Sapping animals

[RogueGunslinger]

I have a problem with calling things primitive just because they are made out of different material than metal. That's why I changed your post.

Zalanthas isn't primitive. Not in my eyes at least.

Edited to add:

Primitive
    * crude: belonging to an early stage of technical development; characterized by simplicity and (often) crudeness; "the crude weapons and rude ...
    * a person who belongs to an early stage of civilization
    * archaic: little evolved from or characteristic of an earlier ancestral type; "archaic forms of life"; "primitive mammals"; "the okapi is a short-necked primitive cousin of the giraffe"

Some weapons on zalanthas may be 'crude' but not all of them. Also, I don't believe we are in the early stage of civilization.

It' a pet peeve of mine; people calling things in zalanthas primitive.

[psionic fungus]

I just feel like going out there and walking around, killing anything you come across to skin it and try to sell its hide back in town isn't hunting, it's mob bashing for coins and skill gain, and I don't see many people even trying to throw more than an emote or two out there the entire time they're doing it. It's just kind of a "run out at dawn and kill kill kill ... run back in at dusk and save the RP for the tavern". Well, that's how it looks to me anyway.

Just to be absolutely clear... This type of behavior is bad.

Sapping animals is not necessarily this type of behavior.

I see it as a skill to be used against humanoid-folk...

Well... Correct your misconception and play on, man!

[musashi]

Already corrected Thanks.

[Spoon]

Ok... using clubbing seals or other animals isn't a very good example. That's a hunter beating an animal to death with a club.

kill baby seal

That's all that is. With a club.

[musashi]

Ok... using clubbing seals or other animals isn't a very good example. That's a hunter beating an animal to death with a club.

kill baby seal

That's all that is. With a club.

*chuckle* and ... QFT

[psionic fungus]

Ok... using clubbing seals or other animals isn't a very good example. That's a hunter beating an animal to death with a club.

kill baby seal

That's all that is. With a club.

Have you ever clubbed a seal (or any other animal, which trappers do regularly)?

Have you ever sapped someone?

On what basis are you placing your assertion?

This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly on the head, with the intent of knocking them out.

Do you see how this description suits sneaking up on a goudra and clubbing it in the head perfectly?

Clubbing a baby seal does not involve melee combat, like it might with an adult elephant seal.  This -is- a situation where the victim is stealthily (as much as needed) approached and then quickly dispatched with a single blow to the head... In other words, a sapping.

Do you realize that there are reasons why cows are (were) routinely slaughtered by blunt blows to the head, that trappers routinely club their victims (to keep pelts and meat in good condition), that sneaking up and hitting an animal on the head is not a whole lot different from doing it to a person, and that it is an effective and utilized hunting method IRL?

[musashi]

I think what they meant to imply is that sapping's goal is the render the sappiee knocked out. Clubbing a seal is meant to crack its head open, squish its brain, and render it dead. I believe a lot of seal trappers us something called a hakapik for this purpose, and it has a hook or spike on it to assist in the killing part.

EDIT: I'm so sorry ... I have to do this.

[Riev]

The idea of sapping an animal in Zalanthas, I should think, is still with the purpose of knocking them out, but once they are knocked out, you get free hits to the head or neck since they aren't moving, and thus saving the pelt.

Just because the idea of sapping a humanoid is to knock them out to get past guards, or to kidnap someone, doesn't mean it also isn't so you can kill them with relatively no RP. Subdue>Kill anyone?

[psionic fungus]

Yes...

Hopefully this will be resolved in future versions of the game by combining sap and backstab into a more generic ability for striking from a "hidden" position.

Code Select Expand


>hide (slowing ^me approach) [ducking behind a long, low drift of snow]

You notice: Slowing his approach, the tall, muscular man hides, ducking behind a long, low drift of snow.

>hit seal's head (suddenly lunging from behind a snow drift) [viciously bringing ^me ~hakapik down]

Suddenly lunging from behind a snow drift, the tall, muscular man saps a cute baby seal's head, viciously bringing his bone-hooked hakapik down, doing incredible damage!

A cute baby seal's eyes roll back in its head.


That's how it should be done.

It's perfectly in character and reasonable to attempt to hit a game animal on the head to knock it out and/or kill it.

The code is not perfect, unfortunately.

[musashi]

Hopefully this will be resolved in future versions of the game by combining sap and backstab into a more generic ability for striking from a "hidden" position.

If those two abilities are bled together into a generic "increased damage when striking from a hidden position" type skill, wouldn't that make it difficult (codewise I mean) to try and sap someone with the intent of /just/ knocking them out, instead of killing them?

I thought the purpose of backstab and sap being different was to distinguish the ability to take a live captive, or kill a dead mark.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I thought the purpose of backstab and sap being different was to distinguish the ability to take a live captive, or kill a dead mark.

I think the differentiation would occur between when you're using an edged weapon, and when you're using a blunt weapon.

[musashi]

Ah! No worries then.

[Maso]

And also sap would be far more effective on an animal than a backstab.

[psionic fungus]

Actually, since there would be no real difference between the two command wise....

Hit Location and Weapon Type would be the most important thing to consider when attacking Animals or Humanoids...

[musashi]

Well, I think the whole idea of a "backstab" is a little off to begin with. Could just be a long standing tradition that started way back in the day when writers of first edition D&D gave it to the thief class as a special ability.

But in the real world, stabbing someone in their back in generally not the most effective way to kill them in a quick fashion ... esp not the most effective way to kill them without having them make a sound. Neither is slitting their throat.

In the higher levels of the Marine Corps martial arts program dealing with knife techniques, all my instructors taught us to to stab the blade of the knife into the little concave part at the base of a human skull, upwards at maybe a 45 degree angle. It jacks up the part of the brain that handles body control and basically severs the link between brain and spine, so they just drop like a rag doll and can't scream because they can't work their vocal cords.

/derail

I'm not sure how effective just clubbing someone in the head real hard would be when it comes to knocking them out (Well, I'm sure it very well could knock them out, but what I mean is that I think the odds are real high you'll likely just kill them too, hitting people in the temple is really dangerous). The movies show people doing it all the time, but I was always taught that the quickest way to make someone pass out (without running that risk of them dieing) was with a blood choke (squeezing the neck so as to cut the blood off from the head) but even that takes 5 - 10 seconds IIRC.

[Maso]

Well, essentially a backstab is just a stab from behind after sneaking up. This could be into the concave at the base of the skull.

[musashi]

Could be yes.

I always imagined it looking something like

[RogueGunslinger]

help backstab
Skill Backstab                                                     (Combat)

   This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent.
The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the
attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully
backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will
be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's
backstab skill level.

[amish overlord]

Might also use sap to capture cuddly critters to sell as pets to nobles, rich merchants, etc! I one time sap'd with a big staff a gurth. I see no big deal, smacking something upside the head.

Amish Overlord 

[musashi]

Might also use sap to capture cuddly critters to sell as pets to nobles, rich merchants, etc! I one time sap'd with a big staff a gurth. I see no big deal, smacking something upside the head.

Amish Overlord 

Another twist to the discussion ... that's not a bad angle at all.

And thanks RGS.

[Spoon]

I didn't say I mind people using sap on animals in my first post, but since we've now been flooded with crap reasons for clubbing animals:

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

Clubbing seals does not involve stealth. It involves stamping up to an obviously helpless animal and whacking it to death so you don't damage the fur.

Have you ever clubbed a seal (or any other animal, which trappers do regularly)?

Have you ever sapped someone?

On what basis are you placing your assertion?

This a trick question?

[psionic fungus]

They're all tricks.  We're all out to get one-another.   

My point is that clubbing animals is an effective form of hunting.  Doing so when the victim is unsuspecting is obviously the easiest and quickest method.  A hunter is effectively "hidden" from a baby seal because the baby seal is unaware of the hunter.

If you want another example, I just read an article in National Geographic about -chimps- dropping from branches and using rocks to bludgeon deer in the head...  I'm pretty sure people have used similar methods.  Many game animals are not simply going to stand around letting you hit them with a club, you have to sneak up and make the first hit count, or else they're going to get away.  There is a definite reason that "sapping" animals is reserved for small game, and it is probably mostly utilized where large game is not available.  In my anthropology class most of the hunting we observed utilized poisons, with a fair amount of net/snare + club techniques...  I imagine this is because small game is pointless to hunt (in lush forests), and both poisons and nets/snares effectively immobilize larger prey.

Seriously... If I were hunting nutria I would "sneak" up to one at the edge of a group and kill it with a single strike.  The is represented in the game by either "sap" or "backstab".  I could easily use a spear or a club to do this, but the club would keep both the meat and the hide in better shape.

Sapping game animals makes sense.

As for this:

I'm not sure how effective just clubbing someone in the head real hard would be when it comes to knocking them out (Well, I'm sure it very well could knock them out, but what I mean is that I think the odds are real high you'll likely just kill them too, hitting people in the temple is really dangerous).

This argument moves the discussion from "is it okay to sap animals" to "should sap be more potentially lethal"...

Perhaps so.  With the system I have proposed (called shots, critical strikes, hide bonuses) the type of weapon used and the skill of the attacker would have a lot to do with the potential lethality of the attack... Which I personally think would just be wonderful.  I would prefer, greatly, to break a fool's kneecap and leave him incapacitated while I rob and/or interrogate him.  Knocking him out just robs the player of fun, myself of interaction, and should, realistically, have a much larger chance of being a fatal attack.

[Xio]

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

How many hunters do you know, personally, irl?

One example of real life techniques used by Native Americans (Not 100% sure it was native americans, but I know for sure this technique was used):
Heavy, blunt arrows shot at squirrels to knock them out so their pelts, and the majority of bones would remain undamaged.

[musashi]

I thought PF had a lot of good points in that last post. The only thing I saw that I didn't really agree with was this.

A hunter is effectively "hidden" from a baby seal because the baby seal is unaware of the hunter.

My reasoning ... if you examine the baby seal's face, I believe you will find that the hunter is not exactly ... hidden from the baby seal. It looks more like a case of when an animal IG tries to flee from you, but it's already out of movement points so it just sits there and screams.

[staggerlee]

Maybe take the discussion away from clubbing baby seals and focus instead on playability and style. 

Does sapping animals harm playability?
Does it detract from the game's atmosphere, style and feel? 

My feeling is that if the staff didn't want you to backstab/sap animals, the abilities wouldn't work on them. There are situations where both could be quite useful, and reasonable in game.  It is up to the player to judge whether their use of it is appropriate. 

I'd imagine if you hunt animals in order to "practice clubbing things" and spam sap on them over and over again, someone would object, but if it's ic, presented well and done with a tasteful frequency then you're okay.