Magick - Power and Place in Armageddon.

[marko]

As the game matures more people will get karma.  Tinkering with the karma tree simply puts off the need to fix the situation by a year or two years.

I tend to believe that the majority players are honest, mature, and play well.  Because of this they accumulate karma as they play.  So as time marches on - more and more people gain the karma to play magickers.

Out of these people a few will constantly play magicker roles; the majority will give them a try and then alternate between magicker and mundane roles; and a few won't even try a magicker or play one and stop playing them.  Bell curves are fun.  

I think we will see more and more magickers as time progresses if nothing changes - simply because more and more people have the option of playing them.  I don't believe this is a trend that will stop.  

In terms of solutions I'm leaning towards a point-buy system combined with our current karma system.  The karma determines what you can potentially play and the points determine if you can "buy" the role.  Points would accumulate just like karma.  Points would cap out at your karma level (so in essence you are proving that you can play the role each time you make a karma role).

I'm not sure if it is a truly elegant solution though.  I don't like automatic time-based regeneration of karma - in fact, I don't like any automatic system.

[Xygax]

Wow, I have to say I think Intrepid's experience of being a gemmed mage is relatively unique.  I have played long-lived gemmed mages in Allanak on a couple of occasions, neither ended up in the employ of Oash, and neither had trouble with funds.  One was a Vivaduan and one was a Krathi.  Also, I found ways in both cases to make myself useful to templars (while occasionally the "uses" weren't probably fun for my PC, the play was fun -- if creepy, occasionally -- for me).

-- X

[ale six]

The one mage I've played was a gemmer (although she didn't start out that way, I was hoping to play an ungemmed rinthi mage and got caught.)

I actually found the role pretty fun - but being a vivaduan may give you more chances for interaction than others. Lots of times I could sit downstairs in the viv temple and people would walk in wanting water, healing, etc. My little rinthi girl who I had intended to keep starving around the poverty line was suddenly making money hand over fist.

Your mileage may vary, though, and one thing I definitely noticed is that when playing a gemmer, your options for employment are basically Oash, or templars. Templars often seemed to want to use primarily Oashi mages anyway... which made things hard for my poor little breed.

I would love to see more options opened up for gemmed mages in Allanak that aren't "Join Oash or become somebody else's pet." Whether or not we tinker with the karma tree, giving gemmers more options might make more people play gemmers, which would help with the "rogue mage" problem if people think there is one.

[Armaddict]

might make more people play gemmers,

Please god NO.

[Guido]

Please god NO.

As opposed to rogues - not a flood of new Magickers.

[Armaddict]

I...really don't care whether they're rogue or not.

In my opinion...rogue is completely justified.  Hence why the gems exist in the first place.  Allanak allows you to live there, with a gem, so that they can keep tabs and have some control over you, and use you as needed.

Some mages will recognize their 'superiority' and choose not to be such a tool.  They will be a rogue.  They will be evil.

This is all arising because more people want to play accepted mages who can have steady interaction and have fun in the way they do with their mundanes.  But these restrictions are PART of the role of a mage, due to the culture that you now want to change to accomodate.

I want to play a mindbender.  I've even tried to see if there were ways to make it more accepted.  But that's not going to happen, is it?  The same goes for mages.  If you want to interact freely with people and have open choices for what you do...hide it.  This is no different from any other hated role.

[Intrepid]

Wow, I have to say I think Intrepid's experience of being a gemmed mage is relatively unique.  I have played long-lived gemmed mages in Allanak on a couple of occasions, neither ended up in the employ of Oash, and neither had trouble with funds.  One was a Vivaduan and one was a Krathi.  Also, I found ways in both cases to make myself useful to templars (while occasionally the "uses" weren't probably fun for my PC, the play was fun -- if creepy, occasionally -- for me).

You're right.  The above post was more of a synopsis of multiple experiences to get the point across.  However, over half those experiences did happen to my last Vivaduan, and while she was considered useful to the templars, they wanted to use her without any regard for her pocketbook.  And hence, that pc, whose only goal was to get nifty tattoos, was generally alone and mostly without sid.

My main point to all of this is simple: Players overportray the setting.  I understand why, since you have to appear to be playing within the guidelines, and nothing screams this better than overdoing it.  However, the game has suffered for it, in my opinion, because we've done this to the opposite end of extremes from back in the day when we were trying to escape the kank-riding elves.  It's now just as illogical as it was back then, but for the exact opposite situations.

- With every applicable character, there is always someone who is from Allanak unable to resist threatening to kill my magicker pc for just sitting in a tavern.
- With every applicable character, some Oash got his panties in a wad because I either looked like I could have been part elf or I was part elf--even in cases where I didn't approach this individual, I might add.
- With every magicker, Oash or Darth Templar were my only options for work as a gemmer--and neither group could resist acting like asses, quite frankly.

The truth is, LoD is wrong.  You don't make a rogue magicker to avoid interaction with the game.  You make a rogue magicker in order to ensure you can interact with the game without someone thinking it's ok to take a crap on you or just kill you outright because you looked in their general direction.  For most places it's ok, but for Allanak?  Come on, folks.  Let's develop some actual sense of society and ask ourselves why the magicker was even able to make it to the tavern in one piece in the first place; if the npcs aren't going out of their way to threaten a mage, why are you?

Unless this changes, I will be content with playing a rogue magicker every other character.  These experiences are not unique.  It's just that no one is bringing them up.

[Jherlen]

I wouldn't mind more mages, either of the gemmed or the secret variety. I think those have many more opportunities than the "I am the evil raider rogue mage! RAR!!" variety - though I don't mind any of them if they're played well.

STILL disagree with the idea that making the options higher karma will "delay" the problem. There are always going to be more 2-karma players than 4-6 karma players, as long as the game keeps growing. If we maintain a steady growth rate, then the ratio of people who can play rogue magickers to those who can't will always be smaller if we bump the options higher up the tree.

edit: because I don't feel like posting on top of myself...

Rogue mages do NOT necessarily have to be "evil". Nothing about being an ungemmed mage makes them inherently any more evil than being a gemmed mage (who by the way do not need to be passive and good just because they're gemmed, either.) I don't agree with Armaddict here at all.

[Armaddict]

As I said...the evil rogue mage is completely IC.

You're just being too concerned with making the mage more playable as a part of the society itself...because you like playing mages.

Like someone who repeatedly plays sorcerers complaining about how he gets hunted down even though he helps people.

[Jherlen]

The evil rogue mage is completely IC. So is the evil gemmer.
The good gemmer is completely IC. So is the good rogue mage.

Your sorceror analogy doesn't really work. If you're trying to make the claim that mages shouldn't have any opportunities for interaction and should all be pushed away from society... I'm going to disagree with you absolutely and completely. The view that mages can either be tamed, submissive tools of Allanak or evil bogeymen of the deserts seems incredibly narrow.

[Delirium]

You're just being too concerned with making the mage more playable as a part of the society itself...because you like playing mages.

Actually, that's wrong, and also a bit offensive.  My favorite and most long-lived characters were all mundane classes.  I have played a total of three (relatively short-lived) mages in three years.

Don't become alarmed?  You want to make changes to the culture of the game for purely ooc reasons.

Sometimes playability trumps "culture".  A lot of people seem fixed on the idea that PCs can do nothing but loathe mages, south or north.  In actuality, mages are supposed to have a viable, if very low, place in Allanaki society.  It would not be much of a stretch at all to open up more and flexible roles for gemmed mages in Allanak.  Meanwhile, from the impression I have gotten, the way people generally act ingame is far more harsh and difficult to deal with than the helpfiles and documentation indicate.

Instead of a nice grey area between "acceptance" and "hatred", you have this sense of "never get along with a mage as a mundane, or you're a bad roleplayer!" going around, with the very rare few who will give you the time of day.  I personally think that's ridiculous, and it doesn't give mages many options other than to be evil.  Forcing nearly all mages into an "evil" mindset is precisely the problem.  You should not have to be a baby-eating, soul-sucking, hate-filled ball of wrath to play a successful mage in Armageddon.

My experience as a gemmed went something like this:

- Get gemmed, work out a schedule of practice and downtime
- Meet a couple other gemmed mages.  Awesome.
- Other mages rarely log in.  Get bullied around by a templar.
- Get bored of the routine of grebbing, casting, and being utterly ignored by mundane PCs.  Being snubbed ICly is fine, having your existance entirely unacknowledged is hell.
- Start seeking a job.  Told to get lost by templar.
- Get offered a job by noble.  Ponder it, then get told they don't want <my mage class>.  Fark.
- Meet a criminal that's actually willing to socialize with me!  Yay!
-  Fuck around with some spells and stumble on Something Cool (tm).
- Get told that succeeding at Something Cool (tm) is actually a bug.  Oops.
- Suffer IC consequences of trying to fuck around with Something Cool (tm) that briefly renews my enjoyment of the character.
- Criminal guy never logs in or is dead.  Damn.
- Get so incredibly bored and starved for interaction that I decide my character is going to strike out for sandier pastures due to IC consequences of Something Cool (tm).
- Driven out of the city by lack of interaction and options, it doesn't take me log to meet my fate at the hands of NPC #98135.
- Say "Damn, that sucked" and roll up a mundane character.
- Start having fun again.


There needs to be more option for interaction and employment for a gemmed mage in Allanak, or the role will continue to be a drag for all but the most dedicated (and lucky enough to actually find a niche or play during a time when there are plenty of other gemmed).  I do not think my experience, or Intrepid's experience, is as rare as a few people seem to think.  As I hopefully illustrated, I did my best to roll with things, create interaction, and find something To Do, but in general, failed miserably.

[Xygax]

Yeah, ideally there should be more things for players of mages to do that don't so much involve interaction with non-mages.

-- X

[Armaddict]

The good gemmer is completely IC. So is the good rogue mage.

Yes, but that does not mean that they are recognized as 'good' or going to inevitably become more accepted.

And no, the sorcerer analogy still applies.  The point of is not that mages are like sorcerers.  The point of it is that you are arguing against the way the role is and always has been due to deepset, existing cultural biases.  Just because you -love- the spells, the spell-casting system, and the way things work does not mean we need to make changes so that people can play them more in a setting they can be more comfortable in.

It -is- part of the role.  Play with it, or don't play it, or work with every character to try to change it.  Sometimes...you do well enough to make an impact.  But don't come talking about it on the GDB saying 'this needs to change' just because, as it has always been, you can do things that benefit people and so they -must- see that and start accepting you more.  Don't come and talk about how the role is too restricted and should be changed so that the role becomes more enjoyable for how you want your mage to be able to be played.

Take the role it plays, and play it.

[Armaddict]

Sometimes playability trumps "culture".

Not so.  Which is why this game is unique from most others.

[Armaddict]

Yeah, ideally there should be more things for players of mages to do that don't so much involve interaction with non-mages.

I think if they actually stayed in their quarter, in some of the places that have been set up there, and actually worked with other mages to try and have things occur in that quarter...with the current number of mages, there would be plenty to do, talk about, or work on.

Not saying it can't be improved to be even better...but resources are not so scarce right now, it's just that almost all magickers are pushing for 'fitting in' with everyone else rather than grouping together.

[Malken]

Uhh.. Not every rogue magickers go rogue because they want to be evil, far from it..

One of the reason I prefer to play rogue magickers is because I don't want to be trapped in Allanak.

Another reason, its because I don't want to be seen as just a magicker, I want to be able to play other roles as well, such as a merchant, a bard, a con artist, etc..

I have absolutly no interest in being 'evil' and casting my deadly spells on poor rangers and hunters that dare step near my evil cave.

But I have much interest in being able to play a social role, like someone said, to play my magicker the way I play my mundane characters, which is impossible in a way if I'm gemmed.

So, once more, let me repeat this.. Not every ungemmed magickers is out to make your life miserable and kill your characters. Most of the time, we want to be left alone, just as much as you want to be left alone.

[Armaddict]

Exactly Malken.

That is why it IS IC for people to not be a gemmed magicker in Allanak.  But people go there...because they want the interaction while playing a mage.  But, it seems that now that they have interaction...they now want a certain -kind- of interaction.  And now, when they live in a city where things are available...they want the means provided.  Ignore the fact that mages have lived, breathed, and been successful in allanak forever.  Now that there are so many more being played, we need more jobs available, and more 'fitting in' allowed.

However...from a purely IC standpoint...it seems logical to assume that some...perhaps even a pretty good amount...would rather leave and be a 'rogue magicker' instead of dealing with what they must there, right?

Edited once.

[Delirium]

Armaddict:

Read my entire post, please.  

If you want an Armageddon where everyone hates everyone too much to interact, then we definitely want to play two very different Armageddons.  Yes, playability does trump culture, if that culture is one so fueled with racism and hatred that we have to feel like bad roleplayers for ever interacting with (note I did not say "be buddy-buddy with") anyone magickal or otherwise taboo. The current culture IN ALLANAK is not documented to be as intolerant of mages as you seem to claim.

As well, I have never said that mages should be accepted, I said they should have more viable places in Allanaki society.

Please take the time to think through what has been said before knee-jerk responses.

[amish overlord]

Yeah, ideally there should be more things for players of mages to do that don't so much involve interaction with non-mages.

I think if they actually stayed in their quarter, in some of the places that have been set up there, and actually worked with other mages to try and have things occur in that quarter...with the current number of mages, there would be plenty to do, talk about, or work on.

Not saying it can't be improved to be even better...but resources are not so scarce right now, it's just that almost all magickers are pushing for 'fitting in' with everyone else rather than grouping together.

The quarter i think could be improved for this, like a drinking place, where is a mage who likes to get drunk suppose to go currently? Yes, prehaps with population can interact but if want to play a drunk magicker as example a bit limited.

Amish Overlord  

[Xygax]

However...from a purely IC standpoint...it seems logical to assume that some...perhaps even a pretty good amount...would rather leave and be a 'rogue magicker' instead of dealing with what they must there, right?

Actually, I think the lower-risk path is more ICly attractive, personally.  And remaining gemmed and under-the-radar in Allanak is lower risk than being a rogue mage concealing yourself in the wilderness.

-- X

[Jherlen]

There's a massive amount of weight in this thread from very experienced players saying that mages as they are could be given more options and be made more playable. I have not once seen anyone saying they want mages to be more playable because they love the spell system and want an easier time for their mages. You really are putting words in peoples' mouths to a rather offensive degree, Armaddict.

[Armaddict]

Mmmkay.

So...Delirium...explain why in a clan I recently played in, I -tried- to hire mages and was told by a clan immortal that such would be degrading to the name of the clan?

This is the attitude in a variety of places.  I'm not overexaggerating...dealing with mages is risky business that most will not deal with.

This is not playability period.  This is not interaction.  This is you wanting to play a certain role without the drawbacks involved.  You are -free- to get all the interaction you like.  You are -free- to try to hide what gives you those drawbacks.  All are fun ways to role-play.

But you can't say 'change this about the game because I don't like how it affects this one type of character I want to play'.  Otherwise this game will have documentation switching around all over whenever there's a gripe about not as much interaction or fun as a role can -potentially- have if it's removed.

[Armaddict]

Actually, I think the lower-risk path is more ICly attractive, personally. And remaining gemmed and under-the-radar in Allanak is lower risk than being a rogue mage concealing yourself in the wilderness.

Will all of them see it as lower risk?  Will all of them think it's worth it?

[Xygax]

Not saying it can't be improved to be even better...but resources are not so scarce right now, it's just that almost all magickers are pushing for 'fitting in' with everyone else rather than grouping together.

You've been making some unfair remarks.  This isn't simply an issue of magicker players OOCly wanting to be in a situation where they "fit in" better, and most of the mages I have watched have been RPing in a manner that suggests they respect the cultural gap that separates them from mundane society.

What I and others (including LoD) are saying here is that we might widen that gap even more by giving mages another direction to go in, giving them goals and conflicts that put them still more at-odds with mundane players, while also providing them more "fun" stuff to do.  If people want to offer suggestions along these lines, those are the suggestions I personally am more interested in seeing implemented (or going off and implementing, myself).

-- X

[Xygax]

Will all of them see it as lower risk?  Will all of them think it's worth it?

Certainly not all of them will see it as lower-risk.  Surely even idiots are occasionally born with magickal ability.  The simple fact is, it IS lower-risk from a purely statistical standpoint, both in terms of the VNPC population AND in terms of the PC population.  And yes, most people think not-dying is worth anything and everything, even slavery (which some people have suggested being a gemmed mage is -- that hasn't been my experience).

-- X