Sapping animals

[Salt Merchant]

Please note that this is not a question as to whether it is possible to do this, since that can be found out IC.

This is just a general question as to whether it would be considered "bad form". After all, some of the creatures have a pretty thick skull. Some have chitinous protection. Some may not even have heads or it wouldn't matter if they were struck on the head.

Does anyone want to offer an opinion?

[musashi]

I'd say it should be fair game on a humanoid type creature ... as for an animal animal ... heh ... I dunno man ... I bet a plains-ox would just get really pissed off. But hey, give it a try

EDIT: I know in slaughter houses they knock the cows out with a sledgehammer so ... if you're gonna try, might wanna bring something big.

[Grey Area]

There's something hilarious about skulking about bopping tregils on the head. Kinda like clubbing baby seals.

[AmandaGreathouse]

There's something hilarious about skulking about bopping tregils on the head. Kinda like clubbing baby seals.

That's exactly what I compared it to when I walked in from the kitchen and saw my husband logged in and doing that. 

[jstorrie]

I think it's absolutely fine to sap any creature that has some sort of discernable anatomy. Go nuts.

[manonfire]

I sap everything.

[Fathi]

Actually, I see sapping as a totally viable hunting strategy, if not a preferred one when dealing with small prey. For the same reasons that folks in the Arctic club seals instead of shooting them:

When trying to preserve as much pelt as you can from a smallish animal or a particularly tender one like a goudra or tregil, it makes sense to me that somebody hunting said animal would try to aim for the head as opposed to damaging the hide.

[Mood]

I demand arctic seals to club for Arm2.

[musashi]

I'm only scratching my head because I thought the sneaky city types who might have the sap skill couldn't sneak in the desert.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm only scratching my head because I thought the sneaky city types who might have the sap skill couldn't sneak in the desert.

You're suppose to play a character, not a guild.

[Spoon]

Hmm... I don't see a huge problem with it, but the point musashi brings up is more about roles than guilds.

I'm sure if you weren't meant to sap animals it wouldn't work, but I'm also fairly certain the skill was intended for sapping humanoids, hence city-based guilds get it. Guilds are supposed to shape you character to an extent.

[Tisiphone]

Hmm... I don't see a huge problem with it, but the point musashi brings up is more about roles than guilds.

I'm sure if you weren't meant to sap animals it wouldn't work, but I'm also fairly certain the skill was intended for sapping humanoids, hence city-based guilds get it. Guilds are supposed to shape you character to an extent.

Yeah, don't give me that. Even if true, you can make a ranger/thug.

Go crazy with sapping.

[musashi]

EDIT: I basically erased everything I typed the first go round because, after reading it ... I realized it sounded very condescending and aggressive. Sorry to whoever read it. 

Anyway, it's only my personal opinion, but I don't see "sap" as being a skill one should use on animals as a hunting technique, unless you maybe happen to be clubbing a "baby" animal, ala the baby seals reference.

But in all fairness, I don't think warriors should be using bash or whatever other combat techniques they have on animals either. Wanting to play billy goat with a carru seems a bit surreal to me.

I suppose I'm a bit of a traditionalist at heart, but I feel like there is a lot of truth in the arguement people always bring up when we have combat related threads: Hunting animals is a completely different thing from fighting people, even though to the combat code, it isn't.

To paint the picture ... when my character goes out to hunt, he usually thinks to himself something like: I think I'll hunt some gurth today, or goudra ... or ... I was hunting skeet the past few days ... I don't want to spook the game or overhunt them so, perhaps today I'll head east and see about downing a duskhorn.

Then he goes out, and proceeds to look for that aforementioned selected game. He doesn't wander room to room killing any animal mob he finds as if it were a video game with points to rack up. He often gets IC'ly irate when he finds things like gortok or duskhorn heads littered throughout the world because he thinks it's a waste of an already scarce resource, esp when a properly trained person can use those heads to break them down into useable components.

When he finds said game ... I usually RP the killing of it in a few different ways depending. Maybe he'll use archery if the animal is a vestric or a tregil, because it's easier to just shoot them than to run them down (they're too fast and not worth that much effort!) ... maybe he'll shoot them because it's a duskhorn or carru and they're dangerous up close ... if it's a skeet or gurth or goudra (something that doesn't typically run away code-wise) I might RP him running the animal down with his mount (and maybe throw in a 'charge' to kick combat off) and skewing it with his spear. Or if he doesn't have arrows and the animal is a flighty one ... I'll RP leaving the mount behind to sneak up on them (tossing in some hide and sneak to boot).

I just feel like going out there and walking around, killing anything you come across to skin it and try to sell its hide back in town isn't hunting, it's mob bashing for coins and skill gain, and I don't see many people even trying to throw more than an emote or two out there the entire time they're doing it. It's just kind of a "run out at dawn and kill kill kill ... run back in at dusk and save the RP for the tavern". Well, that's how it looks to me anyway.

When my character hunts, it's a lot of emoting ... camping in the wilds over several nights ... yadda yadda yadda. I might return to the city with at most ... 3 pelts or something like that.

So while I'm against the idea of using sap to "hunt" ... I'm also against the idea of spam-hunting like it's a dungeon crawl in the first place ... but people aren't going to quit doing it so ... hey I guess whatever.

[RogueGunslinger]

Why does 'sap' have to be a skill only used for knocking things out? Why can't it be any normal swing with a club at somethings head?

Because that's all it is. You're just swinging a club at somethings head when it isn't expecting it, increasing the chance of knocking it out.

Sapping an animal 'isnt' silly. Because all you're doing is initiating a surprise attack on something.

That would really be my main concern ... I doubt an adult animal is going to let someone walk up and sap it in the back of the head

This is just the simplicity of the code. Why can you sit a room away and drill creatures with arrows or throwing knives without them reacting? It's unrealistic. But that's how it works. We can't make creatures mimic reality through the code with efficiency. That's just the nature of the game. Is it twinking to know this and still shoot arrows at something?

[Maso]

Why can you sit a room away and drill creatures with arrows or throwing knives without them reacting? It's unrealistic. But that's how it works. We can't make creatures mimic reality through the code with efficiency. That's just the nature of the game. Is it twinking to know this and still shoot arrows at something?

Why can you land 25 arrows into a lizard and it still end up at excellent health. 

[FuSoYa]

I have to agree, I play sap as just trying to get a damn good blow on someone's head with the chance and hope of knocking them out. 

Brandon

[musashi]

I have to agree, I play sap as just trying to get a damn good blow on someone's head with the chance and hope of knocking them out. 

Brandon

Well like I said in my revised post, I see it as a skill to be used against humanoid-folk (and I see bash, and all those other warrior folk type skills to be used in the same light). Playing it as landing a blow on someone's head suits me just fine.

For me, I just wish hunting in general were handled with more RP, less killing spree.

If someone could find a tasteful way to work it into the "feel" of actual hunting, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But the jaded side of me just worries what it will degenerate into is this:

l n; n; sap duskhorn; sap;sap;sap;sap;sap;sap;sap;sap;sap;sap;sap;sap;flee north;n;n;rest;*wait*;stand;s;s;sap duskhorn;sap;sap;sap;sap.

Also to play devil's advocate a little bit ... if it was not intended to be a "sneaky" type of sapping, and was just supposed to be a general "aim for their head with a club" ... why do only sneaky guilds receive the skill?

Our characters aren't just the guild they pick, but it seems silly to assume the guild they pick has no bearing on them whatsoever. I mean, near as I can see ... it's not innovative, creative, and groundbreaking to pick the merchant guild and write up a background for an arena pit fighter, it's just kind of silly.

[RogueGunslinger]

Sap is an initial attack, combined with some element of surprise. It's not kick. You can't do it in middle of a fight. Just be creative with your RP when you hunt and quit focusing on the skills you use to do it...


>scribble a large 'X' on the ground.
>em ties a large rock to a long vine using a nearby tree to hoist it high above the ground.
>drop meat below a large rock dangling from a vine, atop a large 'X' on the ground.
You drop a piece of dried erdlu meat.  Shown to the room as:
A piece of dried erdlu meat is here below a large rock dangling from a vine, atop a large 'X' on the ground.
>Think just in case something else happens by while Johnz is taking his sweet time.

you think:
      "Just in case something else happens by while Johnz is taking his sweet time."


>hem grips the other end of the vine and moves behind some shrubbery.
>hide

you attempt to blend into the foliage in the area.

The tall hunter runs in from the west.

>think 'bout fucking time you get here, Johnz, you asshole. I've been sitting in this bush for near three hours.

A Carru arrives from the west.

The tall hunter swipes out at the large brown carru, attempting to lure it to a large 'X' on the ground.
The tall hunter begins attacking a large brown Carru.
The tall hunter says in Sirihish:
                          "Now!!"

>Em lets go of the vine, watching the rock fall through the air.
>sap carru.

You missed!

>think Oh shit!

[FuSoYa]

Unfortunately you are not correct in the fact that only sneaky guilds get the skill.  Also, the way you have presented it with the striing of commands is not viable man.  I appreciate your opinions but I'd be wary of lumping alot of people into what you think some might do.  That being said, just enjoy the game for youself.

As for the question of a guild and it defining a character.  I know for myself I look at the guild and subguild as mainly the skills my character has the potential of excelling in.  Therefore if I wanted to be a shitty pit fighter I might pick the merchant guild.  I wouldn't, but it's a thought.

Brandon

[musashi]

Well, as I've said many times before ... it wouldn't be the first time I'm mistaken on something And rather good to know I was wrong in fact.

Also, I think RGS's little scene there was quite amusing, and probably a very good way in which to roll a "sap" into hunting an animal.

[Rahnevyn]

>Em lets go of the vine, watching the rock fall through the air.
>sap carru.

I wouldn't do something like this in the game, it misrepresents what is codedly going on. Code-wise, when you try to sap something, you are sneaking up on it with a club and trying to whack it over the head, not staying back at a distance and swinging rocks at it.

Again not the "official" staff stance, but I don't see too much problem with sapping animals, if you're codedly able to do it. Attempting to sap giant creatures like mekillots and bahamets and braxats is a little unrealistic unless you are a half-giant... but usually the coded consequences of trying to sap those animals enforces realism pretty nicely.

[X-D]

I would also like to add that bash is just knocking something down. And in hunting animals with primitive weapons, knocking them over is indeed a good method.

No where does it say how you are knocking them down with the skill.

[RogueGunslinger]

I would also like to add that bash is just knocking something down. And in hunting animals with primitive melee weapons, knocking them over is indeed a good method.

No where does it say how you are knocking them down with the skill.

[Ueda]

This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly on the head, with the intent of knocking them out.

Notes
     You must always use a 'bludgeoning' weapon to sap.

I would be totally fine with someone doing something like RogueGunslingers post.

[X-D]

Um, I was talking about Bash not Sap. I figured others had done good enough on sap.

Notice my post actually says BASH?

* X-D rolls his eyes.

Which also means you do not cross out and change to melee, I meant primitive weapons...period.

Meh.

[RogueGunslinger]

I have a problem with calling things primitive just because they are made out of different material than metal. That's why I changed your post.

Zalanthas isn't primitive. Not in my eyes at least.

Edited to add:

Primitive
    * crude: belonging to an early stage of technical development; characterized by simplicity and (often) crudeness; "the crude weapons and rude ...
    * a person who belongs to an early stage of civilization
    * archaic: little evolved from or characteristic of an earlier ancestral type; "archaic forms of life"; "primitive mammals"; "the okapi is a short-necked primitive cousin of the giraffe"

Some weapons on zalanthas may be 'crude' but not all of them. Also, I don't believe we are in the early stage of civilization.

It' a pet peeve of mine; people calling things in zalanthas primitive.

[psionic fungus]

I just feel like going out there and walking around, killing anything you come across to skin it and try to sell its hide back in town isn't hunting, it's mob bashing for coins and skill gain, and I don't see many people even trying to throw more than an emote or two out there the entire time they're doing it. It's just kind of a "run out at dawn and kill kill kill ... run back in at dusk and save the RP for the tavern". Well, that's how it looks to me anyway.

Just to be absolutely clear... This type of behavior is bad.

Sapping animals is not necessarily this type of behavior.

I see it as a skill to be used against humanoid-folk...

Well... Correct your misconception and play on, man!

[musashi]

Already corrected Thanks.

[Spoon]

Ok... using clubbing seals or other animals isn't a very good example. That's a hunter beating an animal to death with a club.

kill baby seal

That's all that is. With a club.

[musashi]

Ok... using clubbing seals or other animals isn't a very good example. That's a hunter beating an animal to death with a club.

kill baby seal

That's all that is. With a club.

*chuckle* and ... QFT

[psionic fungus]

Ok... using clubbing seals or other animals isn't a very good example. That's a hunter beating an animal to death with a club.

kill baby seal

That's all that is. With a club.

Have you ever clubbed a seal (or any other animal, which trappers do regularly)?

Have you ever sapped someone?

On what basis are you placing your assertion?

This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly on the head, with the intent of knocking them out.

Do you see how this description suits sneaking up on a goudra and clubbing it in the head perfectly?

Clubbing a baby seal does not involve melee combat, like it might with an adult elephant seal.  This -is- a situation where the victim is stealthily (as much as needed) approached and then quickly dispatched with a single blow to the head... In other words, a sapping.

Do you realize that there are reasons why cows are (were) routinely slaughtered by blunt blows to the head, that trappers routinely club their victims (to keep pelts and meat in good condition), that sneaking up and hitting an animal on the head is not a whole lot different from doing it to a person, and that it is an effective and utilized hunting method IRL?

[musashi]

I think what they meant to imply is that sapping's goal is the render the sappiee knocked out. Clubbing a seal is meant to crack its head open, squish its brain, and render it dead. I believe a lot of seal trappers us something called a hakapik for this purpose, and it has a hook or spike on it to assist in the killing part.

EDIT: I'm so sorry ... I have to do this.

[Riev]

The idea of sapping an animal in Zalanthas, I should think, is still with the purpose of knocking them out, but once they are knocked out, you get free hits to the head or neck since they aren't moving, and thus saving the pelt.

Just because the idea of sapping a humanoid is to knock them out to get past guards, or to kidnap someone, doesn't mean it also isn't so you can kill them with relatively no RP. Subdue>Kill anyone?

[psionic fungus]

Yes...

Hopefully this will be resolved in future versions of the game by combining sap and backstab into a more generic ability for striking from a "hidden" position.

Code Select Expand


>hide (slowing ^me approach) [ducking behind a long, low drift of snow]

You notice: Slowing his approach, the tall, muscular man hides, ducking behind a long, low drift of snow.

>hit seal's head (suddenly lunging from behind a snow drift) [viciously bringing ^me ~hakapik down]

Suddenly lunging from behind a snow drift, the tall, muscular man saps a cute baby seal's head, viciously bringing his bone-hooked hakapik down, doing incredible damage!

A cute baby seal's eyes roll back in its head.


That's how it should be done.

It's perfectly in character and reasonable to attempt to hit a game animal on the head to knock it out and/or kill it.

The code is not perfect, unfortunately.

[musashi]

Hopefully this will be resolved in future versions of the game by combining sap and backstab into a more generic ability for striking from a "hidden" position.

If those two abilities are bled together into a generic "increased damage when striking from a hidden position" type skill, wouldn't that make it difficult (codewise I mean) to try and sap someone with the intent of /just/ knocking them out, instead of killing them?

I thought the purpose of backstab and sap being different was to distinguish the ability to take a live captive, or kill a dead mark.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I thought the purpose of backstab and sap being different was to distinguish the ability to take a live captive, or kill a dead mark.

I think the differentiation would occur between when you're using an edged weapon, and when you're using a blunt weapon.

[musashi]

Ah! No worries then.

[Maso]

And also sap would be far more effective on an animal than a backstab.

[psionic fungus]

Actually, since there would be no real difference between the two command wise....

Hit Location and Weapon Type would be the most important thing to consider when attacking Animals or Humanoids...

[musashi]

Well, I think the whole idea of a "backstab" is a little off to begin with. Could just be a long standing tradition that started way back in the day when writers of first edition D&D gave it to the thief class as a special ability.

But in the real world, stabbing someone in their back in generally not the most effective way to kill them in a quick fashion ... esp not the most effective way to kill them without having them make a sound. Neither is slitting their throat.

In the higher levels of the Marine Corps martial arts program dealing with knife techniques, all my instructors taught us to to stab the blade of the knife into the little concave part at the base of a human skull, upwards at maybe a 45 degree angle. It jacks up the part of the brain that handles body control and basically severs the link between brain and spine, so they just drop like a rag doll and can't scream because they can't work their vocal cords.

/derail

I'm not sure how effective just clubbing someone in the head real hard would be when it comes to knocking them out (Well, I'm sure it very well could knock them out, but what I mean is that I think the odds are real high you'll likely just kill them too, hitting people in the temple is really dangerous). The movies show people doing it all the time, but I was always taught that the quickest way to make someone pass out (without running that risk of them dieing) was with a blood choke (squeezing the neck so as to cut the blood off from the head) but even that takes 5 - 10 seconds IIRC.

[Maso]

Well, essentially a backstab is just a stab from behind after sneaking up. This could be into the concave at the base of the skull.

[musashi]

Could be yes.

I always imagined it looking something like

[RogueGunslinger]

help backstab
Skill Backstab                                                     (Combat)

   This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent.
The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the
attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully
backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will
be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's
backstab skill level.

[amish overlord]

Might also use sap to capture cuddly critters to sell as pets to nobles, rich merchants, etc! I one time sap'd with a big staff a gurth. I see no big deal, smacking something upside the head.

Amish Overlord 

[musashi]

Might also use sap to capture cuddly critters to sell as pets to nobles, rich merchants, etc! I one time sap'd with a big staff a gurth. I see no big deal, smacking something upside the head.

Amish Overlord 

Another twist to the discussion ... that's not a bad angle at all.

And thanks RGS.

[Spoon]

I didn't say I mind people using sap on animals in my first post, but since we've now been flooded with crap reasons for clubbing animals:

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

Clubbing seals does not involve stealth. It involves stamping up to an obviously helpless animal and whacking it to death so you don't damage the fur.

Have you ever clubbed a seal (or any other animal, which trappers do regularly)?

Have you ever sapped someone?

On what basis are you placing your assertion?

This a trick question?

[psionic fungus]

They're all tricks.  We're all out to get one-another.   

My point is that clubbing animals is an effective form of hunting.  Doing so when the victim is unsuspecting is obviously the easiest and quickest method.  A hunter is effectively "hidden" from a baby seal because the baby seal is unaware of the hunter.

If you want another example, I just read an article in National Geographic about -chimps- dropping from branches and using rocks to bludgeon deer in the head...  I'm pretty sure people have used similar methods.  Many game animals are not simply going to stand around letting you hit them with a club, you have to sneak up and make the first hit count, or else they're going to get away.  There is a definite reason that "sapping" animals is reserved for small game, and it is probably mostly utilized where large game is not available.  In my anthropology class most of the hunting we observed utilized poisons, with a fair amount of net/snare + club techniques...  I imagine this is because small game is pointless to hunt (in lush forests), and both poisons and nets/snares effectively immobilize larger prey.

Seriously... If I were hunting nutria I would "sneak" up to one at the edge of a group and kill it with a single strike.  The is represented in the game by either "sap" or "backstab".  I could easily use a spear or a club to do this, but the club would keep both the meat and the hide in better shape.

Sapping game animals makes sense.

As for this:

I'm not sure how effective just clubbing someone in the head real hard would be when it comes to knocking them out (Well, I'm sure it very well could knock them out, but what I mean is that I think the odds are real high you'll likely just kill them too, hitting people in the temple is really dangerous).

This argument moves the discussion from "is it okay to sap animals" to "should sap be more potentially lethal"...

Perhaps so.  With the system I have proposed (called shots, critical strikes, hide bonuses) the type of weapon used and the skill of the attacker would have a lot to do with the potential lethality of the attack... Which I personally think would just be wonderful.  I would prefer, greatly, to break a fool's kneecap and leave him incapacitated while I rob and/or interrogate him.  Knocking him out just robs the player of fun, myself of interaction, and should, realistically, have a much larger chance of being a fatal attack.

[Xio]

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

How many hunters do you know, personally, irl?

One example of real life techniques used by Native Americans (Not 100% sure it was native americans, but I know for sure this technique was used):
Heavy, blunt arrows shot at squirrels to knock them out so their pelts, and the majority of bones would remain undamaged.

[musashi]

I thought PF had a lot of good points in that last post. The only thing I saw that I didn't really agree with was this.

A hunter is effectively "hidden" from a baby seal because the baby seal is unaware of the hunter.

My reasoning ... if you examine the baby seal's face, I believe you will find that the hunter is not exactly ... hidden from the baby seal. It looks more like a case of when an animal IG tries to flee from you, but it's already out of movement points so it just sits there and screams.

[staggerlee]

Maybe take the discussion away from clubbing baby seals and focus instead on playability and style. 

Does sapping animals harm playability?
Does it detract from the game's atmosphere, style and feel? 

My feeling is that if the staff didn't want you to backstab/sap animals, the abilities wouldn't work on them. There are situations where both could be quite useful, and reasonable in game.  It is up to the player to judge whether their use of it is appropriate. 

I'd imagine if you hunt animals in order to "practice clubbing things" and spam sap on them over and over again, someone would object, but if it's ic, presented well and done with a tasteful frequency then you're okay.

[Mood]

My feeling is that if the staff didn't want you to backstab/sap animals, the abilities wouldn't work on them.

[musashi]

While I also agree that sapping animals, if done in a tasteful manner RP-wise, is completely fine (having come around through the course of this thread) ... I do disagree a bit with the

My feeling is that if the staff didn't want you to backstab/sap animals, the abilities wouldn't work on them.

thing. There is a lot in the game that the code might let you do, but isn't really kosher. So it's good to bring it up for discussion.

Also, for the record, despite my best efforts at combing through google, I have not been able to find any citeable example of people ever actually preferring to knock an animal out instead of just killing it with the blunt object they're hunting with. All the examples listed to date (just two I belive, seal clubbing and shooting blunt arrows at squirrels) were designed to kill the creatures in the single blow, not knock them out. It just so happens the tools used were blunt. Although ... I did find an interesting random fact about dolphins ...

While hunting for food underwater, some dolphins also make very loud clicking sounds that may knock out any small fish or squid within range. The dolphins then gobble up the sound-stunned prey.

Link: http://www.wspa-usa.org/pages/2222_dolphin_facts_for_kids.cfm

Can someone find a good example of hunters aiming to knock an animal out with a blunt object at some point in history? It would probably seal the debate on this whole thread up nice and tidy.

[X-D]

Think outside the box man.

No really. True, the desire when hunting is to kill the animal. And using a blunt weapon IRL you want to kill the animal. But why use the blunt weapon over the pointy one? Aside from not doing as much damage to the pelt, the blunt weapon also has a far greater chance to stun or knockout the animal so you can then kill it.   Which is what you would be doing IG with sap while hunting anyway.

To give an example IRL. In the spring before planting season farmers have to go out and get the equipment ready. Now this means clearing things like the planter of vermin. Normaly mice. Now there are many ways you could kill mice of course, but the most common way if your a farmer is to have somebody stand by near the planters outlet tubes while you open the top. the person by the tubes does a merry dance stomping on the hundreds of mice (at least it feels like hundreds) That come pooring out the tubes while the one at the top grabs them from the bin by the tails 1, 2 or more at a time and slaps the heads against the steel and drops them while reaching for more. This is blunt force trauma, normaly killing the mouse outright but if not stunning it long enough for the stomper to get to it. ALSO, look up deep sea fishing or shark fishing. Larger more dangerouse fish once on the gaf are normaly thumped on the head to knock them out or stun them long enough to get on the boat without risk to the people bringing it aboard.

[musashi]

So, can you give me a link for that or? I looked up a couple pages on shark fishing and deep sea fishing but it didn't really go into how to do it (except some vauge references to very big nets). And as I said, and as some other folks said, I don't really have a problem with people sapping animals, but the point that I belive was posed (by Spoon IIRC)

Ok... using clubbing seals or other animals isn't a very good example. That's a hunter beating an animal to death with a club.

kill baby seal

That's all that is. With a club.

Is that according to the help file on sap, it involves using stealth

This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly on the head, with the intent of knocking them out.

And with the intent of knocking them out, rather than the intent of killing them, but generally alright with knocking them out if they can't be killed in one shot anyhow. The code sort of already accomadates that by typing 'wield club' followed by 'kill critter' and hoping your savvy enough to score a critical hit yes?

The whole stealth aspect of sneaking up on an animal to whack them in the back of the head may be a soley Zalanthian thing, instead of a RL thing, I think that's the only counter-point to be made.

[X-D]

Looking up some things can be a pain in the ass, and I'm far from the find stuff on the internet master like some others are. Though, I'd bet you might have better luck on something like youtube where you can just search through some videos...keep in mind you will likley want to be looking at the sport side and not the commercial side...though I believe even on the commercial side it is common practice to club netted sharks and even barracuda before dumping them back into the sea.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

If Hunter Joe wants to sneak up on DoomGoudra and club him over the head so that his valuable hide isn't ruined, I say more power to him.  Same thing with DoomCarru, DoomBahamet, whatever.  Why does it matter whether it's realistic, whether it's done by Modern Day Hunters, whether people in Ancient Sumeria would club elk over the head or not?  It's a fantasy game, guys.  I don't see how it really equates.

Do I think you should try and sap a gelatinous cube?  Of course not.  Some common sense is required.  But if you've got the RP for it, if the code supports it, and if the staffers don't tell you you're a putz for doing it, I think it's safe to assume that you can go to town.

[musashi]

Whoa dude ... you were right Right at about a minute and 35 seconds he just clubs the thing. It doesn't pass though, and it's not very stealthy ... but ... wow, it's cool to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvkos_ly-ME

[Spoon]

How many hunters do you know, personally, irl?

You'd better be taking the piss.

[Sokotra]

I have not been able to find any citeable example of people ever actually preferring to knock an animal out instead of just killing it with the blunt object they're hunting with.

Hmm.. to me it is basically the same thing.  If you happen to be good at hitting things from behind at the right spot on the head to do more damage or to simply daze it or knock it out, then why wouldn't someone do that?  That is perfectly realistic and this thread is just kinda silly, it seems to me.  Wouldn't it make sense that you are probably going to kill something faster if you can hit it on the back of the head and knock it out or daze it or whatever?  Then you'd just have to hit it a couple more times on the head to make sure it is dead, or just skin the thing alive (if it is completely unconscious) so you don't cause anymore damage to the hide or skull or whatever you are trying to harvest from the thing.

So basically, you are trying to kill the thing faster if you prefer hitting it on the back of the head and knock it out.  The end.

[musashi]

I have not been able to find any citeable example of people ever actually preferring to knock an animal out instead of just killing it with the blunt object they're hunting with.

Hmm.. to me it is basically the same thing.  If you happen to be good at hitting things from behind at the right spot on the head to do more damage or to simply daze it or knock it out, then why wouldn't someone do that?  That is perfectly realistic and this thread is just kinda silly, it seems to me.  Wouldn't it make sense that you are probably going to kill something faster if you can hit it on the back of the head and knock it out or daze it or whatever?  Then you'd just have to hit it a couple more times on the head to make sure it is dead, or just skin the thing alive (if it is completely unconscious) so you don't cause anymore damage to the hide or skull or whatever you are trying to harvest from the thing.

So basically, you are trying to kill the thing faster if you prefer hitting it on the back of the head and knock it out.  The end.

Well again, I don't have a problem with it. I'm just saying that I haven't found any examples of where the "stealth" part of it came in IRL hunting, and to me, the sneaky stealth part is what makes it a sap instead of a "wield club and kill this thing". So as long as the sneaky part is being portrayed in said hunter's RP, I would be a-ok. I can't find any references where hunters have ever used a "sneak up and knock them out with a blunt object" technique IRL, but maybe I just haven't been lucky with the ole google engine, or even if there are no examples in RL, hey, it's Armageddon. Different hunting styles FTW.

However, if for example, someone just walked up to my character in the middle of the wilderness without emoting at all, or without any kind of sneaky type RP attempt (semotes, sneaking and hiding, ect) ... and they just typed "sap musashi" then later said: well it isn't a sneaky skill, it's just my character being naturally better at hitting people in the head!

I have to agree, I play sap as just trying to get a damn good blow on someone's head with the chance and hope of knocking them out. 

Brandon

I would be a little mad ... and I would point them to the help file where it says: This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly on the head ... ... you know, provided I lived through it.

That's all.

[Tisiphone]

...whether people in Ancient Sumeria would club elk over the head or not?

I can be rather certain that Sumerians did not club elk.

In Real Life, people use pointy things like spears on the larger animals, because they work. People do not club carru.

That said, if you want to be silly enough to try to sap one, be my guest. There's nothing saying people don't behave stupidly, after all.

[musashi]

People do not club carru.

That said, if you want to be silly enough to try to sap one, be my guest. There's nothing saying people don't behave stupidly, after all.

Half-giants might though  Of course, I haven't seen too many sneaky half-giants but I'm sure they're out there, hiding in the very, very big shadows.

[psionic fungus]

And with the intent of knocking them out, rather than the intent of killing them, but generally alright with knocking them out if they can't be killed in one shot anyhow. The code sort of already accomadates that by typing 'wield club' followed by 'kill critter' and hoping your savvy enough to score a critical hit yes?

The whole stealth aspect of sneaking up on an animal to whack them in the back of the head may be a soley Zalanthian thing, instead of a RL thing, I think that's the only counter-point to be made.

The code does not accommodate "this".  You cannot attempt to one-hit kill an animal by bludgeoning its head with the code, because you cannot direct your blow.  The only way to represent this type of action in the game is to use the "sap" code.  I have outlined my preferred method of surprise attacks, and how that would change this elsewhere, but for the time being "sap" is what we have to use.

I'm just saying that I haven't found any examples of where the "stealth" part of it came in IRL hunting, and to me, the sneaky stealth part is what makes it a sap instead of a "wield club and kill this thing".

I don't really see how you expect to get close enough to an animal to bludgeon it to death with a single blow without being at least slightly stealthy.  Unless they are slow, snared, or trapped... Which most commonly clubbed game animals are.

As for finding examples... You see people clubbing game the same places you see children bringing dead rats home for dinner.  Clubs are not what big game hunters with video cameras utilize... Even the use of clubs in trapping isn't something anyone is going to document or glorify.  It's just a quick and easy way to dispatch wounded prey without damaging the pelt...

Everyone should witness some native tribal hunting techniques where they circle around a large area of the forest in groups of two -with nets, clubs, and spears- and then slowly move towards a central point, driving all the animals into a small kill-zone, where there is an orgy of blood and death... It's really intense to watch.

Finally, I have to say, that I hope 2.Arm introduces called shots and critical strikes so players can appropriately club animals in the head whether hidden, sneaking, or being utterly obvious...

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I can be rather certain that Sumerians did not club elk.

That was rather the point 

[Shoka Windrunner]

I've seen someone knock a sow unconcious with one hit from a shovel.

Pigs have extremely hard heads.

So yeah, if I'm facing something, and I think I can smack them in the head and knock them out or stun them, you better believe that I will.

[Riev]

How the crap is this thread still going on? I think we've determined its both codedly possible, and can be done ICly no matter what. Go ahead, sap a bahamet. If you think you can do it, do it.

Thats pretty much the end of the discussion. Codedly possible, if your character has a reason to attempt it, there is no reason not to.

[sprucebark]

I'd sap a goudra because it has a nice soft pretty hide I can snuggle in and riding out on
my sunback to slash it with a sword, parry its claws, and block its teeth with my shield
isn't really "hunting".  If I'm knocking it out with a few blows and you're slashing the
Krath out of it with a triple-bladed obsidian boondoggler, someone is hunting and someone
is using the code....maybe confetti goudra should leave no hide for the real hunters.

Sorry for the late post but I'm posting anyway.

[spawnloser]

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

My friend Sally's father, a farmer, punched a cow and knocked it out when he was going to slaughter it.  Good enough?

[manonfire]

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

My friend Sally's father, a farmer, punched a cow and knocked it out when he was going to slaughter it.  Good enough?

shens

[Spoon]

If someone gives me one example of knocking an animal out in real life, for the purpose of hunting, I'll shut up.

My friend Sally's father, a farmer, punched a cow and knocked it out when he was going to slaughter it.  Good enough?

Definitely good. Though it was a domestic animal and so wasn't hunted as such.

As for this discussion, I don't have a huge problem with people using sap on animals, and they're going to do it anyway. What makes me sad is the greatest kidnapper in the known world will have spent his whole life sapping tregils.

[Yam]

Tregils are a lot like children.

Little, furry children.

[Maso]

In China (and probably other countries without animal rights laws) the animals that they plan on skinning they simply knock out. Though usually this is done to captive animals by picking them up by their legs and smacking them against the ground or hitting them over the head with clubs. They don't actually care whether or not they kill the animal so long as it is stunned enough to be skinned. Yes, they skin them alive. If you need video proof, I have a link but it's not a pretty sight (am doing an anti-fur campaign for Uni).

People do 'sap' animals. ESPECIALLY if they want their fur as this doesn't damage the skin. Sometimes it kills the animal yes, but whether or not the result is death is not an issue to these hunters. They just want the animal to stay still(ish).

[X-D]

BTW, Tregil are hairless.

[psionic fungus]

And yet supple tregil -hide- is used for many luxurious leather goods.

So... You still don't want to damage it.

*sigh*

[Tisiphone]

And yet supple tregil -hide- is used for many luxurious leather goods.

So... You still don't want to damage it.

I got the feeling this:

BTW, Tregil are hairless.

was more in response to this:

Tregils are a lot like children.

Little, furry children. (emphasis added)

than this:

...ESPECIALLY if they want their fur as this doesn't damage the skin. (emphasis added)

[Yam]

I thought tregils were only hairless on their feet/hands?

Whatever. I'm still gonna murderize them.

[X-D]

Tisiphone is correct.

And by desc A hairless tregil, tregil are hairless and grey skinned.

[Yam]

Wow. I've been emoting that wrong for a while.

Oops.

[musashi]

People do 'sap' animals. ESPECIALLY if they want their fur as this doesn't damage the skin. Sometimes it kills the animal yes, but whether or not the result is death is not an issue to these hunters. They just want the animal to stay still(ish).

I don't think anyone is challenging the fact that people hit animals on the head with clubs. The only point that's been raised is that the sap skill, per its help file, states it's the act of sneaking up on someone to hit them on the head. Most situations that involve hitting an animal on the head do not have anything to do with stealth. I've still yet to see an example of stealth being used to run up and club an animal as a hunting technique.

Having said that, I also don't mind if people do it in the game because, like I said before, it's Armageddon, it's a fantasy game ... maybe it is a valid hunting technique on Zalanthas.

[Tisiphone]

Also, maybe even if 'tisn't a valid hunting technique, people do stupid things. I don't think the argument should be that people 'don't' do things so much as SMART hunters don't do THIS, because it gets you killed, and maybe that the code should be changed to reflect that somehow.

Note that I'm not taking this position. I'm actually fine with people sapping animals.

[RogueGunslinger]

You totally cant sap animals! It's completely unrealistic and stupid. And so are people that think you can.

[manonfire]

Hey look, someone else telling me how to play.

[RogueGunslinger]

 

[BlackMagic0]

There's something hilarious about skulking about bopping tregils on the head. Kinda like clubbing baby seals.

I needed a new sig, Even if I've not popped in here for a long ass time. New things are hawt.