Tuluk and the various misconceptions/stigma that surround it

[Forest Junkie]

*Note* I am not here to take sides on this issue. I merely want to present what I see as a problem, and work with the players and staff to discover a solution. In no way am I endorsing Tuluk, Allanak, or any house, clan, or group of players, and I hope that my post reflects this statement.

I have noticed for some time now that the areas of the game have become a bit unbalanced. Whether or not this can be attributed to the "new" Tuluk and its political landscape, I am not certain, nor will I attempt to state such as fact. Rather, I have come to the conclusion that there are various misconceptions about Tuluk and how it is to be played, and I hope that we as players can address this issue.

*Tuluk is just as gritty and "Zalanthan" as Allanak. It is just as harsh, if not more so, than Allanak. It brings a different kind of darkness to Zalanthas: Allanak is more overt and outright, while Tuluk is far more cerebral, or internal. In short, I think that in some aspects it is more difficult to play in Tuluk than in Allanak, for to be truly successful as an individual there, you must learn to use your wits and simultaneously master the art of manipulation/alteration.

I know that the playerbase in Zalanthas can be considered cyclic to some degree, though I would also like to point out that there are several players who rarely, if ever, change up their style of characters and make the same concepts over and over again in the same city-state (this goes for both Tuluki and Allanaki players alike).

My question: What can we do as players and staff to ensure that both the north and south are adequately populated during the final months of Armageddon? I find it disheartening to see seventy players in the known world, only to find myself as the only one in a city-state. Something is very wrong with this picture, and I'd like to open up a discussion where everyone can present constructive ideas and hypotheses as to what we should do and how we should do it.

I just find it unfair to all of us that Tuluk is apparently getting the shaft at the moment. It's always been the butt of jokes and people's ridicule, and I believe that the misconceptions and stigma regarding its style of play and level of harshness have unduly given it a bad rap - that is to say, the majority of players seem to think of Tuluk as a toned down, weak alternative to the might/grit of Allanak.

Your comments? Please, don't post rude remarks in this thread. We as a community should not tolerate childish behavior, and I'd hate to see this thread locked by staff. Let's not disappoint each other - instead, let's come together and see what we can do to fix what I perceive as a big big problem.

[Marauder Moe]

Tuluk is underpopulated?  I thought it was Allanak that was underpopulated right now.

[moab]

Tuluk is an interesting idea and I think that if there were only one city to survive in Arm2, it would be Tuluk.  And I say this as a die-hard southerner who has not played more than a few hours in new Tuluk.

I think there is potential in Tuluk, but that potential is better realized in Arm2 as it doesn't fit well in the current Arm.

This hurts me to say as I love Allanak.  I love the gritty dirty, filthy hole of a city.  I like that.

The alleys system in Tuluk, blows (actually I dislike much of the map, it doesn't feel organic enough to me).  I hope the next builders discover the secrets that make the 'rinth work and somehow incorporate that into the next version.

Didn't mean to segue, just thinking out loud.

[Malken]

I don't want to derail too much, but I just don't know where to play anymore..

I create a character in Tuluk, spend hours sitting in the Sanctuary, I see almost no one, yet the 'who' says there's 40 players online..

I retire and create a character in Allanak, spend hours sitting in the Barrel and the Gaj, I see almost no one, yet the 'who' says there's 40 players online..

So should I retire now yet again and play in Tuluk? Meh..

[ale six]

I think that you're overgeneralising and stereotyping yourself with some of the things you've said, FJ.

Allanak is more overt and outright, while Tuluk is far more cerebral, or internal. In short, I think that in some aspects it is more difficult to play in Tuluk than in Allanak, for to be truly successful as an individual there, you must learn to use your wits and simultaneously master the art of manipulation/alteration.

Politics in Allanak are more overt, I'll agree. Politics in Tuluk are quieter but just as strong. In BOTH cities, you will need to use your wits and need to be able to manipulate. I don't think it's fair to say either city is more cerebral or that either city has any more internal politics than the other.

I just find it unfair to all of us that Tuluk is apparently getting the shaft at the moment. It's always been the butt of jokes and people's ridicule, and I believe that the misconceptions and stigma regarding its style of play and level of harshness have unduly given it a bad rap - that is to say, the majority of players seem to think of Tuluk as a toned down, weak alternative to the might/grit of Allanak.

I'm with Moe - I thought this was true in reverse, funnily enough. With all the changes and all the "brave, new system" talk about Tuluk on the boards lately, I've honestly felt like poor old decrepit Allanak was the one losing attention.

I've played in both cities and had fun in both of them. To be honest, what I dislike more than anything is propaganda and fanboy/girlism about anything in the game, be that Tuluk, Allanak, Kurac, desert elves, or whatever. It's easy to ruffle feathers with attitudes like that, even unintentionally, and especially when players in other parts of the game that aren't populated enough for their liking start feeling like you're trying to steal players from "their" city.

With that said, I guess you're trying to start a discussion on how to keep the cities populated in the final months of the game. I'll be honest and say that if my PC died tomorrow, I would be less likely to start a new one in Tuluk than I would elsewhere. This is nothing against Tuluk or the new system or the people playing there. I'm really not wanting to play a loyalist or somebody that wants to 'live by the system' as my next role, and it seems most of the potential and fun in Tuluk is when you are either a servant of partisan of somebody, or a 'licensed' criminal. Allanak has the Labyrinth and the outposts and tribals don't have strong and powerful law enforcement to hinder characters trying to keep a low profile and stay out of the notice of important people. I feel like Tuluk is missing that unsanctioned crime element to the extent that other places have it. Sure, you can play a licensed partisan assassin/thief type person and have lots of fun, but that isn't the route I'd want to go. The most interesting Tuluki concept to me right now would be a hidden mage, and I doubt she would live long.

So that's just my personal opinion. Take it for whatever you will.

[Agent_137]

play a character that draws people to you.

Or go live in Red Storm. Allanak is gritty? Pssha.

And honestly, I couldn't give two shits about tuluk's population level. It's getting an appearance in the next game, whereas all my favorite places are more than likely just going to be wiped off the map.

[Gimfalisette]

I think it's safe to say that both cities have been suffering from the 25% loss in playerbase we've had since the announcement of 2.ARM. I do not know whether this is compounded by people playing characters in more isolated or remote areas of the game or not...but it's possible. Tuluk isn't alone in its pain at the moment.

[Malken]

I think the biggest problem we face right now is that we can't even begin to start shutting down clans or places to play because some players will come and tell us that this is their favorite spot to play in and without it they'll quit the game.

We can't shut down the 'rinth, because some prefers to play the really gritty aspect of living in Allanak..

We can't shut down any desert elf tribes because some prefers to play in one, while others prefer to play in the other, and some only wants to play desert elves, and some have already established desert elf characters..

We can't shut down Tuluk, because that's risking losing a really huge part of the playerbase..

Can't shut down Luir's because it's still one of the only place where I know I'll always find someone to roleplay with, easily.. And some very old characters live there..

So what can we really do about it? Should we just start taking risks and saying, well, it's better to lose maybe 5% of our playerbase if we shut down the desert elves, hoping that some will relocate, than them drawing in players from where the rest of the playerbase play? (Not targetting desert elves in particular, it is just an example...)

Should we start denying applications for lone mages, but then, some only still play to try out the classes they haven't been able to play yet before the game ends... So what's to do?

I think we're just all sitting tight, hoping that it will get better with time, but I don't know, maybe we should just be happy at this point and let it slide till Arm2 is up and running..

So I guess my point is that it's nothing wrong with Tuluk, we just have less players spread out everywhere.. (Heck, c'mon, halflings at this point?) So it's hard to squeeze them all back together without upsetting a few..

[Rindan]

I have a feeling Tuluk is suffering more from the fact that everyone has karma and a desire to see the world before it goes away then anything else.  If everyone and their dog is a magiker or desert elf, then Tuluk is going to take a population hit.  Even Allanak is looking a little sparse these days.

As far as issues with Tuluk 'not Zalanthas enough', you can take that however you want.  Tuluk is not Allanak.  Many people consider Allanak to be as Zalanthas as it gets.  

I hit up Tuluk for the first time in a RL year or two.  The plot stuff going on looks neat, but the city itself is still a turn off.  The ways in which Tuluk doesn't stack up against Allanak for me are simple.

1)  The Tuluk wilderness is both rich in resources and not terribly dangerous.  Don't argue that Tuluk has its own dangers.  Yes it does have its own dangers, but they are easy to avoid once you know the area.  The area is rich with critters that a ranger can easily kill and skin.  Compare this to Allanak where there are few critters, almost all of which will tear the head off a lone ranger.

2)  Tuluk's lawless and quasi-lawless areas really suck in terms of practical use for a criminal.  You need lawless areas with access to the city and bars if you want lawless thugs.

3)  Tuluk's map is a real turn off for a lot of people.  There are a lot of well patrolled roads and only a handful of alleyways.  The map is massive, yet filled with a lot of nothing in many areas.  It feels less like one city and more like half a dozen different villages that have been abandoned by PCs.  Either you are in the Sanc, or you will never see another player again.

I don't think anything can be done about the stuff that turns me off from Tuluk.  Some people are just never going to really enjoy Tuluk because they like a certain type of gritty experience that Tuluk doesn't do a good job offering up.  That isn't to say that Tuluk is a safe and happy place, just that it does some things poorly.

The only thing I can think of to make Tuluk more attractive is to A) more plots to attract people B) close down some iso clans (and risk pissing off iso players) C) cut off peoples' karma so they stop making whirians and desert elves to go exploring.

I doubt that B or C is going to happen.

[Impska]

Obviously the content of this post has been edited too much to be a valid contribution.

Rock on Tulukis. Good luck.

[Coat of Arms]

I think much of the hostility toward Tuluk comes from elitism. Everybody knows that Tuluk has become synonymous with 'easy'. Living costs substantially less than in Allanak, mainly in terms of food and drink. Some of the easiest creatures in the whole world are crammed up in a neat circle around the city. The weather is usually pretty forgiving compared to other parts of the world. Brutality and oppression is less evident, and you can even steal and kill legally if you've paid the rather cheap price to become a licensed thief or assassin. You don't run the risk of getting killed while passing through the gates with a grain of spice. You don't see magickers every single day (unless you take two steps outside the gates), and people wear sexy clothes. This makes a good portion of the playerbase view the place as a sort of easy-mode the way it always happens in any competitive online game, and a bunch of players end up disliking another group of players just because they think their own ways are better.

I've never given Tuluk a decent chance because every time I've been there, the place has been all but deserted with nothing awesome immediately evident. Being mostly off-peak, I just don't have the energy to try an area known for its low population because often I struggle enough to find interaction in Allanak. It's a vicious circle for many players who take a quick look, decide that it's not worth it and leave, the result being that the next player does the same and only a small part of them decide to stick around. Apart from that, I've always found Tuluk to be a bit too dynamic. I never really know where I've got things there. Whenever I visit there's something new going on, new Noble Houses opened up for players, a new area built, a focus shifted from bards to merchants to the Noble House men-at-arms and back to bards. In Allanak I have a strange sense of security in that I actually know much of what goes on there without even playing in the city, just because it hasn't ever changed much. Some would find that bad but I always liked it.

For me to become interested in Tuluk, it would take something to convince me that I won't end up spending 90% of my time alone there, and that I have a good chance of getting involved in something interesting without being a bard or a noble's partizan. It seems to be leaning in the right direction lately and I might try it out if/when by current character dies, but I know I'll still be apprehensive because almost all of my visits to the place were met either with characters trying way too hard to be fun-loving hippie types who lurve music, or with nothing at all.

Another thing I was wondering, inspired by some old post on the GDB, is whether or not licensed thieves can be profitable for the city at all. Assassination seems fine to me, both because it creates interesting conflict and a sense of danger, and because there's some serious money in that. But legal theft... I just never saw how that could turn out to favor the city in any way. For as long as I've played, every apartment in the city has been burglarized on a daily basis to the point where some players complain that they can't rent a room for one RL day without finding the door open next time they log in. That has got to piss Nenyuk off. Rich merchants losing goods regularly must affect the economy as well. Nothing much happens if Random Amos loses his dagger, but wide-spread theft from anyone with influence must have a negative effect on the system in one way or the other. All this criminal money goes straight into the pocket of the licensed thieves, and what does the Templarate gain? A one-time fee of like 300 'sid for each thief who might steal tens of thousands worth during their career. Don't try to tell me that these thefts would happen anyway because there's no way the city won't have seen an increase in criminal activity after making it legal.

Edit to add, after reading the other replies: And yes, I haven't ever heard of a thriving lawless-type criminal underground in Tuluk. You get the occasional guy trying to set something up in Under-Tuluk but I've never seen it succeed. Any undesirable play seems to be quickly thwarted by the templars. Big negative in my book.

[Tarx]

Well, I'll go ahead and say the ooc complication of not having people around to do things no longer is a problem.  I will agree readily that it was, probably...maybe two months ago.  Even a month ago.  But after some determined play and IC activity, people have begun to show up at all times in Tuluk.  There's quite a few off-peak players that choose Tuluk as their haunts for playing now.

I assure you that there are a few characters involved up North now that probably aren't your typical fun-loving hippy-types.  Subtle, like the North is supposed to be, but not as bouncy-happy as I have seen the North portrayed in the past.

As far as the thief thing...it can be profitable in ways you may not be thinking of.  The "city" can likely set up agreements with thieves, and so can various individuals.  And sometimes profit can't really be measured in terms of obsidian coins or assets, but in prestige and confidence.

Yes, while the landscape up north seems to be dynamic, it doesn't change too terribly quickly--and there are some things that pretty much always remain the same.  I've had more fun organizing and playing the Northlands in the past months than I've had in quite some time.

With that said, I enjoy Allanak too, for other reasons, and I enjoy Luir's as well.  I don't think it's so much about the places as much as the people that make those places come to life.

[Salt Merchant]

What do you call a male ladybug?

Why are softballs hard?

Why do we scrub down and wash up?

How fast do hotcakes sell?

If everything sticks to crazy glue, then why doesn't it stick to the bottle?

Why do people jump on me for mentioning things I read in a few earlier threads, and not on the people that wrote them then?

[Delirium]

Um, guys. You keep referring to something that is not in the documentation and, though relatively widespread knowledge among PCs in the game world, should not be spoiled for those who don't know it already by blabbing about it on the GDB.

Gosh.

[spawnloser]

I was just going to say what Delirium said to Impska and Salt Merchant.  Stop talking about something that isn't in the documentation, even if you're not coming right out and saying it... you may as well be because you're saying what happens, which begs the cause.  Please edit your posts.

Staff, if they don't edit them quick-like, would you please fix the issue in their posts?

[Gimfalisette]

While everyone knows I'm a fan of Tuluk, I'm not here to try to defend that sphere of play in the game. What I want to do is offer a bit of a different perspective on Tuluk, Allanak, and really most any area of the game.

The problem with Tuluk is that the majority of the people who play there don't play the culture properly.

Incidentally, this is also the problem with Allanak. It's also the problem with the 'rinth. I'd venture to guess it's the problem with any area of the game.

The issue with not playing the culture properly means both that it's not being correctly modeled for those who are new to the area, and the experience of game play in that area is just not as rich and deep as it potentially could be.

Note: In all of the below examples, I am mostly talking about general commoner PCs. Leader PCs, especially nobles and templars, often do a good job modeling their cultures or at least goodly chunks of culture.

Examples: In Tuluk, there is hardly anyone who can actually "do" subtlety or adequately understand it when it's done to them. There are few players who show an appreciation for Tuluki history. There is little of the sense of deep-rooted traditionalism that there should be. Almost no one can actually explain the partisan system and how it came to be. There are almost no players who really display understanding of the caste system, the social distinctions therein, and have the proper attitude of disgust toward ideas of inter-caste sex. Most Gol-Krathu born PCs are completely ignorant of Poets' Circle and bards; let alone appreciating bards! Almost no one shows the correct attitude toward the theft/assassination licensing system, ESPECIALLY if they're the amateur getting thrown in jail. Very few players are aware of the meaning of the various tattoos that PCs -should- be wearing a lot more of.

In Allanak, it's not -quite- as bad, but there are still significant gaps in cultural understanding and play. (IMO, it's not as bad because Allanak's culture is a bit more obvious and easier in some ways.) Examples: Very few characters seem to understand that the rigid social structure is enforced through open, brutal displays of power. Almost no PCs know how to play the corruption/bribery game. Wealth is not treated like the social signifier it should be. PCs constantly seem to overestimate their own social standing and underestimate the standing of those around them, because they lack understanding of the social structure. Sex is not understood and used as the power tool it should be. PCs tend to be non-confrontational or non-brutal, unless they're being stupidly confrontational with the wrong people. (Again, clueless about the power structure.) PCs seem to not understand that the many honorifics, bows, salutes and so on that are employed are not -optional-, but rather another tool for enforcing power.

If you think that everyone in Tuluk is playing by the rules, and that makes things boring, then to be honest you don't even know what the rules really are. Likewise, if you can't get into playing a partisan in Tuluk, then you're willfully missing out on a huge part of what it really means to play in Tuluk.

As to why things have never gotten set up in Under Tuluk (especially now that the access issues are fixed), I believe the problem there is one of people not understanding the culture AND it's also that there hasn't been strong PC leadership to do this. I have -never- seen a templar try to squish any effort in this direction; in fact, I've seen both nobles and templars try to encourage it. However, on the side of the commoner PCs trying to set it up, mostly what I've seen is gross incompetence, misunderstanding of the culture, and weak, short-term efforts.

But again, I'm not trying to cheerlead for any particular area of the game. I just think ALL areas of the game would be much better served if the PCs there really got deeply into the culture and played it to the hilt.

[Aquarian]

Once again Gim, you prove that you know everything and you are the only person that knows how to play Arm.  They should make a server just for you, that way you can make sure only cool people like you can play. I think all of us that just "don't get it" would be happier knowing an elitest that talks out of her ass just to hear herself talk wasn't sitting amongst us.

[Dalmeth]

Once again Gim, you prove that you know everything and you are the only person that knows how to play Arm.  They should make a server just for you, that way you can make sure only cool people like you can play. I think all of us that just "don't get it" would be happier knowing an elitest that talks out of her ass just to hear herself talk wasn't sitting amongst us.

:shock: Huh?

[Tarx]

Well, I agreed with Gim, so I guess that makes me an elitist as well.  I just didn't see the need to post that I agreed with her.  She knows I do.  But thanks for those encouraging words--I'm sure she will appreciate it!

[Aquarian]

Don't get me wrong.. I'm all for putting forth the best effort and getting into the game. But time after time Gim seems to make stuff up, or if she doesn't understand something she just assumes it isn't there. Every post I see from her is a disgusting effort at word count rather than making a real point.

[Tarx]

Oh.  Well, in that case.

This board is for general discussion of Armageddon MUD. No flames, no IC-sensitive information.

Now play nice and structure your comments in a constructive manner.  I'm sure that'd be more kosher.  There's no reason to get all pissed off.  Gim has a right to an opinion, same as anyone else...

[Ourla]

Alright, let's stop the flaming right now.  Shalooonsh has already warned us against it.

I agree with Gimfalisette.  A big part of understanding the culture of Tuluk is playing in it.  The docs give a general outline of what is expected of PCs there, but it's definitely going to be difficult to RP the culture unless you've been immersed in it and you've seen it in action.  In my opinion, it's really about caring to take the time to educate oneself about the city, ICly and OOCly both.

I'll say, when you see what a well-played Circle bard or a partisan/patron who knows the system can do -- and to my great joy, I've had the pleasure of seeing plenty of both -- the differences between Tuluk and Allanak become obvious.  The more I play this game, the more I appreciate those very differences.  Everything from clothing and fighting styles to favored food spices to being blatant or subtle, the opportunities to roleplay cultural indicators are vast and very, very fun.

Edited to add:

But time after time Gim seems to make stuff up, or if she doesn't understand something she just assumes it isn't there.

I saw nothing in that post that was anything but truth or opinion.  To make this a profitable discussion, it could help immensely if we all address ideas, rather than players.

[Only He Stands There]

I agree with Gimf, too, honestly. Half the Tuluki PCs I've seen have no idea how to properly portray subtlety, and a good half of Allanaki PCs play either A) squeamish nauseated-by-the-sight-of-blood people, or B) nobody's-better-than-me, fucking-Templars-are-dumbasses, nobles-are-just-rich-jackasses type folk, despite the documentation clearly stating that the societal norm in Allanak is that people love bloodshed and know that the nobility (and, therefore, Templarate) is inherently better than them from birth

C'est la vie. Be the change you seek.

[manonfire]

lol, tuluk

[Ourla]

... and know that the nobility (and, therefore, Templarate) is inherently better than them from birth.

This is a huge one in both cities, in my experience.  It's unquestioned by the common caste and the noble castes.  Repeat: unquestioned.  Status in general seems to be seen as a grey area by players sometimes, especially the merchant houses.

[MoosesRock]

I'm going to have to disagree with Gimf's post.  I haven't played recently in Tuluk, but that has not been my experience in Allanak.   I see bribery, brutality, and fear on a daily basis.  Sure some of us have our off days and sometimes we screw up.  Occasionally, there's someone who just doesn't get it and they usually aren't around for long.

I personally have faith that many Arm players are "getting it" and that is what keeps us all coming back for more.

[Tarx]

This is a huge one in both cities, in my experience. It's unquestioned by the common caste and the noble castes. Repeat: unquestioned. Status in general seems to be seen as a grey area by players sometimes, especially the merchant houses.

I recall a conversation between a noble and a commoner pc (sometime in the past month).  The commoner stated something like "at some point, someone had to become noble" or "well all nobles used to be commoners, right?"  to which the answer was just, flatly, "no," with no further dwelling on the issue.  It made me giggle on the inside.

[Gimfalisette]

This is a huge one in both cities, in my experience. It's unquestioned by the common caste and the noble castes. Repeat: unquestioned. Status in general seems to be seen as a grey area by players sometimes, especially the merchant houses.

I recall a conversation between a noble and a commoner pc (sometime in the past month).  The commoner stated something like "at some point, someone had to become noble" or "well all nobles used to be commoners, right?"  to which the answer was just, flatly, "no," with no further dwelling on the issue.  It made me giggle on the inside.

Some of the Chosen Houses of Tuluk trace their nobility back to this event on the history timeline:

c.400 A hitherto unkown warrior named Muk Utep sacks the twelve tribes at Gol Krathu with an army of terrible barbarians out of the northwest.

Making them noble for over a thousand years. Heh. I believe the same is true of Allanak's nobility, they have been noble for centuries, minimally. But regardless, in Tuluk, the whole idea of being "Chosen" (after the end of the Occupation) is that the nobles were hand-picked by Muk Utep Himself because THEY ARE BETTER. They're Chosen for a reason, and the reason is their superiority. You weren't Chosen? That means you're not superior!

[Tisiphone]

Of course, -really- elitist-snob Chosen (who are also up on their history) will point out that Muk Utep didn't just randomly Choose them out of a crowd. They were leaders and higher castes in their tribes before, and better lieutenants/commanders/whathaveyou than the others. So being Chosen simply meant being recognized, rather than being different.

[Malken]

I'm much better than any of the Chosen, Muk Utep is wrong. It's a shame they just keep on killing me and not allowing me to prove it, each time I say so.

[vissa]

My own reluctance to play in Tuluk stems from two things:

1. Of the two cities, it seems to be more hit-and-miss in terms of off-peak activity.  (That said, I recently gave it a whirl and was pleasantly surprised.  My fellow off-peakers, take note.)

2. The feeling, one that seems well supported by some of the posts in this thread, that unless you play Tuluki characters frequently, or are lucky enough to come across someone who does and is willing to teach you (not a guarantee for an off-peaker), you are never going to really get it.  I cannot begin to express how discouraging that is.  

I don't have any interest in playing a character (or several) who's seen ICly as an idiot and OOCly as the product of yet another player who's doing it wrong, just so that eventually I can play a character who might manage to fit in.  On the other hand, if I thought I had a better chance of getting it right - or at least right enough - the first time, I'd be far more inclined to give Tuluk a chance.  I doubt that I'm the only one who thinks this way.

So Tuluki-for-lifers who are discouraged by a low player count in Tuluk, help people like me help people like you.

Joe Tuluki Commoner should apparently know at least something about the history of Tuluk, social castes, bards, patronage, etc.  All of those things are more or less covered in the documentation.  But some of the things I've read in this thread aren't.  To pluck a few examples..

In Tuluk, there is hardly anyone who can actually "do" subtlety or adequately understand it when it's done to them.

This comes up in every single thread that I've ever read about Tuluk, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone give concrete examples of "subtle" vs. "not subtle" behavior.  I haven't the faintest idea how easy this one would be to answer without picking on specific characters, but it would be nice to know what sort of statements or situations prompt the "no one can do subtle" comments.  Subtlety is very subjective, but it would be nice to have some general guidelines.

Very few players are aware of the meaning of the various tattoos that PCs -should- be wearing a lot more of.

Is this just in reference to the caste tattoos, or are there other tattoos that have a commonly known meaning, but just don't happen to be included in any readily-available documentation anywhere?

Stuff about Under Tuluk.

If it wasn't for the GDB, I wouldn't know that Under Tuluk existed.  Is it mentioned in the docs at all?  Is it just Tuluk's version of the 'Rinth?  Would regular commoners know anything about it?  The lack of information about the place might account in large part for the perception that there is no functioning criminal element in the city.

Any other tips for Tuluki newbies?

[Jherlen]

In Tuluk, there is hardly anyone who can actually "do" subtlety or adequately understand it when it's done to them.

This comes up in every single thread that I've ever read about Tuluk, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone give concrete examples of "subtle" vs. "not subtle" behavior.  I haven't the faintest idea how easy this one would be to answer without picking on specific characters, but it would be nice to know what sort of statements or situations prompt the "no one can do subtle" comments.  Subtlety is very subjective, but it would be nice to have some general guidelines.

I've always felt like Tuluk is a huge, huge city, and not everyone living there grows up living and breathing subtlety. In the common classes, especially, not everyone is going to be a subtle Machiavelli or a plotting backstabber. Subtlety is an art the Faithful and Chosen appreciate, and their servants/partisans emulate, but there are plenty of clay diggers, hunters, lumberjacks, shoemakers, etc. who are just not subtle plotting backstabby people, and don't need to be. It gets you ahead in Tuluk just as cleverness and wits will get you ahead anywhere else, so it's a bonus, but I don't think it's a steadfast requirement.

With that said: Subtlety by itself is hard to really put a finger on in terms of specific actions. It's more of an approach. When your character wants to accomplish something, the subtle way would be quiet, clean, simple and elegant. It's the difference between a few silent stabs of a knife and a bunch of messy clubs to the head.

If you dislike a certain bard, say, the overt and obvious way to express that would be to sneer, jeer, be rude and interrupt their performance, yawn, etc. More subtle ways to show that would be to not tip, tip a very small amount, always find ways to excuse yourself when the bard starts to play, never invite them to play for you, or give them some sort of non-compliment after they've finished ("Why that was lovely lute work, Rosie, it reminds me of the tunes my sister used to play when we were five.")

If someone has insulted you, the overt and obvious way to get back at them would be to gather some thugs together and beat them to a bloody pulp in the street (I imagine, even in Tuluk, this will happen among lower class folks in shady neighborhoods.) More subtle ways to get back at the insult: pay a thief to nick their things or rob their house, start a whisper campaign against their business, invite them over for poisoned tea, get nobles and templars to harass them, etc.

Stuff about Under Tuluk.

If it wasn't for the GDB, I wouldn't know that Under Tuluk existed.  Is it mentioned in the docs at all?  Is it just Tuluk's version of the 'Rinth?  Would regular commoners know anything about it?  The lack of information about the place might account in large part for the perception that there is no functioning criminal element in the city.

I recall (but am too lazy to look for) seeing some very brief docs on UT. It's not a starting location to my knowledge, so I think it's less well-known and less populous than the Labyrinth. The average person has probably heard whispers and rumors of there being places "under Tuluk" that scary things and criminals will hide in, but not much more.

[spawnloser]

A few easy tips on being subtle...

1 - When saying anything that you would expect a Bynner to say, don't say it.  Say something else that let's the person hearing know exactly what you would have said but in prettier words.

2 - When saying anything that could offend, don't say it.  Find something else to say that gets the general message across, but gives the person being spoken to no excuse to get offended with you.

3 - If someone saw you do something bad, you're doing it wrong.

[ale six]

When I was playing my Tuluki artisan/burglar/terrorist, I got to have lots of fun doing subtle things.

When breaking into somebody's apartment, for example, even if she never took anything she would always leave a marker - usually an izdari knight piece if she had any. This became her sort of "calling card". More often than not the burglary victims would go around asking rather openly if anyone knew which burglar left izdari knights behind -- this let my girl know who she was stealing from, so she could decide whether she wanted to rob them more (or sometimes give their stuff back). She could learn all this without saying a word to anyone or revealing her identity as the Izdari Knight, all by relying on the upset furor of victims of theft.

She worked for Tenneshi, back in the days when Tuluki noble politics were mainly just Winrothol vs. Tenneshi snipe-fests. There was one Winrothol dwarf who was being rather annoying to us. I forget what he was doing but I think it was something like trying to steal recruits/partisans over to Winrothol or something like that. Anyway, after a very brief and snippy exchange, she just smiles and tells him she's sure the misunderstanding won't be anything to worry about, while privately deciding she's going to get this guy good.

About five minutes later she eavesdrops on the dwarf ordering a tent from Kurac and paying like 1500 coins or something for it. She watches as he picks it up and takes it back to his apartment. Having done her homework, she knows where that is, so an IC day or so later she breaks in and loots the brand new tent, leaving her calling card. The next week the dwarf is in the Sanctuary virtually interrogating anyone who looks shady about if they're the Izdari Knight or not. He asks my girl (who looks like an artisan stonecarver, not a shady type), and she just shrugs and shakes her head. Soon the dwarf orders ANOTHER 1500 coin tent from Kurac and carries it home, once again right in front of my girl. Once again she waits, then breaks in and steals it. This time the dwarf had hidden the tent in his kitchen cabinet. She felt a little bad about robbing him so bad, though, so the second time she left him a whole izdari set.

I was having fun with that guy, sadly I think he got ate by halflings a few days later. But there's a little taste of subtleness and thievery for you.

[bardess]

I must say I agree that Tuluk has a fairly steep learning curve.  The populace of Tuluk are expected to know a lot about their culture.  Some of this is in the docs, but how can we expect you to memorize it?  I learned it from solid play with solid mentors in Tuluk.  Even after nearly two years of play I didn't even know the UnderTuluk existed until a month or so ago, and I didn't know how to get into it until recently...

But anyways, I know for a fact that characters who don't know their stuff are penalized, and this, their players are discouraged.  I've done it myself.  Yes, that's right, I'm quite guilty.  I've playe din Tuluk so long that much of the cultural information is second nature to me, and when I'm playing as my character, I often forget to think about what the player might be thinking.  A little later it'll occur to me and then I'll kick myself for probably sending another player into the Allanakki oblivion.

I think everyone really over-emphasis the subtley of Tuluk.  Most of the subtley you'll see, as soneone said previously, is the duty of the upper castes.  Aside from that, a lot of it that you'll see is with people of importance, such as Circle bards (Seekers and Bards more than Apprentices, for example), Merchant House employees and leaders, and Legionnares.  A commoner would follow some simple guidelines like spawnloser and Jherlen pointed out.  Look at subtley as something more like sarcasm and less like blantant flaming, to put it in incredibly, incredibly simple terms.

Honestly, the problem with Tuluk is that there isn't really any problem.  It's just diversity of IC life and OOC players.  Armageddon is a game.  Yes, there are rules and documentation that we play by, but we're all different, and we all play a bit differently.  Tuluk fits my style.  It isn't just surface play 100% of the time.  I'm not a fan of gore.  I don't want to be severly incapitated by money and authoritative struggle ICly-- I do that OOCly!  I just want some flavor.  So I will mind my business (and a bit of yours when I'm recruiting) in Tuluk, and you can mind yours in Allanak.

C'mon.  It's not so bad.  I haven't seen much of it in this thread, but in others, it just makes sense.  If you hate Tuluk?

Don't play in Tuluk.

Let us have our fun.

EDIT: Doesn't everyone know by now that I can't type?  I feel sorry for the players who RP with me.  Good grief!

[elvenchipmunk]

Oh, about the Tuluk underground/Old City/Old Ruins whatever you wanna call them, an imm (Bakha) recently - as in within the last year - did some work on the ruins so they are now different and a lot easier to notice!

They're an interesting place, to say the least. I couldn't find anything in the docs about them save for the Tuluk Map, so hopefully it'll help out if someone's trying to find the Old City.

So, check out the 'map tuluk' (help map tuluk) helpfile to get at least a small idea of where they are, and if interested, go look around there! Bakha did a great job on them and it'd be a shame if so few people ever actually got a look at them.

Edit: Found something useful -

Taken from http://www.armageddon.org/intro/underTuluk.html

If you grew up in UnderTuluk...
...while Tuluk's all-seeing and all-knowing Templarate seems to pervade the city, ruling with their benevolent, firm fist, there exists another realm of the Sun King; a cavernous netherworld where even His light does not pierce: Undertuluk.

Consisting of collapsed sections of the original destroyed city, UnderTuluk is a network of natural caves and tunnels interspersed with derelict domiciles and ruins. In this underbelly a thriving alternative to Tuluki society dwells, carving out a living from dishonest trade, black market dealings, crime and all manner of villainy. While there is a central market area, called the Shadow Souk, where trade takes place freely and those so inclined may venture with comparatively little risk to life or limb, as one moves beyond the beaten path dangers increase.

The gangs, predatory groups that claim parts of the tunnels for themselves, have splashed graffiti on tunnel walls, a constantly changing testimony of the wins and losses of unceasing battles for limited resources and territory. Some areas are so dark and dangerous even the gangs won't venture into: environs ruled by rumors of walking corpses that feed on the flesh of the living and bubbles of vile magick that burst in reality-warping occurrences to challenge the sanity of any soul unfortunate enough to happen upon them. Still, there are those, drawn by the tales of untold riches of old Tuluk, just waiting to be uncovered, who risk their lives to go ever further into the cavernous network, hoping to one day find some noble's ancient cache of heirlooms or the find of all finds, metal.

The residents of UT are the dregs and outcasts of society. Mutants, deviants, criminals, and misanthropes they congregate in the caverns and are joined by one common theme: they hate and in turn are hated by the surface world. Whether a born rebel, disgusted by the totalitarian regime of the Dominion or a psychopath, unable to satisfy its sadistic impulses within sight of the Templarate, all walks of life can be found. Varying degrees of hatred are common. Some feel a mild dislike and aversion to the surface while others are downright murderous toward surface dwellers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2006 Armageddon Mud
Submitted by Bakha

Bit of a derail, but hopefully that'll help a couple people.

[Mudder]

Oh, about the Tuluk underground/Old City/Old Ruins whatever you wanna call them, an imm (I forget which, sorry!) recently - as in within the last year - did some work on the ruins so they are now different and a lot easier to notice!

They're an interesting place, to say the least. I couldn't find anything in the docs about them save for the Tuluk Map, so hopefully it'll help out if someone's trying to find the Old City.

So, check out the 'map tuluk' (help map tuluk) helpfile to get at least a small idea of where they are, and if interested, go look around there! The imm did a great job on them and it'd be a shame if so few people ever actually got a look at them.

You would be referring to Bakha, and yeah, he did a good job at revamping the Old Ruins.

[Tisiphone]

'tis in the docs, in a strange place, considering 'tisn't a starting location.

[WWYD]

It used to be. I think it got removed for..

no idea, actually.

[Rhyden]

So,

If everyone agrees with Gimfalisette, who are all these 'majority' players who are completely clueless as to the culture they're playing in. Sorry, Gim, but that statement is a little much. Sure, a few newer players may not 'get it' for a little while, but to say that the majority of players don't get culture in either of the city-states or otherwise, is blatantly ignorant.

If we players were so oblivious to the 'correct' culture play, I'm sure the imms would have done something by now.

Also, I don't think Tuluk is %100 subtle. What about the street sweepers? The bakers and candlestick makers? Do they have to subtly sweep their broom and leave just a bit of kank dung on the road which is actually a secret message that they hate the last guy who walked along the road?

No. Because Tuluk isn't %100 subtle. The Nobles, Templars and bards I've seen have always done quite well at being subtle in Tuluk. Even a few commoners have their subtle moments. But I don't think you can lable Tuluk with that one overused word. It would be like saying America is 'bold' therefore, all Americans have to act bold.  

The majority of players I've seen in both cultures during my time here get the culture they're playing in. I don't see where you get that idea.

[Forest Junkie]

A-fucking-men Rhyden.

[ale six]

The biggest problem is the OOC divisiveness, fanboy/girlism, propagandising, and recruitment that goes on on the GDB that separates players across lines of where they currently play or like to play.

Statements like "sending players into the Allanaki oblivion" are completely unhelpful and really do not encourage me to want to come play with their posters at all. I say this as somebody who's played in both cities and liked both.

Rhyden's post is also very true, IMO. If someone doesn't get the culture, they're doing something like spitting at nobles, challenging templars to duels, etc. Those types of people learn quick. Being an unsubtle Tuluki or a Allanaki who doesn't get off on seeing people die in the arena is not not understanding the culture; it's just playing somebody who's not going to mesh with the accepted norms set down by the upper caste.

[Malken]

I don't think there's a need for Gimfalibashing, she's helped me more than anyone else both ICly and OOCly to get in the right culture mindset of where I play.

On the flip side, I must say that sometime the whole 'subtle' thing of Tuluk can be very annoying and confusing, especially for a new player, because it seems, that often, no matter what you do, a mistake or not, and you think you've screwed up, you go to your superior and the only answer you ever get is a smile and a, "Don't worry about it." which pretty much leaves you clueless to know if you REALLY made a mistake or not..

Sometimes the "Don't worry about it." equals them going to get a license to kill you, or the, "Don't worry about it." equals what it really means.. So in the end you never really get to learn about the culture or from your mistakes until its too late and you're dead.

[FightClub]

I actually started as a newbie in Tuluk, and played my first three or so characters there because I understood more about the environment than anywhere else (speaking of my familiarity of locations of course, I had no fucking clue what was going on in Tuluk beyond that).  After meeting Bahamet, Tembo, and the numerous city dwelling beasts disguised in red and white robes -- I decided to try Allanak.

I've had one or maybe two characters start out in Tuluk since then out of my twenty total.  I've just concluded Tuluk isn't for me, and on those past two characters the only reason I went to Tuluk was to force myself into a different environment in fear of accidentally acting out my old characters rp.

So, Tuluk isn't for everyone, I think the player base is an accurate display of that.  Not everyone has what it takes to be subtle or clever, or survive in the Tuluki environment, and still achieve what they want.  I do not believe the anti-Tuluki, anti-Allanaki propaganda shifts the playerbase at all.  Our players are not puppets, they make their own decisions, and conclusions, and will continue to.

[Nameless Face]

I don't think there's a need for Gimfalibashing...

Not my intent to bash Gimfalisette.  I think her (liberally paraphrased) answer to the topic of this thread,

"the most grevious problem about Tuluk is the players who play there"

kinda speaks for itself.

[Malken]

I don't think there's a need for Gimfalibashing...

Not my intent to bash Gimfalisette.  I think her (liberally paraphrased) answer to the topic of this thread,

"the most grevious problem about Tuluk is the players who play there"

kinda speaks for itself.

That's not what she said, what she said is:

The problem with Tuluk is that the majority of the people who play there don't play the culture properly.

And I think I agree with her a little, I have been playing in Tuluk forever and I'm still not convinced that anyone really understands the partizan-patron relationship, or that anyone really does it the way it should be done.

But considering that I am also mostly confused about it all often, I'm going to point a finger to myself first.

[FightClub]

If Gim is right, and...

The problem with Tuluk is that the majority of the people who play there don't play the culture properly.

Examples: In Tuluk, there is hardly anyone who can actually "do" subtlety or adequately understand it when it's done to them. There are few players who show an appreciation for Tuluki history. There is little of the sense of deep-rooted traditionalism that there should be. Almost no one can actually explain the partisan system and how it came to be. There are almost no players who really display understanding of the caste system, the social distinctions therein, and have the proper attitude of disgust toward ideas of inter-caste sex. Most Gol-Krathu born PCs are completely ignorant of Poets' Circle and bards; let alone appreciating bards! Almost no one shows the correct attitude toward the theft/assassination licensing system, ESPECIALLY if they're the amateur getting thrown in jail. Very few players are aware of the meaning of the various tattoos that PCs -should- be wearing a lot more of.

That is a problem.  Which I agree with, seeing that I've never learned the majority of that, then my question is to you all -- What can Tuluk do to change these things?  I have a proposal, if it hasn't been in action already.

In many clans you will receive lectures, in the Byn they tend to be fundamental boring time wasters, such as the mechanics of wielding a sword, but the one time I played in Tor -- I learned a whole hell of a lot about Southern Culture, its history, its geography and such.  My point is that if players don't know these very crucial things about being Tuluki, then it should be the responsibility of the clan leaders to teach them subtlety, the history of Tuluk, the partisan system, and everything they should know until they have it down.  Whether it should be expected to be known or not from character creation it should be taught by players who know the system, if that would possibly flesh out the Tuluki culture more.  If this is in fact the problem Tuluk is facing.

So my proposal is for clan leaders in Tuluk to add the curriculum of Tuluki basics to their list of things to teach their players...  I feel this is pretty necessary regardless of if this is the cause of Tuluk's problems, and honestly I wish someone had done something like this for me while I was there.

[Gimfalisette]

Bards of the Circle have, in the past, made themselves available for lessons on exactly this kind of thing to the common populace. Tutoring has been commissioned by templars and nobles. So, it's totally possible to get this in game, right now, for anyone who wants it.

[spawnloser]

Bards of the Circle are just as commonly dumbasses as the rest of the population of Tuluk.  They just as commonly misinterpret the documentation too.

[manonfire]

Bards of the Circle are just as commonly dumbasses as the rest of the population of Tuluk.  They just as commonly misinterpret the documentation too.

spawn, it isn't often that you make me laugh out of anything but spite, but i enjoyed a good gut-laugh there.

[Rhyden]

Bards of the Circle are just as commonly dumbasses as the rest of the population of Tuluk.  They just as commonly misinterpret the documentation too.

I agree somewhat.

If Gim's statement about the majority of Tuluk not knowing how to properly play in its culture is true, just as many circle bards are as ignorant as commoners in Tuluk.

But I think Spawn and Gim are both overexaggerating. Tuluk's culture isn't as complex as we make it out to be and most players I've seen can play in the culture and with the rest of the culture properly if not up to 'standard'.

[Bebop]

Bards of the Circle are just as commonly dumbasses as the rest of the population of Tuluk.  They just as commonly misinterpret the documentation too.

I agree somewhat.

If Gim's statement about the majority of Tuluk not knowing how to properly play in its culture is true, just as many circle bards are as ignorant as commoners in Tuluk.

But I think Spawn and Gim are both overexaggerating. Tuluk's culture isn't as complex as we make it out to be and most players I've seen can play in the culture and with the rest of the culture properly if not up to 'standard'.

I think players can play just fine in Tuluk but it is definitely a learning experience each time.  I had been playing over a year when I had a PC rooted in Tuluk and I was amazed by all of the subtle little quirks and history Tuluk has.  I've been a Tuluk fan girl ever since.  I went from playing nothing but Nakki's to Tuluki's all the way.  There is this ever present fear in Tuluk of saying anything out of line I love it.  Anyway, as far as the intricate ways of Tuluk there are alot of them that I don't think are apparent at face value.  With my second character I took a trip to Tuluk and the way everyone nodded at everyone and talked to everyone I told James, I was like wow!  Everyone is so nice in Tuluk!  When I played my character in Tuluk a year later I was like wtf... you soon begin to realize behind all of the protocal and formalities there is just as much emotion and room for plotlines as anything else.  But I think it is is harder to get the hang of the whole mind set of thievery or assasination being an art.  I've been playing over two years and I'm just starting to be able to comprehend that mindset without REALLY thinking everyone knows these people are dirty thieves!  That's just not how it is in Tuluk, I love it.

[Malifaxis]

Personally, I think the problem with Tuluk is the players.  The people who do know what they are doing are too stuck up and high on the knowledge that they are uber to come down and teach the peons.  The people who don't know, well, don't know.

Usually, however, the people who don't know also do know that saying that they don't know is unsubtle.  They don't know how to be subtle, but they do know what being unsubtle is.  Knowing that they can't be unsubtle (or they'll get laughed at/thrown out/forced to play with bards), they try to act, subtlely, like they know what they're doing.  This, naturally, does nothing but widen the gap.

On the subject of bards:  I've seen some incredibly well played bards.  Bards who were sneakier than the slick side of Drov's black bottom.  Bards who could get you to say fifteen incriminating things over a glass of wine, just by smiling.

I haven't seen anyone play a bard like that in the last three years RL.

I have seen bards who were as subtle as a zharal stoned mekillot wearing a fifty foot, humming, purple strap on dildo on their face.  I have seen bards who do nothing 'bardic' except for post board messages about how much someone sucks because they didn't buy them a frilly Kadian cockring.

I have seen more of these than I can count.

We -do- need Tuluki lessons on how to be all clandestine.  We -do- need people who know what the fuck they're doing to pass that knowledge on instead of sitting on it like a steel egg.  The problem is that the Tuluki society, IC, is an elitist lovenest, and that attitude bleeds over to the player's concept of who should play in Tuluk and how.  By playing an elitist, they begin to become an elitist, and aren't as willing to help people outside of the Treehugger Clique.

A wise mansa once said "Be the change you want."

Well?

[Gimfalisette]

As one of the most vocal posters on the forums about my love for Tuluk and its culture, and as someone who has played a lot over the past year in high-profile roles in Tuluk, I -could- take Malifaxis' post as being directed at me...but...

I'm not going to, because I know that I'm not "elitist."

I had the privilege of beginning to play in Tuluk at the time when marko was still playing there, and he taught me a huge amount, both ICly and OOCly. He also made me ICly teach other characters things they needed to know about Tuluki culture. Along the way I took up a significant leadership role, and then I had minions and I taught them too. Some of them also asked me OOC questions about Tuluki culture, to explain things from the documentation, or things they should have known that were not in the docs.

At this point, I know that I've personally tutored at least 5 to 10 players in the details of Tuluki culture. I've also spent a lot, lot, lot of time in game embodying whichever aspect of Tuluki culture I was playing at the time. So I feel pretty confident that I'm not "elitist." To the contrary, I'm actually quite inclusive; I'd love for everyone to feel like they were included and contributing.

I've been trying to think of some helpful things I could post on this thread, especially something about "how to be convincingly subtle." But my brain hasn't been able to wrap around that yet and form full thoughts. Other than that, if anyone DOES ever have any questions about Tuluk that they think I might be able to answer, I'd be happy to try to do that by PM.

Note: This does not mean that I think I'm the perfect Tuluki roleplayer. I have made a LOT of mistakes in Tuluk over time, and there are still some things I don't do well. But after like nine months of getting my mistakes beat out of me both ICly and OOCly by the authority structures in Tuluk, I learned a lot.

[LauraMars]

I think a lot of it has to do with reputation.  If someone has a reputation of being as subtle as a mekillot stoned on zharal wearing a fifty foot purple strap on, then they will remain thus, for the rest of their days.  Nobody will take them seriously, and go around snickering at them behind their back saying, "Oh that Sexbottom Irofel, they try to be so subtle. It's embarrassing."  And possibly, Sexbottom Irofel will be called terrible names and disrespected, until Sexbottom Irofel gets killed for being annoying.  All because they tried just too damn hard.

Subtly has a lot to do with how you are perceived by everyone else.  If you're perceived as something other than you really are, that's making a start.  If you're perceived as unimportant when you're really a threat, that's also good.  If you're not perceived at all, then I would like to relay some obsidian to you, by messenger, so that you don't kill my ass.

One tactic to try is to be humble and unassuming.  Not ACT like it, but really BE it.  Know your limits and don't try to exceed them. There's nothing subtle about arrogance, and you can do a lot of damage when you're meek.

Anyway, all this to say, I don't think anyone can teach you how to beat this dead horse of subtly (which the ENTIRE WORLD insists on abusing) back to life.  It's always seemed like something innate or instinctive to me, though I'm sure there's much better teachers around than I am.

[Delirium]

One thing I thought worth mentioning is that most people will hate what they decide to hate, and little you say is going to change their mind about it. Whether that be Tuluk, Allanak, Desert Elves, Tan Muark, Kurac, Mages, etc, etc, not everyone is going to enjoy some facet of the game that you may personally like. Whether it's a good or bad opinion you're putting forth about <insert segment here>, there will be people out there that disagree with you, and frankly, I've come to think that it's much better to just keep your mouth shut, enjoy the game, and ignore the naysayers who try to tell you that you shouldn't be having fun wherever you currently happen to be.

[Only He Stands There]

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, that was Delirium, posting directly from my thoughtstream.

(i.e. QFMFT)

[manonfire]

Image edited per request.

[Xygax]

Are the ridiculously foul language and the vastly oversized image -really- necessary?  I vote 'no'.

-- X

[Agent_137]

you'd have to know manonfire.

[Is Friday]

In my opinion the documentation is fairly cryptic in some areas about Tuluk. Speaking from a relative noobie perspective, some things like the views of slaves are hard to grasp.

It is really hard to figure stuff out when you first start.