Tuluk and the various misconceptions/stigma that surround it

[Forest Junkie]

*Note* I am not here to take sides on this issue. I merely want to present what I see as a problem, and work with the players and staff to discover a solution. In no way am I endorsing Tuluk, Allanak, or any house, clan, or group of players, and I hope that my post reflects this statement.

I have noticed for some time now that the areas of the game have become a bit unbalanced. Whether or not this can be attributed to the "new" Tuluk and its political landscape, I am not certain, nor will I attempt to state such as fact. Rather, I have come to the conclusion that there are various misconceptions about Tuluk and how it is to be played, and I hope that we as players can address this issue.

*Tuluk is just as gritty and "Zalanthan" as Allanak. It is just as harsh, if not more so, than Allanak. It brings a different kind of darkness to Zalanthas: Allanak is more overt and outright, while Tuluk is far more cerebral, or internal. In short, I think that in some aspects it is more difficult to play in Tuluk than in Allanak, for to be truly successful as an individual there, you must learn to use your wits and simultaneously master the art of manipulation/alteration.

I know that the playerbase in Zalanthas can be considered cyclic to some degree, though I would also like to point out that there are several players who rarely, if ever, change up their style of characters and make the same concepts over and over again in the same city-state (this goes for both Tuluki and Allanaki players alike).

My question: What can we do as players and staff to ensure that both the north and south are adequately populated during the final months of Armageddon? I find it disheartening to see seventy players in the known world, only to find myself as the only one in a city-state. Something is very wrong with this picture, and I'd like to open up a discussion where everyone can present constructive ideas and hypotheses as to what we should do and how we should do it.

I just find it unfair to all of us that Tuluk is apparently getting the shaft at the moment. It's always been the butt of jokes and people's ridicule, and I believe that the misconceptions and stigma regarding its style of play and level of harshness have unduly given it a bad rap - that is to say, the majority of players seem to think of Tuluk as a toned down, weak alternative to the might/grit of Allanak.

Your comments? Please, don't post rude remarks in this thread. We as a community should not tolerate childish behavior, and I'd hate to see this thread locked by staff. Let's not disappoint each other - instead, let's come together and see what we can do to fix what I perceive as a big big problem.

[Marauder Moe]

Tuluk is underpopulated?  I thought it was Allanak that was underpopulated right now.

[moab]

Tuluk is an interesting idea and I think that if there were only one city to survive in Arm2, it would be Tuluk.  And I say this as a die-hard southerner who has not played more than a few hours in new Tuluk.

I think there is potential in Tuluk, but that potential is better realized in Arm2 as it doesn't fit well in the current Arm.

This hurts me to say as I love Allanak.  I love the gritty dirty, filthy hole of a city.  I like that.

The alleys system in Tuluk, blows (actually I dislike much of the map, it doesn't feel organic enough to me).  I hope the next builders discover the secrets that make the 'rinth work and somehow incorporate that into the next version.

Didn't mean to segue, just thinking out loud.

[Malken]

I don't want to derail too much, but I just don't know where to play anymore..

I create a character in Tuluk, spend hours sitting in the Sanctuary, I see almost no one, yet the 'who' says there's 40 players online..

I retire and create a character in Allanak, spend hours sitting in the Barrel and the Gaj, I see almost no one, yet the 'who' says there's 40 players online..

So should I retire now yet again and play in Tuluk? Meh..

[ale six]

I think that you're overgeneralising and stereotyping yourself with some of the things you've said, FJ.

Allanak is more overt and outright, while Tuluk is far more cerebral, or internal. In short, I think that in some aspects it is more difficult to play in Tuluk than in Allanak, for to be truly successful as an individual there, you must learn to use your wits and simultaneously master the art of manipulation/alteration.

Politics in Allanak are more overt, I'll agree. Politics in Tuluk are quieter but just as strong. In BOTH cities, you will need to use your wits and need to be able to manipulate. I don't think it's fair to say either city is more cerebral or that either city has any more internal politics than the other.

I just find it unfair to all of us that Tuluk is apparently getting the shaft at the moment. It's always been the butt of jokes and people's ridicule, and I believe that the misconceptions and stigma regarding its style of play and level of harshness have unduly given it a bad rap - that is to say, the majority of players seem to think of Tuluk as a toned down, weak alternative to the might/grit of Allanak.

I'm with Moe - I thought this was true in reverse, funnily enough. With all the changes and all the "brave, new system" talk about Tuluk on the boards lately, I've honestly felt like poor old decrepit Allanak was the one losing attention.

I've played in both cities and had fun in both of them. To be honest, what I dislike more than anything is propaganda and fanboy/girlism about anything in the game, be that Tuluk, Allanak, Kurac, desert elves, or whatever. It's easy to ruffle feathers with attitudes like that, even unintentionally, and especially when players in other parts of the game that aren't populated enough for their liking start feeling like you're trying to steal players from "their" city.

With that said, I guess you're trying to start a discussion on how to keep the cities populated in the final months of the game. I'll be honest and say that if my PC died tomorrow, I would be less likely to start a new one in Tuluk than I would elsewhere. This is nothing against Tuluk or the new system or the people playing there. I'm really not wanting to play a loyalist or somebody that wants to 'live by the system' as my next role, and it seems most of the potential and fun in Tuluk is when you are either a servant of partisan of somebody, or a 'licensed' criminal. Allanak has the Labyrinth and the outposts and tribals don't have strong and powerful law enforcement to hinder characters trying to keep a low profile and stay out of the notice of important people. I feel like Tuluk is missing that unsanctioned crime element to the extent that other places have it. Sure, you can play a licensed partisan assassin/thief type person and have lots of fun, but that isn't the route I'd want to go. The most interesting Tuluki concept to me right now would be a hidden mage, and I doubt she would live long.

So that's just my personal opinion. Take it for whatever you will.

[Agent_137]

play a character that draws people to you.

Or go live in Red Storm. Allanak is gritty? Pssha.

And honestly, I couldn't give two shits about tuluk's population level. It's getting an appearance in the next game, whereas all my favorite places are more than likely just going to be wiped off the map.

[Gimfalisette]

I think it's safe to say that both cities have been suffering from the 25% loss in playerbase we've had since the announcement of 2.ARM. I do not know whether this is compounded by people playing characters in more isolated or remote areas of the game or not...but it's possible. Tuluk isn't alone in its pain at the moment.

[Malken]

I think the biggest problem we face right now is that we can't even begin to start shutting down clans or places to play because some players will come and tell us that this is their favorite spot to play in and without it they'll quit the game.

We can't shut down the 'rinth, because some prefers to play the really gritty aspect of living in Allanak..

We can't shut down any desert elf tribes because some prefers to play in one, while others prefer to play in the other, and some only wants to play desert elves, and some have already established desert elf characters..

We can't shut down Tuluk, because that's risking losing a really huge part of the playerbase..

Can't shut down Luir's because it's still one of the only place where I know I'll always find someone to roleplay with, easily.. And some very old characters live there..

So what can we really do about it? Should we just start taking risks and saying, well, it's better to lose maybe 5% of our playerbase if we shut down the desert elves, hoping that some will relocate, than them drawing in players from where the rest of the playerbase play? (Not targetting desert elves in particular, it is just an example...)

Should we start denying applications for lone mages, but then, some only still play to try out the classes they haven't been able to play yet before the game ends... So what's to do?

I think we're just all sitting tight, hoping that it will get better with time, but I don't know, maybe we should just be happy at this point and let it slide till Arm2 is up and running..

So I guess my point is that it's nothing wrong with Tuluk, we just have less players spread out everywhere.. (Heck, c'mon, halflings at this point?) So it's hard to squeeze them all back together without upsetting a few..

[Rindan]

I have a feeling Tuluk is suffering more from the fact that everyone has karma and a desire to see the world before it goes away then anything else.  If everyone and their dog is a magiker or desert elf, then Tuluk is going to take a population hit.  Even Allanak is looking a little sparse these days.

As far as issues with Tuluk 'not Zalanthas enough', you can take that however you want.  Tuluk is not Allanak.  Many people consider Allanak to be as Zalanthas as it gets.  

I hit up Tuluk for the first time in a RL year or two.  The plot stuff going on looks neat, but the city itself is still a turn off.  The ways in which Tuluk doesn't stack up against Allanak for me are simple.

1)  The Tuluk wilderness is both rich in resources and not terribly dangerous.  Don't argue that Tuluk has its own dangers.  Yes it does have its own dangers, but they are easy to avoid once you know the area.  The area is rich with critters that a ranger can easily kill and skin.  Compare this to Allanak where there are few critters, almost all of which will tear the head off a lone ranger.

2)  Tuluk's lawless and quasi-lawless areas really suck in terms of practical use for a criminal.  You need lawless areas with access to the city and bars if you want lawless thugs.

3)  Tuluk's map is a real turn off for a lot of people.  There are a lot of well patrolled roads and only a handful of alleyways.  The map is massive, yet filled with a lot of nothing in many areas.  It feels less like one city and more like half a dozen different villages that have been abandoned by PCs.  Either you are in the Sanc, or you will never see another player again.

I don't think anything can be done about the stuff that turns me off from Tuluk.  Some people are just never going to really enjoy Tuluk because they like a certain type of gritty experience that Tuluk doesn't do a good job offering up.  That isn't to say that Tuluk is a safe and happy place, just that it does some things poorly.

The only thing I can think of to make Tuluk more attractive is to A) more plots to attract people B) close down some iso clans (and risk pissing off iso players) C) cut off peoples' karma so they stop making whirians and desert elves to go exploring.

I doubt that B or C is going to happen.

[Impska]

Obviously the content of this post has been edited too much to be a valid contribution.

Rock on Tulukis. Good luck.

[Coat of Arms]

I think much of the hostility toward Tuluk comes from elitism. Everybody knows that Tuluk has become synonymous with 'easy'. Living costs substantially less than in Allanak, mainly in terms of food and drink. Some of the easiest creatures in the whole world are crammed up in a neat circle around the city. The weather is usually pretty forgiving compared to other parts of the world. Brutality and oppression is less evident, and you can even steal and kill legally if you've paid the rather cheap price to become a licensed thief or assassin. You don't run the risk of getting killed while passing through the gates with a grain of spice. You don't see magickers every single day (unless you take two steps outside the gates), and people wear sexy clothes. This makes a good portion of the playerbase view the place as a sort of easy-mode the way it always happens in any competitive online game, and a bunch of players end up disliking another group of players just because they think their own ways are better.

I've never given Tuluk a decent chance because every time I've been there, the place has been all but deserted with nothing awesome immediately evident. Being mostly off-peak, I just don't have the energy to try an area known for its low population because often I struggle enough to find interaction in Allanak. It's a vicious circle for many players who take a quick look, decide that it's not worth it and leave, the result being that the next player does the same and only a small part of them decide to stick around. Apart from that, I've always found Tuluk to be a bit too dynamic. I never really know where I've got things there. Whenever I visit there's something new going on, new Noble Houses opened up for players, a new area built, a focus shifted from bards to merchants to the Noble House men-at-arms and back to bards. In Allanak I have a strange sense of security in that I actually know much of what goes on there without even playing in the city, just because it hasn't ever changed much. Some would find that bad but I always liked it.

For me to become interested in Tuluk, it would take something to convince me that I won't end up spending 90% of my time alone there, and that I have a good chance of getting involved in something interesting without being a bard or a noble's partizan. It seems to be leaning in the right direction lately and I might try it out if/when by current character dies, but I know I'll still be apprehensive because almost all of my visits to the place were met either with characters trying way too hard to be fun-loving hippie types who lurve music, or with nothing at all.

Another thing I was wondering, inspired by some old post on the GDB, is whether or not licensed thieves can be profitable for the city at all. Assassination seems fine to me, both because it creates interesting conflict and a sense of danger, and because there's some serious money in that. But legal theft... I just never saw how that could turn out to favor the city in any way. For as long as I've played, every apartment in the city has been burglarized on a daily basis to the point where some players complain that they can't rent a room for one RL day without finding the door open next time they log in. That has got to piss Nenyuk off. Rich merchants losing goods regularly must affect the economy as well. Nothing much happens if Random Amos loses his dagger, but wide-spread theft from anyone with influence must have a negative effect on the system in one way or the other. All this criminal money goes straight into the pocket of the licensed thieves, and what does the Templarate gain? A one-time fee of like 300 'sid for each thief who might steal tens of thousands worth during their career. Don't try to tell me that these thefts would happen anyway because there's no way the city won't have seen an increase in criminal activity after making it legal.

Edit to add, after reading the other replies: And yes, I haven't ever heard of a thriving lawless-type criminal underground in Tuluk. You get the occasional guy trying to set something up in Under-Tuluk but I've never seen it succeed. Any undesirable play seems to be quickly thwarted by the templars. Big negative in my book.

[Tarx]

Well, I'll go ahead and say the ooc complication of not having people around to do things no longer is a problem.  I will agree readily that it was, probably...maybe two months ago.  Even a month ago.  But after some determined play and IC activity, people have begun to show up at all times in Tuluk.  There's quite a few off-peak players that choose Tuluk as their haunts for playing now.

I assure you that there are a few characters involved up North now that probably aren't your typical fun-loving hippy-types.  Subtle, like the North is supposed to be, but not as bouncy-happy as I have seen the North portrayed in the past.

As far as the thief thing...it can be profitable in ways you may not be thinking of.  The "city" can likely set up agreements with thieves, and so can various individuals.  And sometimes profit can't really be measured in terms of obsidian coins or assets, but in prestige and confidence.

Yes, while the landscape up north seems to be dynamic, it doesn't change too terribly quickly--and there are some things that pretty much always remain the same.  I've had more fun organizing and playing the Northlands in the past months than I've had in quite some time.

With that said, I enjoy Allanak too, for other reasons, and I enjoy Luir's as well.  I don't think it's so much about the places as much as the people that make those places come to life.

[Salt Merchant]

What do you call a male ladybug?

Why are softballs hard?

Why do we scrub down and wash up?

How fast do hotcakes sell?

If everything sticks to crazy glue, then why doesn't it stick to the bottle?

Why do people jump on me for mentioning things I read in a few earlier threads, and not on the people that wrote them then?

[Delirium]

Um, guys. You keep referring to something that is not in the documentation and, though relatively widespread knowledge among PCs in the game world, should not be spoiled for those who don't know it already by blabbing about it on the GDB.

Gosh.

[spawnloser]

I was just going to say what Delirium said to Impska and Salt Merchant.  Stop talking about something that isn't in the documentation, even if you're not coming right out and saying it... you may as well be because you're saying what happens, which begs the cause.  Please edit your posts.

Staff, if they don't edit them quick-like, would you please fix the issue in their posts?

[Gimfalisette]

While everyone knows I'm a fan of Tuluk, I'm not here to try to defend that sphere of play in the game. What I want to do is offer a bit of a different perspective on Tuluk, Allanak, and really most any area of the game.

The problem with Tuluk is that the majority of the people who play there don't play the culture properly.

Incidentally, this is also the problem with Allanak. It's also the problem with the 'rinth. I'd venture to guess it's the problem with any area of the game.

The issue with not playing the culture properly means both that it's not being correctly modeled for those who are new to the area, and the experience of game play in that area is just not as rich and deep as it potentially could be.

Note: In all of the below examples, I am mostly talking about general commoner PCs. Leader PCs, especially nobles and templars, often do a good job modeling their cultures or at least goodly chunks of culture.

Examples: In Tuluk, there is hardly anyone who can actually "do" subtlety or adequately understand it when it's done to them. There are few players who show an appreciation for Tuluki history. There is little of the sense of deep-rooted traditionalism that there should be. Almost no one can actually explain the partisan system and how it came to be. There are almost no players who really display understanding of the caste system, the social distinctions therein, and have the proper attitude of disgust toward ideas of inter-caste sex. Most Gol-Krathu born PCs are completely ignorant of Poets' Circle and bards; let alone appreciating bards! Almost no one shows the correct attitude toward the theft/assassination licensing system, ESPECIALLY if they're the amateur getting thrown in jail. Very few players are aware of the meaning of the various tattoos that PCs -should- be wearing a lot more of.

In Allanak, it's not -quite- as bad, but there are still significant gaps in cultural understanding and play. (IMO, it's not as bad because Allanak's culture is a bit more obvious and easier in some ways.) Examples: Very few characters seem to understand that the rigid social structure is enforced through open, brutal displays of power. Almost no PCs know how to play the corruption/bribery game. Wealth is not treated like the social signifier it should be. PCs constantly seem to overestimate their own social standing and underestimate the standing of those around them, because they lack understanding of the social structure. Sex is not understood and used as the power tool it should be. PCs tend to be non-confrontational or non-brutal, unless they're being stupidly confrontational with the wrong people. (Again, clueless about the power structure.) PCs seem to not understand that the many honorifics, bows, salutes and so on that are employed are not -optional-, but rather another tool for enforcing power.

If you think that everyone in Tuluk is playing by the rules, and that makes things boring, then to be honest you don't even know what the rules really are. Likewise, if you can't get into playing a partisan in Tuluk, then you're willfully missing out on a huge part of what it really means to play in Tuluk.

As to why things have never gotten set up in Under Tuluk (especially now that the access issues are fixed), I believe the problem there is one of people not understanding the culture AND it's also that there hasn't been strong PC leadership to do this. I have -never- seen a templar try to squish any effort in this direction; in fact, I've seen both nobles and templars try to encourage it. However, on the side of the commoner PCs trying to set it up, mostly what I've seen is gross incompetence, misunderstanding of the culture, and weak, short-term efforts.

But again, I'm not trying to cheerlead for any particular area of the game. I just think ALL areas of the game would be much better served if the PCs there really got deeply into the culture and played it to the hilt.

[Aquarian]

Once again Gim, you prove that you know everything and you are the only person that knows how to play Arm.  They should make a server just for you, that way you can make sure only cool people like you can play. I think all of us that just "don't get it" would be happier knowing an elitest that talks out of her ass just to hear herself talk wasn't sitting amongst us.

[Dalmeth]

Once again Gim, you prove that you know everything and you are the only person that knows how to play Arm.  They should make a server just for you, that way you can make sure only cool people like you can play. I think all of us that just "don't get it" would be happier knowing an elitest that talks out of her ass just to hear herself talk wasn't sitting amongst us.

:shock: Huh?

[Tarx]

Well, I agreed with Gim, so I guess that makes me an elitist as well.  I just didn't see the need to post that I agreed with her.  She knows I do.  But thanks for those encouraging words--I'm sure she will appreciate it!

[Aquarian]

Don't get me wrong.. I'm all for putting forth the best effort and getting into the game. But time after time Gim seems to make stuff up, or if she doesn't understand something she just assumes it isn't there. Every post I see from her is a disgusting effort at word count rather than making a real point.

[Tarx]

Oh.  Well, in that case.

This board is for general discussion of Armageddon MUD. No flames, no IC-sensitive information.

Now play nice and structure your comments in a constructive manner.  I'm sure that'd be more kosher.  There's no reason to get all pissed off.  Gim has a right to an opinion, same as anyone else...

[Ourla]

Alright, let's stop the flaming right now.  Shalooonsh has already warned us against it.

I agree with Gimfalisette.  A big part of understanding the culture of Tuluk is playing in it.  The docs give a general outline of what is expected of PCs there, but it's definitely going to be difficult to RP the culture unless you've been immersed in it and you've seen it in action.  In my opinion, it's really about caring to take the time to educate oneself about the city, ICly and OOCly both.

I'll say, when you see what a well-played Circle bard or a partisan/patron who knows the system can do -- and to my great joy, I've had the pleasure of seeing plenty of both -- the differences between Tuluk and Allanak become obvious.  The more I play this game, the more I appreciate those very differences.  Everything from clothing and fighting styles to favored food spices to being blatant or subtle, the opportunities to roleplay cultural indicators are vast and very, very fun.

Edited to add:

But time after time Gim seems to make stuff up, or if she doesn't understand something she just assumes it isn't there.

I saw nothing in that post that was anything but truth or opinion.  To make this a profitable discussion, it could help immensely if we all address ideas, rather than players.

[Only He Stands There]

I agree with Gimf, too, honestly. Half the Tuluki PCs I've seen have no idea how to properly portray subtlety, and a good half of Allanaki PCs play either A) squeamish nauseated-by-the-sight-of-blood people, or B) nobody's-better-than-me, fucking-Templars-are-dumbasses, nobles-are-just-rich-jackasses type folk, despite the documentation clearly stating that the societal norm in Allanak is that people love bloodshed and know that the nobility (and, therefore, Templarate) is inherently better than them from birth

C'est la vie. Be the change you seek.

[manonfire]

lol, tuluk

[Ourla]

... and know that the nobility (and, therefore, Templarate) is inherently better than them from birth.

This is a huge one in both cities, in my experience.  It's unquestioned by the common caste and the noble castes.  Repeat: unquestioned.  Status in general seems to be seen as a grey area by players sometimes, especially the merchant houses.