is to use the "sap" code.  I have outlined my preferred method of surprise attacks, and how that would change this elsewhere, but for the time being "sap" is what we have to use.

I'm just saying that I haven't found any examples of where the "stealth" part of it came in IRL hunting, and to me, the sneaky stealth part is what makes it a sap instead of a "wield club and kill this thing".

I don't really see how you expect to get close enough to an animal to bludgeon it to death with a single blow without being at least slightly stealthy.  Unless they are slow, snared, or trapped... Which most commonly clubbed game animals are.

As for finding examples... You see people clubbing game the same places you see children bringing dead rats home for dinner.  Clubs are not what big game hunters with video cameras utilize... Even the use of clubs in trapping isn't something anyone is going to document or glorify.  It's just a quick and easy way to dispatch wounded prey without damaging the pelt...

Everyone should witness some native tribal hunting techniques where they circle around a large area of the forest in groups of two -with nets, clubs, and spears- and then slowly move towards a central point, driving all the animals into a small kill-zone, where there is an orgy of blood and death... It's really intense to watch.

Finally, I have to say, that I hope 2.Arm introduces called shots and critical strikes so players can appropriately club animals in the head whether hidden, sneaking, or being utterly obvious...

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I can be rather certain that Sumerians did not club elk.

That was rather the point 

[Shoka Windrunner]

I've seen someone knock a sow unconcious with one hit from a shovel.

Pigs have extremely hard heads.

So yeah, if I'm facing something, and I think I can smack them in the head and knock them out or stun them, you better believe that I will.

[Riev]

How the crap is this thread still going on? I think we've determined its both codedly possible, and can be done ICly no matter what. Go ahead, sap a bahamet. If you think you can do it, do it.

Thats pretty much the end of the discussion. Codedly possible, if your character has a reason to attempt it, there is no reason not to.

[sprucebark]

I'd sap a goudra because it has a nice soft pretty hide I can snuggle in and riding out on
my sunback to slash it with a sword, parry its claws, and block its teeth with my shield
isn't really "hunting".  If I'm knocking it out with a few blows and you're slashing the
Krath out of it with a triple-bladed obsidian boondoggler, someone is hunting and someone
is using the code....maybe confetti goudra should leave no hide for the real hunters.

Sorry for the late post but I'm posting anyway.

[spawnloser]

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

My friend Sally's father, a farmer, punched a cow and knocked it out when he was going to slaughter it.  Good enough?

[manonfire]

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

My friend Sally's father, a farmer, punched a cow and knocked it out when he was going to slaughter it.  Good enough?

shens

[Spoon]

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

My friend Sally's father, a farmer, punched a cow and knocked it out when he was going to slaughter it.  Good enough?

Definitely good. Though it was a domestic animal and so wasn't hunted as such.

As for this discussion, I don't have a huge problem with people using sap on animals, and they're going to do it anyway. What makes me sad is the greatest kidnapper in the known world will have spent his whole life sapping tregils.

[Yam]

Tregils are a lot like children.

Little, furry children.

[Maso]

In China (and probably other countries without animal rights laws) the animals that they plan on skinning they simply knock out. Though usually this is done to captive animals by picking them up by their legs and smacking them against the ground or hitting them over the head with clubs. They don't actually care whether or not they kill the animal so long as it is stunned enough to be skinned. Yes, they skin them alive. If you need video proof, I have a link but it's not a pretty sight (am doing an anti-fur campaign for Uni).

People do 'sap' animals. ESPECIALLY if they want their fur as this doesn't damage the skin. Sometimes it kills the animal yes, but whether or not the result is death is not an issue to these hunters. They just want the animal to stay still(ish).

[X-D]

BTW, Tregil are hairless.

[psionic fungus]

And yet supple tregil -hide- is used for many luxurious leather goods.

So... You still don't want to damage it.

*sigh*

[Tisiphone]

And yet supple tregil -hide- is used for many luxurious leather goods.

So... You still don't want to damage it.

I got the feeling this:

BTW, Tregil are hairless.

was more in response to this:

Tregils are a lot like children.

Little, furry children. (emphasis added)

than this:

...ESPECIALLY if they want their fur as this doesn't damage the skin. (emphasis added)