Re: Reminder about what your character knows and feels

[Coat of Arms]

Then I was wrong, the problem must be too many players having karma along with too many players wanting to play non-mundanes. That is, of course, assuming one believes the whole thing to be a problem.

It's hard for us to tell what the exact cause is, other than the obvious end-of-the-game state. I think it's established now, though, that we don't like it much. It's pretty darn difficult for a bunch of mundanes to do anything about a bunch of magickers that they barely out-number, so while I would love for the whole thing to be handled ICly, I just don't see that as a possibility.

Is the staff willing to acknowledge the problem, or openly disagree with it? I've spoken with one staff member about it recently and I've come to the conclusion that what looked to me like favorism toward magickers is really just the result of some magicker players being really good at working in cooperation with the staff to further plotlines. It doesn't change the fact that there are just too damn many of them.

Why is this a problem? Aside from the obvious, where players feel jarred and annoyed that they're seeing so many magickers, it has a direct influence on the mundane playerbase. If there are 200 active players who play enough to have any kind of impact on the game world, and 20 of them are magickers, it's not that bad. There are players left to fill the clans, the cities, the taverns, the alleys. What happens when it goes from 180:20 to 150:50? Perhaps even 120:80? We're probably not quite there yet, but I think it's the direction we're headed. There's more to it than players being annoyed that part of the documentation is no longer true. Those same players are having less fun because there's now 2 players in their clan instead of 4 or 5. Because the taverns are often empty during peak hours. Because there are areas that are now all but abandoned, or practically taken over by magickers. Because the high number of non-mundanes mean that there are less mundanes to fill a game that has always struggled to fill every clan and every settlement.

[a strange shadow]

The real question is how many non-mundane vs mundane characters there currently are in the world who last more than 2 ic days.

The problem with that demand is that player stupidity probably accounts for 90% of character deaths.

This thread is turning into noise rather than reasonable discourse, but hopefully some issues get cleared up and people cool their heads a little. It might be healthy for a lot of us to simply ignore the GDB and play the game (responsibly).

Peace,
Shadow

[Krath]

Look, people, I take this voluntary de-karma-ing seriously, because we are not going to change the karma system in any way that requires new code, as all our coding energies are going to the new game.

Nor do I think special apps are the problem.  Most of the people playing karma classes are using their actual karma that they have.  And I don't think we're awarding karma any more than we used to, it just that there's usually more people who don't use their karma.  But with the end of the game coming (but not in sight yet, folks) more people want to try what they've never tried before, because it might be their last chance.

I don't want to take away their candy once they've already got it, 'cause that would be mean.  But if other people want to go on a diet and forego candy, I'm more than happy to support that.

Then what is the problem?  Why is it that if there is an RPT mundanes have to sit at the
sidelines while the x-men magickers of death kill everything at a distance, or before a
mundane can do anything. Why not just make all rpts Magicker only with NPC soldiers?
That is the direction I think the game is going right now. But if nothing is going to be done, then
why bother?

[Alberic]

If we remove karma in order to solve the magicker problem (which I think is not so bad as to deserve this gigantic fuss), what happens to the non-magickal karma options? There are many very interesting, detailed races available via karma which come without magickal leanings. It would be a shame for those to be swept up in the "solution."

Presumably those of us giving up all our karma could special app karma required mundane roles. Who knows, staff may even look favourably on those apps as they will be different from the psi-of-doom apps they probably get daily. It just means we don't get to auto-make them and have to go though the sometimes 1month special app process.

[Ktavialt]

Karma Point Regeneration Option
Staff raises the karma limit your character can have instead of the karma amount.  Karma gets added like 1 per 3 months, until you reach your current limit.

Or we can make it as, you regen one karma per month but it starts after your character dies.

I suppose I'm not understanding this, but are you suggesting that while you have an active character it doesn't regen?  That kinda blows for consistent players cause they won't be able to play the karma classes unless they take a break from Arm for awhile.  Or maybe the karma-o-meter doesn't toll when playing a non-karma race/guild?  If that were the case, and it was 1 karma a month, play a warrior for 8 months and you'll already have sorc karma.  That doesn't seem right.

Anyways, might as well combine this with extra stuff...

Update Fighter-Type Abilities - Each elementalist has dozens of spells at his disposal, but a warrior has bash, rescue, guard, flee, and parry.   More diversity?

Magickal Backfiring - Every time a spell is cast, there is a chance that somewhere nearby, a PC may get some sort of curse/malady.  Particularly good with making people hate gemmers.

Incognito Curse-Like Spells - One reason people don't hate magickers is because magickers have difficulty being the evil conniving semi-demons they are supposed to be. Magickers have this difficulty because any serious attempt to screw someone = dead magicker, unless its of course your 1 spell instakill magicker in the wastes.  Promote more inner city magick terror by having spells which could potentially be cast by a gemmer, without the particular gemmer or even element type being detected.

[mansa]

How to fix it?  - End the world now, this weekend.  Take a break.

You're pretty much guaranteeing an unacceptable amount of attrition from players.  People are going to go elsewhere and find other things to do.  A solid number won't come back for awhile, never hearing about Arm 2.0's re-release.  Some will never come back.

Yes, I've been saying that the game should end for a while now.
( http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26283 )

However, some great players have already left.  Some players are going to leave once their current character dies.  New players will come along.  New players -have- started playing over the last two months.

I believe ArmageddonMUD is so addictive, that people won't give up the game for good.  I believe that with the start of Armageddon2.0, you'll have a playerbase of mid-20s, and it will take another year for it to get back to the mid-60s.  I believe this game is 'good' so that we'll get new players, and even the old players will come back.

You could say that I've left.  I haven't played since my last character died.  I feel the urge to play still - but I'm waiting for a better moment.  Moreso, I'm waiting for the current 'major characters' of the game to die off, because it's not fun to play with the same people again and again.

I believe that the game needs a purge of the current way of playing the game.  I believe the game has a feel to it - where you need to be more powerful than others - that overpowers the feeling of storyline generating.  I think this current way of playing the game is focused too much on destroying everything.

When the staff say they will not code anything new for the game, or build anything new - that's when I feel the game is stagnate.  Because it is stagnate at that point.

[Alberic]

Magickal Backfiring - Every time a spell is cast, there is a chance that somewhere nearby, a PC may get some sort of curse/malady.  Particularly good with making people hate gemmers.

Incognito Curse-Like Spells - One reason people don't hate magickers is because magickers have difficulty being the evil conniving semi-demons they are supposed to be. Magickers have this difficulty because any serious attempt to screw someone = dead magicker, unless its of course your 1 spell instakill magicker in the wastes.  Promote more inner city magick terror by having spells which could potentially be cast by a gemmer, without the particular gemmer or even element type being detected.

Wait wait. In a thread about there being too many magickers and that they are too powerful you are seriously suggesting....making magickers much more powerful.... I think the reason people don't obviously hate magickers is because acting in anyway like you hate/dispise/mildly dislike a magicker infront of said magicker will most likely get you dead.

[Vanth]

Did you say 1000-5000 apps every half year?

Seven magickers plus however many are in that haven't had to special app and play regularly.

1-5k=1 karma to 5 karma

[a strange shadow]

Now, why don't we all take a deep breath, relax, and remember that this is a cooperative story we tell, and intended to be for fun and enjoyment. This thread is starting to remind me of a kindergarten class where everyone's very mad at their teacher for serving chocolate chip cookies instead of peanut butter, so they start throwing temper tantrums before she can even explain that she's got another box of cookies sitting in the desk.

I don't believe your final paragraph is true at all. This is the most mature i've seen the 'face of the playerbase' on the GDB in years.

Clarification: I said starting to remind me. There was a point in this ever-exploding thread, probably four or five pages back by the time I hit 'submit' on this post, where people were really getting hot.

There -is- a tangible problem with the game right now. If you do not see it, you choose to not see it.

I do see it, but my point is that it has not been ignored, and in fact, from past threads on this subject, it has appeared to me that solutions have been considered and even implemented (the severe reduction of accepted special application applications, for one). The problem does still exist, and for my opinions on that, refer to my original post.

I'll recap my suggested solutions here for those who don't feel like skipping back several pages:

1) Those who are careless with their supernatural PCs should suffer the consequences, even if that involves staff intervention to properly reflect the virtual world.

2) Introduce more skills and plots that focus entirely on mundane characters and abilities, aka give the normal folks some love.

[Fnord]

Anyways, might as well combine this with extra stuff...

You would get burned at the stake as an imm. Nobody hates anything more on an MUD/MMO than having a character they've worked on for a long time "nerfed". I'm not going to get into mundane vs. magickal power, but suffice it say that played properly either can be very effective code-wise. The problem folks are discussing is more about ratios of mundanes :: magickers (both number of players and plots) and how the old values of fear and loathing have started to be ignored. Knee jerk gimping would only compound the problem.

[Forest Junkie]

Then what is the problem?  Why is it that if there is an RPT mundanes have to sit at the
sidelines while the x-men magickers of death kill everything at a distance, or before a
mundane can do anything. Why not just make all rpts Magicker only with NPC soldiers?
That is the direction I think the game is going right now. But if nothing is going to be done, then
why bother?

Quit your goddamn bitching and just play the game. Your sarcastic remarks will not win the staff over regarding your point of view. Maybe those magicker plots were created by the players? Did you ever stop the think that? Maybe the current population of mundane players lack the drive and personal ambition to *gasp* start something on their own, and the magicky players who are starting something on their on are, as a result, are getting support from staff members because they're *gasp* contributing to the game world with *gasp* ideas. What, you think staff create every single plot currently in the game? I think not. There are mundane plots in this game. Find them. I'm on a quest currently to create a traveling troupe of bards. I'm going to create a Zalanthan ROCK BAND. What are you doing to curb the amount of players in the game? Are you actually creating a character to support your beliefs and subsequently help this community grow, or are you just bitching for the sake of it? I abhore the statement "be the change you want to see," but enough is enough people It's time to grow the hell up.

Complaining will get us no where, so instead of this bickering lets all play mundanes and create mundane plots.

[Janna]

I cherish and am proud of the fact that I earned 3 karma points' worth of staff trust in a year of playing. I "worked hard" in the sense of giving my roleplay my all, contributing to the game world, and working cooperatively with the staff. I love ARM. I appreciate the staff and the playerbase as a whole.

I just want to see less magick and more mundanity.

So I'm giving up my karma as a form of peaceful demonstration.

I wanted to try playing a Vivaduan again sometime, but I'm OK with not doing that, if my karma donation contributes positively to awareness and discussion and decision-making on this issue.

Basically my exact thoughts as well.

[Reiloth]

These coded solutions are pointless. The game -is- ending soon. As Vanth has said, no one will be changing the way Karma works.

Clans:
Akei'ta Var
Arm of the Dragon
Bards of Poets' Circle
Council of Allanaki Mages
Elan Pah Alliance
House Borsail
House Fale
House Kadius
House Kurac
House Oash
House Salarr
House Tenneshi
House Tor
House Winrothol
Malarn Tribals
Plainsfolk
PtarKen Tribe
Red Fangs
Silt Winds
Soh Lanah Kah
T'zai Byn
Tan Muark
The Atrium
The Guild
Tuluki Nobles
Tuluki Templarate
Unclanned
Utep Sun Clan
Tribal People

I have already made the list myself. How many of these clans interact with magickers daily? Weekly? How many are friendly to Magickers? How many are friendly to Magickers, and shouldn't be?

Do the math.

And then wonder why the quality of RP has gone out the window, in favor of coded power.

I believe that Magickers -can- be good RPers. It is 100% possible. I have seen many myself that are mindblowing, even now. But when you look at the saturation of Magick, and the cheezy high-fantasy plots...Zalanthas has turned into white-noise, as Shadow put it. It is a white-noise of Magick and Magick-related plots.

I play a Magicker currently, and despite playing it well, and RPing the character well, will most likely be retiring it in favor of a more mundane role.

[Alberic]

Actually, it sounded like he was suggesting making people more powerful...



Instead of closing the game, we could always have the apocalypse and then keep the game open. Just edit or delete a bunch of rooms in the various cities to reflect them being destroyed and then those who want to play can and the larger than normal number of magickers is explained by them being better able to survive said apocalypse. Nothing harsher than trying to survive post-apocalypse. No more cities to hide in. Just unforgiving desert.

Or maybe I'm just primed to play Fallout 3.

[Shalooonsh]

Complaining will get us no where, so instead of this bickering lets all play mundanes and create mundane plots.

Spoken for truth.

There's only one thing that will create a more mundane existance:

More players playing mundanes.

We don't sit up in Staffsylvania and say "Gosh, guys, lets make a magicky plot because I like magick and magickmagickmagick."  We sit up in Staffsylvania saying, "Lets see, who's giving out some awesome effort and roleplay, updating bios regularly, and sending us reports on exactly what the PC they are playing is doing or thinking?  Well, there's this person, hmm, I know precisely what they're all about, what they're going for.  I think it would be fun to support the effort and make a plotline off of it that could include other people and better the world."  

If the PC in question is a magicker, it's usually a magicker plotline.

If the PC in question is a mundane, it is 99.95% likely that the plotline/plot-arc will be mundane in nature.

Oh, and by the way, it's endlessly amusing to me (not the entirety of staff) to watch you GDB users who have PCs who are magickal bitch about how much magick there is in the game and how it never goes away.  You make me giggle for hours.

[Forest Junkie]

Oh, and by the way, it's endlessly amusing to me (not the entirety of staff) to watch you GDB users who have PCs who are magickal bitch about how much magick there is in the game and how it never goes away.  You make me giggle for hours.

Which is exactly why I'd rather have no karma at all. From here on out, I want nothing but mundanes. From here on out, I don't even want to see those options again. I want to get rid of that itch.

[Gimfalisette]

I have to say, the staff actually did a VERY cool and mostly mundane thing for my completely mundane character fairly recently that was really unexpected and so fun. Basically it was a one-day kickoff which started a longer plot that is still going. I didn't ask for it; I was just there and available and I guess they wanted to do it. (Yes, I sent them kudos for rocking.)

I have also proposed some mundane plot stuff to my clan imms, the kind of thing that would need a fairly large quantity of immteraction. I'll probably bug them about it more until they tell me yes or no.

And I've been running my own mundane plot things recently...you know, the kind of thing that doesn't need any immtervention.

I guess I'm just chiming in with the "be the change you want to see" thing. That's really what it's all about. Play mundanes, run mundane plots, ask the imms to help you run mundane plots.

[Shalooonsh]

Consider yourself itchless.  Your karma points have been added to the collective pool of Ghandi-esque demonstration.

Thanks for being so brave as to sacrifice it for the good of the game.

[Reiloth]

I would like to sacrifice my karma as well. The staff should know I am good roleplayer, I do not need validation for it.

ACCOUNT NAME REMOVED BY STAFF

[Lizzie]

Man with everyone giving up their karma, I guess I'll have to hope that all the current magickers, AND my character, all die really soon. And then...

I WILL APP THE ONLY MAGICKER IN THE GAME.

Bwahahahahahahhaha

Should be fun. I just hope I have the karma for it. The only time I know of that I got any karma at all, I got one point. If I have more than that, no one's told me and I'm STILL on this same character, over a year later, so I haven't been able to check in over a year. Why doesn't anyone kill my character? I feel so neglected <sniff>

[Shalooonsh]

Wish granted.  Another handful of points drop into the pot.

Anyone else?

[X-D]

You know...I've never had a problem ignoring my karma in favor of playing a mundane myself.

And I find it much easier to play 2 mundane in a row then 2 mages...and really cannot understand how some people can play mage after mage after mage....eeewww.

Anyway....thats all I got for this thread.

[Shalooonsh]

And by the way, for clarification, RACES are not being removed.

Just magicker classes.

This is a sacrifice for the mundane, not a complete removal of points.

Also, each account that is sacrificing is being noted that they did so willingly, and are to be trusted at the original accounting of points.

[Maybe42or54]

Sweet, throw my karma into the void. *wipes off the brow* not losing the D-elf. DELETED BY STAFF is my account name.

[mansa]

And by the way, for clarification, RACES are not being removed.

Just magicker classes.

This is a sacrifice for the mundane, not a complete removal of points.

Also, each account that is sacrificing is being noted that they did so willingly, and are to be trusted at the original accounting of points.

People trust my original account notes?

/snicker

However, I still have to disagree with this current solution.  I don't believe it will fix the problem.

The problem lies with what the players want with the game.  What they feel they can get their enjoyment from.  Why they currently play the game.

This problem - as I see it - is harder to solve.