Tuluk and the various misconceptions/stigma that surround it

[MoosesRock]

I'm going to have to disagree with Gimf's post.  I haven't played recently in Tuluk, but that has not been my experience in Allanak.   I see bribery, brutality, and fear on a daily basis.  Sure some of us have our off days and sometimes we screw up.  Occasionally, there's someone who just doesn't get it and they usually aren't around for long.

I personally have faith that many Arm players are "getting it" and that is what keeps us all coming back for more.

[Tarx]

This is a huge one in both cities, in my experience. It's unquestioned by the common caste and the noble castes. Repeat: unquestioned. Status in general seems to be seen as a grey area by players sometimes, especially the merchant houses.

I recall a conversation between a noble and a commoner pc (sometime in the past month).  The commoner stated something like "at some point, someone had to become noble" or "well all nobles used to be commoners, right?"  to which the answer was just, flatly, "no," with no further dwelling on the issue.  It made me giggle on the inside.

[Gimfalisette]

This is a huge one in both cities, in my experience. It's unquestioned by the common caste and the noble castes. Repeat: unquestioned. Status in general seems to be seen as a grey area by players sometimes, especially the merchant houses.

I recall a conversation between a noble and a commoner pc (sometime in the past month).  The commoner stated something like "at some point, someone had to become noble" or "well all nobles used to be commoners, right?"  to which the answer was just, flatly, "no," with no further dwelling on the issue.  It made me giggle on the inside.

Some of the Chosen Houses of Tuluk trace their nobility back to this event on the history timeline:

c.400 A hitherto unkown warrior named Muk Utep sacks the twelve tribes at Gol Krathu with an army of terrible barbarians out of the northwest.

Making them noble for over a thousand years. Heh. I believe the same is true of Allanak's nobility, they have been noble for centuries, minimally. But regardless, in Tuluk, the whole idea of being "Chosen" (after the end of the Occupation) is that the nobles were hand-picked by Muk Utep Himself because THEY ARE BETTER. They're Chosen for a reason, and the reason is their superiority. You weren't Chosen? That means you're not superior!

[Tisiphone]

Of course, -really- elitist-snob Chosen (who are also up on their history) will point out that Muk Utep didn't just randomly Choose them out of a crowd. They were leaders and higher castes in their tribes before, and better lieutenants/commanders/whathaveyou than the others. So being Chosen simply meant being recognized, rather than being different.

[Malken]

I'm much better than any of the Chosen, Muk Utep is wrong. It's a shame they just keep on killing me and not allowing me to prove it, each time I say so.

[vissa]

My own reluctance to play in Tuluk stems from two things:

1. Of the two cities, it seems to be more hit-and-miss in terms of off-peak activity.  (That said, I recently gave it a whirl and was pleasantly surprised.  My fellow off-peakers, take note.)

2. The feeling, one that seems well supported by some of the posts in this thread, that unless you play Tuluki characters frequently, or are lucky enough to come across someone who does and is willing to teach you (not a guarantee for an off-peaker), you are never going to really get it.  I cannot begin to express how discouraging that is.  

I don't have any interest in playing a character (or several) who's seen ICly as an idiot and OOCly as the product of yet another player who's doing it wrong, just so that eventually I can play a character who might manage to fit in.  On the other hand, if I thought I had a better chance of getting it right - or at least right enough - the first time, I'd be far more inclined to give Tuluk a chance.  I doubt that I'm the only one who thinks this way.

So Tuluki-for-lifers who are discouraged by a low player count in Tuluk, help people like me help people like you.

Joe Tuluki Commoner should apparently know at least something about the history of Tuluk, social castes, bards, patronage, etc.  All of those things are more or less covered in the documentation.  But some of the things I've read in this thread aren't.  To pluck a few examples..

In Tuluk, there is hardly anyone who can actually "do" subtlety or adequately understand it when it's done to them.

This comes up in every single thread that I've ever read about Tuluk, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone give concrete examples of "subtle" vs. "not subtle" behavior.  I haven't the faintest idea how easy this one would be to answer without picking on specific characters, but it would be nice to know what sort of statements or situations prompt the "no one can do subtle" comments.  Subtlety is very subjective, but it would be nice to have some general guidelines.

Very few players are aware of the meaning of the various tattoos that PCs -should- be wearing a lot more of.

Is this just in reference to the caste tattoos, or are there other tattoos that have a commonly known meaning, but just don't happen to be included in any readily-available documentation anywhere?

Stuff about Under Tuluk.

If it wasn't for the GDB, I wouldn't know that Under Tuluk existed.  Is it mentioned in the docs at all?  Is it just Tuluk's version of the 'Rinth?  Would regular commoners know anything about it?  The lack of information about the place might account in large part for the perception that there is no functioning criminal element in the city.

Any other tips for Tuluki newbies?

[Jherlen]

In Tuluk, there is hardly anyone who can actually "do" subtlety or adequately understand it when it's done to them.

This comes up in every single thread that I've ever read about Tuluk, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone give concrete examples of "subtle" vs. "not subtle" behavior.  I haven't the faintest idea how easy this one would be to answer without picking on specific characters, but it would be nice to know what sort of statements or situations prompt the "no one can do subtle" comments.  Subtlety is very subjective, but it would be nice to have some general guidelines.

I've always felt like Tuluk is a huge, huge city, and not everyone living there grows up living and breathing subtlety. In the common classes, especially, not everyone is going to be a subtle Machiavelli or a plotting backstabber. Subtlety is an art the Faithful and Chosen appreciate, and their servants/partisans emulate, but there are plenty of clay diggers, hunters, lumberjacks, shoemakers, etc. who are just not subtle plotting backstabby people, and don't need to be. It gets you ahead in Tuluk just as cleverness and wits will get you ahead anywhere else, so it's a bonus, but I don't think it's a steadfast requirement.

With that said: Subtlety by itself is hard to really put a finger on in terms of specific actions. It's more of an approach. When your character wants to accomplish something, the subtle way would be quiet, clean, simple and elegant. It's the difference between a few silent stabs of a knife and a bunch of messy clubs to the head.

If you dislike a certain bard, say, the overt and obvious way to express that would be to sneer, jeer, be rude and interrupt their performance, yawn, etc. More subtle ways to show that would be to not tip, tip a very small amount, always find ways to excuse yourself when the bard starts to play, never invite them to play for you, or give them some sort of non-compliment after they've finished ("Why that was lovely lute work, Rosie, it reminds me of the tunes my sister used to play when we were five.")

If someone has insulted you, the overt and obvious way to get back at them would be to gather some thugs together and beat them to a bloody pulp in the street (I imagine, even in Tuluk, this will happen among lower class folks in shady neighborhoods.) More subtle ways to get back at the insult: pay a thief to nick their things or rob their house, start a whisper campaign against their business, invite them over for poisoned tea, get nobles and templars to harass them, etc.

Stuff about Under Tuluk.

If it wasn't for the GDB, I wouldn't know that Under Tuluk existed.  Is it mentioned in the docs at all?  Is it just Tuluk's version of the 'Rinth?  Would regular commoners know anything about it?  The lack of information about the place might account in large part for the perception that there is no functioning criminal element in the city.

I recall (but am too lazy to look for) seeing some very brief docs on UT. It's not a starting location to my knowledge, so I think it's less well-known and less populous than the Labyrinth. The average person has probably heard whispers and rumors of there being places "under Tuluk" that scary things and criminals will hide in, but not much more.

[spawnloser]

A few easy tips on being subtle...

1 - When saying anything that you would expect a Bynner to say, don't say it.  Say something else that let's the person hearing know exactly what you would have said but in prettier words.

2 - When saying anything that could offend, don't say it.  Find something else to say that gets the general message across, but gives the person being spoken to no excuse to get offended with you.

3 - If someone saw you do something bad, you're doing it wrong.

[ale six]

When I was playing my Tuluki artisan/burglar/terrorist, I got to have lots of fun doing subtle things.

When breaking into somebody's apartment, for example, even if she never took anything she would always leave a marker - usually an izdari knight piece if she had any. This became her sort of "calling card". More often than not the burglary victims would go around asking rather openly if anyone knew which burglar left izdari knights behind -- this let my girl know who she was stealing from, so she could decide whether she wanted to rob them more (or sometimes give their stuff back). She could learn all this without saying a word to anyone or revealing her identity as the Izdari Knight, all by relying on the upset furor of victims of theft.

She worked for Tenneshi, back in the days when Tuluki noble politics were mainly just Winrothol vs. Tenneshi snipe-fests. There was one Winrothol dwarf who was being rather annoying to us. I forget what he was doing but I think it was something like trying to steal recruits/partisans over to Winrothol or something like that. Anyway, after a very brief and snippy exchange, she just smiles and tells him she's sure the misunderstanding won't be anything to worry about, while privately deciding she's going to get this guy good.

About five minutes later she eavesdrops on the dwarf ordering a tent from Kurac and paying like 1500 coins or something for it. She watches as he picks it up and takes it back to his apartment. Having done her homework, she knows where that is, so an IC day or so later she breaks in and loots the brand new tent, leaving her calling card. The next week the dwarf is in the Sanctuary virtually interrogating anyone who looks shady about if they're the Izdari Knight or not. He asks my girl (who looks like an artisan stonecarver, not a shady type), and she just shrugs and shakes her head. Soon the dwarf orders ANOTHER 1500 coin tent from Kurac and carries it home, once again right in front of my girl. Once again she waits, then breaks in and steals it. This time the dwarf had hidden the tent in his kitchen cabinet. She felt a little bad about robbing him so bad, though, so the second time she left him a whole izdari set.

I was having fun with that guy, sadly I think he got ate by halflings a few days later. But there's a little taste of subtleness and thievery for you.

[bardess]

I must say I agree that Tuluk has a fairly steep learning curve.  The populace of Tuluk are expected to know a lot about their culture.  Some of this is in the docs, but how can we expect you to memorize it?  I learned it from solid play with solid mentors in Tuluk.  Even after nearly two years of play I didn't even know the UnderTuluk existed until a month or so ago, and I didn't know how to get into it until recently...

But anyways, I know for a fact that characters who don't know their stuff are penalized, and this, their players are discouraged.  I've done it myself.  Yes, that's right, I'm quite guilty.  I've playe din Tuluk so long that much of the cultural information is second nature to me, and when I'm playing as my character, I often forget to think about what the player might be thinking.  A little later it'll occur to me and then I'll kick myself for probably sending another player into the Allanakki oblivion.

I think everyone really over-emphasis the subtley of Tuluk.  Most of the subtley you'll see, as soneone said previously, is the duty of the upper castes.  Aside from that, a lot of it that you'll see is with people of importance, such as Circle bards (Seekers and Bards more than Apprentices, for example), Merchant House employees and leaders, and Legionnares.  A commoner would follow some simple guidelines like spawnloser and Jherlen pointed out.  Look at subtley as something more like sarcasm and less like blantant flaming, to put it in incredibly, incredibly simple terms.

Honestly, the problem with Tuluk is that there isn't really any problem.  It's just diversity of IC life and OOC players.  Armageddon is a game.  Yes, there are rules and documentation that we play by, but we're all different, and we all play a bit differently.  Tuluk fits my style.  It isn't just surface play 100% of the time.  I'm not a fan of gore.  I don't want to be severly incapitated by money and authoritative struggle ICly-- I do that OOCly!  I just want some flavor.  So I will mind my business (and a bit of yours when I'm recruiting) in Tuluk, and you can mind yours in Allanak.

C'mon.  It's not so bad.  I haven't seen much of it in this thread, but in others, it just makes sense.  If you hate Tuluk?

Don't play in Tuluk.

Let us have our fun.

EDIT: Doesn't everyone know by now that I can't type?  I feel sorry for the players who RP with me.  Good grief!

[elvenchipmunk]

Oh, about the Tuluk underground/Old City/Old Ruins whatever you wanna call them, an imm (Bakha) recently - as in within the last year - did some work on the ruins so they are now different and a lot easier to notice!

They're an interesting place, to say the least. I couldn't find anything in the docs about them save for the Tuluk Map, so hopefully it'll help out if someone's trying to find the Old City.

So, check out the 'map tuluk' (help map tuluk) helpfile to get at least a small idea of where they are, and if interested, go look around there! Bakha did a great job on them and it'd be a shame if so few people ever actually got a look at them.

Edit: Found something useful -

Taken from http://www.armageddon.org/intro/underTuluk.html

If you grew up in UnderTuluk...
...while Tuluk's all-seeing and all-knowing Templarate seems to pervade the city, ruling with their benevolent, firm fist, there exists another realm of the Sun King; a cavernous netherworld where even His light does not pierce: Undertuluk.

Consisting of collapsed sections of the original destroyed city, UnderTuluk is a network of natural caves and tunnels interspersed with derelict domiciles and ruins. In this underbelly a thriving alternative to Tuluki society dwells, carving out a living from dishonest trade, black market dealings, crime and all manner of villainy. While there is a central market area, called the Shadow Souk, where trade takes place freely and those so inclined may venture with comparatively little risk to life or limb, as one moves beyond the beaten path dangers increase.

The gangs, predatory groups that claim parts of the tunnels for themselves, have splashed graffiti on tunnel walls, a constantly changing testimony of the wins and losses of unceasing battles for limited resources and territory. Some areas are so dark and dangerous even the gangs won't venture into: environs ruled by rumors of walking corpses that feed on the flesh of the living and bubbles of vile magick that burst in reality-warping occurrences to challenge the sanity of any soul unfortunate enough to happen upon them. Still, there are those, drawn by the tales of untold riches of old Tuluk, just waiting to be uncovered, who risk their lives to go ever further into the cavernous network, hoping to one day find some noble's ancient cache of heirlooms or the find of all finds, metal.

The residents of UT are the dregs and outcasts of society. Mutants, deviants, criminals, and misanthropes they congregate in the caverns and are joined by one common theme: they hate and in turn are hated by the surface world. Whether a born rebel, disgusted by the totalitarian regime of the Dominion or a psychopath, unable to satisfy its sadistic impulses within sight of the Templarate, all walks of life can be found. Varying degrees of hatred are common. Some feel a mild dislike and aversion to the surface while others are downright murderous toward surface dwellers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2006 Armageddon Mud
Submitted by Bakha

Bit of a derail, but hopefully that'll help a couple people.

[Mudder]

Oh, about the Tuluk underground/Old City/Old Ruins whatever you wanna call them, an imm (I forget which, sorry!) recently - as in within the last year - did some work on the ruins so they are now different and a lot easier to notice!

They're an interesting place, to say the least. I couldn't find anything in the docs about them save for the Tuluk Map, so hopefully it'll help out if someone's trying to find the Old City.

So, check out the 'map tuluk' (help map tuluk) helpfile to get at least a small idea of where they are, and if interested, go look around there! The imm did a great job on them and it'd be a shame if so few people ever actually got a look at them.

You would be referring to Bakha, and yeah, he did a good job at revamping the Old Ruins.

[Tisiphone]

'tis in the docs, in a strange place, considering 'tisn't a starting location.

[WWYD]

It used to be. I think it got removed for..

no idea, actually.

[Rhyden]

So,

If everyone agrees with Gimfalisette, who are all these 'majority' players who are completely clueless as to the culture they're playing in. Sorry, Gim, but that statement is a little much. Sure, a few newer players may not 'get it' for a little while, but to say that the majority of players don't get culture in either of the city-states or otherwise, is blatantly ignorant.

If we players were so oblivious to the 'correct' culture play, I'm sure the imms would have done something by now.

Also, I don't think Tuluk is %100 subtle. What about the street sweepers? The bakers and candlestick makers? Do they have to subtly sweep their broom and leave just a bit of kank dung on the road which is actually a secret message that they hate the last guy who walked along the road?

No. Because Tuluk isn't %100 subtle. The Nobles, Templars and bards I've seen have always done quite well at being subtle in Tuluk. Even a few commoners have their subtle moments. But I don't think you can lable Tuluk with that one overused word. It would be like saying America is 'bold' therefore, all Americans have to act bold.  

The majority of players I've seen in both cultures during my time here get the culture they're playing in. I don't see where you get that idea.

[Forest Junkie]

A-fucking-men Rhyden.

[ale six]

The biggest problem is the OOC divisiveness, fanboy/girlism, propagandising, and recruitment that goes on on the GDB that separates players across lines of where they currently play or like to play.

Statements like "sending players into the Allanaki oblivion" are completely unhelpful and really do not encourage me to want to come play with their posters at all. I say this as somebody who's played in both cities and liked both.

Rhyden's post is also very true, IMO. If someone doesn't get the culture, they're doing something like spitting at nobles, challenging templars to duels, etc. Those types of people learn quick. Being an unsubtle Tuluki or a Allanaki who doesn't get off on seeing people die in the arena is not not understanding the culture; it's just playing somebody who's not going to mesh with the accepted norms set down by the upper caste.

[Malken]

I don't think there's a need for Gimfalibashing, she's helped me more than anyone else both ICly and OOCly to get in the right culture mindset of where I play.

On the flip side, I must say that sometime the whole 'subtle' thing of Tuluk can be very annoying and confusing, especially for a new player, because it seems, that often, no matter what you do, a mistake or not, and you think you've screwed up, you go to your superior and the only answer you ever get is a smile and a, "Don't worry about it." which pretty much leaves you clueless to know if you REALLY made a mistake or not..

Sometimes the "Don't worry about it." equals them going to get a license to kill you, or the, "Don't worry about it." equals what it really means.. So in the end you never really get to learn about the culture or from your mistakes until its too late and you're dead.

[FightClub]

I actually started as a newbie in Tuluk, and played my first three or so characters there because I understood more about the environment than anywhere else (speaking of my familiarity of locations of course, I had no fucking clue what was going on in Tuluk beyond that).  After meeting Bahamet, Tembo, and the numerous city dwelling beasts disguised in red and white robes -- I decided to try Allanak.

I've had one or maybe two characters start out in Tuluk since then out of my twenty total.  I've just concluded Tuluk isn't for me, and on those past two characters the only reason I went to Tuluk was to force myself into a different environment in fear of accidentally acting out my old characters rp.

So, Tuluk isn't for everyone, I think the player base is an accurate display of that.  Not everyone has what it takes to be subtle or clever, or survive in the Tuluki environment, and still achieve what they want.  I do not believe the anti-Tuluki, anti-Allanaki propaganda shifts the playerbase at all.  Our players are not puppets, they make their own decisions, and conclusions, and will continue to.

[Nameless Face]

I don't think there's a need for Gimfalibashing...

Not my intent to bash Gimfalisette.  I think her (liberally paraphrased) answer to the topic of this thread,

"the most grevious problem about Tuluk is the players who play there"

kinda speaks for itself.

[Malken]

I don't think there's a need for Gimfalibashing...

Not my intent to bash Gimfalisette.  I think her (liberally paraphrased) answer to the topic of this thread,

"the most grevious problem about Tuluk is the players who play there"

kinda speaks for itself.

That's not what she said, what she said is:

The problem with Tuluk is that the majority of the people who play there don't play the culture properly.

And I think I agree with her a little, I have been playing in Tuluk forever and I'm still not convinced that anyone really understands the partizan-patron relationship, or that anyone really does it the way it should be done.

But considering that I am also mostly confused about it all often, I'm going to point a finger to myself first.

[FightClub]

If Gim is right, and...

The problem with Tuluk is that the majority of the people who play there don't play the culture properly.

Examples: In Tuluk, there is hardly anyone who can actually "do" subtlety or adequately understand it when it's done to them. There are few players who show an appreciation for Tuluki history. There is little of the sense of deep-rooted traditionalism that there should be. Almost no one can actually explain the partisan system and how it came to be. There are almost no players who really display understanding of the caste system, the social distinctions therein, and have the proper attitude of disgust toward ideas of inter-caste sex. Most Gol-Krathu born PCs are completely ignorant of Poets' Circle and bards; let alone appreciating bards! Almost no one shows the correct attitude toward the theft/assassination licensing system, ESPECIALLY if they're the amateur getting thrown in jail. Very few players are aware of the meaning of the various tattoos that PCs -should- be wearing a lot more of.

That is a problem.  Which I agree with, seeing that I've never learned the majority of that, then my question is to you all -- What can Tuluk do to change these things?  I have a proposal, if it hasn't been in action already.

In many clans you will receive lectures, in the Byn they tend to be fundamental boring time wasters, such as the mechanics of wielding a sword, but the one time I played in Tor -- I learned a whole hell of a lot about Southern Culture, its history, its geography and such.  My point is that if players don't know these very crucial things about being Tuluki, then it should be the responsibility of the clan leaders to teach them subtlety, the history of Tuluk, the partisan system, and everything they should know until they have it down.  Whether it should be expected to be known or not from character creation it should be taught by players who know the system, if that would possibly flesh out the Tuluki culture more.  If this is in fact the problem Tuluk is facing.

So my proposal is for clan leaders in Tuluk to add the curriculum of Tuluki basics to their list of things to teach their players...  I feel this is pretty necessary regardless of if this is the cause of Tuluk's problems, and honestly I wish someone had done something like this for me while I was there.

[Gimfalisette]

Bards of the Circle have, in the past, made themselves available for lessons on exactly this kind of thing to the common populace. Tutoring has been commissioned by templars and nobles. So, it's totally possible to get this in game, right now, for anyone who wants it.

[spawnloser]

Bards of the Circle are just as commonly dumbasses as the rest of the population of Tuluk.  They just as commonly misinterpret the documentation too.

[manonfire]

Bards of the Circle are just as commonly dumbasses as the rest of the population of Tuluk.  They just as commonly misinterpret the documentation too.

spawn, it isn't often that you make me laugh out of anything but spite, but i enjoyed a good gut-laugh there.