Tuluk and the various misconceptions/stigma that surround it

[Rhyden]

Bards of the Circle are just as commonly dumbasses as the rest of the population of Tuluk.  They just as commonly misinterpret the documentation too.

I agree somewhat.

If Gim's statement about the majority of Tuluk not knowing how to properly play in its culture is true, just as many circle bards are as ignorant as commoners in Tuluk.

But I think Spawn and Gim are both overexaggerating. Tuluk's culture isn't as complex as we make it out to be and most players I've seen can play in the culture and with the rest of the culture properly if not up to 'standard'.

[Bebop]

Bards of the Circle are just as commonly dumbasses as the rest of the population of Tuluk.  They just as commonly misinterpret the documentation too.

I agree somewhat.

If Gim's statement about the majority of Tuluk not knowing how to properly play in its culture is true, just as many circle bards are as ignorant as commoners in Tuluk.

But I think Spawn and Gim are both overexaggerating. Tuluk's culture isn't as complex as we make it out to be and most players I've seen can play in the culture and with the rest of the culture properly if not up to 'standard'.

I think players can play just fine in Tuluk but it is definitely a learning experience each time.  I had been playing over a year when I had a PC rooted in Tuluk and I was amazed by all of the subtle little quirks and history Tuluk has.  I've been a Tuluk fan girl ever since.  I went from playing nothing but Nakki's to Tuluki's all the way.  There is this ever present fear in Tuluk of saying anything out of line I love it.  Anyway, as far as the intricate ways of Tuluk there are alot of them that I don't think are apparent at face value.  With my second character I took a trip to Tuluk and the way everyone nodded at everyone and talked to everyone I told James, I was like wow!  Everyone is so nice in Tuluk!  When I played my character in Tuluk a year later I was like wtf... you soon begin to realize behind all of the protocal and formalities there is just as much emotion and room for plotlines as anything else.  But I think it is is harder to get the hang of the whole mind set of thievery or assasination being an art.  I've been playing over two years and I'm just starting to be able to comprehend that mindset without REALLY thinking everyone knows these people are dirty thieves!  That's just not how it is in Tuluk, I love it.

[Malifaxis]

Personally, I think the problem with Tuluk is the players.  The people who do know what they are doing are too stuck up and high on the knowledge that they are uber to come down and teach the peons.  The people who don't know, well, don't know.

Usually, however, the people who don't know also do know that saying that they don't know is unsubtle.  They don't know how to be subtle, but they do know what being unsubtle is.  Knowing that they can't be unsubtle (or they'll get laughed at/thrown out/forced to play with bards), they try to act, subtlely, like they know what they're doing.  This, naturally, does nothing but widen the gap.

On the subject of bards:  I've seen some incredibly well played bards.  Bards who were sneakier than the slick side of Drov's black bottom.  Bards who could get you to say fifteen incriminating things over a glass of wine, just by smiling.

I haven't seen anyone play a bard like that in the last three years RL.

I have seen bards who were as subtle as a zharal stoned mekillot wearing a fifty foot, humming, purple strap on dildo on their face.  I have seen bards who do nothing 'bardic' except for post board messages about how much someone sucks because they didn't buy them a frilly Kadian cockring.

I have seen more of these than I can count.

We -do- need Tuluki lessons on how to be all clandestine.  We -do- need people who know what the fuck they're doing to pass that knowledge on instead of sitting on it like a steel egg.  The problem is that the Tuluki society, IC, is an elitist lovenest, and that attitude bleeds over to the player's concept of who should play in Tuluk and how.  By playing an elitist, they begin to become an elitist, and aren't as willing to help people outside of the Treehugger Clique.

A wise mansa once said "Be the change you want."

Well?

[Gimfalisette]

As one of the most vocal posters on the forums about my love for Tuluk and its culture, and as someone who has played a lot over the past year in high-profile roles in Tuluk, I -could- take Malifaxis' post as being directed at me...but...

I'm not going to, because I know that I'm not "elitist."

I had the privilege of beginning to play in Tuluk at the time when marko was still playing there, and he taught me a huge amount, both ICly and OOCly. He also made me ICly teach other characters things they needed to know about Tuluki culture. Along the way I took up a significant leadership role, and then I had minions and I taught them too. Some of them also asked me OOC questions about Tuluki culture, to explain things from the documentation, or things they should have known that were not in the docs.

At this point, I know that I've personally tutored at least 5 to 10 players in the details of Tuluki culture. I've also spent a lot, lot, lot of time in game embodying whichever aspect of Tuluki culture I was playing at the time. So I feel pretty confident that I'm not "elitist." To the contrary, I'm actually quite inclusive; I'd love for everyone to feel like they were included and contributing.

I've been trying to think of some helpful things I could post on this thread, especially something about "how to be convincingly subtle." But my brain hasn't been able to wrap around that yet and form full thoughts. Other than that, if anyone DOES ever have any questions about Tuluk that they think I might be able to answer, I'd be happy to try to do that by PM.

Note: This does not mean that I think I'm the perfect Tuluki roleplayer. I have made a LOT of mistakes in Tuluk over time, and there are still some things I don't do well. But after like nine months of getting my mistakes beat out of me both ICly and OOCly by the authority structures in Tuluk, I learned a lot.

[LauraMars]

I think a lot of it has to do with reputation.  If someone has a reputation of being as subtle as a mekillot stoned on zharal wearing a fifty foot purple strap on, then they will remain thus, for the rest of their days.  Nobody will take them seriously, and go around snickering at them behind their back saying, "Oh that Sexbottom Irofel, they try to be so subtle. It's embarrassing."  And possibly, Sexbottom Irofel will be called terrible names and disrespected, until Sexbottom Irofel gets killed for being annoying.  All because they tried just too damn hard.

Subtly has a lot to do with how you are perceived by everyone else.  If you're perceived as something other than you really are, that's making a start.  If you're perceived as unimportant when you're really a threat, that's also good.  If you're not perceived at all, then I would like to relay some obsidian to you, by messenger, so that you don't kill my ass.

One tactic to try is to be humble and unassuming.  Not ACT like it, but really BE it.  Know your limits and don't try to exceed them. There's nothing subtle about arrogance, and you can do a lot of damage when you're meek.

Anyway, all this to say, I don't think anyone can teach you how to beat this dead horse of subtly (which the ENTIRE WORLD insists on abusing) back to life.  It's always seemed like something innate or instinctive to me, though I'm sure there's much better teachers around than I am.

[Delirium]

One thing I thought worth mentioning is that most people will hate what they decide to hate, and little you say is going to change their mind about it. Whether that be Tuluk, Allanak, Desert Elves, Tan Muark, Kurac, Mages, etc, etc, not everyone is going to enjoy some facet of the game that you may personally like. Whether it's a good or bad opinion you're putting forth about <insert segment here>, there will be people out there that disagree with you, and frankly, I've come to think that it's much better to just keep your mouth shut, enjoy the game, and ignore the naysayers who try to tell you that you shouldn't be having fun wherever you currently happen to be.

[Only He Stands There]

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, that was Delirium, posting directly from my thoughtstream.

(i.e. QFMFT)

[manonfire]

Image edited per request.

[Xygax]

Are the ridiculously foul language and the vastly oversized image -really- necessary?  I vote 'no'.

-- X

[Agent_137]

you'd have to know manonfire.

[Is Friday]

In my opinion the documentation is fairly cryptic in some areas about Tuluk. Speaking from a relative noobie perspective, some things like the views of slaves are hard to grasp.

It is really hard to figure stuff out when you first start.