Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon.

[jhunter]

I'd quit playing magickers if this were implemented. Might even quit playing the game just for the point of the opinions of the few ruining things for the others that don't have a problem with the way things are.

[moab]

Changing the karma tree in this way won't change anything.  We have already seen that the karma tree does not prevent people from using their options.


Either special apping all magickers, some how "spending" karma when you make a karma character (or maybe some types of karma required character) or the IC learning that LoD suggested are better ideas.

[LoD]

Changing the karma tree in this way won't change anything.  We have already seen that the karma tree does not prevent people from using their options.

I'd actually disagree and say that the number of "freel muls" being played dropped significantly when the karma tree change was made.

-LoD

[jhunter]

That IC learning thing is bull. Then it makes it so that it is completely impossible to play a solo mage. You would become completely dependant upon others...one of the things that makes playing a slave character suck ass.

Apparently, LoD and some of the rest of you want -all- mages to be tightly controlled and forced into a form of slavery of some kind. Completely ruining any appeal the guilds have for some of us.

And the changing of the karma tree isn't going to solve anything. Eventually over time we will experience more players with those options again. It's only a quick fix(to what some perceive as some sort of problem), in the long term it won't change anything.

[Xygax]

I think the idea of "treeing" ungemmed mages differently in the karma heirarchy has some compelling advantages.  I don't find "if you do that, I'll quit playing them -- or maybe even quit the game!" style ultimatum to be a compelling argument either (in spite of your cool .sig, jhunter ).  What is best for the game may well not be what most appeals to every individual player.  I also tend to agree that magicker classes seem to be occurring more frequently.

Part of this, I think, has also been a tendency on the part of us as the staff to be more active in awarding karma (which I think is a good thing), and also an overall improvement in the quality of play.

From what I've seen (we have the tools to watch things like who casts a lot), there isn't a lot of the solo-mage hiding out in the desert and doing nothing but spam-casting type of play going on.  Also, the contention that a Tuluki player is bound to run into a mage on a daily basis seems wildly spurious.  But I also think that we are nearing a point (if we're not already there) where the population of magicker PCs in the game is altering its overall atmosphere.  Part of this is pendulum-swing, of course, and part of it is "Oooh, look how much work the staff is doing on magicky types....  I should play one!" that falls out from the fact that we have recently spent a lot of time coding fixes/improvements to the magick systems.

We as the staff need also to discipline ourselves to avoid RPTs and plotlines driven by magickal entities.  There is plenty of mundane mayhem to be made in our world.  And you as the players should challenge yourselves to try out the more "mundane" roles from time to time, also.  BTW, in this sense, I mean to use the word "mundane" to describe a non-magickal PC, not a boring one.  One of the most interesting and fun PCs I ever played was a pick-pocket beggar.

Hopefully this issue will be a self-policing one.  If you want to see less magick in the world, stop bringing magick into it; create non-magicky PCs.  If you don't want us to impose external limits on magicky PCs, don't make those limits a requirement (not saying they are, yet, but I admit:  my spidey-sense is tingling).

-- X

[Medena]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

:arrow: The staff have said repeatedly that the relative numbers of PC mages is not out of control.

:arrow:  Rogue magickers are not running rampant in the wilds.  A couple of months ago, I played a northlands ranger and spent a lot of time in the grasslands and other areas outside Tuluk. Magick is, to me, still a rare and mysterious thing.

:arrow: I have trust in the staff that if they see ungemmed magickers engaging in twinking up skills or other actions inappropriate or harmful to the game that they will make the appropriate remedies.

:arrow: Not everyone dashes off to app a magicker the moment they have magicker karma. I have had magicker karma for over 2 years and have yet to make one. I'm sure I am not alone in this.

[Halaster]

Your suggestion is good, in theory, but what happens once the last of the strongest of the magickers dies off? No one gets to advance without the help from a Staff member that passes on the powers to another player?

This is an important aspect to consider in a debate like this.  As staff, we have tossed around some ideas, and one of them included mages having to learn magick.  And this was the number one reason we don't want to do that.  Inevitably those "in the know" will die off and we'll be forced to re-introduce the knowledge with NPC's.  Not that that's bad, but it's not a good method to rely on.  Also, who's to say those "in the know" are even going to share their knowledge?  I'd really hate to force players to play a certain way (such as "as a mage you must share your magick!").  It would only make sense for someone with the power to withold it from others.

I do like the idea of magick having to be learned, but in practice it won't work out.  And I'm not just guessing wildly - there are a number of "secrets" in the world that continually get lost as PC's die out and we have to re-introduce them every so often.

And to be honest, the number of players who do play a mage and go sit alone in some hideaway until their spells get really high is quite uncommon.  It happens considerably less than some of you think it does.  I won't say it never happens, but it's very uncommon.  I don't think such a rare occurance warrants any sort of change to be honest.  Instead, as staff we deal with those occurances.

Now, your perspective might be that Joe Mage has been hiding away and doing that, because you don't run into Joe Mage until he's powerful.  Or maybe you did and just didn't know it before.

I'm not saying I totally disagree with all this, but rather the problem is much less severe as it's being made out to be.  At first the idea of making non-gemmed mages require 1 more karma sounded awful, but the more I think about it, the less awful it sounds.  Having said that, the potential for a gemmed mage to sit around alone and powergame their spells is equally present if not moreso.  They have temples to facilitate this, the "rogue" mages at least have to go find something (not that that's hard).  So while the idea has some merit, I don't see how it would change much.  My understanding of this argument is that people are worried about the potential for abuse.  I'm not so worried, because the way it works out is that this abuse happens very uncommonly - and those who abuse the system are dealt with, and if the situation warrants it, their karma is removed.

I wouldn't mind seeing basic mages being raised above 2 karma, but I won't lose any sleep if it stays as it is, either.

[Ghost]

And the changing of the karma tree isn't going to solve anything. Eventually over time we will experience more players with those options again.

Actually, it is a solution.  5+ karma is not in everyone's pocket.  And you don't get 5+ karma that easily.  First two, even three karma are easy.  Very easy I could say.
I might be wrong, but I do remember Vanth (I guess it was Vanth) pointing out that "Until 5 karma, you can earn by playing.  But going for 5+ you would be more likely to special app first, and prove that you can handle it to get the option of playing permanently (of what you apped)".  As I said, I might remember wrong, but I remember something along these lines.

Also, as has been already pointed out, pulling the mul option to karma 7 had solved the "Too many escaped muls" problem.  So changing the karma tree is a solution.

[Quirk]

I'm coming to like the notion of the karma tree change. It does seem the most elegant solution to the problem in the longer term.

[Jherlen]

I don't think that changing the karma tree just delays the inevitable here - it's my understanding that the staff is much more strict about awarding a 5th+ point of karma than one in the 1-4 range.

Coupled with this, you would absolutely need to give gemmed mages more options: more stuff in their own quarter, possibly some opportunities in the Labyrinth and/or secret societies of shady sewer gemmers. Give them more clans to join, besides just House Oash - I think ale six proposed in a thread a while back to create a clan based around a loose coalition of gemmed mages of all the temples, which could be an interesting thought.

There are, also, many many possibilities for mundane mischief, as Xygax said. You can get a lot of fun out of taking your unit of folks out into the desert for some mission or other - I ran a few of these RPTs in Salarr and you could just as easily do them in Kurac, the Byn, and most noble Houses, without any magickal presence at all. This of course requires people to (gasp!) join clans, though. If the clan population was higher, the mundane PCs would have more to do, encouraging more people to play mundanes in clans, which might lessen the weight of the "too many mages" problem that some people see. Food for thought.

Alternately, we could just change it so that all ungemmed mages require halfling/desert elf blood as a component to cast any spell. I like that solution a lot.  :twisted:

[Anonymous kank with wings]

That did not trigger the discussion.  What triggered this discussion is, there are too many magickers on the loose.

I believe the perception that there are too many magickers on the loose was greatly enhanced by this war.

Before that, we were largely unseen in our temples in the Elementalist's Quarter.

I don't know how many ungemmed magickers there were, but suddenly the war arises, and this topic takes on real intensity thereafterward. Before that it was a relatively small number of complaints about magickers sitting in taverns.

[Naiona]

First let me preface this post by saying - my opinion is not the official view of the staff.  In fact, my opinion is a minority opinion on this subject, but one I have held for some time now.  Again, please do NOT take anything said here as policy or the official staff view.

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While I do not think that this issue has reached the crisis proportions hinted at in many posts here, I also do not think it is non-existent, as other posts imply.  

We can help as staff by making it more appealing to play a mundane, basic PC.  This is in fact a large part of my motivation for volunteering to staff the Byn.  I am hoping that the changes to the northern structure will help with this as well.  Players like to play what is fun and is involved with frightening and whirlwind plot twists.  The staff is aware of this and I think you'll see more mundane plots in the coming months.

As players, you can help by looking at Armageddon as a communal project to which we all have a responsibility.  Switch it up.  Play a ranger or a tailor or even a street beggar from time to time.  Let yourself enjoy the gritty world as one of its mundane inhabitants.  If you save the karma roles for a special treat for yourself..guess what, they'll seem special.

We do control our own gaming world by how we treat it.   Acting as concerned members of the gaming community, we can bring back some of the sense of mystery and awe that magick use should inspire.  But, to do so those of you who like playing magick users the most have to take responsibility and mix it up with the mundane type roles.  We ask you not to play in the same clan twice in a row.  We ask you not to make the same friends over and over.  I don't think it is too much to ask you to pay attention to the character guild choices that you make and how they fit into the game world as it goes along.

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Once again - the opinions in this post were my own and do NOT represent the staff as a whole
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[Hot_Dancer]

:arrow: The number of PC magickers is not out of control.
 
I agree with this statement.

:arrow: Rogue magickers are not running rampant in the wilds. A couple of months ago, I played a northlands ranger and spent a lot of time in the grasslands and other areas outside Tuluk. Magick is, to me, still a rare and mysterious thing.

I do not agree with this statement. I've had characters off and on in the northern wilderness for the past few years and I think 'Rogue' magickers are running rampant. A character without magical ability (known to be massively inferior to one with magick) isn't going to be able to reasonably involve themselves with the plot lines of those magical. It's blatantly suicidal and their impact on the event is hardly ever going to be worth the risk. What can actually challenge a magicker's abilities is going to step on a common PC like sand.

I'm totally for these magickers being given more flexible outlets of play so they don't routinely gather to dominate the less sorceror-king protected areas.

Hot Dancer

[moab]

A character without magical ability (known to be massively inferior to one with magick) isn't going to be able to reasonably involve themselves with the plot lines of those magical. It's blatantly suicidal and their impact on the event is hardly ever going to be worth the risk. What can actually challenge a magicker's abilities is going to step on a common PC like sand.

This is untrue.

Magickers have plenty of weaknesses that prevent them from doing many things and need mundane pcs to accomplish these things - which gives the mundane pcs a great deal of plot control and power.

[spawnloser]

Hot_Dancer, I think you're wrong.  I've played a few magickers, and a lot of them are fairly weak in some ways...you may just be coming across the inordinately powerful, or frequenting the same spots where (as others have said) those magickers are going to go (and you know it) because they need some seclusion in the north to practice, since they start out with very little ability to defend themselves.

[Angela Christine]

Here is the current karma chart, in case anyone isn't sure:

Levels of karma:
Number  Options
1 karma  desert elf
2 karma  water and stone elementalist
3 karma  half giant
4 karma  wind and fire elementalist
5 karma  lightning and shadow elementalist
6 karma  void elementalist
7 karma  mul
8 karma  psi and sorcerer

You can only tinker with the karma tree so much before it gets silly.  There has to be something at level 1, something at level 2, something at level 3, and so on.  I suppose you could break up the paired elementalist levels.  If you made it so that there was only one new thing at each level it might look something like:

1. Desert elf
2. Stone elementalist
3. Half-giant
4. water elementalist
5. wind elementalist
6. fire elementalist
7. mul
8. shadow elementalist
9. lightning elementalist
10. void elementalist
11. Psionicist
12. Sorcerer

Or possible oust them from #2 altogether by replacing them with halflings.

1. Desert elf
2. Halfling
3. Half-giant
4. water elementalist
5. Stone elementalist
6. wind elementalist
7. fire elementalist
8. mul
9. shadow elementalist
10. lightning elementalist
11. void elementalist
12. Psionicist
13. Sorcerer

But that would really just delay the problem, in a few more years it would be back.


Any karma tinkering will also have the problem that while it makes the rarest types even more rare, it doesn't make the most common types much rarer.  Are people really having a problem with lightning and void elementalists popping up behind every tree?


Leaving gemmed where they are but moving ungemmed?  I don't know, that seems awkward to me.  Gemmed are in a much better position to spam cast spells to a dangerous level.  

Gemmed are also restricted from assuming (or continuing) peaceful roles as traders, smugglers, hunters and grebbers.  Magick isn't your whole life, it's just a birth defect.  Unless you have displayed magickal talent since childhood you probably had another career, and subguilds represent this somewhat.  Since it is much harder to get work as a mage than the docs would indicate, you have to do something to make money.  But unless you can turn invisible a gemmed can run into trouble even doing very simple things like mining obsidian within a few rooms of Allanak, because the gem as seen as a flashing neon sign that says "I'm a magicker, please kill me!" pointed at your head.  Tuluk is, of course, right out of the question, but so is most of the rest of the world.  It is deliciously ironic that there are magicks that appear to make it easier to travel, but the gem renders it almost impossible to do so.



I've never tried to play an agressive rogue mage myself, but I can see why people do it.  They do it because "agressive rogue mage" is the most defined role available.  What are your options:

1. Oash Pet.  Ok, not just Oash, sometimes the other Houses or a Templar will hire a mage or two.  This apparently involves dressing up in a livery, and then . . . mostly just hanging around.  It ends up looking like a variation on "aide".  The other House employees still don't want much to do with you.  Gemmed.

2.   Sparkly Scavenger.  You make a living foraging for salt or mining obsidian by day, and by night you retreat to your Temple or room to cast until bed time.  Gemmed or ungemmed.


3.  Secret mage/second-rate merchant.  You try to find a role that doesn't require skills, and then sneak off to cast now and then when you get the chance.  Ungemmed.


4.  Aggressive rogue mage.  Basically a variation on "raider".   Wander around, cause trouble, die.  

I think part of the reason that elementalists aren't mysterious and scary is because there is basically nothing for them to do, so they end up milling around and hanging out in taverns.  I don't think we should go back to the bad old days when halfling sorcerers would cast spells in taverns and nobody batted an eye, but I think the social restrictions on known elementalists have gone too far in the other direction.  Not everywhere, but at least in Allanak it would be nice if elementalists (not sorcerers) were tolerated enough that they could get jobs with most of the active clans, jobs as mages, working with the other members of the clan.  There are hundreds, probably thousands of gemmed elementalists in Allanak, they can't all work for Oash and there is no welfare, so where are they working?  I'd like to see professional hunters or mercenaries taking on a stone elementalist to help protect them during a big job, if I was going to hunt mekillots I'd want every advantage I could get.  Who wouldn't want a water elementalist on the payroll to keep the water barrel topped up?  It would be great if there were provisions in Allanak for Elementalists to be productive members of society every day, and not merely kept as the Highlord's reserve troops in case of war or emergency.  


Keep Tuluk a bunch of paranoid magiphobes, but open up Allanak a little.



Angela Christine

[Delirium]

I completely agree with Angela Christine.

[LoD]

If you made it so that there was only one new thing at each level it might look something like:

1. Desert elf
2. Stone elementalist
3. Half-giant
4. water elementalist
5. wind elementalist
6. fire elementalist
7. mul
8. shadow elementalist
9. lightning elementalist
10. void elementalist
11. Psionicist
12. Sorcerer

I think Ghost's suggestion was something more like this:

1 - Desert Elf
2 - Stone and Water Elementalist (Gemmed)
3 - Half Giant
4 - Wind and Fire Elementalist (Gemmed)
5 - Lightning and Shadow Elementalist (Gemmed)
6 - Void, Stone, Water, Wind, Fire, Lightning and Shadow Elementalist (Ungemmed)
7 - Mul
8 - Psi and Sorcerer

If you didn't have 6 karma, you could special app a rogue mage.

The karma tinkering controls the distribution of elementalists in the game with more realism, though I would only advocate such a thing if both the Elemental Quarter and the Gemmed of Allanak were given more consideration and direction.  I've always enjoyed the prospect of each temple having its own mini-culture, and many of the gemmed being used to locate and capture or destroy opposing magickal beings in the rest of the game.

I completely agree with AC's desire to see Gemmed mages able to use their abilities more often in society, especially the helpful abilities.  Merchants Houses, small groups, many people could make great use of an elementalists skills to help and further their work if it was in any way socially acceptable.

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

I, as well agree with AC. Especially the part about the gem being a kill-me sign. It is a bad thing. It isn't a sign that says "don't attack me or I'll post on the GDB that you aren't afraid enough of magickers."  :wink:

[Lazloth]

If you didn't have 6 karma, you could special app a rogue mage.

And you roll-up various other (non-Naki/Tuluki) cultures as rogue?   The gemmed become a newbie school for people wanting to explore magick?  I don't think the model Ghost presents does anything other than polarize and segregate first-timers and non-, and that will be a failing.

If the feeling is that the world does not have enough outlet roles for elementalists other than Naki pets or raiders, perhaps helping facilitate that change (ingame), rather than limiting numbers (out of game), makes more sense?

[Armaddict]

How did I know that all this would end up with 'make mages more accepted now'?

Make that happen IC'ly.  Going against things as they are.  Not ushered in.  Have it make sense.

[Delirium]

In Allanak only.  Tuluk would not change.

I, for one, have felt that gemmed need more places in Allanaki culture ever since I tried the role.

Let's not get all reactionary and alarmist here.

[Ghost]

Leaving gemmed where they are but moving ungemmed? I don't know, that seems awkward to me. Gemmed are in a much better position to spam cast spells to a dangerous level.

But then, as Xygax pointed out, there are coded ways to control and restrict the use of the spam cast spells.  So it would not be like a child with a nuclear bomb.  

Gemmed are also restricted from assuming (or continuing) peaceful roles as traders, smugglers, hunters and grebbers. Magick isn't your whole life, it's just a birth defect. Unless you have displayed magickal talent since childhood you probably had another career, and subguilds represent this somewhat. Since it is much harder to get work as a mage than the docs would indicate, you have to do something to make money.

Drawing the ungemmed to a higher karma level will increase the number of gemmed.  And thus will increase the interaction in the city among the gemmed.  That would be a first start.
Secondly, consider if the magicker concentration was mostly in  Allanak.  Now it would make sense to put a bar in Elementalist Quarter.  As well as, it would also make sense to be able to find more things to do for gemmed.  There was a time there were like 13 gemmed in Allanak.  I could have sworn like 10 of them had active jobs.  The others, were applying for jobs and were getting it (nearly) before I lost my char and could see what happened.
Also being a gemmed is not always being an aide or a pet.  Gemmed can be spy/assassin/traveler.  I have seen all, though I was not the one wearing the gem.  Sure, the obvious job is Oash, or maybe templarate.  The same way, the obvious job for a ranger is guiding people through the desert, and selling hides.  For a merchant joining Salarr or Kadius, for a shady to join the Guild.

Being shunned from the Houses or public does not mean being alone and having nothing to do.  Gemmed firstly, have templarate, other gemmed, and people somehow mastered (or suppressed) their fear against magick.  That said, gemmed do not have much need for coins anyway.  Without going too much IC details, lets just say some magickers can be self sufficient.
Also saying gemmed do not have anything else other than joining House Oash, or templarate is not a counterpoint, considering muls are restricted to play as a slave (restriction) or stay away from civilisation and in the desert.  Not only that, they also have the restriction of the anger/hatred/mixing feelings.

Anyway... It is getting long, but my point is, drawing the nongemmed karma up in the tree will make the number of gemmed go up.  And it would bring interaction for the gemmed magickers.  It will also lessen the non-gemmed rogue magickers, so seeing an unleashed magicker in the wilds will not be something so common.

[Armaddict]

Don't become alarmed?  You want to make changes to the culture of the game for purely ooc reasons.

Yes.  Mages are restricted in their roles.  They always have been.  Why do you think so many of them are supposed to end up -evil-?!

[Intrepid]

I agree with AC about Allanak society having overdeveloped its behavior toward elementalists.  Being a gemmer sucks at the moment, quite frankly.  The funny thing is, there are all these assumptions going around as to how good any magicker has it, so let me see if I can illustrate what being a gemmer is like:

- Make pc, head in.  Stats suck.  Oh well.
- Go to tavern.  Everyone seems nice once they see my newbie clothing.
- Look for templar.  Ask around.  People ask why.  Tell them I'm a mage.
- Flee tavern after numerous death threats.  Help files say tolerance, not homicide.
- Find templar.  Templar gives me shit for existing.  Slaps gem on me.
- Stagger away from templar after being nearly killed.  Hide in temple.
- Oash mage tells me how cool Oash is.  Finally, a bone!  Try to join.
- Oash noble is not around.
- No, still not around.
- No, still not around.  Starting sid almost gone.  Should have made Rukkian.
- Nearly die trying to visit the tavern again.  Byn suck.
- Nearly die trying to mine sid...and not because of scrab.  Hunters suck.
- Flee back to city from scrab AND hunters.  Still no sid.  Stats suck too.
- Oash noble gives me shit for not being around, despite never having logged out.
- Oash noble will not hire me because I may be a half-elf.  Flee from other mages.
- Find templar and beg for food.  Templar laughs in my face.
- Find another templar and beg for food.  Templars laughs and gives me food.
- Promise to give templar my first born.
- Other templar is pissed at me and vows revenge because I exist.
- Start planning rogue magicker because Allanaki society is overdone.
- Still cannot find in helpfiles where "tolerance" was confused for "homicide".